Happy Ramadan

ayman

Peace Belal,

Ayman, calm down! Do you experience this state of Stress (Fojoor) every Ramadan?
Are you Angry because you are the only so called Moslem (and your Sects) who believes that Ramadan in June and fasting is Ten Days?
Will confused? !that could cause Stress.
Now, my advice to you is to either reevaluate your position, or come up with a logic conclusion that can make sense to you (so you can feel better and make peace with yourself) and maybe Moslem would listen to it.
Now, What does Rammadan Means?

As I said and you admitted, you don't know what "ramadan" means. You should find out what it means instead of wasting your time on empty rhetoric.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Farida,

I assume that you are asking about the proper name Umar (since you capitalized the U). The proper name Umar is meaningless. It is just a meaningless label. It is as meaningless as other proper names such as Farida and Ayman. Hence those names are not translated when we speak in English. As for the common noun, you can see the meanings here

http//www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=

I hope that you can see why it is not surprising that people who don't know what "ramadan" means are clueless about when it occurs because they assume that the word is meaningless and thus completely ignore it. In reality it is not meaningless and the meaning fits perfectly in the context of determining the timing.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman,
I am sorry I should have written "omar"/ but, as there is no capital in the turkish language, dont take it as name but just a an Arabic word and I will appreciate if you could give me its meaning please!!!!
peace
BTW farida means unique and I don't use a capital as you can see above.

ayman

Salaam Ayman,
I am sorry I should have written "omar"/ but, as there is no capital in the turkish language, dont take it as name but just a an Arabic word and I will appreciate if you could give me its meaning please!!!!
peace
BTW farida means unique and I don't use a capital as you can see above.

The word as RSW pointed out means prosporous, full of life, long-living, etc. As with all translations, it would really depend on the context which of the meanings one would use. So it would help if you put it in a sentence.

As for "farida" meaning unique, if you are using it as a common noun then you should translate it in this English conversation like all common nouns. It is only proper names that are not translated. Capitalization is not the main criteria since we don't speak in capital and yet we are able to tell in a conversation a proper name from a common noun. We can tell based on context.

I hope I have answered your question.

Peace,

Ayman

Supernaut

Peace Ayman,

Are you saying we should fast/abstain (from food, sex, und so weiter) in the hottest month of the year instead of a particular month in the lunar calendar which may be a very cool one? If that's the case, it's not really Ramadan here in Pakistan because the weather's improved; it's not so hot anymore.

ayman

Peace Supernaut,

Are you saying we should fast/abstain (from food, sex, und so weiter) in the hottest month of the year instead of a particular month in the lunar calendar which may be a very cool one? If that's the case, it's not really Ramadan here in Pakistan because the weather's improved; it's not so hot anymore.

Unfortunately, as you intuitively concluded, in Pakistan and elsewhere people generally ignore the clear meaning of the word "ramadan". So it is not surprising that sectarians are now fasting a completely random month. The common noun "ramadan" means "scorching" and "shahr" means "full-moon". So 2185 is giving us the marker as the "scorching full-moon" (also known as "red moon" in ancient cultures). This is a well-known universal cosmic phenomenon that occurs near the summer solstice (see my avatar) and that everyone can witness, not some arbitrary month in a manmade calendar. Please see the following article for more details

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/timing.htm

Peace,

Ayman

Supernaut

Peace Ayman,

I did go through it, though after I posted my question, but thanks anyway. And your article is very cool.

farida

The word as RSW pointed out means prosporous, full of life, long-living, etc. As with all translations, it would really depend on the context which of the meanings one would use. So it would help if you put it in a sentence.

I hope I have answered your question.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman

Thank you for addressing my question, the reason I asked this is becasue you are particular with words and their meaning, when you mentioned the second Khalifa Omar in one of your post, how come you called him Omar when he is long dead and can?t be called ?full of life?. Just as you only associate ramadan with scorching heat and would not accept it as a noun.

My opinion is that we always had a lunar calendar and there is a reason why we are supposed to experience abstention in all seasons in a cycle of 30 years. The Qur?an was first revealed during the hot summer time and that is a clue for the Leilatul Qadr and, I believe, as time went by, the month of fasting was given the name Ramadan as it was given that status.

peace

ayman

Peace Farida,

Thank you for addressing my question, the reason I asked this is becasue you are particular with words and their meaning, when you mentioned the second Khalifa Omar in one of your post, how come you called him Omar when he is long dead and can?t be called ?full of life?. Just as you only associate ramadan with scorching heat and would not accept it as a noun.

You don't seem to know the difference between common nouns and proper names. I accept "ramadan" as a common noun not as a proper name. On the other hand, the proper name Omar is meaningless. As you said, we can be sure that people named Omar aren't more full of life than anyone else and that king Omar is long dead. I am also sure that many people named Omar lived a very short life. So as a proper name, Omar is meaningless and in fact it can be the opposite of what it commonly means. Now if you want to take words in 2185 such as "ramadan", "huda", "miskin" or any word in the passage as proper names which are meaningless and could mean the opposite of what is being said so that "ramadan" can be cold and "huda" can be lost and "miskin" can be rich then be my guest and good luck understanding the universal concepts that the god is communicating.

