Who are the people of the book?

jonny_k

Peace "arnab",
Heres the evidence that the OT is anything but accurate
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_criticism#Old_Testament
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Torah
LAST BUT NOT LEAST http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tgdQM9MO5s (1st part)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTSjGNEdcPQ&feature=related (2nd part)
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pVRavPUz9s (3rd Part)
Notice in particular GOD supposedly killing every FIRST BORN in Egypt instead of the actual criminals. This cruelty and absurdity is not mentioned in the Quran. In the 3rd part Michael Shermer explains the inaccuracy of the "Gospels" of Jesus. GOD Bless!

Soof

The Quran does say that God sent the Tawrah and the Tawrah is the Torah. However, Torah in Hebrew literally means Law/Instruction. And Israelists (Jews) have been known to use this word even for the Talmud. But what is always meant by it is Mosaic Law/Instruction. And because they believe that those first five books came from Moses as well as the Talmud they will say that these are the Torah. But the Torah is only the teachings found in Moses' actual words in these books. So the Torah can only be found in the quoted words of Moses in these books and none of the other words. Deutoronomy has most of Moses' actual quotes.

The same is with the Injeel. It is the Gospel but some Biblical trinitarians and unitarians believe that all of the New Testament is an extension of Jesus' teachings so they call it all the Gospel. The 4 accounts of the Gospel are just that accounts of the Gospel. The Gospel, which is the Injeel, is only found in Jesus' actual words (usually found in red in most Bibles discounting Revelations). So Jesus' teachings found in his own words are the Gospel and nothing else.

The Quran does say that the Gospel and the Torah were revealed and are intact but we need to define these terms and not get caught up in misleading Judeo-Christian doctrine. None of the five books of Moses claim to be from Moses, although some of those books quote him. And none of the books in the New Testament claim to be from Jesus or to be his gospel, but some of them quote him and his gospel. Only the quotes of these two prophets of God (God bless them) should interest us in understanding the Quran's claims. We should also be conscious of alternate meanings in the Greek and Aramaic versions for certain things that are said. For instance in John, Jesus claims to be God's only begotten son or his only son. But both are wrong when we read the whole Bible and see that its books claim many sons of God. The greek word is monogenes and can mean only son OR unique son. But mistaken Christians have and will continue to prefer the obviously incorrect meaning despite what the rest of their books indicate. Jacob in the Old testament is given the name Israel and named the FIRSTBORN of God. Just to give a clear example.

Godbless,
Anwar

Very well put, peace

unknownuser

Salam, Arnab,

So, Is what I am quoting underneath revealed? If it is revealed, who revealed it to whom?

Genesis 6 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

"Genesis 6

1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

Salaam

This is from the Torah...the Five books of Moses.

Salam,
Arnab

unknownuser

Peace "arnab",
JK- OH REALLY? Show me that arch evidence for that.

Did you forget to read THIS from the SAME PAGE as the link you provided (which I was already familiar with by the way)

The oldest known preserved fragment of a Torah text is a good luck charm inscribed with a text close to, although not identical with, the Priestly Blessing found in Num 624?27, dated to approximately 600 BC (Dever, p. 180). The oldest complete or nearly complete texts are the Dead Sea Scrolls from the middle of the 2nd century BC to the 1st century AD. The DSS contain almost all the books of the Tanakh, although not all are complete.

source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Oldest_manuscripts

The Masoretic Text, written in Hebrew, became the standard authorized Hebrew text around 100 AD. It existed prior to the writings of the New Testament, confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls as early as 168 B.C., and was used as the official Hebrew Old Testament at the time the biblical canon was established.
source http//www.allabouttruth.org/oldest-bible-version-faq.htm

