Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Peace,
Truth seeker, feeding people to subsitute for a fast is expiating the fast. Plain and simple. THe reasons for the fast are to either to compensate certain actions or to uphold God's commands. But we expiate daily fasts by feeding people for each fast we do not do. That is not illogical or misleading.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Ayman I would like to point out that all of those quotes specififically refer to the feeling of heat, including the heat felt in a burning eye and from two thighs rubbing together. It is only your implication or better said, your guesswork, about the color being red. No color is mentioned in any of those quotes and all of them logically imply the feeling of heat as the main root ramada implies. So why are you guessing and putting the idea of color in here when it is not there?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Ayman I would like to point out that all of those quotes specififically refer to the feeling of heat, including the heat felt in a burning eye and from two thighs rubbing together. It is only your implication or better said, your guesswork, about the color being red. No color is mentioned in any of those quotes and all of them logically imply the feeling of heat as the main root ramada implies. So why are you guessing and putting the idea of color in here when it is not there?
Now you are just being argumentative and when you do that like some people here you forget your god-given common sense. Last time I checked no one who felt his eye burning had their eyes turn blue, white, or black. Their eyes always turn red. You think is refered to as "pink eye" or "red eye" in English for nothing? The term scorching is clearly about two things, heat and glowing red. So when referring to "shahr"/full-moon, they can only refer to the full-moon immediately after the summer solstice. Notice that you are now not arguing anymore about the indisputable scientific fact that this full moon will appear more red than the other full moons.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Umm Tariq,
Br. Ayman, I'd like to say thanks for that post on showing the differences in the different opinions on sharh ramadan, it was a useful way for me to look at the issue more deeply.
All thanks is due to the god sister. I only get credit for any mistakes. The god shows us the straight path by contrasting it with the paths of those who are lost (16-7). So it is always useful to compare all the different approaches and see which one is closest to the straight path to the truth.
As of now, I am convinced that sharh, as used in the reading, translates to full moon in all of the reading. I have noticed that for those who take the meaning to be 'month', containing anywhere from 28-31 days as used in the world today, and those who take the meaning to be 'full moon' then for all of the time periods mentioned in the reading using 'shahr' as a way to count, then they differ by '1 month' each, month being however many days happen to fall between 2 full moons.
This would depend on when the event of the full-moon occured. Remember your excellent analogy of full-moons and menstruations. The number of days will depend on when those events occur in relation to the start of the counting.
However, I do have one question for you about the first part of the verse 3412 "And for Sulaiman the wind ghuduwuhaa shahr and rawaahuhaa shahr..." If one translates it using 'month' then the translations that I've seen have to add the word 'journey' which is not mentioned in the verse as far as I see. If you translate it as 'full moon' then how do you understand this verse? ??? I do not know a whole lot about the science of wind and all so maybe I am missing something, I don't know. However, I clearly do not like and do not accept when translators add words to seemingly make a verse more complete and clear as if it wasn't already!
I don't think that anyone (including me) can say with certainty what 3412 is talking about.
"The interrelationship of the solar wind and the earth?s magnetosphere is receiving considerable attention in recent years. It has been suggested that the passage of the moon through the earth?s magnetic shield may serve to trigger various weather and magnetic activity. The interrelationship of indicators like the geomagnetic index, solar flux and other measures of solar activity with the moon is just now in the process of being researched and understood." (From http//lessons.astrology.com/course/show/The-Astrology-of-Space/3031-The-Solar-Wind )
There is also other information that may be interesting but I don't think that it is scientifically proven
http//www.policeops.com/full-moon-ion-effect.htm
Regarding verse 937, right after the god tells us about the count of 12 ashhur, it seems to me that if the people at the time of the revelation of the book were going by counting full moons, and there is sometimes this extra 13th full moon the god tells us that to sometimes count it and sometimes not is an increase in disbelief. Correct me if I am wrong but what I also get out of this is that when people decide to use a certain 'calendar' per se, at least in our times, they don't make it sometimes 12 and sometimes 13 since it's a 'calendar' that is used to regulate the systems we follow. The traditional sunni lunar calendar stays 12 months, by some names that I don't know where they came from and doesn't even recognize the seasons as meaning anything related to the great reading which is a big crime. Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?
