Who did Prophet Ibraham tried to sacrifice, Ismael or Isacc, according to Quran?

Soof

Peace

I thought the first 5 books of the Old Testament was the apparent Torah. The Tanakh is the Torah along with the Nevi'im. The Jewish Bible. Not the Torah.

No you are ignoring what I am saying. I am saying God does not err nor does he forget (2237) So he would NOT order Abraham to do something that is clearly against his teachings. Unless God forgot what He was saying. God says that the vision was a test as is EVERYTHING in life. That is what is directly in the Qur'an

How do you know that is what God meant by the word when it is used in other ways, when other translators fluent in Arabic use SLAUGHTER (as I have shown you)? This now sounds like your own opinion/understanding. Which I respect, but what makes you say that the interpretation as sacrifice is the correct one when there is NOTHING in the Qur'an that is pro-sacrifice at all, there is not even a context for you to say God uses sacrifices in this sense in the Qur'an so we can argue He can mean it here. God does not guide us to sacrifice. The only way to forgiveness is to mend our ways and repent. Not to sacrifice, so sacrifice being used in this parable is not true to the Qur'an. Abraham was going to Slaughter his son.

Satan can deceive you. In many ways that are beyond your knowledge. Note God does not say all the ways in which Satan can deceive. God gave satan leave to try and misguide human beings, BUT the obedient servants will not be misguided (hence why God intervened for Abraham). How can you say "sacrifice your son" is guidance to light when God tells us it is incorrect to sacrifice/kill/slaughter offspring? interesting.

"To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan."

You do know that the word Wafadaynahu is only used once in the Qur'an, does that also mean you have not seen it used to refer to ransom anywhere in the Qur'an? So how do you understand it then? Explicitly it is not said that the vision is from Satan, but because the vision is NOT akin with the Guidance of God AND God does not contradict/lead us to do evil/is evil then the vision must be from another source e.g a Shaytan.

"I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word."

What are you talking about? The point I was saying is several translations say SACRFICE, several say SLAUGHTER...why?

"Thats what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his Gods visions no matter what the commandment is?

Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.

The deed was never meant to be carried through

why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened."

Before all else, lets not forget Abraham was a MAN and he was FALLIBLE and susceptible to mistakes/misguidance as was Muhammad (who is even chastised in the Qur'an!). If Abraham obeyed the infallible God unquestionably, He would not be lead astray. God says if you turn to Him, you will be guided. If you turn away you will be lead astray. So why would God give Abraham incorrect guidance when he is devoted to Him? Through your points you are saying that God can change his ways and command evil, when He says specifically you will find no change in God's ways, he commands good, he urges all mankind and Jinn to strive for the Garden, therefore there would be no change in these righteous commands. 4823

"All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.

The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture."

I cannot read the Torah because it has been corrupted, it is not even alleged by Jews to be the ORIGINAL from Moses' time. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Moses had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) in 6 BC during the Babylonian Era... Why should I read the Torah when the Qur'an is the DIFFERENTIATOR, it tells us what is fabrication and what is the Truth and it is also complete guidance for us now. Why should I read the Torah when the story of Abraham is in the Qur'an in sufficient detail, is the Qur'an not sufficient for those devoted to God anymore?

Peace

unknownuser

Peace

I thought the first 5 books of the Old Testament was the apparent Torah. The Tanakh is the Torah along with the Nevi'im. The Jewish Bible. Not the Torah.

Yes, but there are places where I refer to the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT and others just the five books of Torah. Besides what does it matter the story is in Genesis which is included no matter any of the above names used.

No you are ignoring what I am saying. I am saying God does not err nor does he forget (2237) So he would NOT order Abraham to do something that is clearly against his teachings. Unless God forgot what He was saying. God says that the vision was a test as is EVERYTHING in life. That is what is directly in the Qur'an

I'm not ignoring you. No, God does not forget. But I already went in depth with this explaination.

