Why were these unique versions of the Qur'an later destroyed by fire?
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Peace "ayman",
The earliest complete manuscript dated by C-14 date back to 645-690 CE(http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#Oldest_copy_known_today) i.e. the lower bound still 13 yrs after Muhammad's death who died in 632 AD(http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). SO LETS WAIT till we find manuscripts before 632 AD and if we still find 9128&129 in them as i said then the code-19 is very weak if not entirely falsified. THIS is infact one of its falsification tests you once asked for. GOD Bless! -
Peace JK,
The earliest complete manuscript dated by C-14 date back to 645-690 CE(http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_and_development_of_the_Qur%27an#Oldest_copy_known_today) i.e. the lower bound still 13 yrs after Muhammad's death who died in 632 AD(http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad). SO LETS WAIT till we find manuscripts before 632 AD and if we still find 9128&129 in them as i said then the code-19 is very weak if not entirely falsified. THIS is infact one of its falsification tests you once asked for. GOD Bless!
This settles it then.
Dr. Khalifa and you use the traditional chrnonology and you say above that the prophet died in 632CE. In addition, here is what Dr. Khalifa clearly said in Appendix 24
"Nineteen years after the Prophet's death, some scribes injected two false verses at the end of
Sura 9, the last sura revealed in Medina."So the manuscipt that we need to find should be reasonably dated to prior to 632+19 = 651CE
The manuscript that is dated to 645CE beats this date and so do a few others.
Also, the actual date is probably on the earlier side because Carbon dating in this case is most likely to be skewed up because of contamination by later generations. Remember that those manuscripts were used in everyday life to read from and were passed down from one generation to the next. They were not put in some pottery and stored like the dead sea scrolls. This can be obvious in the later additions such as the border decorations in the manuscript that I showed you above which upon closer examination one can clearly see that the border was not part of the original but was added by later hands.
http//img225.imageshack.us/img225/7626/bordercloseupgo8.gif
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace "ayman",
Peace JK,
This settles it then.
Dr. Khalifa and you use the traditional chrnonology and you say above that the prophet died in 632CE. In addition, here is what Dr. Khalifa clearly said in Appendix 24
"Nineteen years after the Prophet's death, some scribes injected two false verses at the end of
Sura 9, the last sura revealed in Medina."So the manuscipt that we need to find should be reasonably dated to prior to 632+19 = 651CE
The manuscript that is dated to 645CE beats this date and so do a few others.
JK- This is what RK MIGHT have said and if he did he did so out of emotion for theres no evidence for this and i disagree with this statement.
Also, the actual date is probably on the earlier side because Carbon dating in this case is most likely to be skewed up because of contamination by later generations. Remember that those manuscripts were used in everyday life to read from and were passed down from one generation to the next. They were not put in some pottery and stored like the dead sea scrolls. This can be obvious in the later additions such as the border decorations in the manuscript that I showed you above which upon closer examination one can clearly see that the border was not part of the original but was added by later hands.
http//img225.imageshack.us/img225/7626/bordercloseupgo8.gif
Peace,
Ayman
JK- Speculations are not enough. We'll just have to wait and see. However one thing is clear. If the Quran does not contain a numerical pattern of some kind then theres no way for us to know that it has been protected and we will never know if verses have been added or not. It would then become unfalsifiable and thus have no more value than any other religious book. GOD Bless!
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Erm why should anyone proves Quran divinity? Is the teaching and wisdom inside it is not enough to prove it? Even if one can prove the original does not contain 9128,129 or it is burnt then what? Disregard the other valuable wisdoms for the sake of 2 ayas and making sure it clicks with 19? What if the original contain something else how would we react? This i don't understand yet. Can somebody explain? I like to hear opinions on this. Thanks.
Peace out
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Erm why should anyone proves Quran divinity? Is the teaching and wisdom inside it is not enough to prove it? Even if one can prove the original does not contain 9128,129 or it is burnt then what? Disregard the other valuable wisdoms for the sake of 2 ayas and making sure it clicks with 19? What if the original contain something else how would we react? This i don't understand yet. Can somebody explain? I like to hear opinions on this. Thanks.
Peace outPeace
We hear in media so many Shia and Sunni are killing each other daily. This is not new it has been for last 14 centuries.
Time superpower changed the history and fabricated KHILAFAT for such bloodshed. If all Sunnis and shia understand the reality then all of them will come back to God Alone Quran Alone which such bloodshed has been originally for adding 2 verse at end of chapter 9.
Peace -
What do you mean by this?
Thanks
Peace
We at this era with all education and knowledge plus all these news media are cheated and after many years we find the fact. The news and fact are hide by either side ,the free world that news media are in control of investors or dictatorial systems that rules the media.
