salat timing

rsw

There are parts of prayer which are absolute proof. If any of these parts are not fulfilled, the prayer is rendered null or void. And thus must be repeated.

I don't see any clear statements which declare the prayers "null and void" when we don't say those specific words. Actually, doesn't the Qu'ran say that GOD would never make our faith of no effect? Also, why "must be repeated?" This implies that the prayers are compulsory, but, I thought the Qu'ran said there is no compulsion in religion?

anthonywallace

I don't see any clear statements which declare the prayers "null and void" when we don't say those specific words. Actually, doesn't the Qu'ran say that GOD would never make our faith of no effect? Also, why "must be repeated?" This implies that the prayers are compulsory, but, I thought the Qu'ran said there is no compulsion in religion?

The God commands you to say the affirmation after making intention for your prayer. Do you see it in 17110-111...And to pray to Him....1082

If you do not affirm that you are indeed praying to the one who did not take a son, nor has a partner in soverinty, nor has ally out of weakness....

You might fall into idol worship in His presence...

Alot of people pray, but some of their prayers are nothin but noise and aversion....Why? Because they nullify their prayers by seting up partners in Gods service...And they praise others and set up equals with Him...While the thanks be to God...

You call on your Lord out of fear and want...And do not set up any partner in His service...And be aware of God whom you ask about, and the relatives...

anthonywallace

And how can your prayer be valid if you dont pray?

You have to pray/salat in order to be of those who pray... Thus if u dont pray then you didnt pray....so your prayer is not valid...ect..

rsw

The God commands you to say the affirmation after making intention for your prayer. Do you see it in 17110-111...And to pray to Him....1082

I have read those verses, they do not say to say them as an affirmation at the beginning of prayer; they simply say "SAYCall on GOD..." etc. There are many verses which begin with the command to "SAY," why did you choose these two instead of the hundreds of others? Also, if I followed your command to use this affirmation at the beginning of my prayer wouldn't I be setting YOU up as a partner with GOD, and thus falling into idol worship?

I do pray, but it is nothing like what you describe. I did not settle on my prayer habit without carefully considering the clear statements in the Qu'ran; and I find it hard to believe that my prayers are null because I am not opening them with 'magic word' recitations. Actually, the idea of a prayer being 'null' is completely absurd to me, GOD hears everything we say, and when we speak to HIM, HE listens, regardless of whether we are worshiping HIM, asking HIM for help, etc. Even ablution is unnecessary; the Qu'ran says it is only recommended so that GOD can complete His favor on us, that we might be thankful. There is no compulsion in religion, etc.

nerspi

peace, all)

We spend so much time debating when or how to pray, instead of embracing the whole idea of prayer itself and realizing how blessed we are to have the opportunity to connect with the Almighty God, Creator of life and death.

bravo
i totally agree that it's not HOW we pray, rather the goal, the purpose, the end result of it.

You might fall into idol worship in His presence...

slow down there

you make it seem that God is so strict He wants us to be like robots, to say this and that like this and that to move like this and that... lets be reminded that God does not need anything,
i'm sure if He wanted such a thing He could have created special beings just for that.
but quran was sent to us for our benefit, everything in it is for us, to develope ourselves, to learn, to observe, to grow.
it wasn't sent 'cause God needed to feel big and important that He'd have to prescribe certain form of a ritual that needs to be done exactly 1 way and if 1 detail missed, bang, nullified. c'mon now.

And how can your prayer be valid if you dont pray?

You have to pray/salat in order to be of those who pray... Thus if u dont pray then you didnt pray....so your prayer is not valid...ect..

how do you know he doesn't pray/establish the connection?

besides, it is shown in our daily lives, in how we behave, in our development.

rsw

it wasn't sent 'cause God needed to feel big and important that He'd have to prescribe certain form of a ritual that needs to be done exactly 1 way and if 1 detail missed, bang, nullified. c'mon now.