If the "nasi" is the 13th full moon (we don't know this for sure) then the problem was with making it permissible some years and not others. What we are told in the great reading is that we should never count it (i.e., we should skip it and start counting again at the next full-moon). A year with 13 full-moons occurs every three years and interestingly this simple and elegant method given in 936 would automatically and accurately maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace all,
The topic however is about the full moon itself and using it as a marker.
How did you conclude that this opinion is discounting 'month days' to 10 days? We are not saying that a 'month' is ten days. We are saying that 'shahr' should be translated as 'full moon', using it as a marker to begin the fasting and then the number of days total is based on the additional analysis of the verses.
Peace Sis Farida,
Please Farida, you made two such comments and I really don't believe that it helps any. You are making an assumption that all of us here have egos just because we disagree and I am offended by that. I seek refuge with the god from arrogance and I hate it as well.
Umm Tariq
Salaam Umm Tariq,
Please read my reply againQuote from farida on Today at 121341 AM
It could be completely flawed but, in the interest of finding out the truth, we must all let go off our egos and work together.You are a new member here and I hardly know you, I am surprised that you are offended by my general statement where I used the word "we"; that means including myself, I am sorry, its your problem if you took it as directed towards you. However I have highlighed above in red ,in your reply, where you are calling yourself part of Ayman's camp even though you say that you need to study this subject.
You seek refuge with the god from arrogance, so do I, but I do not see Ayman doing that, as he clearly wants to impose his theory or he calls others ignorant, "those who are lost" to him he is the only informed one and his is the "simple and elegant method"I am posting here in all honestly to aid in arriving at the truth so please don't assume otherwise without proof as the god has told us that much suspicion is sin.
When did I cast doubt on YOUR honesty ??? Assume what? That you are part of Ayman/'s team???? Did I touch some raw nerve ???
That's a good point that you are pointing out and it's true. I will consider that some more however, remember also that this issue involves the forbidden 'full moons' in which hunting wild life is forbidden. How could this change from year to year
Thank you for noticing the good point and thank you again for considering it. While doing that do keep in mind that I am talking of two models to follow No single man made calender; one the lunar months that we follow for the month of fasting and Ayman's version could be acceptable for seasonal events like harvesting, restricted months etc.
Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area. We can also try looking at it from this angle.
Why not use simple common sense!!!
Yes the message was descended on one man but for the benefit of the whole mankind. So its the event not the messanger who is our concern but the message. Its not a local even but a universal one, and it cannot be repeated in a mock exercise round the globe.
The 'night of measure' was a special night it was a night, during which there was night in one side of the world, afternoon at the other or early morning, what ever in other parts but, as Nun says in his last post "Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflect!!!In verse 2189 are you translating 'ahillah' as 'moon'
I did not translate the verse as I am not like some who manipulate translations according to their theory I said this
The moon (not full) is used to calculate events a timing device used to mark fixed periods of time 2189
Yes full cycle of moon from start to finish from one cresent to last one. I hope I made it clear now.I read the rest of your post about 'sanah' and ''aam' and as I was looking over this issue I also realized that maybe now I can look into these two words. Since I haven't done so yet I really can't comment on this part but when I do we can exchange viewpoints on it.
It will benefit us all if we consider this
1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!Also if you can answer some of the questions I raised initially, directly, I would appreciate that. Take care all
If you read my replies in this thread it does answer your concerns, and its backed by the verses of the Quran. In my last reply to you I did reply to your questions by saying
I am 100% convinced that the solstice moon has no bearing on ascertaining the month of fasting.Regarding the subject of witness now more signs for all and following Nun's post, how many more proof do you need after this
Peace all --
2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait for four months...