My opinion is that we always had a lunar calendar and there is a reason why we are supposed to experience abstention in all seasons in a cycle of 30 years. The Qur?an was first revealed during the hot summer time and that is a clue for the Leilatul Qadr and, I believe, as time went by, the month of fasting was given the name Ramadan as it was given that status.

Who gave this name Ramadan after the fact and when did he do it? Do you know the name of that person or who he is?

Also, are you talking about Leila the meaningless name or about the common concept of "night"? If you are talking about the common concept then you should translate it because unlike the proper name it is not meaningless. Same goes for "qadr" (measure) and "ramadan" (scorching).

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Farida,

Who gave this name Ramadan after the fact and when did he do it? Do you know the name of that person or who he is?

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman
It could be someone like you but surely he has a bigger following than you will ever have.
All I know is with time people start to give name to events you never know sometime in furture people will think 9/11 was some special day.

peace

ayman

Peace Farida,

It could be someone like you but surely he has a bigger following than you will ever have.
All I know is with time people start to give name to events you never know sometime in furture people will think 9/11 was some special day. peace

Your entire argument hinges on "ramadan" being a meaningless proper name. You admit that this name Ramadan is a name that someone who you don't know named after the fact of the revelation of the great reading. You don't know anything about this proper name or who invented it and all you can give is conjecture from your imagination. I advise you to ponder on this passage and hopefully see that there is a better way instead of empty boasting about number of followers

These are but names that you named, you and your forefathers that the god never authorized. They follow conjecture and what the selves fantasize, while the guidance has come to them from their Lord.

Peace,

Ayman

Umm_Tariq

Peace be upon all,

I'm still fairly new to studying the God's book as it should be studied and understood. Many times I come to this forum to try and find any new information that can help improve my understanding or something that I may have overlooked. I've been a true muslim by the God's permission for a year now and of course, like salat, fasting is an important topic to understand properly. To be honest, I'm a little disheartened by some of these posts, seeing some personal insults fly, which just doesn't aid arriving at the truth. Isn't it the TRUTH that should be of primary importance?

Let me say from the start that I am not trying to defend Br. Ayman per se but after being a sunni for 14 years, being fed so many lies against the God and His messengers, when people present their opinions I'd like to see strong evidence from the reading primarily relying on the meanings of words, context and 'tarteel' arranging similar verses for investigation. Since I am new, I have no particular leaning to anyone as I have not even met anyone here in person I only go by what people present as evidence. For me, since the God stresses often that this is an arabic reading then that tells me that the meanings of the words used in arabic is significant and of primary importance. It is and has proven very easy for people to in usage and the passage of time to convince others that certain words have certain meanings when they don't and have the true meanings forgotten. The God in His mercy, since He promised to protect this message, if one truly wants the real message and one studies the book as He tells us to, we can see clearly which of those words and concepts have become corrupted in people's minds and practice but not in the book.

As far as shahr ramadan is concerned, it seems a quite unjust assessment that the literal arabic word means 'scorching heat' and concepts related but yet the God intended that it would actually occur any time during the year. In my study of the reading thus far, I only find the God to be very precise, since He is the God, not like us humans being vague at times. Does anyone here for example believe it's just to assign an arabic word an english meaning that doesn't fit it literally and has it's own cultural background even if it 'seems' related? Like translating deen as 'religion' as opposed to 'obligation' or ibaadah (from 'abada&#039 as 'worship' instead of 'service/ serving'. Otherwise, what would be the point of the God stressing that it's an arabic reading if we can just understand it how we like or someone else likes?

I agree with Ayman's study not because Br. Ayman did it but because in all fairness he presented an opinion with his evidence and I checked it out myself with the reading and I agree with it and I have no rebuttal for it either. However, that's because my basis is that it's an arabic reading, consistent, not an arab reading nor a sunni reading or whatever. Please let us all be sincere and scholarly in the study of the God's words as it is very serious. We can see how the many sects have gone far astray from abandoning true study of the book. Also, we can disagree, of course so let's just be respectful of each other in that regard. )

Sincerely,
Umm Tariq

farida

Peace be upon all,

I'm still fairly new to studying the God's book as it should be studied and understood. Many times I come to this forum to try and find any new information that can help improve my understanding or something that I may have overlooked. I've been a true muslim by the God's permission for a year now and of course, like salat, fasting is an important topic to understand properly. To be honest, I'm a little disheartened by some of these posts, seeing some personal insults fly, which just doesn't aid arriving at the truth. Isn't it the TRUTH that should be of primary importance?

Salaam umm Tariq,

I understand your frustration with the Sunni mentality, sometime negative experiences, can lead person too much in the opposite direction, and one may end up rejecting even practices, which were applied by the prophet himself and practiced by his companions after him.
Our duty is to investigate in details what was the real practice or when it started to fade away; after all prophet Muhammad was not just a postman, nor was he an ordinary man that his practice would be forgotten as soon as he died. (Here I am talking about practice not hadiths)
Even people who were taken away as young slaves and were forced to forego their religion retained information about their roots so, how come term Ramadan got so messed up so quickly?

