Who are the people of the book?

jonny_k

Peace "arnab",

Did you forget to read THIS from the SAME PAGE as the link you provided (which I was already familiar with by the way)

The oldest known preserved fragment of a Torah text is a good luck charm inscribed with a text close to, although not identical with, the Priestly Blessing found in Num 624?27, dated to approximately 600 BC (Dever, p. 180). The oldest complete or nearly complete texts are the Dead Sea Scrolls from the middle of the 2nd century BC to the 1st century AD. The DSS contain almost all the books of the Tanakh, although not all are complete.

source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Oldest_manuscripts

The Masoretic Text, written in Hebrew, became the standard authorized Hebrew text around 100 AD. It existed prior to the writings of the New Testament, confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls as early as 168 B.C., and was used as the official Hebrew Old Testament at the time the biblical canon was established.
source http//www.allabouttruth.org/oldest-bible-version-faq.htm

BRITISH MUSEUM MAKES IMPORTANT BREAKTHROUGH IN BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY
Rare cuniform tablet
source http//www.24hourmuseum.org.uk/ixbin/hix?IXFIRST=4&IXSS=IXFIRST%3d1%26_IXmode%3dgfx_en%26%2524%2528news%2bor%2bexhibition%2529%2bin%2bart_section%2bindex%2btext_wp2%3d%252e%26_IXSESSION_%3drEQJ_SMJtWB%26%257bSIMPLE%257d%257band%257d%2524%253f%253a%2524%3dbritish%2bmuseum%2bbiblical%26%2524sort%2b%2540descending%2bart_publish_date%3d%252e&_IXmode=gfx_en&IXMAXHITS=1&IXSR=aVL74SBjZQw&IXSPFX=search/full_gfx/&IXSESSION=rEQJ_SMJtWB&submit-button=summary

Isaiah scroll, written by a Judean scribe around 120 B.C.,
http//www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/05/13/1485989-israel-museum-puts-dead-sea-scroll-on-rare-display

In 1947, seven ancient scrolls were found in pottery urns in caves in the Judean Desert. The scrolls reached antiquities dealers in Bethlehem, and after many vicissitudes they were gathered in Jerusalem and exhibited at the Shrine of the Book in the Israel Museum. One of the first scrolls to be discovered was a full copy of the Book of Isaiah, which provides important evidence for the text of the Bible that was common in Eretz-Israel at the end of the Second Temple period. In time, more and more fragments of scrolls were discovered, some in caves at Nahal Qumran, some at Masada, and some in other places of the Judean Desert. Scholars believe that the most ancient of these scrolls were written around 250 BCE, whereas the latest ones were written in the early second century CE (after the destruction of the Second Temple and the repression of the Bar-Kokhba Rebellion).
source http//aleppocodex.org/links/7.html

The Dead Sea Scrolls date from 250 BCE to 68 CE and are our bridge to a period that laid the foundation of western traditions, beliefs and practices throughout the past two millennia.
source http//www.naturalsciences.org/wnew/2008-02-19_deadseascrolls.html

There is your Archeological evidence. They PRE DATE both Muhammad and Isa.

jonny_k I'm surprised you even believe in the Quran. Have you read all the people who claim that it is not authentic and that it has been tampered with etc etc? I could post pages of links where people claim they can prove the Quran is a fraud.

The fact is you are either min al muminoon or min al kafiroon.

Why don't you go read about that for a while.

Salam,
Arnab

JK- 1st just because they predate both Isa and Muhammad does not mean theyre linked to Moses WHOSE VERY EXISTENCE YET REMAINS TO BE PROVEN. 2ndly the DSS are not exactly similar to the masocretic Hebrew manuscripts
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls#Significance
"Although a few of the biblical manuscripts found at Qumran differ significantly from the Masoretic text, most do not."
So there goes the argument of preservation of these manuscripts. As i said the only reasonable way for GOD to protect a scripture is via a numerical structure and in regards to the Bible ive only seen Gen 11 and John 11 exhibiting a signficant enough pattern to be from GOD
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13465.0
Last but not least i admit that even the entire Quran has NOT been revealed to us as yet. To claim it has would be living in denial. GOD Bless!

jonny_k

Peace "arnab",

There are many different adultery related crimes and the punishment is usually muwt ta-muwt and sometimes stoning is specified (as in Deut 2223-24)

JK- WELL thats it! The very specification of stoning allegedly by GOD makes it impossible for the scripture to be from Him. GOD does not prescribe a punishment which is entirely unjust and illogical or do you say adultery is ever a greater crime than murder ore even rape? BUT that is not all. GOD in the OT also allegedly prescribes stoning/burning to death FOR APOSTATES/BLASPHEMERS and it is impossible to justify this as ive explained.

