Hot/"ramadan" Answer

belH

Peace Samia,

I don't believe that it would be a reasonable excuse because the enemy would equally be affected by the heat. The main issue is that between 95 and 981 a lot of things have happened. There is no evidence that 981 immediately follows 95.
If one uses the logic that the passages from 95 to 981 are arranged in a way that they immediately follow one another chronologically then this means that the battle in 925-26 happened before 981 and so did the event in 940.

Yousuf Ali

Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunayn behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught the land for all that it is wide, did constrain you and ye turned back in retreat. (9-25)
But Allah did pour His calm on the Mssenger and on the Believers and sent down forces which ye saw not He punished the Unbelievers thus doth He reward those without Faith. (9-26)
Again will Allah after this turn (in mercy) to whom He will for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (9-27)

Ayman; you are twisting the truth; Why cann't you say what you understood when reading the above verses or the following verses?

If ye help not for Allah did indeed help him; when the unbelievers drove him out he had no more than one companion they two were in the cave, and he said to his companion "Have no Fear, for Allah is with us" then Allah sent down His peace upon him, and strengthened him with forces which ye saw not, and humbled to the depths the word of the Unbelievers. But the word of Allah is exalted to the heights for Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. (9-40)

Is it hard to say that these verses are reminders for the believers of past events?

So either way, the idea that the events described in 981 immediately followed 95 is completely baseless. Months could have passed between the two. Fighting is allowed during the inviolable full-moons as per 2217.

As we all know Chapter 9 is very unique; it is the only Chapter that the prophet did not start with "In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful"

If you read Chapter nine, you cann't miss how its verses are related to each other.

Here are the facts

A chapter of the great reading was descended (986) during this hot time of the year (981).
The great reading was descended on the night of measure which is also called "shahr ramadan".

Based on 1 and 2 above the night of measure and "shahr ramadan" occur during the hot time of the year.

I hope this helps.

Peace,

Ayman

Here are the Facts...wow Ayman are you a Prophet hail

Here are the Quranic Facts
9-81 was in Hot summer days
9-81 was after the Four Restricted months
9-81 is the strongest prove from Quran that Rammadan does not have to be in Summer time.

another fact, from me

9-81 is the Nail in the coffin that ended your theory .

yes

afridi220

Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor pr

Samia

hmm what about the poors if they are sick or too week and not able to feed poor pr

If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!

afridi220

If I were unable to do either or, I won't...simple!

progod

Soof,

According to my understanding

Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.
According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.
The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.
A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.
So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.

Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar

belH

If we say that 981 has no relevance to the earlier verse 91-5 still the fighting must be going on either after the sacred months or before the sacred months, but the fight was not during Ramadan as, according to Ayman, Ramadan is one of the sacred months..
The war in the past did not last for six days or so; it involved a long period of time Now it is for everyone here who wants to find out truth to work it out for themselves. We are all answerable to Allah for our own deeds.

Peace Frieds

You are right; either 9-81 is related or not related to 9-1 to 5, it still shows that summer time was not within the 4 restricted month; simply because the prophet was asking them to fight in Summer time.

Ayman!!!
9-81 is too strong to argue aginest; and if you continue to ignor its proof that The four restricted month were not in summer time, including Rammadan, during chapter 9, then you will look BEAINLESS in front of everybody.

Peace

rsw

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

Soof

Soof,

According to my understanding

Ramadan doesn't mean hottest (it is not a superlative) but constant and/or intense heat (just as shana'aan, a word of the same form also mentioned in the Quran means constant or intense hate). As we know being hot is relative to how cold we were before and what temperature we are use to.
According to the case ending on Ramadana, which is equal to ramadaanan and because if we understood shahrun it would still be read as shah-ru ramadaana, I think it is talking about any month within a time of constant/intense heat.
The constant/intense heat (ramadaanun) being referred to here is obviously a time period as we are to fast for a month within it. So Ramadan as I see it is another way of saying summer. It is the only time of constant/intense heat during the seasons of the year. The words used for summer qaith and saif meant different things in different microclimates in the Arabic speaking world back then, so what better way then to refer to the actual weather pattern and how it feels? I think that was a stroke of genius.
A month is 30 sunrise to sunrise days as demonstrated in my post above and in Quranic examples where individuals to feed are the only expiations for days of fasting missed, and two months of fasting is said in the Quran to be expiated by feeding 60 individuals.
So we fast for a period of 30 days during our local times of summer, as the Quran was revealed during a month of summer.