As i understand one has to apply logic and look at the wider meaning, fasting is recommended for us "as its better for us" and experiencing fasting through different seasons is a unique experience which only followers of the Quran experience and thus can relate to hunger and thirst in all sorts of weather. We have to understand the essence of fasting; the depth behind this obligation and, as a new member, Kakuta wrote today ?Even Jesus (pbuh) came to bring back the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law?

So yes the language is Arabic but seek the wider meaning. For example we read this verse And had We made it a non-Arabic compilation, they would have said If only its verses were made clear!Non-Arabic and Arabic, sayFor those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.``(Qur`an 4144)

Now if we start to take the literal meaning of the above verse we might be led to believe that deafness is caused by disbelief.

peace

Umm_Tariq

Salam Farida,

"I understand your frustration with the Sunni mentality, sometime negative experiences, can lead person too much in the opposite direction, and one may end up rejecting even practices, which were applied by the prophet himself and practiced by his companions after him.
Our duty is to investigate in details what was the real practice or when it started to fade away; after all prophet Muhammad was not just a postman, nor was he an ordinary man that his practice would be forgotten as soon as he died. (Here I am talking about practice not hadiths)
Even people who were taken away as young slaves and were forced to forego their religion retained information about their roots so, how come term Ramadan got so messed up so quickly?"

(Btw, how do we make a copy of someone's statement in the blue box like I see with everyone?)

I appreciate you sharing your understanding of how to understand Allah's book but I will have to disagree. I didn't mean the sunni mentality per se but the practice of just interpreting Allah's book the way one feels like and not in the least referring to how the God Himself tells us to understand it. For me, the only certainty is in the God's book, not in history books, hadith books nor even dictionaries. I believe that the practices of the Prophet and those who believed with him are truthfully, and without doubt narrated to us in the God's book, I would not reject those. I'm curious, where do you get this expression 'nor was he an ordinary man that his practice would be forgotten as soon as he died'? The God informs us in two verses that he was to tell the people that he was 'only human' like the rest of us so I understand that clearly to mean that he was like the rest of us in every human way. He had to learn from the God what he didn't know like us, he had to ask the God to increase him in knowledge like us, he made mistakes like any human can etc. If you are not talking about hadiths, then those practices are in the book. I do not see that in the book that the term ramadan is messed up at all.

"As i understand one has to apply logic and look at the wider meaning,"

I don't agree that these are the first steps to gain understanding otherwise the God would have said it first. I first follow what the God said pertaining to the fact that He has brought us the truth and the best explanation, that we should arrange the similar verses, that He has not placed any crookedness in it and that overall, it is complete, perfected and fully detailed/ explained."

"fasting is recommended for us "as its better for us" and experiencing fasting through different seasons is a unique experience which only followers of the Quran experience and thus can relate to hunger and thirst in all sorts of weather. We have to understand the essence of fasting; the depth behind this obligation and, as a new member, Kakuta wrote today ?Even Jesus (pbuh) came to bring back the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law?"

The verse about fasting clearly says, "Fasting has been prescribed/ decreed upon you all as it was prescribed/ decreed upon those before you so that perhaps you fear/ are prudent/ careful." I see this as the reason or purpose, since the God said so, and in the end of the next verse the God mentions, "...and that you fast is better for you if you knew." It didn't stop with 'it's better for us' but continued with 'if you knew' so does that mean that we may not know the full significance but of course we should do it anyway? I like to stick to and rely on what the God clearly says, as I can be certain about that. Your statement about fasting the different seasons as it's unique and all, if the God told us that I would believe it but human's words can be rejected. The quote about Jesus, I don't find this statement in the God's book so how can I believe it especially when the God's book clearly quotes Jesus as saying what he came to do? It had nothing to do with 'spirit' which is again a vague term in english that people can understand in different ways.

"So yes the language is Arabic but seek the wider meaning. For example we read this verse And had We made it a non-Arabic compilation, they would have said If only its verses were made clear!Non-Arabic and Arabic, sayFor those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.``(Qur`an 4144)

Now if we start to take the literal meaning of the above verse we might be led to believe that deafness is caused by disbelief."

Sis, the verse is clearly saying that for those who disbelieve, 'there is deafness IN their ears and they are blind to it...". In no way do the words convey a meaning that the deafness is caused by disbelief. Back 14 years ago when I first read the sunni english translation of the meanings of the reading I thought why is the God so against deaf people?! ;D I knew it would take me some time to understand everything properly but soon enough I realized in these verses deafness is used clearly in the allegorical sense not literal otherwise there would be a contradiction in the book. The context makes it clear especially if you put the relevant verses all together. Also note the first part of this verse, they would complain that why aren't it's verses made clear. This is another sign to me that the God intends this book to be clear right away from the language itself and more so thereafter when one applies His method otherwise we could use it as an excuse to disbelieve since 'it's not clear'.