How do you know that is what God meant by the word when it is used in other ways, when other translators fluent in Arabic use SLAUGHTER (as I have shown you)?

Use Slaughter or sacrafice. IT is the same thing. Why do I say that? Because a slaughter is to kill something. Does this apply? YES
A sacrafice is a killing for God. Does this apply? YES
Abraham recieved a vision from God as to what to slaughter.

This now sounds like your own opinion/understanding. Which I respect, but what makes you say that the interpretation as sacrifice is the correct one when there is NOTHING in the Qur'an that is pro-sacrifice at all, there is not even a context for you to say God uses sacrifices in this sense in the Qur'an so we can argue He can mean it here. God does not guide us to sacrifice. The only way to forgiveness is to mend our ways and repent. Not to sacrifice, so sacrifice being used in this parable is not true to the Qur'an. Abraham was going to Slaughter his son.

What is the problem with the word sacrafice? Use the word Kill/slaughter instead. It is the same meaning.

here is the definition of sacrifice

1 an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially the killing of a victim on an altar

2 something offered in sacrifice

3 a destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>

Satan can deceive you. In many ways that are beyond your knowledge. Note God does not say all the ways in which Satan can deceive. God gave satan leave to try and misguide human beings, BUT the obedient servants will not be misguided (hence why God intervened for Abraham). How can you say "sacrifice your son" is guidance to light when God tells us it is incorrect to sacrifice/kill/slaughter offspring? interesting.

I'm not saying that to sacrifice a child is a guidance towards light. Don't be ridiculous. I already explained that it was A TEST given specifically to ABRAHAM.

"To be more specific The root ara is also used in 4029, 848, 1243, 1184, 843 And it refers to visions that Prophets had. I have not seen it used in a sense that was deceptive. In other words, I have not seen it used referring to "false" visions or "visions" from Shaitan."

You do know that the word Wafadaynahu is only used once in the Qur'an, does that also mean you have not seen it used to refer to ransom anywhere in the Qur'an? So how do you understand it then?

Because I also understand Hebrew and Aramaic in addition to Arabic and the ROOT is the SAME in All three languages.

Explicitly it is not said that the vision is from Satan, but because the vision is NOT akin with the Guidance of God AND God does not contradict/lead us to do evil/is evil then the vision must be from another source e.g a Shaytan.

Again, it was a test....simply a test....

"I would imagine the assumption is made that if you read the first verse it would lead you to the next and therefore there is no need to repeat the word."

What are you talking about? The point I was saying is several translations say SACRFICE, several say SLAUGHTER...why?

So, now you are asking me to explain to you why different translators, whom I have never met are translating the word differently? How in the world can I answer that?

"That?s what made it a test.
Does he (Abraham) obey God unquestionably?
Does he bow COMPLETELY to his will?
Does he TRUST his God?s visions no matter what the commandment is?

Remember that by this time, Abraham was very used to having visions, revelations etc by God. So, he ABSOLUTELY knew that it was God telling him what to do in his vision.
The test, therefore, was would he do ANYTHING that God asked, even kill his own son.

The deed was never meant to be carried through

why do I say that? Because if God had meant for it to be carried through it would have happened."

Before all else, lets not forget Abraham was a MAN and he was FALLIBLE and susceptible to mistakes/misguidance as was Muhammad (who is even chastised in the Qur'an!).

Of course Abraham was just flesh and blood. I'm not trying to say otherwise.

If Abraham obeyed the infallible God unquestionably, He would not be lead astray. God says if you turn to Him, you will be guided. If you turn away you will be lead astray.

God Praises Abraham continuously and does not tell us that he was lead astray.....Quite the opposite.

So why would God give Abraham incorrect guidance when he is devoted to Him?

God was testing Abraham. He was not commanding evil. This was not incorrect guidance it was a test. brickwall

Through your points you are saying that God can change his ways and command evil, when He says specifically you will find no change in God's ways, he commands good, he urges all mankind and Jinn to strive for the Garden, therefore there would be no change in these righteous commands. 4823

I am absolutely NOT saying that God is changing his ways and commanding evil. NOT AT ALL.

it was a test given to Abraham. This is clear.