Soof that is my understanding. Thanks for asking for a synopsis. I was glad to give it.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

Ok before I ask, I'm not trying to discredit your understanding or put any understanding I have over yours (as I know people can get sensitive about this). Is a month explicitly defined in the Qur'an or is every man woman child over the world supposed to know that a month is 30 qur'anic days from general consensus that is so apparent it doesn't need to be explained? A day is defined in the Qur'an, A night is defined, a year is defined. But the month? hmmm. God made it explicit for these periods of time so why not so for a month? (rhetorical) We all know the Qur'anic time measurement is not the same as the general time measurement (new day starts at 0000) as you showed with qur'anic days so what is the Qur'anic month?

Peace

afridi220

Salam

Summer starts her from june and July & Augusts are the hotest months over here, there is also a ban on A ban on labourers working in the hot afternoon sun from 1230 PM till 430 Pm in these two months.
It is September and still very hot.

peace

Mecca Climatological Data
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun J ul Aug Sep Oct Nov
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (10 47 (117) 42 (10 42 (10 42 (10 41 (106)
Nov Dec Year
41 (106) 34 (93)
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (8 33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66) 22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (6 17 (63) 12 (53)

Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2) 61 (2.4)

belH

Mecca Climatological Data
Month Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun J ul Aug Sep Oct Nov
Record high ?C (?F) 33 (91) 35 (95) 38 (100) 40 (104) 42 (10 47 (117) 42 (10 42 (10 42 (10 41 (106)
Nov Dec Year
41 (106) 34 (93)
Average high ?C (?F) 29 (84) 29 (84) 29 (84) 33 (91) 35 (95) 37 (99) 40 (104) 37 (99) 36 (97) 35 (95) 33 (91) 32 (8 33 (91)
Average low ?C (?F) 19 (66) 18 (64) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 24 (75) 26 (79) 27 (81) 25 (77) 23 (73) 22 (72) 19 (66) 22 (72)
Record low ?C (?F) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 13 (55) 16 (61) 19 (66) 21 (70) 23 (73) 21 (70) 20 (6 17 (63) 12 (53)

Rainfall mm (in) 5 (0.2) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 0 (0) 25 (1.0) 31 (1.2) 61 (2.4)

Why are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth
yes

progod

Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways

The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.
In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.

Godbless,
Anwar

belH

Peace,

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.

Godbless,
Anwar

Good Words. sun
And may God lead you and all of us to the Honest Truth.
Peace

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace to all,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year? There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month. The verse simply says "shahru ramadhan".

(1) If "shahr" refers to a "month", then the scriptures refers to an intensely hot month.
(2) If "shahr" refers to a full-moon, then the scripture refers to a specifically hot time period of the full-moon, or perhaps a "scorching hot/red moon".

Either way, given the root of the word "ramadhan", it would have to occur during a hot time period.

Also, even the traditional submitters base their calculator for "shahru ramadhan" on witnessing/sighting the moon. That is what the reading instructs us to do - whoever "sights/witnesses" the moon was to fast the period, according to the scripture. Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon. And regardless, the determination for the "shahr" isn't based on an arbitrary timetable - it's based on witnessing the moon, regardless of if "shahr" means "month" or "full-moon"...

Sawm cant mean fasting from food. If the poor must fast because they can not afford to feed others, then why is feeding them an expiation? how can we feed them if they are supposed to be fasting? Sawm must mean abstaining from something else

hmm Good question. May The God guide all of us to the truth.

Peace,

Ahmad

Soof

Peace,

As i said before a Quranic month can be seen two ways

The verses where making up for days of fasting ONLY, is feeding a person for each day. 1 person for 1 day and 60 persons for 2 months.
In the dictionaries shahr (month) is said to be 29 days (and all of the other meanings of shahr). Those days are inherently islamic days, from sundown to sundown. But as I said 29 Islamic days implies 30 Quranic ones.

In the end as explicit as it may be it is still an issue of study and honest interpretation. And this will always be the case for books under scrutiny. From the Quran to national constitutions. The Quranic day is not as explicit for most Muslims who still believe in the Jewish based Islamic one. And there are plenty of other Quranic things that reveal themselves with honest study. It's about trying not to interject our own conjectures yet still trying to be honest and put the pieces together.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace

OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is? Does it say 60 persons for 2 months? is my main query, or is it something that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an? If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism. You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance. The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after.

Peace

progod

Peace,

OK but how did Muhammad and his followers know how to fast when there were no Classical Arabic Dictionaries explaining what a month is?

They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.

Does it say 60 persons for 2 months?

Yes. 584 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

589 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful.

But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage. But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast. That is the difference.

Here are the two verses that lay down the rule 2183-2184

is my main query, or is it something that everyone should know automatically whilst reading the Qur'an?

