No God
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if You Go To Google and Research The Mandlebrot Set you Will Understand Why The past And Our sub Cellular Organelles cannot Be Used As Evidence Against A Creator.
So,you tell me,what is your conception of God.Is He a personal creator God who intervienes or a life force that in this world at least,develops slowly.
It still makes no sense to me.Other than life just is and we are subject to it - hey,that sounds like God! -
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God Is Not natural So You Will Not Find Him Studying natural Sciences. Expand Your Studies To Physics And Mathematics Etc. The Governing Laws Of creation, In Order To Find The Creator.
No you are attributing qualities to a none existant construct in your mind,its so easy to say he is beyond his creation,its like trying to disprove something that is always hidden.
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you are intentionally limiting your knowlede because you do not want to believe in God. peace.
Apologies if you feel frustrated,your contributions are gratefully recieved.
It is far from the truth that Iam intentionally limiting my knowledge,you should know better than to make such judgements just because you have a problem. -
im not the one with a problem. Your problem is you can not reconcile God and Creation. Thats why you Started this thread. i suffer from no such confusion.
You have a problem with me not seing things the way you see things-is what I mean,so you have to say something which is a personal comment,ie iam limiting my knowledge,thats all.
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i only told you to broaden your study to fields more appropriate to determine Gods existence. You have refused To do this, you are limiting your knowledge.
Please excuse me,but you are again making assumptions in a patronising manner.You have no idea as to the areas I have studied.So please ristrict your comments to pure subject matter.
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Peace all,
But from where would come the laws in this creation? who made the rules?
Are we just an accident in a process?? but even then, who started the process?
Denying the existence of the creator is like denying the creation, which I believe is hard to conceive, it is like denying one's own existence, which means becoming nil. And this doesn?t mean that this creation will stop.
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This is a very important,crucial point you make,its always been argued on this basis,you either have faith or you dont.But if you take into consideration the way the mind developed and the way it functions psychologically,individually and in groups,it can be argued that this is a delusion,just as a mentally ill patient who has a delusion.A conviction he is certain is true,nothing you can say will disprove this fact to him.Some say,whats the problem,if he is happy leave him alone,I have sympathy with this,but that is ok,allowing someone to have a belief which is not true,but what then if their delusion leads them to commit acts which are detrimental to themselves and others.Perhaps Truth is more important in the long run and it is not a good idea for society to accept anything other than that.
Also I would reiterate,iam not an aethiest,I am in a position where Iam reviewing the whole arguement and as I said before,the arguement seems to come out against their being a God,its an uneccassary concept,just a step up from the god of pagan religions.
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Iam sure your aware of the oft quoted example of the stick in the dark being mistaken for a snake.This is a simple example of how the mind naturally trys to see pattern and meaning in things.So this is the mechanism involved in man concluding there is a god to give meaning to life.
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Or vice versa. You can't argue against God's existence by saying the mind is irrational. If you do that, you are arguing against reason itself. This makes it automatically, de-facto unreasonable to be atheist.
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This is a very important,crucial point you make,its always been argued on this basis,you either have faith or you dont.But if you take into consideration the way the mind developed and the way it functions psychologically,individually and in groups,it can be argued that this is a delusion,just as a mentally ill patient who has a delusion.A conviction he is certain is true,nothing you can say will disprove this fact to him.Some say,whats the problem,if he is happy leave him alone,I have sympathy with this,but that is ok,allowing someone to have a belief which is not true,but what then if their delusion leads them to commit acts which are detrimental to themselves and others.Perhaps Truth is more important in the long run and it is not a good idea for society to accept anything other than that.
Also I would reiterate,iam not an aethiest,I am in a position where Iam reviewing the whole arguement and as I said before,the arguement seems to come out against their being a God,its an uneccassary concept,just a step up from the god of pagan religions.
Note I did not say "faith," or "conviction," I said "conviction based on knowledge and personal experience."