"All of those misunderstandings are corrected when you read the Torah in the Original language.

The misunderstandings come from having a puzzle in front of you. You are staring at one piece of the puzzle and asking what the picture is.
If you look at all the other pieces together with the piece you have You will see the whole picture."

I cannot read the Torah because it has been corrupted, it is not even alleged by Jews to be the ORIGINAL from Moses' time. The original text of the Torah, as revealed to Moses had been destroyed at the time of the sack of Bait-ul-Maqdas (Jerusalem) in 6 BC during the Babylonian Era... Why should I read the Torah when the Qur'an is the DIFFERENTIATOR, it tells us what is fabrication and what is the Truth and it is also complete guidance for us now. Why should I read the Torah when the story of Abraham is in the Qur'an in sufficient detail, is the Qur'an not sufficient for those devoted to God anymore?

Then you disbelieve in all the verses that say to follow the Torah. Fine. You've said that.

But, you are not even believing in the Quran when IT CLEARLY says these things

Abraham recieved a VISION to slaughter his son (and visions are from Allah)
That it was a TEST from ALLAH

Salam,
Arnab

huruf

One explanation I have read of the "sacrifice" and which is supported by the bible is that Abraham had a profetic dream in which he was told that he would have to "sacrifice" his son Ismael, which according to the Bible que he did sacrifice, since he left him with his mother in the desert. The dream was meant to reassure Him that God would take care ofthe mother and the child.

On a more symbolical level, we are all told to sacrifice our children, that is our own figments and ideas of reality to God, let go of them and love and cherish and bring up only his consciousness and what He tells us is that upon doing so we well discover that in fact that there is no loss, that what we sacrificed finally was nothingness, all that is real reamins with us.

Salaam

farida

The Quran is a guidance and a mercy. It corrects mis-conceptions, reminds, discriminates between truth and falsehood and many other things. If we didn?t have the Quran we may be following Hadith, Talmud, writings of Paul and many other misguidances.
The Quran tells us what is TRUTH and what is falsehood.

We have the real Quran as well and yet many of our brethren are still following hadith, and worshipping Muhammad instead of God.

There are those who call themselves Muslim but do the most Horrible things that they were never commanded to do.
Just the same as there were those who called themselves beni Israel then and did the most horrible things.

Salam,
Arnab

Salaam Arnab

I am so pleased to read the valuable contributions from you, In the Quran important misconceptions, like clearing Eve of responsibility for Adam's sin and rebutting the lies about Jesus. However if its not mentioned which of Abraham's sons was to be sacrifised than maybe it is to avoid discriminations between two prophets and its not important just as it was not important how many the occupants of the cave were.

2106 Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
I came across the verse below this morning and wondered what it actually meant but reading this discussion the mist cleared.

peace

unknownuser

Salaams Arnab,

Abraham received a vision from God as to what to slaughter.

What vision?

The following Ayah has been changed in the present day quran ? check out the Uzbekistan quran!!! I gave you a link already.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..

The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

Abraham refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test.

Moses was thus saved ???.and ransomed by God with a most pleasant, educational 30 years in the tyrants own backyard.

The quran is indeed clearing up the falsehood but has been misunderstood- I believe.

(My thought)
Thus Abraham Opposes Infanticide ? the slaughtering of infants ? but Moses will bring the subject up when he is fully grown and ask the tyrant, did you really do such a heinous act?

Good hunting to you.

dc2

here is a video of a jewish person's analysis of the jewish text referring to this debate...some good points.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BAwVgaip34&feature=related

unknownuser

Salaams Arnab,

What vision?