In support of this notion, the Qu'ran explicity tells us that God is not in need of our prayers. He is free of need, Self-sustaining. It is us who need Him, and it is us who need to worship Him, He does not need our worship. The prayers are to maintain our connection to Him, to help us avoid evil, etc. It's for us, not God. Not following a ritual formula designed by someone else is neither going to make that connection stronger or weaker (and why should we obey that which neither helps or hinders us? The Qu'ran comes together!). If the ritual works for anyone in maintaining their connection it is a Good Thing (tm) for them, but they should not seek to impose their rituals on others. I think the Qu'ran is pretty clear on people who impose their beliefs on others, too.

Also, as far as this topic goes I'm surprised to find I'm essentially in complete agreement with you and dotty concerning salat. that never happens! lol

anthonywallace

I have read those verses, they do not say to say them as an affirmation at the beginning of prayer; they simply say "SAYCall on GOD..." etc. There are many verses which begin with the command to "SAY," why did you choose these two instead of the hundreds of others? Also, if I followed your command to use this affirmation at the beginning of my prayer wouldn't I be setting YOU up as a partner with GOD, and thus falling into idol worship?

I do pray, but it is nothing like what you describe. I did not settle on my prayer habit without carefully considering the clear statements in the Qu'ran; and I find it hard to believe that my prayers are null because I am not opening them with 'magic word' recitations. Actually, the idea of a prayer being 'null' is completely absurd to me, GOD hears everything we say, and when we speak to HIM, HE listens, regardless of whether we are worshiping HIM, asking HIM for help, etc. Even ablution is unnecessary; the Qu'ran says it is only recommended so that GOD can complete His favor on us, that we might be thankful. There is no compulsion in religion, etc.

17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your communion, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.

The word "and" means to say this after making intention for prayer... These verses are " salat " plain and simple...And this verse is proof...weather you choose to say it or not to...However, if u choose to only observe 2 ( see above ), without saying the affirmation, you have prayed...but you didnt praise or say the affirmation...Thus, your prayer is valid, but is lacking....ect.....

Also many verses are commands to say certain things at certain times and certain situations,ect...

And whoever obeys God and His messenger will be amonst the upright, and the martys,and the blessed from the prophets and pious peiople of old...

I tell you for certain, that anyone who believes in my message and the one who sent me has already went from death to life...

And I showed you the absolute proofs from Quran to confirm this...

anthonywallace

peace, all)
bravo

you make it seem that God is so strict He wants us to be like robots, to say this and that like this and that to move like this and that... lets be reminded that God does not need anything,
i'm sure if He wanted such a thing He could have created special beings just for that.
but quran was sent to us for our benefit, everything in it is for us, to develope ourselves, to learn, to observe, to grow.
it wasn't sent 'cause God needed to feel big and important that He'd have to prescribe certain form of a ritual that needs to be done exactly 1 way and if 1 detail missed, bang, nullified. c'mon now.

how do you know he doesn't pray/establish the connection?

besides, it is shown in our daily lives, in how we behave, in our development.

God did not creat you except to serve Him...

Does God not command one to say this and say that and do this and do that at this time ect...?? Sure He does...

17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your communion, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.

And for every nation He has established certain rites that they must fullfil...

I didnt say he didnt observe the prayers...

mmkhan

Salaaman Anthony,

17110 Say Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names. And do not be too loud in making your communion, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.

This translation is incorrect. It does not mean "Loud nor quite", if so it will be said as "wa laa tajhar bil qawl" as in 207

Please refer. 17110 talks about displaying of Salaat.

Regards,
mmKhan

anthonywallace

Salaaman Anthony,

This translation is incorrect. It does not mean "Loud nor quite", if so it will be said as "wa laa tajhar bil qawl" as in 207

Please refer. 17110 talks about displaying of Salaat.

Regards,
mmKhan

O.k. Well displaying of salat....And say Praise be to the One who did not take a son, ect.......................

anthonywallace

969 Have you seen the one who deters, A servant from praying ? Have you seen if he was being guided, Or he ordered righteousness? Have you seen if he lied and turned away? Did he not know that God can see? Alas, if he does not cease, We will strike the frontal lobe. A frontal lobe which lies and errs. So let him call on his supporter. We will call on the guardians. So do not obey him, prostrate and come near.

7205 And get down upon your kneez and remember your Lord in private, dawn and evening at sunset. And do not be of the neglectful.

