Hot/"ramadan" Answer

farida

Peace Farida,

Wow I think that you might have just solved the question that has been bugging me for so long. Excellent work.

When I pondered on what you wrote and checked the passages where the words "3am" and "sanat" occur, I noticed something interesting that you indicated and that differentiates those two terms. In 928, we hear the god refering to "3am" as "their 3am". Why is this? You provided the answer in your analysis. It is because, as you said, "sanat" refers to the natural annual seasonal cycle and it is not fixed for the whole mankind but rotates according to movement of sun and the moon. On the other hand, from the passage "3am" was the year in the specific calendar used by the Arab audience at the time of the revelation of the passage and thus it is "their 3am". In 937, we hear the word "3am" again as referring to the Arab's specific calendar system in contrast to the god's natural system (the day he created the heavens and the earth) in 936.

This newly found understanding about the difference between "3am" and "sanat" further points to the period of the restriction and thus the timing of the fast and the feast ("hagg&quot being in accordance with the god's natural system and not specific manmade calendars that are fixed for certain people at certain times in history.

Thank you sister and may the god reward you for your efforts and bless you and have mercy on us all.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam Ayman,

If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot of attention to my last post to Umm Tariq and then say thanks to me.

WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!

I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.

peace

ayman

Peace Farida,

If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.

Logically, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.

WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!

The word YEARS doesn't occur in 1812.

I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.

I think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and this is why you want to work out the best calculation for the term. This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 391. To put it in other terms, we shouldn't be stuck in paralysis in the traditional understanding while we are doing more analysis.

Peace,

Ayman

progod

Peace,

I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color). But how do we know this is pink eye?

I did a great injustice to this discusion by not looking up these quotes of yours before

(Translation She did not apply anitmony (to her eyes) until her eyes started to burn.)

(if the feminine taktahil refers to the eyes then the translation is They (the eyes) were bothered until her eyes started to burn.)

In lisan al-arab iktahala is likened to kuhhala (passive of kahhala) and it says 'jufoonu 3uyoonin bil-qadhaa lam tukahhal' (The eyelids of the eyes with a foreign particle in them are not unbothered/at rest/at ease/refershed) it says that takahhala and iktahhala can be used the same way.

(Her eyes were pricked until they started to burn)

(shakka is to prick or jab with a lance an arrow or anything sharp, taskhakkaa would be a constant state of being pricked.)

So again, no mention of pink eye here. Ayman you are acting like pink eye is the only disease of the eye. And these contexts are talking about a disease of the eye that is cured most likely with antimony and that make the eyes BURN. That is the meaning of tarmidaan and tarmid here; TO BURN (To be or feel extremely hot (not to carbonize))

Now I am not being arugmentative but you are injected red into the meaning of ramada when burning is the only meaning there. Even iktahala is when the eyes are refreshed from sleep or from being healed and when they DON'T BURN. iktahala is the relief of the eyes from burning or the application of antimony to heal the eyes.

Please stop this interjection of meaning. There is nothing here that says that this is talking about pink eye or red eyes. It is talking about burning eyes in particular. The redness is optional, and not in the meaning here.

Thank you for the quotes. It is a shame most people cannot read Arabic well enough to see that you are injecting the color red into these quotes (you are injected pink eye as well) without red being there.

Godbless,
Anwar

progod

Peace,

And what about Hawl ?

Godbless,
Anwar

ayman

Peace Anwar,

I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).

This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Farida,

Logically, the simplest explanation is usually the most correct.

Peace,

Ayman

Salaam

Yes and yours is not a simple explanation, not even logically sound I paste here what I wrote earlier
"Why not use simple common sense!!!
Yes the message was descended on one man but for the benefit of the whole mankind. So its the event not the messanger who is our concern but the message. Its not a local even but a universal one, and it cannot be repeated in a mock exercise round the globe.
The 'night of measure' was a special night it was a night, during which there was night in one side of the world, afternoon at the other or early morning, what ever in other parts but, as Nun says in his last post "Time is continuous " so the event continued from then onward and has been revolving around the globe so everyone can witness that night as it falls in their region. This is the simple logic and this is the truth for those who reflect"

The word YEARS doesn't occur in 1812.

Thanks for reminding, Its duly noted. I only took this from a Qur'an search, in English, under "years". Looks like someone added words they desired P.

I think that everyone who doesn't have an inflated ego knows that the traditional timing has ZERO support in the great reading and This is fine but until a better understanding is found, we should follow the best available understanding at this stage and which keeps getting better and more confirmed (see 391.

Nor is your version credible it refuted by the Qur'an. Alhumdullilah I am following the best avaliable route. Who is more intellegent only Allah knows, but beware that Satan uses intelligence to mislead.
I don't beleive that you are seriously intersted in working with others for the benefit of the deen. It appears for you its your way or no way.

this is why you want to work out the best calculation for the term.