Muwt ta-muwt is used often in the Torah?.it is used after many transgressions as a punishment.

Adam was told he would mout-ta-mout on the day that he ate of the tree in the garden and he did not die until hundreds of years later.(Genesis 217).

Often times the concept of death is turning away from God by transgressing or sinning. Whereas turning back to God and asking for forgiveness, correcting ones ways etc is metaphorically called ?life.?

JK- In case of stoning the prescription is clear and does not refer to allegorical death and that is enough to prove this document is not from GOD.

The harsh punishment of physical death (muwt ta-muwt) for adultery or other crimes in the OT was a physical punishment that beni Isreal could enforce, but only after a judicial process.

JK- This is exactly what im disputing. GOD would never prescribe such penalties for ANY NATION on the planet. Rather hHe would send a message abolishing such vile man made laws. And your forgetting the worse law of stoning/burning blasphemers.

The punishment could be carried out if they took the matter before one of their judges and were found guilty of the crime.

There was a process of

accusing someone,
going before a judge (who heard both sides of the stories),
presenting witnesses
the judge issuing a sentence
and the punishment being carried out,

This is much like many judicial systems today.

One could not just arbitrarily start throwing stones at someone based on a suspected crime. LOL

JK- You dont need to mention court procedures. Even "muslims" have court procedures and shariah doesnt allow just arbitrary stoning. THE VERY PUNISHMENT IS UNACEPTABLE. Thats the point you ned to get INTO YOUR HEAD.

What many forget is that There are chapters and verses on sin offerings and atonement sacrafices that could be made after someone sinned. And then the sin was forgiven and the person could go on with life.

This happened many times with the WHOLE COMMUNITY of beni Isreal. Where Aaron made atonement for their sins (where by full extent of the laws given they could have ALL been stoned to death).

So when people who are unfamiliar with the Torah and pick out a verse without understanding the Torah they become very distressed (like some of our friends here on free-minds). Because they do not understand the system.

The Torah is not written like the Quran. The Quran is more poetically written (like psalms) gives a few verses on a subject and moves on. The Torah has chapters and verses dedicated to a subject and reads like a modern day book. You have to read it from the beginning to end to understand what is going on.

JK- As i said the very fact that the OT even allows or suggests such a punishment is enough to say that it is not Divinely inspired.

It?s also a book of laws. If one looks at a modern day law book one will see that it is written much the same way as the laws in Leviticus. Yet most judges understand that the punishment is the extreme point that they can go to. Same was true in the Torah.

JK- You dont need to educate me on all this since im very well aware of this and your not getting my point. Do we see in any modern law book, except shariah which is considered outdated and barabric, a punishment of stoning/burning for aduleters or worse yet blasphemy or apostasy? Such punishments MUST NOT EVEN EXIST IN DIVINE LAW ESPECIALLY NOT FOR SOMETHING AS RELATIVE AS BLASPHEMY. Get this now?

In fact, there are even laws that read?and if the people do not kill him?.God will set his face against the man and cut him off?.etc etc. (This is not the only verse like this). God was always telling the Isrealites that they should fear him and not the people. And to turn to him and walk in his ways and he would forgive them their inequities.

JK- YET the OT suggests a law for killing/stoning blasphemers/apostates. As i said the very suggestion of these is enough to prove the sccripture NOT divine for such LAWS ARE NEVER RIGHT NEVER!

As for the punishment of adultery In the Injeel

Isa urged the Isrealites not to be so quick to issue a judgement that was to an extreme. And also urged the people not to be so quick to commit the crime. His admonishment was to both the judges and the transgressors.

Jesus went back to ORIGINAL TORAH and urged transgressors to ADMIT their sins?.ask forgiveness?.and go give the sin offering?.thanking God for his mercy?..INSTEAD of issuing the Punishment that was allowable (not demanded by God but allowed by God).

IF the person went through the repentence/atonement process they could not be punished because they were FORGIVEN.

JK- Again i said the very existence of the law of stoning is enough to prove the scripture undivine. 2ndly the so called gospels of Jesus are very inconsistent and have been written years after Jesus. This is INDISPUTABLE amongst the scientific community and has been discussed in the 3rd part of the video above by Michael Schermer.