The following Ayah has been changed in the present day quran ? check out the Uzbekistan quran!!! I gave you a link already.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7503.msg68913#msg68913

37103
Wa Ma Aslama ??..? And not he submitted??..

The test or trial- read the following Ayah.
249
And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

Abraham refused to carry out the orders of a tyrant (37103) ? so Abraham passes the test.

Moses was thus saved ???.and ransomed by God with a most pleasant, educational 30 years in the tyrants own backyard.

The quran is indeed clearing up the falsehood but has been misunderstood- I believe.

(My thought)
Thus Abraham Opposes Infanticide ? the slaughtering of infants ? but Moses will bring the subject up when he is fully grown and ask the tyrant, did you really do such a heinous act?

Good hunting to you.

Simple....thats ridiculous.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

However if its not mentioned which of Abraham's sons was to be sacrifised than maybe it is to avoid discriminations between two prophets and its not important just as it was not important how many the occupants of the cave were.

Salam,

Here's an example.....lets say that someone writes a book Called "Cinderella Three" and its a continuation of the Life of Cinderella.

In this book the author writes

"Remember when Cinderella lost her shoe on the stairs.
Before the hour struck.
If she did not return she would be exposed......"

Let's say nothing else is said about the original Cinderella story in the book "Cinderella Three" except these lines.

If we did not read the Original story of Cinderella we would not know

Why Cinderella lost her shoe or Where she was when she lost her shoe. Or even if the shoe is important to the story or not.

Which hour it was or if it was day or night.

Or what was meant by the phrase "if she did not return she would be exposed."

Was she a thief, in danger of being exposed to the police? Where was she going to return to?

The phrases were only meant to remind you of the story in order to make a point about something.

Same thing as in the Quran. The Quran ASSUMES you've read previous scripture. (the Quran states this continuously)

2106 Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?
I came across the verse below this morning and wondered what it actually meant but reading this discussion the mist cleared

But the Previous scripture is not Abrogated or Forgotten.....apparently, though, it seems to be ignored.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

here is a video of a jewish person's analysis of the jewish text referring to this debate...some good points.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BAwVgaip34&feature=related

Salam dc2,

Thank you for the reference and linking the video.

Salam,
Arnab

jonny_k

Peace "arnab" and "belalhammad",
The reason why the one to be sacrificed has to be Ishmael is because Abraham had only two sons AND Isaac was BORN AFTER THE SACRIFICE EVENT ACCORDING TO QURAN. Here see

We ransomed him by substituting an animal sacrifice.
...
AND we gave him(Abraham) the good news about the birth of Isaac, to be one of the righteous prophets.

GOD Bless!

Soof

Yes, but there are places where I refer to the WHOLE OLD TESTAMENT and others just the five books of Torah. Besides what does it matter the story is in Genesis which is included no matter any of the above names used.

Sorry the "old testament" has no relevance whatsoever with the Qur'an. The Qur'an does not mention the Old Testament, it mentions the Torah. The Tanakh is NOT the same thing. And you must remember the current Torah is not the ORIGINAL Torah.

I'm not ignoring you. No, God does not forget. But I already went in depth with this explaination.

Use Slaughter or sacrafice. IT is the same thing. Why do I say that? Because a slaughter is to kill something. Does this apply? YES
A sacrafice is a killing for God. Does this apply? YES
Abraham recieved a vision from God as to what to slaughter.

No! They are very different things. Sacrifice is a killing to appease a GOD, a pagan idea still prevalent in modern day religions including Christianity. Slaughter is killing something (usually cases with animals, but can be used elsewhere). But where does it say SACRIFICE is used to appease God in the Qur'an? Nowhere. This is what it says

It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah it is your piety that reaches Him He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.
2237

I repeat there is nothing in the Qur'an that tells us to sacrifice anything for Him. There is nothing in the Qur'an to tell us to kill our children under ANY circumstances whether it is sacrifice or slaughter...therefore the vision could not have come from God. Not that God does not give visions, but God only gives guidance to those who believe. He does not lead astray those who believe.