92 So walk/go/travel in the earth, four months?
How much time exactly does travel freely four full moons?
936 That the months' number/count at God (are) twelve in God's scripture, (on) the day He created the skies/space and the earth, from it four (are) sacred?
12 full moons which 4 full moons (i.e. sightings/snapshots) are sacred? What does that mean?
Time is continuous (infinite snapshots) from a point in time to another point in time.
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/C_solarcorona2003.gif
To bear witness is to have knowledge of a thing which is not always physical.
Surah 85
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZrM7qYYrM
Peace
-
Peace Farida,
From the above observations I understand that "sana(t)" is used when referring to seasonal events ie harvest or restricted months and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon so in this type of calculations the summer solstice may be used As restricted/sacred month was observed by the pagans too. I wonder if sana(t) is the year which was used when it was divided into four/six season were used in a year prior to Islam.
And 3am is the years which take into account of seasonal as well as fixed term and making the total number of months 12.Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.
When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 928, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 937, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 936.
This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg" being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.
Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Farida,
Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.
When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 928, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 937, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 936.
This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg" being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.
Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam Ayman,
If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot of attention to my last post to Umm Tariq and then say thanks to me.WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.
peace
-
Peace Farida,
If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.Logically, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.
WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!The word YEARS doesn't occur in 1812.
I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.
I think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and this is why you want to work out the best calculation for the term. This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 391. To put it in other terms, we shouldn't be stuck in paralysis in the traditional understanding while we are doing more analysis.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace,
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color). But how do we know this is pink eye?
I did a great injustice to this discusion by not looking up these quotes of yours before
(Translation She did not apply anitmony (to her eyes) until her eyes started to burn.)
(if the feminine taktahil refers to the eyes then the translation is They (the eyes) were bothered until her eyes started to burn.)
In lisan al-arab iktahala is likened to kuhhala (passive of kahhala) and it says 'jufoonu 3uyoonin bil-qadhaa lam tukahhal' (The eyelids of the eyes with a foreign particle in them are not unbothered/at rest/at ease/refershed) it says that takahhala and iktahhala can be used the same way.
(Her eyes were pricked until they started to burn)
(shakka is to prick or jab with a lance an arrow or anything sharp, taskhakkaa would be a constant state of being pricked.)
So again, no mention of pink eye here. Ayman you are acting like pink eye is the only disease of the eye. And these contexts are talking about a disease of the eye that is cured most likely with antimony and that make the eyes BURN. That is the meaning of tarmidaan and tarmid here; TO BURN (To be or feel extremely hot (not to carbonize))
Now I am not being arugmentative but you are injected red into the meaning of ramada when burning is the only meaning there. Even iktahala is when the eyes are refreshed from sleep or from being healed and when they DON'T BURN. iktahala is the relief of the eyes from burning or the application of antimony to heal the eyes.
Please stop this interjection of meaning. There is nothing here that says that this is talking about pink eye or red eyes. It is talking about burning eyes in particular. The redness is optional, and not in the meaning here.
Thank you for the quotes. It is a shame most people cannot read Arabic well enough to see that you are injecting the color red into these quotes (you are injected pink eye as well) without red being there.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).
This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Farida,
Logically, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.
Peace,
Ayman
Salaam
Yes and yours is not a simple explanation, not even logically sound I paste here what I wrote earlier
"Why not use simple common sense!!!
Yes the message was descended on one man but for the benefit of the whole mankind. So its the event not the messanger who is our concern but the message. Its not a local even but a universal one, and it cannot be repeated in a mock exercise round the globe.
The 'night of measure' was a special night it was a night, during which there was night in one side of the world, afternoon at the other or early morning, what ever in other parts but, as Nun says in his last post "Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflect"The word YEARS doesn't occur in 1812.
Thanks for reminding, Its duly noted. I only took this from a Qur'an search, in English, under "years". Looks like someone added words they desired P.