That is, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE comes first, followed by KNOWLEDGE which confirms the experience. When these combine they form CONVICTION; unshakable belief without need for proof. If contrary proof comes to me that either nullifies that EXPERIENCE or that KNOWLEDGE, then my CONVICTION will collapse. Which part of praying to God and giving in charity is detrimental to believers and others?
Now let me ask you a question you say that you have been "seriously" studying evolution. You understand that this implies that all life forms on earth formed out of a primordial ooze, and ones that formed with weaknesses passed on and ones that formed with strengths survived by natural selection. Natural selection is a proven fact of logic that applies not only to animals but also to ideas. If there were a vast number of ideas and only three or four strong ones, in the long run the strong ones would be remembered and the weak ones abandoned (see alchemy, four humors, flat-earth, monarchy, etc.)
So what part of the idea of "God" is so strong that it's survived since, at the very least, the time of Zoroaster, when other ideas have been forgotten? And what makes you think that atheism is going to last while there is certain doubt about it?
http//www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453432.91875.html
http//www.americanthinker.com/2005/03/atheism_in_decline.html
http//www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2803
http//www.refcm.org/RICDiscussions/Science-Scripture/X%20General/atheism_in_decline_everywhere.htm
http//www.washingtontimes.com/news/2005/mar/03/20050303-115733-9519r/No doubt, the idea of "No God" will remain appealing to those seeking to disassociate themselves from The Last Day, but that does not mean that it is correct or that it is predominant, especially when (as you admitted) the existence of God can not be disproven. In light of all this, and all the particle phyics and quests for unified field theories and mandelbrot sets and miraculous Qu'rans (which describe scientific facts before they were even discovered) and the evasive fundamental nature of matter itself... you still deny. Even if you were right and there was no God, it would still be safer for you just to believe (as an insurance policy) just incase there was; if there isn't you have nothing to lose! If God does exist, however, you have everything to lose.
So who are you calling delusional?
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Thankyou for your response,
Personal experience,that is too subjective,we know by the most superficial of studies,that our perceptions can easily be mistaken and cannot be relied on.Our recall,the way we associate one thing with another,our ability to easily misinterprit and draw conclusions without sufficient evidence.
Knowledge,well this seems to be open to interpritation also,so as Iam writing this I feel that it is a bit of a fruitless arguement,in that I accept that the scientific evidence,shows no evidence for God and you the opposite.
Obviously there is no offence intended with the term delusional,it is purely a word to define the phenomena.
There is nothing detremental in giving charity,I dont recall saying otherwise.
Atheism is not a faith,its merely a conclusion and does not preclude all the moral elements that some religions feel they have exclusive use of.
As a matter of fact,if you serve mankind and do your duties,while remaining true to your convictions,if there is a God,you will have served him well,so no insurance required. -
I'm going to be a bit ironic and quote a hadith -
The Prophet said, "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and receive good news because one's good deeds will not make him enter Paradise."
They asked, "Even you, O Allah's Apostle?"
He said, "Even I, unless and until Allah bestows His pardon and Mercy on me."
Okay, everyone here knows you can't assume a hadith is correct. But I like that this one goes against the flow - no one's good deed will allow him to enter paradise - not even the prophet. We all rely on Allah's grace. This is a big link to Christian theology, it's not enough just to do some good things, we need the pardon and mercy of God. And to receive that, we need to believe in God.
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I'm going to be a bit ironic and quote a hadith -
Okay, everyone here knows you can't assume a hadith is correct. But I like that this one goes against the flow - no one's good deed will allow him to enter paradise - not even the prophet. We all rely on Allah's grace. This is a big link to Christian theology, it's not enough just to do some good things, we need the pardon and mercy of God. And to receive that, we need to believe in God.
LOL what hadith,on here?Astafirullah.
What about the hadith about the woman who was kind to a cat,she would go to heavan for that one good deed.
One of the companions was going to suffer in the afterlife,because he wasnt careful when urinating,so said the Prophet,saw.