Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Salaaman Anthoney,
What??? ???
You said you got "a" ?
Then you extended to (2)
And finally asked THREElaugh
Regards,
mmKhanlaugh
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Peace Frida and All;
Ayman is avoiding to answer my point; as you can note, Summer was after the 4 restricted Month (9-81). in other words, Rammadan had to be 4 month before summer time, and cann't fall in June 15.
If Ayman does not answer, then, I will understand that Ayman is deliberately trying to lead people Astray.Peace
Salaam Belalhammad
I had time to understand the relevance of 91-5 and 81 last night
Free_Minds
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving,95 tells us that? when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill....?
Hence , 4 months later, when the war was going on as in
Free_Minds
981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand...... "Do not mobilize in the heat." confirms that fighting was indeed engaged during the hot season.
Applying Ayman?s theory
The hot months in Arabia should stretch from May to August, which means that Ramadan must have occurred sometime in April/May according to the verses above.
So Ramadan was not in the month of extreme heat, if we believe Ayman?s theory that the sacred months follow Ramadan and than apply the evidence from the Qur'an...a contradiction here!!!As nun de plume wrote earlier, we are getting there. Alhumdullilah, with the combined effort of everyone here, we are getting to the root question Hot/Ramadan or The Month of Ramadan. I would suggest we all do our own verification by looking into.91-5 and 81
361 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say "Let us call our children and your children, our women and your women, ourselves and yourselves, then, let us call out, and we shall make God's curse upon the liars."
peace
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Salaam Belalhammad
I had time to understand the relevance of 91-5 and 81 last night
Free_Minds
95 So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and honor the connection, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving,95 tells us that? when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill....?
Hence , 4 months later, when the war was going on as in
Free_Minds
981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand...... "Do not mobilize in the heat." confirms that fighting was indeed engaged during the hot season.
Applying Ayman?s theory
The hot months in Arabia should stretch from May to August, which means that Ramadan must have occurred sometime in April/May according to the verses above.
So Ramadan was not in the month of extreme heat, if we believe Ayman?s theory that the sacred months follow Ramadan and than apply the evidence from the Qur'an...a contradiction here!!!Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 1230 PM till 430 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.peace
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Peace all,
Ayman said
I do not agree with this. I do not think that this is the logic behind the etymology of the meaning of 'stages' as it concerns nazala. Despite that we are not dealing with etymology. I was just trying to help people understand the sense behind this meaning and the possible logic for it. manzil means stage, any stage, descending or ascending. As it refers to the moon it includes all its stages before full moon, at full moon and after full moon.
To give a similar word with a somewhat similar concept going on here Mawqa3 means location as well. It is from the root waqa3 which is to fall literally, and also means to occurr/happen. Now Mawqa3 is not where someone literally falls (although it can mean this). It arrived at that meaning from an archaic usage of the concept 'to fall'. Old English I think makes similar use of the concept to fall for location. Ex. "The old oak tree wilst fall to thy left upon the road hither" It can still be used in today's language albeit rare. Ex. "If you keep going straight the store your're looking for will fall on your left." No literal falling at all. And we need only go to the word 'befall' to see how the concept of falling is also connected to occurrence and happenings. So I hope everyone can see how the concept of to fall or descend doesn't have to be literal or order-oriented as it concerns the use of manzil. In the end no matter how far the meanings may seem to stray from the original root, if there is no evidence that it is a post-quranic meaning (the most obvious being that it is an interpretational meaning given by a post-quranic figure) then the meaning is what it is. Period.This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 1230 PM till 430 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.peace
Salaam
Afridi,Thank you for this information. So if the hottest months are June, July and August then, as we learn from 981, the war was in one of the hot months, after the sacred months; in other words, at least 3 months had passed since Ramadan, according to Ayman's theory.
Now work it out yourself when was Ramadan?
peace
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Salam
Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 1230 PM till 430 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.peace
If Rammadan starts in June 25, according to Ayman;
and if Rammdan is the starter of the 4 restricted months;
Then, Verse 9-81 had to be in October.If you look deeply in verse 9-81, you will note that they were complaining from going to war in Summer Season; as you know going to war in the days of prophet is different than our days. It will involve traveling that might take a month, and it will involve weeks of fighting untill some one would win.
In 9-81, they were complaining about doing all the above in Heat time (summer time). Trust me,if it was september, as you said (how did you calculate) they would have never use that reason, knowning that the next two or three month will be not as hot. -
Salaam
Afridi,Thank you for this information. So if the hottest months are June, July and August then, as we learn from 981, the war was in one of the hot months, after the sacred months; in other words, at least 3 months had passed since Ramadan, according to Ayman's theory.