I think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 391.
Nor is your version credible it refuted by the Qur'an. Alhumdullilah I am following the best avaliable route. Who is more intellegent only Allah knows, but beware that Satan uses intelligence to mislead.
I don't beleive that you are seriously intersted in working with others for the benefit of the deen. It appears for you its your way or no way.this is why you want to work out the best calculation for the term.
I am truly in search of the truth about sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long 2914To put it in other terms, we shouldn't be stuck in paralysis in the traditional understanding while we are doing more analysis
I think you are completely exhausted and "stuck in paralysis" after working on your Summer Solstice Scorching Full Moon Theory and could not contribute further but No worries just look at all the brilliant minds on free-minds and outside free-mind I'm sure the best calculations will be reached in due time. sun
peace
-
Salaam belal
Where is your qur'aanic proof that "hami'a" is a description of colour/blazing?
Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
Salam -
From Arabic Classical dictionaries
sana/sineen periods of little/no rain/dryness/drought
Peace;
When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year. -
Peace;
When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.Salaam belal
I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.
-
Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
SalamPeace Progod
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan(
Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)
Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).
peace
is black mud and is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.
-
Salaam belal
I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.
Would you agree, based on the verses I provided, that we can not say that Sana means Drought?
Also, the verse you quoted does not have to be Drought, but could mean other meanings. It could mean that for years God punished the people of Pharos.is black mud and is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.
Agree based on verses 15-26, 28. But in these verses The Mud could be Red Mud as well; don't you agree? thus, The meaning I refered to could be right, if we take the root word for Hamma'a into consideration. The Root word is "Hamia", which means HOT.
peace -
Peace Ayman,
This is another case of you taking things too far. A burning sensation and the color red are not the same. These quotes are obviously referring to the burning sensation and NOT redness. To guess redness is adding a meaning that is not there, by conjecture. Not everyone's thighs turn red either. That depends on how dark their thighs are. And not all Arabs are light-skinned Arabs. In any case this is typical you. You should just admit that you are inserting your own meanings into these contexts. Because redness, which is humr, is not there. If Ramada referred to redness there would be an obvious meaning of Ihmarra (to turn red) or hamira (to be red). There is no need to change the meaning of a word based on what YOU think it should be, instead of what is actually mentioned.
The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.' That is what would have to be there to say that ramada implies redness. So now you are doing what a great deal of Free-minders used to do with words inside of the Quran (changing their meanings to what they think they should mean despite what the definition of the word really is), but now you are doing it to the words in the context of the dictionaries. Great Job! Not.
Godbless,
AnwarPeace Anwar,
Quote from progod on Today at 074242 AM
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Anwar,
The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.'
The dictionary doesn't say that "strawberries with the logical and normal connotation that these strawberries, and everything else that has strawberries involved, is red". Yet somehow, English-speaking people know that when people mention "strawberry moon" they talk about the moon around the summer solstice because that is when strawberries are harvested and because it is RED. Similarly, ancient Arabs undoubtedly knew that when people mention "scorching full-moon" they talk about the full-moon after the summer solstice because that is when the weather is hot and it is RED.
Let me put it in a simpler way so that maybe you can get it. You have two people in front of you. One has normal white eyes and the other one has red eyes. One of them complains that their eyes are scorching. Which one do you think it is? The answer is clear.
Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.
Peace Ayman
Can I answer?
Thank you
I will choose the one that is more RedPeace everyone,
2185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it
Which is Ramadan?
Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon
http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg
Harvest Moon - September
http//www.earthsky.org/images/13821.jpg
This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.
Hunter's Moon - October
http//www.nightskyinfo.com/sky_highlights/hunters_moon/full_moon_small.jpg
With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.
That would be the Hunter Moon and I would never choose the Solistic Moon because it looks whiter !.
Note, Rammadan does not mean Red or Hot, nor Shaher means Full Moon, according to Quran )