What is the problem with the word sacrafice? Use the word Kill/slaughter instead. It is the same meaning.

here is the definition of sacrifice

1 an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially the killing of a victim on an altar

2 something offered in sacrifice

3 a destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>

I'm not saying that to sacrifice a child is a guidance towards light. Don't be ridiculous. I already explained that it was A TEST given specifically to ABRAHAM.

And I'm saying tests come from everywhere in life. Tests can come from different paths The devil, our friends, family, enemies, but they all ultimately come from God. The point I'm trying to make if you understood rhetoric is that God indeed would not tell him to slaughter his child for any reason because he only gives Guidance to the believers. It was indeed a test I'm not denying that, but the VISION was not from God. That is not the same thing. Our whole lives are tests from God so what is your point? Nowhere in sura 37 does it say Abraham gained vision from God to test him. Because it is something evil (killing a child) and a misguidance, it cannot be from God(who does not change his ways 2237), not EVEN for the sake of a test. The test came from God as do all things, in that he gained a vision from another source and was following it. It is feasible that the devil gave him the vision as a test from God, because the nature of Shaytans is misgudance.

So, now you are asking me to explain to you why different translators, whom I have never met are translating the word differently? How in the world can I answer that?

You can't answer it because there are different interpretations. Sacrifice and slaughter are NOT, the same thing. But some translators chose to use SACRIFICE and some chose to use SLAUGHTER. Now despite how you think they are the same thing, they completely change the idea behind the parable. There would be no replacement with a "momentous sacrifice" if there was no sacrifice in the first place. And indeed there is no necessity for sacrifice anywhere in the Qur'an (in terms of flesh and blood and death)

Of course Abraham was just flesh and blood. I'm not trying to say otherwise.

God Praises Abraham continuously and does not tell us that he was lead astray.....Quite the opposite.

Not the point I was making. Abraham was a MAN who could have dreams like anyone else. Which means the devil could tempt him like anyone else. But only the disobedient/non-believing MAN will be lead astray by temptations. God will KEEP the obedient ones. This is why God intervened, because he saw Abraham was succumbing to temptation of the vision he misinterpreted as being from God and saved him and his son. He later says he makes him an example for later generations to follow and Peace be upon Abraham.

God was testing Abraham. He was not commanding evil. This was not incorrect guidance it was a test. brickwall

I am absolutely NOT saying that God is changing his ways and commanding evil. NOT AT ALL.

it was a test given to Abraham. This is clear.

Yea! I'm not saying it was not a test. wow But you are saying that God is changing his ways because you are saying God gave Abraham a vision to do wrong (killing an innocent, child). But God would have never given this vision in the first place, because God does not misguide or wrong people's souls. Therefore the test indeed was from God as is ALL things, but the vision was not from God because it is not in the nature of God (described in the Qur'an not how I describe him) to do such things. I gave you the aya that God never changes his ways. That is like God telling ADAM to eat from the TREE then stopping him when he was just about to. NO. God said, do not eat from this tree. He only gives Guidance to creatures, humans can be tempted (as was Adam). It does not mean Abraham was weak, or he was evil, or he was full of error. I believe God is showing us in this parable how Abraham made a mistake like Muhammad 6 times throughout the Qur'an. He even chastises Abraham for wishing forgiveness and peace on his Idolating father! We learn from mistakes just as much maybe even more than from excelling in something, which is why God includes Muhammad's mistakes. From Abraham's test we learn as modern day believers that visions we make think are from God may be misleading because they go against the true guidance that is in the Qur'an.

Then you disbelieve in all the verses that say to follow the Torah. Fine. You've said that.