Now work it out yourself when was Ramadan?
peace
Muharam is the first and Ramadan is the ninth month
salam farida
The Islamic months are named as follows
Muharram (or Muarram al aram)
Safar (or afar al Muzaffar)
Rabi' al-awwal (Rab' I)
Rabi' al-thani (or Rab' al Thn, or Rab' al-Akhir) (Rab' II)
Jumada al-awwal (Jumd I)
Jumada al-thani (or Jumd al-akhir) (Jumd II)
Rajab (or Rajab al Murajab)
Sha'aban (or Sha'abn al Moazam)
Ramadan (or Ramzn, long form Raman al Mubarak)
Shawwal (or Shawwal al Mukarram)
Dhu al-Qi'dah
Dhu al-HijjahThe three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single forbidden month is Rajab. These months were considered forbidden both within the new Islamic calendar and within the old pagan Meccan calendar, although whether they maintained their "forbidden" status after the conquest of Mecca has been disputed among Islamic scholars.
peace
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Muharam is the first and Ramadan is the ninth month
salam farida
The Islamic months are named as follows
Muharram (or Muarram al aram)
Safar (or afar al Muzaffar)
Rabi' al-awwal (Rab' I)
Rabi' al-thani (or Rab' al Thn, or Rab' al-Akhir) (Rab' II)
Jumada al-awwal (Jumd I)
Jumada al-thani (or Jumd al-akhir) (Jumd II)
Rajab (or Rajab al Murajab)
Sha'aban (or Sha'abn al Moazam)
Ramadan (or Ramzn, long form Raman al Mubarak)
Shawwal (or Shawwal al Mukarram)
Dhu al-Qi'dah
Dhu al-HijjahThe three successive forbidden months mentioned by Muhammad (months in which battles are forbidden) are Dhu al-Qi'dah, Dhu al-Hijjah, and Muharram, thus excluding an intercalary month before Muharram. The single forbidden month is Rajab. These months were considered forbidden both within the new Islamic calendar and within the old pagan Meccan calendar, although whether they maintained their "forbidden" status after the conquest of Mecca has been disputed among Islamic scholars.
peace
Salaam Afridi
At the moment we are working on Ayman's theroy and not the forbidden months you stated above. I am trying to ascertain when Ramadan could be, if the fighting took place in hot weather.
Bilalhammd is showing that, if we apply Aymans thery, the forbiden months are not in the hot months as the surah indicates.
I hope this helps
peace -
Peace all,
This is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
I notice you have been ignoring my posts of late. If, in any way, I have offended you please understand it was not malicious but sometimes, in order to reach a conclusion, one needs to be frank and straightforward.
I would like to thank you for inviting me to take part in this discussion, and let me tell you it has been the most productive ten day of the month of Ramadan for me, and a lot of the credit goes to you for making us find out the truth ourselves.Best regards
farida -
I just got a ? (2)
Is this the month OF hotness or not?
In other words, is this the moon of redness or not?
iN OTHER WORDS IS IT THE THE TIME OF FASTING OR NOT?
laugh laugh laugh What are you saying anthonywallace, I cant stop laughing. laugh
laugh
No it is not he month of hotness
No it is not he moon of redness
hmm It is the time of fastness laugh laugh laugh -
981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Salaam allCould it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?
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981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Salaam allCould it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?
nope
Samia, God would have said that, but instead He confirmed that it was Hot by saying "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
God is given us a hint that it was Summer time.
Do not try to save Ayman Theory using twisted prove -
Salaam Afridi
At the moment we are working on Ayman's theroy and not the forbidden months you stated above. I am trying to ascertain when Ramadan could be, if the fighting took place in hot weather.
Bilalhammd is showing that, if we apply Aymans thery, the forbiden months are not in the hot months as the surah indicates.
I hope this helps
peaceThsat calendar can help you in Ayman theory
peace
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Thsat calendar can help you in Ayman theory
peace
Salaam Afridi,
671 Say "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah? - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, 'come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say "Allah's guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to SUBMIT ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;-
3200O you who believe, be patient and call for patience, and bond together and revere God that you may succeed
peace
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Do not try to save Ayman Theory using twisted prove
Salaam belal
Please don't be silly, I am not sharing yours or Ayman's understanding of fasting, let alone when. And please do not turn a discusion into duel camps the camp of Ayman and the camp of belal or whoever....
Moreover, why shouldn't you consider all possibilities and eliminate them with a strong proof? "God could have said that" does not mean God said the opposite, and He does not "have to say" that. He did not say they were lying, so can you say that they were not lying because God did not say that when He "would have said that"?