About the word 'shahr' why I agree that it takes it's old or original arabic meaning of 'full moon' in the reading is when I do 'tarteel' of the verses and I found these verses as well "Verily we caused it to come down in/ within a blessed night..." Dukhan3 and also "Verily we caused it to come down in/ within the night of qadr." al-Qadr1 When we put these two, talking about the sending down of the book/ quran with 2185, the same subject, these verses clearly say in a night and not 'nights'. If shahr meant month then these verses would seem like a contradiction. He would have said during 'nights' or something to that effect since this book is consistent with itself. This to me gives weight that shahr means 'full moon' in the reading, at least pertaining to this topic. Is there something wrong with taking the literal meanings first? Otherwise then where do we begin? To me that is what leaves the door wide open for anyone to say what they want and try to make the book look like that's what it's saying, like the sunnis and others. The God addressed this in Surah 37. The crux of the book has verses which are muhkamaat and the others are mutashaabihaat, resembling. To me, the God is telling us that those who truly study the book know that to arrive at the proper understanding of these latter verses one must arrange them and not just take some here and some there. We can do this with all of the contents of the book.

This tarteel of the book is a good example of how people can interpret the book in anyway. As a sunni we were always taught that tarteel is the long recitation of the reading, especially at night in 'salat' when the verse in question doesn't even mention the word salat in relation to this. I had never known there was another meaning of arranging similar things until after becoming a true muslim. From where did they get this meaning, out of the air? I find it in my contemporary dictionaries which I know are influenced by sunnism but the other meaning is still listed. What is wrong with using this 'literal' meaning first and foremost, they totally discredit it. In all the 14 years I was doing their tarteel I didn't even learn HALF as much as I have with the real tarteel in these past months subhanallah.

A good example is with the timings of the salat, the first verse 11114 desribes them in physical detail only. If someone where to stop there there can be alot of confusion. In the next verse, 1778 the God gives more clarity to restrict what the first one is saying since His verses are consistent. Even with this verse, not taking the other with it as tarteel, the sunnis say that 'duluk ash-shams' is referring to when the sun inclines from noon thus to include their false salat ul-zhurh, salat ul-asr and salat ul-maghrib. I was shocked that when I looked in my contemporary dictionary and they don't even list such a meaning, where did they get it from, are they arab or not? Then the third verse 2458 refers to these 2 times by using noun phrases, salat ul-fajr and salat-isha. At least, if there was truly a salat ul-zhuhr as the sunnis and others claim, the God would have used mention of it in this verse as a marker as well to certain activities like He did the other two. Do you see what I mean? This is why I am certain we should start with the literal and then take it from there. Words that have several meanings, you have to start with one and if the context doesn't allow it then you go to the next correct? As well, our biggest aid is the tarteel that the God directed us all to as shown by the simple example of the salat times. However, this is only my humble opinion based on the God's verses.

I hope you accept what I have written in sincerity. This is the understanding that I have come to after much study and reflection by putting into practice the God's advice, which I fully trust. I am happy to continue any discussion because I am only trying to learn.

Sincerely,
Umm Tariq

Samia

Salaam Umm Tariq

(Btw, how do we make a copy of someone's statement in the blue box like I see with everyone?)

If you want it like this, click on "quote" on the top of the right side of the post you want to quote, choose whatever part you want of it and delete the rest. But make sure to keep the second "quote" at the end of the quoted post without deletion.

If you want it like this

(Btw, how do we make a copy of someone's statement in the blue box like I see with everyone?)

Copy the part you want from the post, click on the second icon to your right on the second line of icons on the "post reply" page. You will have this "quote""quote". Paste your copied part between the two s, or just type and paste your copied part between them (but write quote instead of quot'. If I write "quote" between these square brackets, it will change into a real quote and will not show the way I want it)

farida

Salam Farida,

I'm curious, where do you get this expression 'nor was he an ordinary man that his practice would be forgotten as soon as he died'? The God informs us in two verses that he was to tell the people that he was 'only human' like the rest of us so I understand that clearly to mean that he was like the rest of us in every human way. He had to learn from the God what he didn't know like us, he had to ask the God to increase him in knowledge like us, he made mistakes like any human can etc. If you are not talking about hadiths, then those practices are in the book. I do not see that in the book that the term ramadan is messed up at all.

Salaam Umm Tariq,

Yes prophet Mohammed was human like us but, as I said he was not an ordinary man no prophets were ordinary men; they were chosen for their superiority, including the mother of prophet Jesus 342 Free_MindsAnd the angels said 'O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over the women of the worlds.'

I don't agree that these are the first steps to gain understanding otherwise the God would have said it first. I first follow what the God said pertaining to the fact that He has brought us the truth and the best explanation, that we should arrange the similar verses, that He has not placed any crookedness in it and that overall, it is complete, perfected and fully detailed/ explained."

We are here to learn from each other, but that does not mean we must agree with each other, and I respect your disagreement, but as I said "As i understand one has to apply logic and look at the wider meaning," This is how I have learned and I never did as much indepth studies as you have done from Sunni schools nor did I ever agree with the sunni way of interpratation I was arguing with them whenever I applied logic. I have been branded a rebellious person by many around me but the good thing is that many undestood what I said but still stick to their ways.

The verse about fasting clearly says, "Fasting has been prescribed/ decreed upon you all as it was prescribed/ decreed upon those before you so that perhaps you fear/ are prudent/ careful." I see this as the reason or purpose, since the God said so, and in the end of the next verse the God mentions, "...and that you fast is better for you if you knew." .