But, you are not even believing in the Quran when IT CLEARLY says these things

Abraham recieved a VISION to slaughter his son (and visions are from Allah)
That it was a TEST from ALLAH

Salam,
Arnab

Calm down, I never said the Torah is not guidance and that it should be denied. But you cannot deny that the Torah has been changed after it was destroyed. Let's see what the Qur'an says about the Torah

He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
33

O People of the Scripture! Why will ye argue about Abraham, when the Torah and the Gospel were not revealed till after him? Have ye then no sense?
365

And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
350

Say O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk.
568

The Qur'an which is alleged to be free from all error. A claim that is boldly stated in it. If we believe in it, we believe in this statement also. Error cannot assail it from any angle. It is sent as a CONFIRMATION of the Torah before it. Therefore whatever is in the current Torah that is truthful will be in the Qur'an, which is the differentiator. As a result The Qur'an is the primary source now for all Abrahamic religions. Of course you would read the Torah, there is no error in doing so. But the Qur'an will tell you what is truthful when reading the Torah, and what has crept in as error.

Do not claim I am not believing in the Qur'an when I am studying it, you have no leg to stand on uttering that. When all you can say is "it is a test" repeatedly. You put in brackets (and visions are from Allah), yes they ARE as are revelations/scriptures/religious books. But how many religious books are there in the world claiming to be from God? What about the Mormon Bible, The Scientology books, the ancient heiroglyphics on Egyptian monuments? They claim to be from God or a higher power and many people indeed believe so, and we know that God does indeed give knowledge, scripture and religious guidance. So using your logic these must be from God as well. You would say of course not! But then how do we truly discern what is from God and what is not. We know the nature of God in terms of HOW he guides and who he guides and that he never changes his ways e.g. suggests evil deeds for the sake of a dream. From there we can differentiate truth from falsehood.

God does indeed reveal through visions, but just because Abraham gained a vision does not mean it is from GOD, especially when we know the Nature of God in the context of the Qur'an and there is nothing explictly stating the vision is from GOD.

Peace

unknownuser

Simple....thats ridiculous.

Salam,
Arnab

Br things are ridiculous when they are hard to believe due to our previous set beliefs.

An example might be;

Does the stick change into sake in the quran? No it doesn't and neither does it in reality.

The proves are there for us to see- but we must be keen and open minded , for you can't add any more to a cup that is already full - Br we must empty our selves to see clearly or the previous beliefs will all ways hinder our search.

But never mind if it's not interesting.
peace

jonny_k

Peace "ayman", "arnab", "belalhammad" and all code-19 rejecters,
See as i told you here http//www.answering-islam.org/PQ/ch9b-index.html#ch9b you can see a definite change in meaning due to the alteration of two letters. Perhaps now youll wakeup and see that the mushaf or book in which the Quran is claimed to be written IS NOT PRESERVED. So again the only way to know the true Quran in the first place is a numerical structure. GOD Bless!

huruf

I have to acknowledge that many times I just do not understand what simple is saying or trying to say, and hear propositions are such muddle for me that I don't know fromw here to pull to untangle them. However in this case, I agree with her that God never asked Ibrahim to kill any of his sons. It was a dream, for a purpose, but we are failing to interpret the dream if we think that God did ask Ibrahim to do such thing. The whole story may have a symbolical meaning or it was meant to be a trial to show Ibrahim for good that sacrificing a son is not what God wants, but rather sacrificing our ego...

Please, Arnab, if you can refute simple, do so, because I really do not see that what she says is ridiculous.

Salaam all and thanks for the exchange

unknownuser

Peace "arnab" and "belalhammad",
The reason why the one to be sacrificed has to be Ishmael is because Abraham had only two sons AND Isaac was BORN AFTER THE SACRIFICE EVENT ACCORDING TO QURAN. Here see

We ransomed him by substituting an animal sacrifice.
...
AND we gave him(Abraham) the good news about the birth of Isaac, to be one of the righteous prophets.

GOD Bless!

Salam,

It does not say BIRTH OF in Arabic. Therefore this is incorrect.

