No God
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i only told you to broaden your study to fields more appropriate to determine Gods existence. You have refused To do this, you are limiting your knowledge.
Please excuse me,but you are again making assumptions in a patronising manner.You have no idea as to the areas I have studied.So please ristrict your comments to pure subject matter.
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Peace all,
But from where would come the laws in this creation? who made the rules?
Are we just an accident in a process?? but even then, who started the process?
Denying the existence of the creator is like denying the creation, which I believe is hard to conceive, it is like denying one's own existence, which means becoming nil. And this doesn?t mean that this creation will stop.
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This is a very important,crucial point you make,its always been argued on this basis,you either have faith or you dont.But if you take into consideration the way the mind developed and the way it functions psychologically,individually and in groups,it can be argued that this is a delusion,just as a mentally ill patient who has a delusion.A conviction he is certain is true,nothing you can say will disprove this fact to him.Some say,whats the problem,if he is happy leave him alone,I have sympathy with this,but that is ok,allowing someone to have a belief which is not true,but what then if their delusion leads them to commit acts which are detrimental to themselves and others.Perhaps Truth is more important in the long run and it is not a good idea for society to accept anything other than that.
Also I would reiterate,iam not an aethiest,I am in a position where Iam reviewing the whole arguement and as I said before,the arguement seems to come out against their being a God,its an uneccassary concept,just a step up from the god of pagan religions.
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Iam sure your aware of the oft quoted example of the stick in the dark being mistaken for a snake.This is a simple example of how the mind naturally trys to see pattern and meaning in things.So this is the mechanism involved in man concluding there is a god to give meaning to life.
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Or vice versa. You can't argue against God's existence by saying the mind is irrational. If you do that, you are arguing against reason itself. This makes it automatically, de-facto unreasonable to be atheist.
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This is a very important,crucial point you make,its always been argued on this basis,you either have faith or you dont.But if you take into consideration the way the mind developed and the way it functions psychologically,individually and in groups,it can be argued that this is a delusion,just as a mentally ill patient who has a delusion.A conviction he is certain is true,nothing you can say will disprove this fact to him.Some say,whats the problem,if he is happy leave him alone,I have sympathy with this,but that is ok,allowing someone to have a belief which is not true,but what then if their delusion leads them to commit acts which are detrimental to themselves and others.Perhaps Truth is more important in the long run and it is not a good idea for society to accept anything other than that.
Also I would reiterate,iam not an aethiest,I am in a position where Iam reviewing the whole arguement and as I said before,the arguement seems to come out against their being a God,its an uneccassary concept,just a step up from the god of pagan religions.
Note I did not say "faith," or "conviction," I said "conviction based on knowledge and personal experience."
That is, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE comes first, followed by KNOWLEDGE which confirms the experience. When these combine they form CONVICTION; unshakable belief without need for proof. If contrary proof comes to me that either nullifies that EXPERIENCE or that KNOWLEDGE, then my CONVICTION will collapse. Which part of praying to God and giving in charity is detrimental to believers and others?
Now let me ask you a question you say that you have been "seriously" studying evolution. You understand that this implies that all life forms on earth formed out of a primordial ooze, and ones that formed with weaknesses passed on and ones that formed with strengths survived by natural selection. Natural selection is a proven fact of logic that applies not only to animals but also to ideas. If there were a vast number of ideas and only three or four strong ones, in the long run the strong ones would be remembered and the weak ones abandoned (see alchemy, four humors, flat-earth, monarchy, etc.)
So what part of the idea of "God" is so strong that it's survived since, at the very least, the time of Zoroaster, when other ideas have been forgotten? And what makes you think that atheism is going to last while there is certain doubt about it?
http//www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/breaking2453432.91875.html
http//www.americanthinker.com/2005/03/atheism_in_decline.html
http//www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2803
http//www.refcm.org/RICDiscussions/Science-Scripture/X%20General/atheism_in_decline_everywhere.htm
http//www.washingtontimes.com/news/2005/mar/03/20050303-115733-9519r/No doubt, the idea of "No God" will remain appealing to those seeking to disassociate themselves from The Last Day, but that does not mean that it is correct or that it is predominant, especially when (as you admitted) the existence of God can not be disproven. In light of all this, and all the particle phyics and quests for unified field theories and mandelbrot sets and miraculous Qu'rans (which describe scientific facts before they were even discovered) and the evasive fundamental nature of matter itself... you still deny. Even if you were right and there was no God, it would still be safer for you just to believe (as an insurance policy) just incase there was; if there isn't you have nothing to lose! If God does exist, however, you have everything to lose.
So who are you calling delusional?
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Thankyou for your response,
Personal experience,that is too subjective,we know by the most superficial of studies,that our perceptions can easily be mistaken and cannot be relied on.Our recall,the way we associate one thing with another,our ability to easily misinterprit and draw conclusions without sufficient evidence.
Knowledge,well this seems to be open to interpritation also,so as Iam writing this I feel that it is a bit of a fruitless arguement,in that I accept that the scientific evidence,shows no evidence for God and you the opposite.