1400 years ago rarely people were educated and can read and write ( even after 1400 years yet same situation ). The historian and scribes , and educated people were servants of rulers and had to write the history by winner as happens even today.
The difficulty between Sunnis and Shia has been started by adding 2 verses to end of chapter 9 which Ali did not accepted and resulted into such bloodshed for centuries. The winner changed history and blamed on Ali claim for Khilafat and yet descendent of them which are in power in Iran as leading Shia follow what their parents followed blindly .
Now by tool available inside book 7430 the 2 fabricated verse at the end of chapter 9 is removed and Quran is back to its original divinity for this chapter.
If Sunnis and Shai accept the fact that all this bloodshed original was over 9128-129 then should remove fabricated brand name as Sunni and Shia and all believe in God Alone Quran Alone 319 and peace.
Peace. -
I see what you mean now. But how would that solve the bloodshed problem? If i'm not mistaken the two verse is not the root cause of their bloodshed. I think you know that.
You pointed out 319. and it clearly says
319 The system with God is submission, and those who received the Scripture did not dispute except after the knowledge came to them out of jealousy between them. And whoever rejects Gods signs, then God is swift in judgment.
This is the root cause IMHO. Not the two verses. Both groups including other groups (maybe this group too?) think they're better than others. Judging others as if they know better than God. If one if egoistic enough they will not notice this kind of thing no matter how much we suggest to them. Bringing the two verses issue will also light up more fire than extinguishing it. Don't you think it is like this my friend?
knowledge + ego + confusion + judgment + force = bad news
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Allah says the original Quran is with him. Do you dispute with Allah?
Just pondering (not disputing ;D), If the original Quran is with Him then the Quran in this world now is what? not original? semi original? false? corrupted? How do you discern the original version and not original version? This thread is discussing this... I don't think they're disputing it....
What say you?
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Just pondering (not disputing ;D), If the original Quran is with Him then the Quran in this world now is what? not original? semi original? false? corrupted? How do you discern the original version and not original version? This thread is discussing this... I don't think they're disputing it....
What say you?
Salam,
The misunderstanding comes from the fact that "Qura" means to call out/recite etc.
The revealation given to Muhammad in book form is called The Quran.
The original recitation (Quran) is with Allah. You have what was given to Muhammad in book form which is called "The Quran."
Salam,
Arnab -
I see what you mean now. But how would that solve the bloodshed problem? If i'm not mistaken the two verse is not the root cause of their bloodshed. I think you know that.
You pointed out 319. and it clearly says
319 The system with God is submission, and those who received the Scripture did not dispute except after the knowledge came to them out of jealousy between them. And whoever rejects God?s signs, then God is swift in judgment.
This is the root cause IMHO. Not the two verses. Both groups including other groups (maybe this group too?) think they're better than others. Judging others as if they know better than God. If one if egoistic enough they will not notice this kind of thing no matter how much we suggest to them. Bringing the two verses issue will also light up more fire than extinguishing it. Don't you think it is like this my friend?
knowledge + ego + confusion + judgment + force = bad news
As soon as you accept you submit to God Alone ?Submission? you loose your ex belief brand name, ??..sunni, hanafi?..jafari, shis, bahaie??
But being a Muslim ?submitter? based on Quran needs proof for the book . Verses context for protection and securing it can not be seen and is like a human wrote unless we have solid proof that Quran is not manipulated like previous one.
Certainly its Arabic Excellency rhyme style in its time and for its location (Arab?s Communities and only those well educated can read and see text miracle can not be work of Mohammed, Some Iranian say it is work of Salman Farsi which may the verse indicate somebody else is writing those messages links to this rumor in that time. Took 1400 years until they come with such imitation.
http//suralikeit.com
BUT if this forging was done 1400 years ago then we had another Quran and which one is original is like peace of yellow metal . It has to go trough examination to find which piece is gold.
Human never has such an ability to examine God?s words and God knew that . He embedded into his word with pointing their secrecy of book . He placed tool for such examination and revealed to the one had enough knowledge to use computer and the time that this screen is transmitting it to whole world.
That is Miracle of this era sitting at you room and quietly study it examine and enjoy it, enjoy the greatness of God in His wisdom and greatness of His design which the most knowledgeable mathematician equipped with most advanced CAD are not able to imitate a simple one.
When first time that forged Quran was published was big news and Mohammedan asked for banning it but we Miracle believers laugh at it do not function and cannot pass code examination.
Without computer we can not see this securing and protecting system spreading all over whole book in a symmetrically method with their own consistency in groups.. So now we have this proof and clearly shows that 2 verses has been added to book.