Salam,
Arnab

jonny_k

Peace "arnab",
When we say "and we gave him GOOD NEWS of isaac(wa BASHARNAAHU BI ISHAAQ)" it implies his birth as per the phrase. How do you understand that verse? 2ndly i also agree with simple that GOD did not inspire Abraham with a dream to sacrifice his own son for OD does not command vice. It makes no sense to test someone by making him do something which is illegal on the highest degree just to test whether they love you. E.g. a farther who always taught his son not to steal would not be righteous if he one day asked his son to steal just in order to test how much he loves him. Hence the traditional understanding in which GOD asks Abraham to sacrifice his own son is nonsensible to say the least. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Sorry the "old testament" has no relevance whatsoever with the Qur'an. The Qur'an does not mention the Old Testament, it mentions the Torah. The Tanakh is NOT the same thing. And you must remember the current Torah is not the ORIGINAL Torah.

You are getting confused with the terminology. And we disagree in regards to the original Torah.

I repeat there is nothing in the Qur'an that tells us to sacrifice anything for Him.

You're wrong

267

And when Musa said to his people Surely Allah commands you that you should sacrifice a cow; they said Do you ridicule us? He said I seek the protection of Allah from being one of the ignorant.

I REPEAT ALLAH COMMANDS THAT YOU SHOULD SLAUGHTER/SACRIFICE BAQARAH

271

Musa said He says, Surely she is a cow not made submissive that she should plough the land, nor does she irrigate the tilth; sound, without a blemish in her. They said Now you have brought the truth; so they sacrificed her, though they had not the mind to do (it).

527

And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said I I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).

You can't answer it because there are different interpretations. Sacrifice and slaughter are NOT, the same thing.

We disagree on this. When you slaughter something in the name of GOD then it is sacrifice!

53

Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining willfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

When you slaughter something in the name of GOD then it is sacrifice!

Which is why it is so important that we don't mention any other name besides ALLAH. We don't sacrifice to idols etc. This is repeated in the Quran often.

Not the point I was making. Abraham was a MAN who could have dreams like anyone else. Which means the devil could tempt him like anyone else. But only the disobedient/non-believing MAN will be lead astray by temptations. God will KEEP the obedient ones. This is why God intervened, because he saw Abraham was succumbing to temptation of the vision he misinterpreted as being from God and saved him and his son. He later says he makes him an example for later generations to follow and Peace be upon Abraham.

No.

Yea! I'm not saying it was not a test. wow But you are saying that God is changing his ways because you are saying God gave Abraham a vision to do wrong (killing an innocent, child).

I am not saying that God is changing his ways. How absurd.

But God would have never given this vision in the first place, because God does not misguide or wrong people's souls. Therefore the test indeed was from God as is ALL things, but the vision was not from God because it is not in the nature of God (described in the Qur'an not how I describe him) to do such things. I gave you the aya that God never changes his ways. That is like God telling ADAM to eat from the TREE then stopping him when he was just about to. NO. God said, do not eat from this tree. He only gives Guidance to creatures, humans can be tempted (as was Adam). It does not mean Abraham was weak, or he was evil, or he was full of error. I believe God is showing us in this parable how Abraham made a mistake like Muhammad 6 times throughout the Qur'an. He even chastises Abraham for wishing forgiveness and peace on his Idolating father! We learn from mistakes just as much maybe even more than from excelling in something, which is why God includes Muhammad's mistakes. From Abraham's test we learn as modern day believers that visions we make think are from God may be misleading because they go against the true guidance that is in the Qur'an.

Please don't think that I misunderstand you. I understand you perfectly. But I disagree with you.

The Qur'an which is alleged to be free from all error. A claim that is boldly stated in it. If we believe in it, we believe in this statement also. Error cannot assail it from any angle. It is sent as a CONFIRMATION of the Torah before it. Therefore whatever is in the current Torah that is truthful will be in the Qur'an, which is the differentiator. As a result The Qur'an is the primary source now for all Abrahamic religions. Of course you would read the Torah, there is no error in doing so. But the Qur'an will tell you what is truthful when reading the Torah, and what has crept in as error.