17110 And do not be too loud in making your communion, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.

anthonywallace

hail hail hail Praise be to God who did not take a son, nor does He have a partner in soverinty, nor does He have ally out of weakness." pr hail hail hail hail

2238 And dedicate the prayers;
whithout once missing.
And kneel and pray
to God Almighty apologetically.

hail pr & pr hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail hail pr hail hail

rsw

if we pray directly to God why isn't your affirmation addressing God directly (like Dozens Of other prayers in quran do)? it looks like something we are supposed to say when as a testimony upon conversion to Islam, the context supports this theory.

anthonywallace

if we pray directly to God why isn't your affirmation addressing God directly (like Dozens Of other prayers in quran do)? it looks like something we are supposed to say when as a testimony upon conversion to Islam, the context supports this theory.

You should begin your prayer with praises to God...The affirmation/ statment is not the prayer itself, it is praises to God.

This a an important part of prayer...

Salam

Kitaaban Mawqoota! Set times!

Are these SET times as mentioned in the Quran Alone. Always definate sunrise and sunset times (when the birds really go off!) = 2 compulsory contact/praising times. Because remember Tasbeeh is mentioned for sunrise and sunset too and birds are given as example in the Quran.

Any thoughts?

Salam

mmkhan

Salaaman Anthony,

O.k. Well displaying of salat....And say Praise be to the One who did not take a son, ect.......................

Yes! That part is compulsory.

Regards,
mmKhan

anthonywallace

hail hail hail hail pr

1.In the name of God,
the Merciful, the Most Merciful.
2. All praises to God,
the worlds Lord.
3. The Merciful,
the Most Merciful.
4. The Master
of Judgment Day.
5. We worship You only,
and we seek help from You only.
6. Guide us to the path,
that is straight.
7. Those You blessed on them's path,
and not those with the wrath on them,
nor the misled. jedi

hail hail hail hail pr

rsw

Why do I keep seeing this word "compulsory?" Doesn't Qu'ran explicitly state that there is no compulsion in religion ... ?

Let's look at this "say" in it's CONTEXT

17107 Say ?Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating.?
17108 And they say ?Praise be to our Lord. Truly, the promise of our Lord was fulfilled.?
17109 And they fall upon their chins crying, and it increases them in humility.
17110 Say ?Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.? And do not be too loud in making your communion, nor too quite; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? And glorify Him greatly.

Verses 107-109 are describing "those who have been given the knowledge before it," that is, people who have already believed in God who are being exposed to the Qu'ran for the first time. "Say" is a command for us, the reader, what we should say to them. We should tell them to call on God by whatever name you called Him already, and to praise Him who hasn't taken a son, has no partner or ally.

Why do you think we are being told to say these verses before a prayer? Just because it says "and glorify Him" after you say those things does not mean that you have to say them EVERY TIME before you glorify Him, it only means you should glorify Him EVERY TIME after telling this to a believer who has been exposed to the Qu'ran for the first time, who falls on their chins crying.

anthonywallace

Why do I keep seeing this word "compulsory?" Doesn't Qu'ran explicitly state that there is no compulsion in religion ... ?

Let's look at this "say" in it's CONTEXT
Verses 107-109 are describing "those who have been given the knowledge before it," that is, people who have already believed in God who are being exposed to the Qu'ran for the first time. "Say" is a command for us, the reader, what we should say to them. We should tell them to call on God by whatever name you called Him already, and to praise Him who hasn't taken a son, has no partner or ally.

Why do you think we are being told to say these verses before a prayer? Just because it says "and glorify Him" after you say those things does not mean that you have to say them EVERY TIME before you glorify Him, it only means you should glorify Him EVERY TIME after telling this to a believer who has been exposed to the Qu'ran for the first time, who falls on their chins crying.

I never said it was compulsory to say it ( this verse particalaly at beginning of prayer), but I did say that it was proof to say it...at the beging after forming intention or in displaying it or somtime inbetween ect...Just like the posture of protration is proof, and other factors of the prayer that are confirmed by Quran...