As you must have noticed I did not quote the verse and simply gave my view, but if I quote the verses from the Qur'an I like to go step by step, as you have done above.

I like to stick to and rely on what the God clearly says, as I can be certain about that. Your statement about fasting the different seasons as it's unique and all, if the God told us that I would believe it but human's words can be rejected.

My way of learning the message is to see the pratical implication of the message and, to me there is lot of logic behind fasting in a cycle of thirty years.
I have always felt it is unique, as when ever I dicussed with jews or Christains how we experice hunger and thirst in all seasons and feel how it can effect our moods system and how in the summer we appreciate water as a most valuble gift whereas in the winter fasts its feeling cold in the stomach and so on so, by all means you should stick to your way, but I was sharing how I see this as a unique experience and to be able to live long enought to experience the whole cycle is an added blessing.

The quote about Jesus, I don't find this statement in the God's book so how can I believe it especially when the God's book clearly quotes Jesus as saying what he came to do? It had nothing to do with 'spirit' which is again a vague term in english that people can understand in different ways

I did not quote Jesus but put a quote from a new member on this forum; this is what I wroteWe have to understand the essence of fasting; the depth behind this obligation and, as a new member, Kakuta wrote today ?Even Jesus (pbuh) came to bring back the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law? and I agreed with her wider meaning.

It didn't stop with 'it's better for us' but continued with 'if you knew' so does that mean that we may not know the full significance but of course we should do it anyway

Certainly I always say we learn throughout life and ithe learning will only stop as we stop breathing.

Sis, the verse is clearly saying that for those who disbelieve, 'there is deafness IN their ears and they are blind to it...". In no way do the words convey a meaning that the deafness is caused by disbelief. Back 14 years ago when I first read the sunni english translation of the meanings of the reading I thought why is the God so against deaf people?! ;D I knew it would take me some time to understand everything properly but soon enough I realized in these verses deafness is used clearly in the allegorical sense not literal otherwise there would be a contradiction in the book. The context makes it clear especially if you put the relevant verses all together. .

I have always understood the allegorical sense of this verse but, as I said, those who take the literal meaning can misunderstand and you confirmed it "Back 14 years ago when I first read the sunni english translation of the meanings of the reading I thought why is the God so against deaf people?! "

Also note the first part of this verse, they would complain that why aren't it's verses made clear. This is another sign to me that the God intends this book to be clear right away from the language itself and more so thereafter when one applies His method otherwise we could use it as an excuse to disbelieve since 'it's not clear'

I do not believe that all the verses of the Quran are straightforwardly understood by ordinary people; to understand we really have to contemplate and do a lot of thinking and research and only then its starts to become clear

About the word 'shahr' why I agree that it takes it's old or original arabic meaning of 'full moon' in the reading is when I do 'tarteel' of the verses and I found these verses as well "Verily we caused it to come down in/ within a blessed night..." Dukhan3 and also "Verily we caused it to come down in/ within the night of qadr." al-Qadr1 When we put these two, talking about the sending down of the book/ quran with 2185, the same subject, these verses clearly say in a night and not 'nights'. If shahr meant month then these verses would seem like a contradiction. He would have said during 'nights' or something to that effect since this book is consistent with itself. This to me gives weight that shahr means 'full moon' in the reading, at least pertaining to this topic. Is there something wrong with taking the literal meanings first? Otherwise then where do we begin? To me that is what leaves the door wide open for anyone to say what they want and try to make the book look like that's what it's saying, like the sunnis and others. The God addressed this in Surah 37. The crux of the book has verses which are muhkamaat and the others are mutashaabihaat, resembling. To me, the God is telling us that those who truly study the book know that to arrive at the proper understanding of these latter verses one must arrange them and not just take some here and some there. We can do this with all of the contents of the book.

I am sorry I can't really understand what you are trying to explain here but if we are to take the literal meanings from the old origional arabic then i would like you to pay attention to our learned member Arnab who explained Nisa and rajul
"There are times in most people's life where they are either rajul or nisa.....
when ill or wounded....they are nisa....and rajul must take care of them.
When they recover they are once again rajul. ....The meanings all concur and are consistent and DO NOT mean a FEMALE or a WOMAN. However if as we read the Qur?an nisa is used for women even if the litral meaning is not a female. So one has to read the whole context as you do always and then arrive at a conclusion. "

and if we understand this version we would need to apply the meaning in its context and this could change a lot of views

This tarteel of the book is a good example of how people can interpret the book in anyway. As a sunni we were always taught that tarteel is the long recitation of the reading, especially at night in 'salat' when the verse in question doesn't even mention the word salat in relation to this. I had never known there was another meaning of arranging similar things until after becoming a true muslim. From where did they get this meaning, out of the air? I find it in my contemporary dictionaries which I know are influenced by sunnism but the other meaning is still listed. What is wrong with using this 'literal' meaning first and foremost, they totally discredit it. In all the 14 years I was doing their tarteel I didn't even learn HALF as much as I have with the real tarteel in these past months subhanallah
.