BRITISH MUSEUM MAKES IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH IN BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY
Rare cuniform tablet
source http//www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/ixbin/hix?IXFIRST=4&IXSS=IXFIRST%3d1%26_IXmode%3dgfx_en%26%2524%2528news%2bor%2bexhibition%2529%2bin%2bart_section%2bindex%2btext_wp2%3d%252e%26_IXSESSION_%3drEQJ_SMJtWB%26%257bSIMPLE%257d%257band%257d%2524%253f%253a%2524%3dbritish%2bmuseum%2bbiblical%26%2524sort%2b%2540descending%2bart_publish_date%3d%252e&_IXmode=gfx_en&IXMAXHITS=1&IXSR=aVL74SBjZQw&IXSPFX=search/full_gfx/&IXSESSION=rEQJ_SMJtWB&submit-button=summary

Isaiah scroll, written by a Judean scribe around 120 B.C.,
http//www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/13/1485989-israel-museum-puts-dead-sea-scroll-on-rare-display

In 1947, seven ancient scrolls were found in pottery urns in caves in the Judean Desert. The scrolls reached antiquities dealers in Bethlehem, and after many vicissitudes they were gathered in Jerusalem and exhibited at the Shrine of the Book in the Israel Museum. One of the first scrolls to be discovered was a full copy of the Book of Isaiah, which provides important evidence for the text of the Bible that was common in Eretz-Israel at the end of the Second Temple period. In time, more and more fragments of scrolls were discovered, some in caves at Nahal Qumran, some at Masada, and some in other places of the Judean Desert. Scholars believe that the most ancient of these scrolls were written around 250 BCE, whereas the latest ones were written in the early second century CE (after the destruction of the Second Temple and the repression of the Bar-Kokhba Rebellion).
source http//aleppocodex.org/links/7.html

The Dead Sea Scrolls date from 250 BCE to 68 CE and are our bridge to a period that laid the foundation of western traditions, beliefs and practices throughout the past two millennia.
source http//www.naturalsciences.org/wnew/2008-02-19_deadseascrolls.html

There is your Archeological evidence. They PRE DATE both Muhammad and Isa.

jonny_k I'm surprised you even believe in the Quran. Have you read all the people who claim that it is not authentic and that it has been tampered with etc etc? I could post pages of links where people claim they can prove the Quran is a fraud.

The fact is you are either min al muminoon or min al kafiroon.

Why don't you go read about that for a while.

Salam,
Arnab

huruf

This is from the Torah...the Five books of Moses.

Salam,
Arnab

Salaam, Arnab
Yes, following your previous posts as far as that I can get. But this particularl extract according to your consideration is it revealed? If so by who to whom?

Salaam

unknownuser

Peace "arnab",

JK- You yourself indirectly agreed that GOD did allow/suggest/command the death penlaty for apostates/blasphemers once. This is enough to know that it cannot be the true Word of GOD. If such were to be the commands/suggestions/laws of GOD then the hadith can also be the inspirations of GOD. The CONTENT plays a VITAL ROLE in deciding whether some scripture is the Word of GOD or not as well. A Book of GOD cannot contain statements which defy all logic and common sense and/or independent verified observations.

There are many different adultery related crimes and the punishment is usually muwt ta-muwt and sometimes stoning is specified (as in Deut 2223-24)

Muwt ta-muwt is used often in the Torah?.it is used after many transgressions as a punishment.

Adam was told he would mout-ta-mout on the day that he ate of the tree in the garden and he did not die until hundreds of years later.(Genesis 217).

Often times the concept of death is turning away from God by transgressing or sinning. Whereas turning back to God and asking for forgiveness, correcting ones ways etc is metaphorically called ?life.?

Eze 1831 Cast away from you all your transgressions, wherein ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 1832 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD; wherefore turn yourselves, and live.

Psa 11516 The heavens are the heavens of the LORD; but the earth hath He given to the children of men.

Psa 11517 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence;

Psa 64 (65) Return, O LORD, deliver my soul; save me for Thy mercy's sake.

Psa 65 (66) For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the nether-world who will give Thee thanks?

Life is connected with the keeping of God?s law and appoints death for the transgression of it

Lev 185 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments which if a man do, he shall live in them I am the LORD.

Deu 3019 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live

Deu 3020 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him for he is thy life, and the length of thy days that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD swore unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Deu 83 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Muwt/death is used in as many ways in the Bible as it is used in the Quran. Death can be the death of the body, or spiritual death of being removed from God.