Again, I understand your position but I disagree with you. The confirmation of the Torah means....to AFFIRM that it is still with us.
IF someone confirms a thing. That means they are saying YES THATS IT!
Confirm
1 to give approval to ratify <confirm a treaty>
2 to make firm or firmer strengthen <confirm one's resolve>
3 to administer the rite of confirmation to
4 to give new assurance of the validity of remove doubt about by authoritative act or indisputable fact <confirm a rumor>

Plus there are a multitude of verses saying such things as YOU FOLLOW NO GOOD UNTIL YOU UPHOLD THE TORAH AND INJEEL.

So, I disagree on your position based on QURAN.

But how many religious books are there in the world claiming to be from God? What about the Mormon Bible, The Scientology books, the ancient heiroglyphics on Egyptian monuments? They claim to be from God or a higher power and many people indeed believe so, and we know that God does indeed give knowledge, scripture and religious guidance. So using your logic these must be from God as well. You would say of course not! But then how do we truly discern what is from God and what is not. We know the nature of God in terms of HOW he guides and who he guides and that he never changes his ways e.g. suggests evil deeds for the sake of a dream. From there we can differentiate truth from falsehood.

Does the QURAN say to follow those pagan books? NO nope

Does it say that YOU FOLLOW NO GOOD UNTIL YOU UPHOLD THE TORAH AND INJEEL? YES yes

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Peace "arnab",
When we say "and we gave him GOOD NEWS of isaac(wa BASHARNAAHU BI ISHAAQ)" it implies his birth as per the phrase.

That is incorrect. The root bashar is used many times in the Quran and it does not specifically mean birth. In fact, it most commonly means good news/announcement etc.

How do you understand that verse?

The good news/announcement is Isaac as a prophet as the following words affirm this.

Salam,
Arnab

Soof

Peace

Arnab the times you mention sacrifice in the Qur'an can easily be slaugher. For me it makes more sense to use slaughter because God tells us that sacrifice is irrelevant (2237). We will have to agree to disagree on this.

Regarding my final point I think you misunderstood. I am saying many books claim to be from God. But we believe the Qur'an is from God, therefore we use the Criterion sent to us from the Almighty, to discern what is right from wrong. Therefore we know that some books cannot have come from God because of the nature of it as well as the guidance within it. We can apply this to the vision. That it could not have come from God because it is not in God's nature to give a vision like this, even for the sake of a test. I agree to follow what is said in the Torah and the Injeel indeed. But I am more skeptical about reading what is claimed to be the Taurat and the Injeel in this present day. Peace be upon you, may we all grow in knowledge, all knowledge is with God.

farida

But the Previous scripture is not Abrogated or Forgotten.....apparently, though, it seems to be ignored.

Salam,
Arnab

Salaam,

I agree absolutely! I had discussions with many who only believe in the Qur'an, that you cannot reject the previous scriptures.
Once a Christian missionary came to my door, I explained that we believe in the Bible and Torah and I accepted Bible with respect. They were mystified with my reply and we had a long discussion. At the end of the discussion one of them asked me to give her a copy of the Qur?an.
But I must admit I never got the chance to learn properly I felt that the Psalms were quite close to what is in Qur?an, but the Pauline version of the New Testament was beyond me. I now feel lucky to be able to learn more about it from the posts here.
Please could you explain this?
aAs I understand it, according to the previous scriptures, Eve was held responsible for causing Adam to sin, a crime of which she is cleared in the Qur?an. So is it things like that referred to in 2106?
bIf Issac was the Son in this test then, as I understand it , the sacrifice was to be performed in the Dome of the Rock, whereas animal sacrifice during Hajj in commemoration of his near sacrifice isdone in a different place.
c Also; do you maintain that all of the Torah is authentic, including the book of Moses that refers to his death?
There is a lot of distortion going on so we need plenty of references from the previous scriptures to straighten things out in order to unite the peoples of the books.

peace