I am so impressed with your experiences but you are talking to someone who does not understand what is meant by "tarteel" '(

A good example is with the timings of the salat, the first verse 11114 desribes them in physical detail only. If someone where to stop there there can be alot of confusion. In the next verse, 1778 the God gives more clarity to restrict what the first one is saying since His verses are consistent. Even with this verse, not taking the other with it as tarteel, the sunnis say that 'duluk ash-shams' is referring to when the sun inclines from noon thus to include their false salat ul-zhurh, salat ul-asr and salat ul-maghrib. I was shocked that when I looked in my contemporary dictionary and they don't even list such a meaning, where did they get it from, are they arab or not? Then the third verse 2458 refers to these 2 times by using noun phrases, salat ul-fajr and salat-isha. At least, if there was truly a salat ul-zhuhr as the sunnis and others claim, the God would have used mention of it in this verse as a marker as well to certain activities like He did the other two. Do you see what I mean? This is why I am certain we should start with the literal and then take it from there. Words that have several meanings, you have to start with one and if the context doesn't allow it then you go to the next correct? As well, our biggest aid is the tarteel that the God directed us all to as shown by the simple example of the salat times. However, this is only my humble opinion based on the God's verses
.

Why do we have to go on and on about how the sunni believe on this site; the reason we are here is because we understand the message differently from the sunni school and we like to understand it as it is stated in the Qur'an, but that does not mean that we have to change all that was practiced by the prophet and his nearnest companions.
Can you give a good reason why we should believe that the companions of the prophet Mohammad fasted in the month of July for ten days and if so when did it all change ???

I hope you accept what I have written in sincerity. This is the understanding that I have come to after much study and reflection by putting into practice the God's advice, which I fully trust. I am happy to continue any discussion because I am only trying to learn.

Likewise

peace

Raj-ah

Salaam

Mr. ayman and all

Prophet ayman is still prisoner of proper and common nouns, sad to see such an intelligent person stuck up in this trash, purposely or unpurposely, still i am guessing.

A friend of mine lives in Haakaido, and there is no month of scroooooching heat so is he exempted from fasting?, please answer him in detail he will be a very happy man and will love to join your cult.

Umm_Tariq

Salam Farida,

"Yes prophet Mohammed was human like us but, as I said he was not an ordinary man no prophets were ordinary men; they were chosen for their superiority, including the mother of prophet Jesus 342 Free_MindsAnd the angels said 'O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over the women of the worlds.'"

This is strange, you agree with what the God said but yet you disagree? Nice to know that this is your opinion and is not what the God said in His book, "as I said he was not an ordinary man no prophets were ordinary men; they were chosen for their superiority". This is the complaint I have overall, when people present opinions clearly not based on the God's book but want to propagate them as if they are such, I can't agree with that.

"As you must have noticed I did not quote the verse and simply gave my view, but if I quote the verses from the Qur'an I like to go step by step, as you have done above."

I would like to request that you do more of the latter so we can clearly see different understandings BASED on the READING to help further true understanding. That is what helps me.

"My way of learning the message is to see the pratical implication of the message and, to me there is lot of logic behind fasting in a cycle of thirty years.
I have always felt it is unique, as when ever I dicussed with jews or Christains how we experice hunger and thirst in all seasons and feel how it can effect our moods system and how in the summer we appreciate water as a most valuble gift whereas in the winter fasts its feeling cold in the stomach and so on so, by all means you should stick to your way, but I was sharing how I see this as a unique experience and to be able to live long enought to experience the whole cycle is an added blessing."

My issue is that if you start with logic and 'wider meanings' before the starting point of the 'actual' meanings then how can you be certain of the 'truth' of a particular message? How can we be sure we are doing what the god asks correctly without actually referring to His words? Very strange again. You say "My way of learning the message is to see the practical implication of the message" so how do you do this without relying on the actual message first? Then what do you see as the meaning behind the god mentioning that this is 'an arabic reading'?

I did not quote Jesus but put a quote from a new member on this forum; this is what I wroteWe have to understand the essence of fasting; the depth behind this obligation and, as a new member, Kakuta wrote today ?Even Jesus (pbuh) came to bring back the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law? and I agreed with her wider meaning.

I knew you weren't quoting him directly especially like I mentioned, this statement is not confirmed in the god's book. Since you 'agreed with her wider meaning' per se, which she was attributing to Jesus wrongfully, that's what I made issue with. You are bringing it to support your stance but yet where in the god's book is this statement confirmed to be true in the first place?

"I have always understood the allegorical sense of this verse but, as I said, those who take the literal meaning can misunderstand and you confirmed it "Back 14 years ago when I first read the sunni english translation of the meanings of the reading I thought why is the God so against deaf people?! "

This is an example of what I mean. We start with the literal meanings and then take it from there. After more study it became apparent what the god meant but I wouldn't just start jumping to conclusions without relying first on the actual meanings. I believe that this must be the 'starting' point based on the god telling us this is an arabic reading, an arabic reading so that perhaps you think/ use intelligence (ta'qilun), etc. I try to beware of being of those who feel that the book didn't come with what they desire so they either reject it outright or try to change it by distorting meanings and context. So understanding starts with the words themselves.