Lisaanul-Arab. I saw it in another dictionary as well. i don't have acceess to it any more. I think it was mu'jamat al-lughaat.
This is a meaning that was once automatically known. In MSA (modern standard Arabic which is the closest thing to Classical Arabic still spoken) a month is known either as an Islamic month, a western one or any number of days around 30 days in general. But we are talking about in the past here. And the Classical dictionaries tell us what people considered a month in the past amongst Classical Arabic speakers. We are speaking of a time period of over 1400 years. For that reason we are referring to dictionaries that tell us how people automatically understood these word 1400 years ago. Hence the Classical Arabic dictionary.

If it comes from a dictionary that comes after it then that is subject to great sceptism.

I understand your point here. The fact here however is that it was being documented how Arabic was blending and changing and how in certain places it wasn't. We are at the point now (and have been for centuries now) where Arabic has totally blended and evolved everywhere, except in the academic and scholarly field, where they maintained what was once the natural language of all Arabs but is now an archaic Arabic like Elizabethan English is archaic to us. Hence MSA was derived after many official councils on the Arabic language in the 20th century to install an official langauge in the education curriculum and media use based in most part on the now archaic (Classical) Arabic found in the Quran, pre-islamic poems, the hadeeth and other discourse of people after that. This was done to respect the history of Arabic literature and to mitigate some of the many subtle differences and the somtimes stark differences between the blended evolved Arabics (often called dialects, 3aamiyah or darijah) of different regions (these are known as Khaliji (gulf), Maghribi (incluses hassaniyyah and shuba), Misri (includes Sudan and Egypt), Yamani (includes Soqotri and Mehri which are technically different languages than Arabic, Soqotri has more Arabic in it I believe), And Saudi (also a product of mixing because of the inflow of non-Arabic or dialect speaking Muslims from all of the conquered Arabic territories))

That is the history. All Classical Arabic dictionaries were dedicated to reaching the people who still spoke Classical Arabic after the Quran and checking, analyzing and recording their use of the language. Reading the prefaces of Lisan-Al-Arab or lane's lexicon will give you a better picture of how early the works are and the situation of Arabic at the time. These dictionaries are all after the Quran, but Classical Arabic was still being fluently spoken after the Quran. Seeing that there were few educational institutions early on besides Quranic schools, the widely spread rumorous hadeeths prove this point as well. The Hadeeths are pure rumor and all of them are in Classical Arabic, which confirms the language's existence as a commonly spoken language among Arabs and especially bedouin Arabs.

Now to put these dictionaries under skepticism would be equal to putting our dictionaries like webster and oxford's under criticism and saying that they don't apply to works like the constitution or other English works pre-1800. But a good dictionary like Oxford for instance (which is the one we would refer to for archaic Englsh works) dates meanings and quotations, espeically if they come from interpretations of religious or political scholars where the words have been embellished upon and changed from their original meanings.

So I hope you understand that

The effort of any dictionary is to record the use of the langauge it has dedicating itself to.
If there were reasons to suggest differences in language B as it is spoken as opposed to records of how it was spoken before (Quran reciters, pre-islamic poem reciters being the ones to refer to) they would have been noted, and they were noted.
Dictionary writers checked with people who lived during the time of the prophet or shortly after his death as to how they used their language and their words.
All this may resemble the hadeeth but there is a major difference between verifying rumors and what people heard about the prophet and history surrounding him and how they spoke to each other and used their everyday words with each other(and being able to recognize if it is the same langaue as the Quran or not).
The Bedouins of that day were recorded as still using the same language and language structure as that found in the Quran, pre-islamic poetry and the hadeeths (as an every day house and street language in addition to a literate one for those who knew how to write) up to 300 years after the death of the prophet. After that the blended Arabic of the city areas where different cultures and ethnicities met and lived together (a result of Arab imperialism, Arab importation of foreign slaves as servants, international trade and the attraction of non-Arab Muslms to Arab centers of commerce and learning) began to fully affect bedouin speech as well.

You are right, there are things in the Qur'an that require in depth study and personal opinion, but a duty that God says is very good for us (although not compulsory) should be made crystal clear besides the fact that God says the Qur'an is clear guidance.

I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.

To me alternative agendas are easy to spot, but it is impossible to get people with these agendas to admit it to others, let alone themslves. I understand your sentiment, but it is not the Quran, it is the people.