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Peace Ayman,
What i said is completely true. Idiomatic usage CAN INDEED change the meaning of a word over time. Take for example like you said 'to hit the road.' That condensed into 'to hit it' as in 'to get out/to leave' and from that you can say 'we are going to hit los angeles, san fransisco and San antonio on this trip.' To hit now means 'to travel to.' So orignally this was not hit's meaning. But idiomatic usage gave the word new meaning OVER TIME (key word being OVER TIME). There are plenty of examples of this in all langauges. I'll see if I can dig up some more.
But here is the problem, this is talking etymology and we are not talking etymology here with nzl. I gave some etymological reasons for why the word has meanings that seem to be separate from it's base meaning to descend, but the word is what it is now. It has all of those meanings and there is an etymological reason behind it. Idiomatic usage is the prime suspect. But at this point it is not an idiom but a certified meaning of the word.
Furthermore manAZIL like I stated before is a plural for manzil. Which mean literally place of descent. Madras/madrasah/pl. MaDARIS means place of study, masjid/maSAJID measn place of paying homage, i.e. worship. the form is maf3il/maf3al singular and mafA3IL plural. You don't have to explain Arabic to me. Unless you are trying to teach something in your dialect to me, keep the lessons to yourself please. From our conversations I think I know more about Arabic then you are willing to know.
Godbless,
AnwarThis is false. Idiomatic usage of a word doesn't change the basic meaning of the word. For example, when one says "hit the road", this doesn't change the meaning of "hit" to "travel". The idiomatic expression as whole is interpreted through cultural nuances as "travel" but linguistically the basic meaning of the word "hit" is the same. The word "MaNAZL" always means something that one descends to. The relationship between the form NZL and MaNAZL is fairly common in the Arabic language, for example, think SJD and MaSAJD, DRS and MaDARS. No one with a grain of common sense would claim that MaDARS can actually mean a place for ignorance (the opposite of study like ascending is the opposite of descending).
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
I would also like to point out that the connection between colors and the concept of scorching is a fallacy, and is not true to all cultures. Flames can be reddish, whitish or even bluish. In English we have the phrase to to burn white hot. Because really high fires tend to be more white than red. Alchohol burns blue. I just don't think it is an absolute thing to say because something is red we can connect that with the concept of scorching. Scorched bones and other things in the sun get bleached white. Fir even chars things and turns them black. So i don't buy this basic connection between a reddish moon and the concept of very hot. I've seen red moons in the fall. I think here in the states red moons are mostly associated with fall and fall colors. Just my take, I think it is a fallacious argument. Not to mention that shahr has all kinds of meanings, from month to plain old moon, to crescent moon. hilaal means moon stage and can even mean a full moon. I think I showed along time ago that if we take the Quranic concept of day from sunrise to sunrise using the dictionry meaning of a shahr as 29 islamic days, it equals 30 of the quranic days. Islamic days are from sunset to sunset. So when a day begins at night in the Islamic system the first day has already begun sunrise that same day in the Quranic system. That creates an extra day in the Quranic system whereas in the Islamic system it stays 29 days. If you count out 30 sunrise to sunrise Quranic days you get 29 sunset to sunset islamiic days within them. Everyone can try it. Use Q for Quranic days and I for Islamic days, then count the Q and I's
Q =Quranic day and I = Islamic day Only thinking minds should dare to attempt this.Begiiiin Counting!
Sunrise(1st) Sunset(1st) Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q I Q
Conclusion 29I = 30Q. In English that is 29 Islamic days equals 30 Quranic days.
I set it up this way because from sunrise (1st) to the first Q is the completion of the first Quranic day so start counting from 1 at the first Q. From Sunset(1st) to the first I is the completion of the first Islamic day. You will see that every Quranic day has a sunset in it and every Islamic day has a sunrise in it. This is all the proof I need to show you that 30 days is also a shahr.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Nun,
How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
In addition to our brains being programmed to make the solstice moon appear bigger, our brains are programmed to appreciate symmetry. We even associate symmetry with beauty. The full moon will be symmetric. This is how we all know a full moon when we see one. On the other hand, how many of us have actually seen the new-moon? I bet none.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Samia,
981 Those who have remained are happy with their position of lagging behind God's messenger, and they disliked striving with their wealth and lives in the cause of God; and they say "Do not mobilize in the heat." Say "The fire of Hell is far hotter," if they could only understand.
Could it be that they were just trying to find an excuse, and that they were just lying and it was not really hot? The verse gives us their real intention, so what they were saying was not true. If it was really hot (imagine the heat of the desert during summer), wouldn't that be a reasonable excuse?I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 95 and 981 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 981 immediately follows 95. If one uses the logic that the passages from 95 to 981 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 925-26 happened before 981 and so did the event in 940. So either way, the idea that the events described in 981 immediately followed 95 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2217.
Here are the facts
- A chapter of the great reading was descended (986) during this hot time of the year (981).
- The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".
Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.
I hope this helps.
Peace,
Ayman