"I am sorry I can't really understand what you are trying to explain here but if we are to take the literal meanings from the old origional arabic then i would like you to pay attention to our learned member Arnab who explained Nisa and rajul "

Sorry I wasn't clear enough. ( I did mention that tarteel has the meaning of arranging similar things but it didn't come across clear enough. My whole point was about using this method, based on, 734 , to make sure and aid someone in arriving at the correct meaning of the words and concepts used in the great reading after beginning with the literal meanings of the words themselves. If you noticed, I actually said 'old' OR 'orginal' arabic as I'm not sure which is the best way to describe it. For example, a meaning of a word could be considered old but it's not the original meaning or the meaning intended in the reading, to know for sure we need comtemplation and the tarteel of the relevant verses. I had never heard this about nisa and rajul but I will look into it. Thanks.

"Why do we have to go on and on about how the sunni believe on this site; the reason we are here is because we understand the message differently from the sunni school and we like to understand it as it is stated in the Qur'an, "

I was giving an example of what I was referring to, about the issue of those who don't really want to refer to the exact text as is but want to refer to something else and then make it 'look like' the text is saying the same thing. My complaint was seeing similar behavior amongst believers on this site.

"but that does not mean that we have to change all that was practiced by the prophet and his nearnest companions. Can you give a good reason why we should believe that the companions of the prophet Mohammad fasted in the month of July for ten days and if so when did it all change Huh?"

Like I mentioned before, all that the god's book tells us about the 'actions and sayings' of the prophet and those who believed with him is true and precise and we can take it as examples for us. A good reason that I believe and am convinced that the prophet and the believers with him fasted shahr ramadan is because that's what the god commanded them to do. The meaning of shahr as full moon is noted as a correct arabic meaning and that meaning fits in the verses of the book and doesn't leave a detail missing like some translaters add in the verse 2185, like (new moon of), when they want to take the meaning of shahr as 'month' which doesn't have a consistent count of it's days as well. The god Himself informs us that His book is consistent and precise so we must take that into consideration. Using 'month' as the meaning of shahr makes certain verses not precise like this one and 'man' has to add something to make it precise. I have a big issue with that. Since ramadan also has a clear arabic meaning that fits in the reading and adds to this verse, to the clarity, completeness and precision of this verse and its command I will accept that and I have found nothing in the reading to contradict it. Can you give a good reason for rejecting these meanings based on the reading? I personally cannot put more trust in other books nor people's practices that want to speak of this topic and they narrate something different and arbitrary that can't be CONFIRMED with the reading. When it all changed was as soon as people wanted to disbelieve and weren't pleased with the god's book as is. The god tells us in the reading that even during the time of the prophet some of those around him were displeased with/ denying some of the book. It's his-tory from there.

Another good reason is that if we take the people's practice today of using a lunar timing of the year and the month arbitrarily named 'Ramadan' continually advances and changes, then that also changes the 4 forbidden months which would make killing in the real 4 that don't change permissible. That can't be ignored and the god already condemned those who played around with the 13th full moon only to make a forbidden month permissible sometimes. How would you justify doing that?

Lastly I don't agree referring to this group of people as 'the prophet's companions' since the god doesn't refer to them as such and there is much wisdom in that of course. He always calls them the believers or the believers with him (the prophet) stressing their belief. A companion can be a disbeliever. Also, I have seen how the sunnis, by making up this title didn't stop there but have made up all kinds of rulings referring to this group because of this, putting them as well almost on an equal footing with the God.

Again I hope you take this in all sincerity. I also hope that it's more clear now what I am making an issue with, it's nothing personal. I eagerly await your reply.

Umm Tariq

farida

Salam Farida,

This is strange, you agree with what the God said but yet you disagree? Nice to know that this is your opinion and is not what the God said in His book, "as I said he was not an ordinary man no prophets were ordinary men; they were chosen for their superiority". This is the complaint I have overall, when people present opinions clearly not based on the God's book but want to propagate them as if they are such, I can't agree with that.

Salaam

342 Free_MindsAnd the angels said 'O Mary, God has selected you and cleansed you, and He has selected you over the women of the worlds.'" This is one example for now.

However you would agree that there are degrees of intellegnce in ordinary people which make some above other and and remeber Syatan is more intellegent than many ordinary peopel do you really think he wil leave you alone just becasue you follow arabic dictiornary ???

My issue is that, if you start with logic and 'wider meanings' before the starting point of the 'actual' meanings, how can you be certain of the 'truth' of a particular message? How can we be sure we are doing what the God asks correctly, without actually referring to His words? Very strange again. You say "My way of learning the message is to see the practical implication of the message" so how do you do this without relying on the actual message first? Then what do you see as the meaning behind the god mentioning that this is 'an arabic reading'?

'an arabic reading'; not according to Ayman's interpretations.