The description of the fast should be clear in how and when to do it and this description should be relevant and universal at the time the Qur'an was revealed as well as after

These are all your requirments and expectations. Honestly instead of demanding this of the Quran, demand this of your understanding of the book and its issues. That when you come to a conclusion it be as clear, unbiased and as non-convaluted as possible, and agrees with every Quranic verse on the subject and that it be as universal as possible. Remember that the Quran is for those who use their 3aql, not those who refuse to or choose to abuse. Unfortunately since we cannot control how justly and fervently peeople use their 3aql we can't guarantee that they would have understood this at the time of the Quran's revelation or after. That they understand the Quran as best as they can is all I think is required. So if the people at the time of its revelation honestly thought that their Jahillliyah month of Ramadan is what was meant then they did their best. If they realized that just 30 days during their local summer is what was meant then I think they were more correct in that estimation. If they though that the Quran validated their month names but not the way they added months to keep their year solar and that was their most honest assessment then they did their best. SO for those of us that realize something is wrong with the traditional islamic system it is up for us to honestly and unbiasedly investigate and try to arrive to the truth of the matter. BUt for those who don't realize I'm sure God accepts their fasting as he accepts ours if we our honest about our conclusions.
Do you see my points here?

Godbless,
Anwar

Samia

Yes. 584 However, he who does not have the where?withal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

Salaam Anwar, all

I know you expect me to respond, so I did not want to disappoint you ;D. However, my question is not linguistic, but something that I was thinking of. I mentioned that I opted for the option of feeding the poor, but the verse does not say how many poor people, but mentions (compensation of feeding a poor) 2184. I personally took it as a collective plural, although it could be just one.

My question Does it mean fasting is only one day, or this sawm is not even "fasting from food and drink" but something else, or is it a third understanding? What do you think?

unknownuser

Peace everyone,

The word "ramadhan" itself refers to intense/extreme heat, so how can it not refer to a hot time of the year?

The word July comes from Julius Caesar - it's also the name of a month.

There is no proof in the reading that "ramadhan" was the name of a pre-qur'anic month.

They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.

Whether you choose to sight the full-moon or the new crescent moon is completely up to you, but the full-moon would definately be easier to see than the new crescent moon.

Are you sure? Is this a full moon?

http//i35.tinypic.com/dbntlk.jpg

On different days you would see a 99.7% full moon.

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...

http//fredkleinastro.com/images/MoonAndVenus.JPG

Peace

Soof

Peace,

They didn't need Classical Arabic dictionaries because they spoke Classical Arabic. We need the dictionaries because we don't speak it anymore unless we learn it (inclduing the Arabs of today). They knew that a month was 29 (Jewish based, now called Islamic) days. When reading the Quran and figuring out that the Jewish-based way there were counting days was incorrect then they could have made the connection. The book was for our last prophet to preach it and for the whole community to study it and enact it. I honestly dont' think they realized this. In the Islamic histories (admittedly hadeeth based) the months were taken off of the pagan system (of adding months in certain years) after our last prophet passed. So I think this challenge fell on the shoulders of the generations after our last prophet and they made the wrong decision. The other conclusion would be that our last prophet with the believing community did make the correct changes but later generations opted for the pre-islamic nomenclature of months and the lunar system, keeping off addition of an extra month (making it a fully lunar calendar), but using foreign calendars for the solar system. Which is not entirely far-fetched seeing that the nominal Musilms (the Ummayads and others) tried to bring things back to the Jahillyah system as soon as the last prophet passed away.

The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?

Yes. 584 However, he who does not have the wherewithal shall fast for two consecutive months before the couple may touch one another again; and he who is unable to fast shall feed sixty needy ones

Here it is. If you can't fast for 2 months to atone for the sin in the previous verses, then you can expiate the daily fasting for 2 months by feeding 60 people

589 is the vers that has been use against me in the argument. It reads
But I have continued to argrue here that in this verse we are not expiating any fast. The breaking of our oaths is worth feeding 10 people in need or JUST clothing them, or freeing someone in bondage. But if we can't do that we can fast for 3 days. So here we are not making up for any fasting. Whereas before if we can't fast then we expiate for the fast.That is the difference.

Here are the two verses that lay down the rule 2183-2184

Fair enough.

I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.

I hate to say this but that is a bias of yours. You are requiring that God make what he says clear to the corrupt and the uncorrupt a like. The Quran says that the corrupt intentionally twist its words after understanding them, and also says that many of the corrupt fail to understand even it's clearest mandates. How can we know when the corrupt do understand but are twisting on purpose? We can't, because they won't openly admit this. To those of us who are honest that is heart-wrenching because we want to believe that all humans will be honest when it comes to these sorts of discussion, but I've learned that that just will not happen. And if someone doesn't understand because they don't want to, it is also impossible to get them to admit that. So i understand you but that is why it is up to the honest to be honest with themselves, clear themselves of bias and alternative agendas and to be on the look out for those who are also honestly searching, studynig, analyzing and concluding.

Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect

Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
3918

But what is corrupt? Corrupt is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all nope, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

Peace

ayman

Peace Nun,

They called the months something back then and those names were passed down.

What did they call them? It is not like we don't know. There are many Arabian pre-quranic inscriptions that have dates and names of months so this should be easy for you to find. In fact, I think I posted the names here on this forum in the past. Amongst those names you will not find any month named Ramadan.

Are you sure? Is this a full moon?

I have never heard two people disagree on when the full moon occured. So yeah I am sure. Also, based on the term "ramadan" the full-moon we should use is going to be more red and lower on the horizon than the nearly full one the next day, even though they might be close in percent illimunated.

The new moon waxing crescent (D in DOC) is much easier to tell...

Did you see it this year if it is so easy to tell? Did you ever see it? Probably not. How come every year there are so many disputes about the start and end of so-called Ramadan if it is so easy to tell?

Peace,

Ayman

Soof

updated response to Progod

The Dictionary question was rhetorical by the way...
Your mentioning the actions of Muhammad & his followers at that time cannot help. Otherwise I might as well turn to a Hadith to explain to me. The Qur'an has always explained itself and never needs another story to clarify it. So my point is not to say that it I require things from the Qur'an or that I have a biased opinion that the Qur'an should be straightforward. There are the cornerstones and the ambiguous but all duties in the Qur'an are made very clear and very detailed (hajj, inheritance, divorce, orphans, marriage) so following through the fasting duty must be clear (which I believe it is, I never said I haven't got my own understanding I was just asking of yours). You mention Muhammad and the people making corrections and changes but this is meant to be the Worldwide religion, are we to accept that the month we use for the duties of GOD is in the hands of Man to correct? If a muslim who has no knowledge of this history or hadeeth but knowledge of the moon and the sun and its cycles comes to the Qur'an alone, how does he deduce what a month is?

Fair enough. But that verse is referring to a punishment that is separate from Ramadhan, with a separate purpose (God says fasting is good for us but it is also used as a punishment so we recognise the error of what we are doing). It may well be 60 days in this case. Does this mean that it is so?

Why is it described here as fast for two consecutive months in this verse yet in the verse regarding ramadhan it says whoever witnesses the month should fast it?

How do you witness a month?

Why do some people say Witness, some people say observe and some people say are present? Does this mean the whole month? If you take it as 30 days why doesn't God say if we can't fast the month then feed 30 Needy People? when in fact it says

(Fast) a certain number of days; and (for) him who is sick among you, or on a journey, (the same) number of other days; and for those who can afford it there is a ransom the feeding of a man in need - but whoso doeth good of his own accord, it is better for him and that ye fast is better for you if ye did but know
2184

Does this mean the fast is one day according to your logic?

I understand your standing point on the dictionaries. I use them and lane's lexicon frequently. The best way in the end to decide is to collect like verses together and compare. Then come to the best conclusion.

Yea, but you misunderstood, I'm not asking God of anything, I already know God makes things clear to those who are mindful, who study and reflect

Who hear advice and follow the best thereof. Such are those whom Allah guideth, and such are men of understanding.
3918

But what is corrupt? Corrupt is to use an external source to explain the Qur'an. Eventually you (not you personally) will twist the words of the Qur'an to match the external source, case in point the Hadith. So MY point is saying coming to the Qur'an alone, God says HIMSELF that he will make things clear for the believers and no MAN should need to, how can a man of lower intellect and fewer words explain to me any better than the Almighty, Most Wise? To say that I require Him to do this or that is neither here nor there, He tells us what He will do with his revelation, it's not bias at all. There are countless verses I shouldn't have to quote them to you, they are not demands at all nope, they are descriptions of the Qur'an!

So in conclusion God makes cornerstones of the Qur'an very clear, among them being the duties and guidelines to live by. Indeed there are subtleties that must be discussed but this does not detract from the final point, that fasting is good for us and we should observe it at certain periods of our lives. It is only when you use EXTERNAL sources that you corrupt God's word and things become unclear such as making Ramadhan a stand alone word that isn't translated (agree?). The closest thing to an uncorrupt external source is a Dictionary but even then their are interpretations that creep in from Hadith. God makes it plain and clear that we should come to understanding using the Qur'an ALONE. (obviously yt ou need an understanding of the Classical Arabic language as a pre-requisite)

What do you think about MaAAdoodatin particularly denoting few and not counted? (lanes lexicon) Also, just because someone fasts the month does not necessarily mean the WHOLE month.

Peace