Obviously there is no offence intended with the term delusional,it is purely a word to define the phenomena.
There is nothing detremental in giving charity,I dont recall saying otherwise.
Atheism is not a faith,its merely a conclusion and does not preclude all the moral elements that some religions feel they have exclusive use of.
As a matter of fact,if you serve mankind and do your duties,while remaining true to your convictions,if there is a God,you will have served him well,so no insurance required. -
I'm going to be a bit ironic and quote a hadith -
The Prophet said, "Do good deeds properly, sincerely and moderately, and receive good news because one's good deeds will not make him enter Paradise."
They asked, "Even you, O Allah's Apostle?"
He said, "Even I, unless and until Allah bestows His pardon and Mercy on me."
Okay, everyone here knows you can't assume a hadith is correct. But I like that this one goes against the flow - no one's good deed will allow him to enter paradise - not even the prophet. We all rely on Allah's grace. This is a big link to Christian theology, it's not enough just to do some good things, we need the pardon and mercy of God. And to receive that, we need to believe in God.
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I'm going to be a bit ironic and quote a hadith -
Okay, everyone here knows you can't assume a hadith is correct. But I like that this one goes against the flow - no one's good deed will allow him to enter paradise - not even the prophet. We all rely on Allah's grace. This is a big link to Christian theology, it's not enough just to do some good things, we need the pardon and mercy of God. And to receive that, we need to believe in God.
LOL what hadith,on here?Astafirullah.
What about the hadith about the woman who was kind to a cat,she would go to heavan for that one good deed.
One of the companions was going to suffer in the afterlife,because he wasnt careful when urinating,so said the Prophet,saw. -
You don't need to quote hadith (dont get me started, so full of garbage), the Qu'ran says that those who do not believe are fuel for the hellfire many times. It says that only the forgiveness and mercy of God can save us from it. That doesn't matter to Alan though because he does not believe in God; to him Hell is just a delusion some people have.
Now back to the topic
Thankyou for your response,
Personal experience,that is too subjective,we know by the most superficial of studies,that our perceptions can easily be mistaken and cannot be relied on.Our recall,the way we associate one thing with another,our ability to easily misinterprit and draw conclusions without sufficient evidence.
Knowledge,well this seems to be open to interpritation also,so as Iam writing this I feel that it is a bit of a fruitless arguement,in that I accept that the scientific evidence,shows no evidence for God and you the opposite.
Obviously there is no offence intended with the term delusional,it is purely a word to define the phenomena.
There is nothing detremental in giving charity,I dont recall saying otherwise.
Atheism is not a faith,its merely a conclusion and does not preclude all the moral elements that some religions feel they have exclusive use of.
As a matter of fact,if you serve mankind and do your duties,while remaining true to your convictions,if there is a God,you will have served him well,so no insurance required.Reality and perception are extremely subjective (see relativity) and that is one of the reasons I believe in God. Two other reasons are the nature of reality (what is matter) and perception (what is perception) themselves. I accept that the theory of evolution is probably-most-likely-not-false. It still does not explain reality and perception, though. It explains why we are humans, and perhaps why we can think, but it does not explain what life is or what it is made out of or any of the deepest questions. It's a piece of the big picture, and standing alone it really has nothing to do with God at all (it disproves the "6-day Creation" of the Bible and fundamentalist Christians, but that is all; it doesn't touch God with a 40-ft long pole).
And you're right; this argument is extremely fruitless. It's been around for a long time; probably forever. There hasn't been any definitive conclusion, although atheism had a huge run of success in the 1800s and 1900s with dialectical materialism and the Soviet Union/China. In any event, nothing has been decided in over 200 years of debate on this topic, it's pretty much guaranteed that we wouldn't figure it out on a message board .
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Re No God
? Reply #46 on September 02, 2008, 105023 AM ? Quote
This is a very important,crucial point you make,its always been argued on this basis,you either have faith or you dont.But if you take into consideration the way the mind developed and the way it functions psychologically,individually and in groups,it can be argued that this is a delusion,just as a mentally ill patient who has a delusion.A conviction he is certain is true,nothing you can say will disprove this fact to him.Some say,whats the problem,if he is happy leave him alone,I have sympathy with this,but that is ok,allowing someone to have a belief which is not true,but what then if their delusion leads them to commit acts which are detrimental to themselves and others.Perhaps Truth is more important in the long run and it is not a good idea for society to accept anything other than that.
Also I would reiterate,iam not an aethiest,I am in a position where Iam reviewing the whole arguement
As you can see,despite your claims that iam athiest,I have never said so,to the contrary.
I quoted hadith in response to the previous post,not to you...Alice laughed;"There,s no use trying"she said,"one cannot believe impossible things"
"I daresay you havent had much practice"said the Queen.
"When I was younger,I always did it for half an hour a day.