The meaning of shahr as full moon is noted as a correct arabic meaning and that meaning fits in the verses of the book and doesn't leave a detail missing like some translaters add in the verse 2185, like (new moon of), when they want to take the meaning of shahr as 'month' which doesn't have a consistent count of it's days as well. The god Himself informs us that His book is consistent and precise so we must take that into consideration. Using 'month' as the meaning of shahr makes certain verses not precise like this one and 'man' has to add something to make it precise. I have a big issue with that. Since ramadan also has a clear arabic meaning that fits in the reading and adds to this verse, to the clarity, completeness and precision of this verse and its command I will accept that and I have found nothing in the reading to contradict it.

Please read my coming posts to Ayman.

Can you give a good reason for rejecting these meanings based on the reading? . How would you justify doing that?

I REJECT Aymans version of the reading and you can read my post to him for justification.

Lastly I don't agree referring to this group of people as 'the prophet's companions' since the god doesn't refer to them as such and there is much wisdom in that of course. He always calls them the believers or the believers with him (the prophet) stressing their belief. A companion can be a disbeliever. Also, I have seen how the sunnis, by making up this title didn't stop there but have made up all kinds of rulings referring to this group because of this, putting them as well almost on an equal footing with the God.

Point taken, I should have said the early Khalifah, who arranged the months of the calendar

Again I hope you take this in all sincerity. I also hope that it's more clear now what I am making an issue with, it's nothing personal. I eagerly await your reply.

I hope you too take my responses in all sincerity and clear your heart from your previous experiences of sunniism and then reflect otherwise, or you may end up having jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Best regards
peace

Umm_Tariq

Peace Farida,

Since joining this forum, I have been trying to do as our Lord makes mention of in this verse "Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones the God has guided and those are people of understanding." 3918

I wanted to look into this topic more and have read what all had contributed until I realized alot was being presented not being based on the reading and that's why I posted my initial post, to post a complaint. It seems to me that you are not really hearing what I am saying and have not presented any real evidence for your views based on the reading so I will reject them because of that. It seems that you are taking offense to ANY who want to begin with the literal meanings of the words that our Lord has chosen to use and are ascribing that somehow to Ayman so you can reject it. That's your choice but you have no right to present this method as falsehood just because you have something against Ayman. I summarized for you in an earlier post what I base my method on from verses in the reading itself and you still have not shown from the reading why you choose to interpret the god's book the way you do. I believe that it's the god's mercy to us to tell us how to approach His words and I have found that it works and increases me in belief and trust in Him. The words in the reading mean what they mean, we have to do the investigating in all sincerity without just making up stuff. I will look out for your post because I am not close-minded but I will be looking for clear evidence based on the god's book with His clear words.

As for now, we do not need to continue this discussion because I don't find it furthering my understanding of the reading. I hope there are clear answers to my questions in your coming post.

Umm Tariq

farida

Peace Farida,

Since joining this forum, I have been trying to do as our Lord makes mention of in this verse "Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones the God has guided and those are people of understanding." 3918

Umm Tariq

Salaam umm Tariq,
Indeed!!!and I have been reading all arguments from all sides, including Bilalhammed's and Ayman's, and I found the origin of the pagan Summer Solsticese. I pointed that out to him. Do you expect me to accept his version of the Qur'an just because you find it acceptable?

I wanted to look into this topic more and have read what all had contributed until I realized alot was being presented not being based on the reading and that's why I posted my initial post, to post a complaint. It seems to me that you are not really hearing what I am saying and have not presented any real evidence for your views based on the reading so I will reject them because of that.

By all means.

It seems that you are taking offense to ANY who want to begin with the literal meanings of the words that our Lord has chosen to use and are ascribing that somehow to Ayman so you can reject it. That's your choice but you have no right to present this method as falsehood just because you have something against Ayman.

I have nothing personal against Ayman, but yes I object to his version which originates from pagan traditions and if it is acceptable to you, then its your choice; a shift from sunnism to this
Solstice, Midsummer or Litha means a stopping or standing still of the sun. It is the longest day of the year and the time when the sun is at its maximum elevation.
This date has had spiritual significance for thousands of years as humans have been amazed by the great power of the sun. The Celts celebrated with bonfires that would add to the sun's energy, Christians placed the feast of St John the Baptist towards the end of June and it is also the festival of Li, the Chinese Goddess of light.

I summarized for you in an earlier post what I base my method on from verses in the reading itself and you still have not shown from the reading why you choose to interpret the god's book the way you do. I believe that it's the god's mercy to us to tell us how to approach His words and I have found that it works and increases me in belief and trust in Him.

Why I choose to interpret the god's book is my business, but I am not imposing it on others and not asking anyone to follow my method. I am answerable to Allah for my approach not to you. We in our own way approach God and we all have our direct individual understanding and, those who have, often find that in response their belief grows stronger and they have no one else to trust but God.

The words in the reading mean what they mean, we have to do the investigating in all sincerity without just making up stuff. I will look out for your post because I am not close-minded but I will be looking for clear evidence based on the god's book with His clear words.

I have not made up any stuff; I have given you links like this one http//www.candlegrove.com/solstice.html#turta
Many, many cultures the world over perform solstice ceremonies. At their root an ancient fear that the failing light would never return unless humans intervened with anxious vigil or antic celebration

As for now, we do not need to continue this discussion because I don't find it furthering my understanding of the reading. I hope there are clear answers to my questions in your coming post
.

Sure!!

peace