Believing In such fact is end of any dispute and bloodshed because it removed and we have no argument about it. But jealousy comes from of all corrupted belief ( Mostly clergies and scholar which loose their jobs) including Sunni, shia against such proof . Because they have to close all those religions schools and like me and you read God?s messages directly on this screen. Now which messages? Those that have proof.
Thin for moment if those people killing each other were into discussing and search like us here was there any bloodshed?
Certainly there are many educated one that have been brain washed with their parent belief but now is time to examine it and follow what you can verify it 1736
knowledge + ego + confusion + judgment + force = bad newsknowledge can be following our ancestors knowledge and do try to if their knowledge was right?
Ego is part of any human, many of us try to avoid it but how far we can depends on situation and our environment.
Human never has flawless judgment and that is most destructive element.
Unfortunately force has been there and would be to end of this illusion.
Force can be physically to cause pain or can be hide into satnic desires forcing us toward negative path..We people discuss the issue peacefully and we never do suicide bombers action . It that right my friend?
Peace. -
Allah is the best teacher.
Indeed Allah is the best teacher... not Quran entirely IMHO. There is somewhat a mixtures of truth and falsehood which creates confusion. If not, why the disputes? maybe God wants to show something...
I like to chart the flow of how the information is compiled (this is just a rough sketch). For clarification... I hope you guys can help too. Let's fill in the blanks together shall we?....
Allah --o---> Gabriel ----o--> Muhammad --o--> Leafs, Skins, Rocks --o--> Compiled by --o--> Zaid & Uthman ---------o---> Con't
\ / \ / \ /
o--> Other --o o-----> Followers ----o o--> Any other Parties? --o
Spirit(s)? MemoryCon't --> Dispute on --o--> Uthman Version -------------------------------o--o--> Gold Quran ----> Now Quran
Authority \ / \ Declared as
o--> Ali Version?**--------o---> Disqualified? --o \ Original? *
\ /
o--> Other Version? --o o--> All references
\ were burnt?
o--> Or is it Hidden? ***- I just stop at Gold Quran since it was agreed that that is the original one. There's no dispute after that (right?) other than on Hadiths and Rashad Khalifa's discovery...
** I take it as this is Shiite version... I forgot the name of the Imam...
*** Vatican likes to collect artifacts... They have their own personal library.... This is esoteric stuff. Rumors has it that Vatican is controlling Islam... I can't prove that... google it...
There's a lot of levels don't you think? There should be a possibility that it could be tampered right? But of course we should believe that it is protected (or maybe we are suggested that it is protected? hmm) ... but what if the one that is protected only is the one that is with Allah. Like Arnab said. Not the current one... What do you guys think?
Peace
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Your question is very bad.
I did not know that ?
Why is bad.?
Finding the truth and fact is bad?
Do you read Quran carefully?
Have you read 1736?
I am doing according to God?s message and do not care you or your teachers which have given you wrong information do not like it.Quran means that which is spoken by Allah. When Allah makes qara'a, that is Quran. How can you burn words from someone mouth?
God is not human to speak with different voice and different language. The word of God is not in any form of human ability like walking, speaking, eating ?. it is inspired to chosen one by spiritual communication is trough brain and not physical, But for first time these words was scribed by prophet trough inspiration on materials which can be burn..
Scriber or later scribers mistake knowingly or not , willingly or not can change the words as written with ink on any inflammable material.Please ask intelligent questions.
Instead of such statement use your brain and find the fact.
Peace. -
Salam bahman. Please ask yourself the following. Are you an argumentative person?
I said your question is bad. Instead of going back to your question and examining it to look for what I am talking about, You ask me why is it bad. The answer to why is it bad was in my next sentence. I said you cannot burn a spoken word. Quran is the spoken word of Allah.
You want to find the truth? The truth is you do not know the meanings of the words you write. You do not know that Quran is the spoken word. You say things like do you read Quran. How can you read a spoken word? You can read a Kitaab, you cannot read a Quran. You can hear a Quran.
Allah is all powerful. Allah can use a voice and different language if he so chooses, your words cannot take away from the power of Allah to do as he chooses. Scribes did not write a Quran, scribes wrote a Kitaab.
You can use your brain like any kafir, munafiq, and mushrik. They use their brain a lot and go further astray. Learn to submit your rebellious brain to the words of Allah.
Allah is mighty wise.
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Peace Bahman,
Peace Samia and thank you for your note. I am learning and sometime Iam slow, Now I understnd that Ayman means no phisical focal point just
Such obedience should be based on what source?The source is clearly given in 2142-150. The source is the truth from our lord. The truth from our lord is everywhere and not only in the great reading. How do you think people obeyed the god before the great reading?
Reality is the truth and it is truth with or without humankind. The god created everything with the truth. Falsehood only exists in our imagnination. It is not real. This is what the great reading tells us.
Peace,
Ayman