The harsh punishment of physical death (muwt ta-muwt) for adultery or other crimes in the OT was a physical punishment that beni Isreal could enforce, but only after a judicial process.

The punishment could be carried out if they took the matter before one of their judges and were found guilty of the crime.

There was a process of

accusing someone,
going before a judge (who heard both sides of the stories),
presenting witnesses
the judge issuing a sentence
and the punishment being carried out,

This is much like many judicial systems today.

One could not just arbitrarily start throwing stones at someone based on a suspected crime. LOL

What many forget is that There are chapters and verses on sin offerings and atonement sacrafices that could be made after someone sinned. And then the sin was forgiven and the person could go on with life.

This happened many times with the WHOLE COMMUNITY of beni Isreal. Where Aaron made atonement for their sins (where by full extent of the laws given they could have ALL been stoned to death).

So when people who are unfamiliar with the Torah and pick out a verse without understanding the Torah they become very distressed (like some of our friends here on free-minds). Because they do not understand the system.

The Torah is not written like the Quran. The Quran is more poetically written (like psalms) gives a few verses on a subject and moves on. The Torah has chapters and verses dedicated to a subject and reads like a modern day book. You have to read it from the beginning to end to understand what is going on.

It?s also a book of laws. If one looks at a modern day law book one will see that it is written much the same way as the laws in Leviticus. Yet most judges understand that the punishment is the extreme point that they can go to. Same was true in the Torah.

In fact, there are even laws that read?and if the people do not kill him?.God will set his face against the man and cut him off?.etc etc. (This is not the only verse like this). God was always telling the Isrealites that they should fear him and not the people. And to turn to him and walk in his ways and he would forgive them their inequities.

Lev 201 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,

Lev 202 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Lev 203 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

Lev 204 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not

Lev 205 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

As for the punishment of adultery In the Injeel

Joh 84 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

Joh 85 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned but what sayest thou?

Joh 86 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Joh 87 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Joh 88 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

Joh 89 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

Joh 810 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

Joh 811 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee go, and sin no more.

Mat 527 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery

Mat 528 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Mat 529 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 530 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 531 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement

Mat 532 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Isa urged the Isrealites not to be so quick to issue a judgement that was to an extreme. And also urged the people not to be so quick to commit the crime. His admonishment was to both the judges and the transgressors.

Jesus went back to ORIGINAL TORAH and urged transgressors to ADMIT their sins?.ask forgiveness?.and go give the sin offering?.thanking God for his mercy?..INSTEAD of issuing the Punishment that was allowable (not demanded by God but allowed by God).

IF the person went through the repentence/atonement process they could not be punished because they were FORGIVEN.

The judges were not observing the Torah laws because they automatically resorted to violence instead of mercy and not giving the people the option for repentence and the like.

The Quran that tells us that we don?t HAVE to judge (as Isa said judge not lest ye be judged).

The Quran says IF you judge?..judge between them with equity. We can forego judgement and that is better. Because man can only see what is apparent but God sees what is without and within?.therefore man can be deceived and wrong in his judgement?.and man could punish another unfairly (due to not knowing all the facts)

(They are) listeners of a lie, devourers of what is forbidden; therefore if they come to you, judge between them or turn aside from them, and if you turn aside from them, they shall not harm you in any way; and if you judge, judge between them with equity; surely Allah loves those who judge equitably.

JK- Actually i dont beleive that the scripture has been distorted AND THIS IS YOUR FALLACY OF UNDERSTANDING ME. I just say that JUST BECAUSE CERTAIN RELIGIOUS GROUPS NAME THEIR BOOKS TORAH, INJEEL, ETC DOESNT MEAN THAT THEY REALLY ARE. Get it?

You are wrong. Full stop.

(but of course you would rather argue with me....someone who KNOWS rather than use your BRAIN and discover I am right....LOL)

There is carbon dating and discoveries of texts that pre-date both Muhammad and Isa and are the same texts that we have with us today. This is scientific evidence.

Like I said before, your either min al muminoon aw min al kafiroon.

Salam,
Arnab

jonny_k