You find your own method of prayer, all factors of prayer besides Absolute proof parts and proofs are factor practiced by the messenger or leader...And these should not be omitted without valid reson...

You praise Him the way He teaches u ( 17111), But He does command you to praise Him dawn and evening, in the time of prayer...u can say what you want to say, just give all praises to Him...

This is my way, I invite to God in full disclosure, myself and whoever follows me. And glory be to God. And I am not of those who set up partners.

Look at surah 1, it begins with praises to God, and then prayer...for example.

1.In the name of God,
the Merciful, the Most Merciful.
2. All praises to God,
the worlds Lord.
3. The Merciful,
the Most Merciful.
4. The Master
of Judgment Day.
5. We worship You only,
and we seek help from You only.
6. Guide us to the path,
that is straight.
7. Those You blessed on them's path,
and not those with the wrath on them,
nor the misled.

Surah 2238 commands you to ritualize your prayer...or restrict it, guard it,dedicate it, ect...

And to "keep" it....And dont loose it like geanerations that came and followed the desires....and lost it...

Do you not agree that after seeking your path for salat ( 17110 ), to say ?Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.? ( 17111 ) ??

And do you think that I would be wrong for doings so and advising the people to do the same thing? Am I missing something??

peace

rsw

I don't think you are wrong for saying what you do and advising other people to do so; I think you are wrong in your interpretation of those verses. There is no "proof" that they are to be said at the beginning of our salat, actually the context clearly suggests otherwise. If you like saying them and you encourage others to say them there is nothing wrong with that, but we have to be very careful in our claims about what the scripture says.

The reasoning for this is two-fold God knows best, not us; and every person needs the freedom to read the verses according to their understanding. When you begin to interpret verses without clear proofs for your meanings you begin to take away from other's ability to read the Scripture and formulate their own beliefs; look at what happened with Rashad Khalifa.

For example, when I read 2238 and 2239 I do not read it as being about prayer at all; it is about marriage to me. The verses before it and after elegantly fit into this meaning and create a continuity in the Scripture that I believe was intended. I used to accept that it was about prayer, but after reviewing 1. the context 2. the arabic 3. the most appropriate interpretation considering those two things, I have come to a different conclusion. So when you tell me that 2238 means "to ritualize prayer" I automatically disagree with you, and unless you can provide better proof than what I have used to come to my conclusion I will not be able to believe you.

You do not know what other people's beliefs are about the verses you are interpreting, and you are not providing convincing evidence for your interpretation. This is bound to cause people to disagree with you. I don't think you're wrong for what you are doing (in your ritual) -- I think you are wrong for your justification of them. If they seem right to you just do them and if you want to share your methods with others do so; but unless you have clear proof (involving context, arabic, etc) you should not try to say "the scripture says to do it this way!"

The Qu'ran, interpretation, logic, etc. are kind of hallowed ground to some of us.

mmkhan

Salaaman rsw,

Why do I keep seeing this word "compulsory?" Doesn't Qu'ran explicitly state that there is no compulsion in religion ... ?

Yes! still I say it is compulsory brother.. Because Allah said

17110 Say "Invoke God, or invoke the Most Gracious by whichever name you invoke Him, His are all the attributes of perfection. And do not display your Salaat nor hide it completely, but follow a way in-between;

Quli odAAoo Allaha awi odAAoo alrrahmana ayyan ma tadAAoo falahu alasmao alhusna wala tajhar bisalatika wala tukhafit biha waibtaghi bayna thalika sabeelan

(17110)

17111 and say "All praise is due to God, who begets no offspring, and has no partner in His dominion, and has no weakness, and therefore no need of any aid" -and extol His limitless greatness.

Waquli alhamdu lillahi allathee lam yattakhith waladan walam yakun lahu shareekun fee almulki walam yakun lahu waliyyun mina alththulli wakabbirhu takbeeran

(17111)

When Allah asked us to SAY it means we have to say. So, compulsory.

And you said, "there is no compulsion in religion ... ?". You cannot bring any verse regarding this brother.

Rather than compulsion it says "Laa ikraha fid deen". Ikraha does not compulsion but it means something that you don't like.

Regards,
mmKhan