Hot/"ramadan" Answer

farida

Salaam everyone,

I am writing to bow out of this thread about Hot/Ramadan, as my journey was to find out the truth for myself and I have strong proofs from the Qur?an to believe that;
?Amongst those who witnessed? the month of Ramadan include all those who are present in this month and can perceive with their ears their eyes and their skins.
More importantly the month of Ramadan is not confined to the months of extreme heat.
If we say that 181 has no relevance to the earlier verse 91-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.

Even though ?the astro calculations of the movements of the heavenly bodies conforms with precise modern day calculations done by astro physicists and scientists and astro researchers? (Sibute ) the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of Ramadan.

Thanks to Nun de plume for this very valid question;
How do we witness/know which of the four phases is full moon?
...seeing each of those four moons individually (don't have luxury to compare next to each other) -- how would be able to tell which is the full moon with less than .3% Illuminated Phase difference?

Whoever feels a need to eliminate more possibilities, obstructing the truth, it?s their prerogative. I am not going to invest any more of my time in this thread.

?I am out?

farida

Moreover, why shouldn't you consider all possibilities and eliminate them with a strong proof? "God could have said that" does not mean God said the opposite, and He does not "have to say" that. He did not say they were lying, so can you say that they were not lying because God did not say that when He "would have said that"?

Salaam Samia,

Please read the following verses and see if they pertain to your antics.

268 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."

269 They said "Call upon your Lord for us that He may clarify what color it is." He said "He says it is a yellow heifer with a strong color, pleasing to those who see it."

270 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."

271 He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance

hmm

All the best

anthonywallace

Salaam Samia,

Please read the following verses and see if they pertain to your antics.

268 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."

269 386 How can God guide a people who have rejected after believing, and they witnessed that the messenger is true, and the clarity had come to them? God does not guide the wicked people.

270 They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."

271 He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance

hmm

All the best

Good verses farida,....

However this discussion is deeper than what I thought, and I will have to take my time to analize these posts further...

I have never really watched the moon phases and differences ect...and got into debth about the particular months the 4 months is ect...

But as of now, starting next year God willing, I will start my fast in august ( for it is the " hottest month. " that I know of, witness, and also feel over hear in Michigan )....unless my Lord guide me and forgive me, then I will surly be of those lost...

Soof

This is all the proof I need to show you that 30 days is also a shahr.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

Which month is used to fast based on your understanding of the Qur'an alone and how did you determine this? Thanks.

Peace

Samia

Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

rsw

Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

Excellent point. Since the clear, absolute details of fasting have apparently been obscured (if it was easy there won't be all this debate over it) I think this is what I will do as well! What a load off!

belH

Peace Samia,

I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 95 and 981 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 981 immediately follows 95.
If one uses the logic that the passages from 95 to 981 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 925-26 happened before 981 and so did the event in 940.

Yousuf Ali

Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunayn behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught the land for all that it is wide, did constrain you and ye turned back in retreat. (9-25)
But Allah did pour His calm on the Mssenger and on the Believers and sent down forces which ye saw not He punished the Unbelievers thus doth He reward those without Faith. (9-26)
Again will Allah after this turn (in mercy) to whom He will for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-27)

Ayman; you are twisting the truth; Why cann't you say what you understood when reading the above verses or the following verses?

If ye help not for Allah did indeed help him; when the unbelievers drove him out he had no more than one companion they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion "Have no Fear, for Allah is with us" then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. (9-40)

Is it hard to say that these verses are reminders for the believers of past events?

So either way, the idea that the events described in 981 immediately followed 95 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2217.

As we all know Chapter 9 is very unique; it is the only Chapter that the prophet did not start with "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful"

If you read Chapter nine, you cann't miss how its verses are related to each other.

Here are the facts

A chapter of the great reading was descended (986) during this hot time of the year (981).
The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".

Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

Here are the Facts...wow Ayman are you a Prophet hail

Here are the Quranic Facts
9-81 was in Hot summer days
9-81 was after the Four Restricted months
9-81 is the strongest prove from Quran that Rammadan does not have to be in Summer time.

another fact, from me

9-81 is the Nail in the coffin that ended your theory .

yes

afridi220

Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor pr

Samia

hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor pr

If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!

afridi220

If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!

progod

Soof,

According to my understanding

Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.
According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.
The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.
A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.
So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.

Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar

belH

If we say that 981 has no relevance to the earlier verse 91-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.

Peace Frieds

You are right; either 9-81 is related or not related to 9-1 to 5, it still shows that summer time was not within the 4 restricted month; simply because the prophet was asking them to fight in Summer time.

Ayman!!!
9-81 is too strong to argue aginest; and if you continue to ignor its proof that The four restricted month were not in summer time, including Rammadan, during chapter 9, then you will look BEAINLESS in front of everybody.

Peace

rsw

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

Soof

Soof,

According to my understanding

Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.
According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.
The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.
A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.
So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.

Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

Ok before I ask, I'm not trying to discredit your understanding or put any understanding I have over yours (as I know people can get sensitive about this). Is a month explicitly defined in the Qur'an or is every man woman child over the world supposed to know that a month is 30 qur'anic days from general consensus that is so apparent it doesn't need to be explained? A day is defined in the Qur'an, A night is defined, a year is defined. But the month? hmmm. God made it explicit for these periods of time so why not so for a month? (rhetorical) We all know the Qur'anic time measurement is not the same as the general time measurement (new day starts at 0000) as you showed with qur'anic days so what is the Qur'anic month?

Peace

afridi220

Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 1230 PM till 430 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

peace

Mecca Climatological Data
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun J ul Aug Sep Oct Nov
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (10 47 (117) 42 (10 42 (10 42 (10 41 (106)
Nov Dec Year
41 (106) 34 (93)
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (8 33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66) 22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (6 17 (63) 12 (53)

Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2) 61 (2.4)

belH

Mecca Climatological Data
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun J ul Aug Sep Oct Nov
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (10 47 (117) 42 (10 42 (10 42 (10 41 (106)
Nov Dec Year
41 (106) 34 (93)
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (8 33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66) 22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (6 17 (63) 12 (53)

Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2) 61 (2.4)

Why are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth
yes

progod

Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways

The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.
In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.

Godbless,
Anwar

belH

Peace,

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.

Godbless,
Anwar

Good Words. sun
And may God lead you and all of us to the Honest Truth.
Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace to all,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year? There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month. The verse simply says "shahru ramadhan".

(1) If "shahr" refers to a "month", then the scriptures refers to an intensely hot month.
(2) If "shahr" refers to a full-moon, then the scripture refers to a specifically hot time period of the full-moon, or perhaps a "scorching hot/red moon".

Either way, given the root of the word "ramadhan", it would have to occur during a hot time period.

Also, even the traditional submitters base their calculator for "shahru ramadhan" on witnessing/sighting the moon. That is what the reading instructs us to do - whoever "sights/witnesses" the moon was to fast the period, according to the scripture. Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon. And regardless, the determination for the "shahr" isn't based on an arbitrary timetable - it's based on witnessing the moon, regardless of if "shahr" means "month" or "full-moon"...

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

hmm Good question. May The God guide all of us to the truth.

Peace,

Ahmad

Soof

Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways

The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.
In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is? Does it say 60 persons for 2 months? is my main query, or is it something that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an? If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism. You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance. The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after.

Peace