Why,sometimes Ive believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast"
Lewis Carroll-Adventures in wonderland. -
you called your Creator an unnecessary concept
you're a believer? I understand if you are and are only wording your posts hypothetically; if that is the case then my calling you an atheist was hypothetical as well. Now everythings logical and sensical... right?
also I was replying to the original hadith post by liquiddharma, not you
do you have anything to say about evolution disproving "6-day creation" instead of "God in general" or are you ready to move on to another discussion?
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"you called your Creator an unnecessary concept
you're a believer?"
This is silly tit for tat,I am trying having to have an objective debate,my opening post made my position clear.If God exists,he doesnt seem to fit in with what the monotheistic religions are saying.We seem to be sliding into inventing another religion....
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Peace
How can I do other though in the face of the facts?
Nothing. You are free to believe or disbelieve . If the facts lead you to that conclusion than believe in your reason. You need not look to those to believe in God to believe in your facts. Be secure in your position if it lends to security.
Joe
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I'm going to be a bit ironic and quote a hadith -
Okay, everyone here knows you can't assume a hadith is correct. But I like that this one goes against the flow - no one's good deed will allow him to enter paradise - not even the prophet. We all rely on Allah's grace. This is a big link to Christian theology, it's not enough just to do some good things, we need the pardon and mercy of God. And to receive that, we need to believe in God.
You say we NEED to believe in God,why,what actual differance is it going to make,God is not moved by us and does not require our sacrifices,it moves him not one bit.
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Indeed, it is the other way round, we need to believe in God because we are moved by God, and if we don't believe in him, we won't be moved, and won't make any progress in life, spiritually speaking. He doesn't force us to improve ourselves, if we don't want to.
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Only 20 Aayaats for those who don't believe in Allah
5657 "WE who have created you, why, then, do you not accept the truth?"
Nahnu khalaqnakum falawla tusaddiqoona
(5657)
5658 Have you ever considered that which you emit?
Afaraaytum ma tumnoona
(565
5659 Is it you who create it - or are We the source of its creation?
Aantum takhluqoonahu am nahnu alkhaliqoona
(5659)
5660 We have decreed that death shall be among you but there is nothing to prevent Us
Nahnu qaddarna baynakumu almawta wama nahnu bimasbooqeena
(5660)
5661 from changing the nature of your existence and bringing you into being in a manner unknown to you.
AAala an nubaddila amthalakum wanunshiakum fee ma la taAAlamoona
(5661)
5662 And you are indeed aware of the coming into being in the first instance - why, then, do you not bethink yourselves?
Walaqad AAalimtumu alnnashata aloola falawla tathakkaroona
(5662)
5663 Have you ever considered the seed which you cast upon the soil?
Afaraaytum ma tahruthoona
(5663)
5664 Is it you who cause it to grow - or are We the cause of its growth?
Aantum tazraAAoonahu am nahnu alzzariAAoona
(5664)
5665 were it Our will, We could indeed turn it into chaff, and you would be left to wonder,
Law nashao lajaAAalnahu hutaman fathaltum tafakkahoona
(5665)
5666 ?Verily, we are ruined!
Inna lamughramoona
(5666)
5667 Nay, but we have been deprived!
Bal nahnu mahroomoona
(5667)
5668 Have you ever considered the water which you drink?
Afaraaytumu almaa allathee tashraboona
(566
5669 Is it you who cause it to come down from the clouds - or are We the cause of its coming down?
Aantum anzaltumoohu mina almuzni am nahnu almunziloona
(5669)
5670 were it Our will, We could make it burningly salty and bitter why, then, do you not give thanks?
Law nashao jaAAalnahu ojajan falawla tashkuroona
(5670)
5671 Have you ever considered the fire which you kindle?
Afaraaytumu alnnara allatee tooroona
(5671)
5672 Is it you who have brought into being the tree that serves as its fuel - or are We the cause of its coming into being?
Aantum anshatum shajarataha am nahnu almunshioona
(5672)
5673 It is We who have made it a means to remind, and a comfort for all who are lost and hungry in the wilderness.
Nahnu jaAAalnaha tathkiratan wamataAAan lilmuqweena
(5673)
5674 Extol, then, the limitless glory of thy Sus?tainer?s mighty name!
Fasabbih biismi rabbika alAAatheemi
(5674)
5675 NAY, I call to witness the coming-down in parts
Fala oqsimu bimawaqiAAi alnnujoomi
(5675)
5676 and, behold, this is indeed a most solemn affirmation, if you but knew it!
Wainnahu laqasamun law taAAlamoona AAatheemun
(5676)
5677 Behold, it is a truly noble discourse,
Innahu laquranun kareemun
(5677)
5678 in a well-guarded divine writ
Fee kitabin maknoonin
(567
5679 which none but the pure can touch
La yamassuhu illa almutahharoona
(5679)
5680 a revelation from the Sustainer of all the worlds!
Tanzeelun min rabbi alAAalameena
(5680)
5681 Would you, now, look down with disdain on a tiding like this,
Afabihatha alhadeethi antum mudhinoona
(5681)
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.
Regards,
mmKhan