The judges were not observing the Torah laws because they automatically resorted to violence instead of mercy and not giving the people the option for repentence and the like.

The Quran that tells us that we don?t HAVE to judge (as Isa said judge not lest ye be judged).

The Quran says IF you judge?..judge between them with equity. We can forego judgement and that is better. Because man can only see what is apparent but God sees what is without and within?.therefore man can be deceived and wrong in his judgement?.and man could punish another unfairly (due to not knowing all the facts)

JK- The Quran NEVER states any law or so much as a suggestion from GOD that apostates should be killed. If it did i would never have accepted it as the Word of GOD as ive explained to you many times now.

You are wrong. Full stop.

(but of course you would rather argue with me....someone who KNOWS rather than use your BRAIN and discover I am right....LOL)

There is carbon dating and discoveries of texts that pre-date both Muhammad and Isa and are the same texts that we have with us today. This is scientific evidence.

JK- As i mentioned earlier just because manuscripts are older than Isa and Muhammad does not mean they belong to the person who is claimed to have originally received them i.e. Moses in this case. There is NO arch evidence for the very existence of Moses till today so how can you say those are the original manuscripts? Yes part of those scriptures maybe correct and the Jews and Christians were asked to realize Muhammad saying the truth via that small truthful part which the people of the book still possessed. that was enough for them at that time because they knew Muhammad could not possibly have known even that.

Like I said before, your either min al muminoon aw min al kafiroon.

Salam,
Arnab

JK- Another black and white classification of yours. There are many shades of grey and many levels of kufr and imaan. GOD Bless!

unknownuser

Peace "arnab",

JK- 1st just because they predate both Isa and Muhammad does not mean theyre linked to Moses WHOSE VERY EXISTENCE YET REMAINS TO BE PROVEN.

So, you don't even believe in the Quran verses on Moses??

If you don't believe that he exists then what about THE HUGE number of verses in the Quran regarding MOSES?

2ndly the DSS are not exactly similar to the masocretic Hebrew manuscripts
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_scrolls#Significance
"Although a few of the biblical manuscripts found at Qumran differ significantly from the Masoretic text, most do not."

Yes, there are books in the Dead Sea Scrolls that we were not previously aware of.

As i said the only reasonable way for GOD to protect a scripture is via a numerical structure and in regards to the Bible ive only seen Gen 11 and John 11 exhibiting a signficant enough pattern to be from GOD
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13465.0
Last but not least i admit that even the entire Quran has NOT been revealed to us as yet. To claim it has would be living in denial. GOD Bless!

rotfl

You should read what I wrote here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16727.0 ;D

Salam,
Arnab

Joe_Betik

salaam,

it depends on what you understand about 'kitab'.

'kitab' is (s) piece of writing, record, paper; letter, note, message; document, deed; contract (esp. in marriage); book.

my personal comprehension on 'kitab' is message'. thus, 'ahl al-kitab' in my comprehension is 'those given the message'.

interesting question
in what form was al-qur'an revealed to prophet muhammad? or those messages revealed to other prophets? for a clue, read the earlier surah (by revelation order). there are verses that indicate that the humans would like, or prefer to receive messages in printed sheets.

peace

jb

Salaam,

Tradionally we understood that this refers to jews and Christains but then it should have said "People of the books"
My question is, without referring to hadiths; who are people of the book?

peace
farida

jonny_k

Peace "arnab",

So, you don't even believe in the Quran verses on Moses??

If you don't believe that he exists then what about THE HUGE number of verses in the Quran regarding MOSES?

JK- Those quranic verses as i said ARE NUMERICALLY CONNECTED to other verses which shows that they belong to the Quran. Without this i wouldnt know whether those verses are Quranic or not. This is what ive been trying to explain to you before but you dont seem to get it. Besides this none of verses which even you accept as Quran contain any sort of illogical and absurd laws/suggestions/prescriptions as the OT Bible and the list of injustice in the OT is VERY LONG. Here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596928.msg174946#msg174946

Yes, there are books in the Dead Sea Scrolls that we were not previously aware of.

rotfl

You should read what I wrote here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16727.0 ;D

Salam,
Arnab

JK- Not only that but there are DISCREPANCIES with the masocretic manuscripts. The manuscripts which supposedly contain the Quran also contain differences even if not that much but i say if GOD says He'll protect a scripture Hed do it down tot he minimum possible which is the LETTER. GOD Bless!

unknownuser