I am truly in search of the truth about sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long 2914

To put it in other terms, we shouldn't be stuck in paralysis in the traditional understanding while we are doing more analysis

I think you are completely exhausted and "stuck in paralysis" after working on your Summer Solstice Scorching Full Moon Theory and could not contribute further but No worries just look at all the brilliant minds on free-minds and outside free-mind I'm sure the best calculations will be reached in due time. sun

peace

belH

Salaam belal

Where is your qur'aanic proof that "hami'a" is a description of colour/blazing?

Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
Salam

belH

From Arabic Classical dictionaries

sana/sineen periods of little/no rain/dryness/drought

Peace;

When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.

Samia

Peace;

When reading the Quran verses where Sana is used, the meaning that you suggested, period of Drought, is wrong.
When reading 2-96, 5-26, 22-47, 32-5 ,46-15, 12-42 and others, I think that Sana is Year.

Salaam belal

I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.

Samia

Peace Samia;
If you believe it means something else, then please let me know.
Then I will have to prove to you, by Quran, if your or my meaning is supported by Quran.
Salam

Peace Progod
Good point; please let me remind you of a verse where God was refering to something similar to what you say; please note that he did not use the Word Rammadan

(&#65279

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of Blazen (Scorching) water. And he found near it a people. We said "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness." (18-86)

Please note the Frequancy of the Words in the Quran that were used to refer to Hot (or scorching).

peace

is black mud and is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.

belH

Salaam belal

I quoted only one verse, not quoted by you, where sineen means "little rain/draught. Does this mean you agree? I clearly said the other verses do not have that meaning explicitly, and asked for opinions.

Would you agree, based on the verses I provided, that we can not say that Sana means Drought?
Also, the verse you quoted does not have to be Drought, but could mean other meanings. It could mean that for years God punished the people of Pharos.

is black mud and is an adjective meaning like black mud or a spring of black mud or water mixed with black mud.

Agree based on verses 15-26, 28. But in these verses The Mud could be Red Mud as well; don't you agree? thus, The meaning I refered to could be right, if we take the root word for Hamma'a into consideration. The Root word is "Hamia", which means HOT.
peace

progod

Peace Ayman,

This is another case of you taking things too far. A burning sensation and the color red are not the same. These quotes are obviously referring to the burning sensation and NOT redness. To guess redness is adding a meaning that is not there, by conjecture. Not everyone's thighs turn red either. That depends on how dark their thighs are. And not all Arabs are light-skinned Arabs. In any case this is typical you. You should just admit that you are inserting your own meanings into these contexts. Because redness, which is humr, is not there. If Ramada referred to redness there would be an obvious meaning of Ihmarra (to turn red) or hamira (to be red). There is no need to change the meaning of a word based on what YOU think it should be, instead of what is actually mentioned.

The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.' That is what would have to be there to say that ramada implies redness. So now you are doing what a great deal of Free-minders used to do with words inside of the Quran (changing their meanings to what they think they should mean despite what the definition of the word really is), but now you are doing it to the words in the context of the dictionaries. Great Job! Not.

Godbless,
Anwar

Peace Anwar,

Quote from progod on Today at 074242 AM
I never claimed that if someone's eyes burned they turned any color. Most times they do turn red (sometimes they don't turn any color).

This is all that needed to be acknowledged. We are talking about normal mundane common connotations and not about exceptions.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Anwar,

The dictionary doesn't say 'Burning eyes with the logical and normal connotation that these eyes, and everything else that has strong heat involved, are red.'

The dictionary doesn't say that "strawberries with the logical and normal connotation that these strawberries, and everything else that has strawberries involved, is red". Yet somehow, English-speaking people know that when people mention "strawberry moon" they talk about the moon around the summer solstice because that is when strawberries are harvested and because it is RED. Similarly, ancient Arabs undoubtedly knew that when people mention "scorching full-moon" they talk about the full-moon after the summer solstice because that is when the weather is hot and it is RED.

Let me put it in a simpler way so that maybe you can get it. You have two people in front of you. One has normal white eyes and the other one has red eyes. One of them complains that their eyes are scorching. Which one do you think it is? The answer is clear.

Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Now you have two full-moons in front of you. One is white and the other is red. One of them is described exactly like the eyes as the scorching full-moon. Which one do you think it is? The answer is again clear. If you have a clearer and more common sense answer, then please share it instead of hurling useless dogmatic and prejudiced arguments.

Peace Ayman
Can I answer?
Thank you
I will choose the one that is more Red

Peace everyone,

2185 Shahr Ramadan, which the Quran was descended in it

Which is Ramadan?

Solstice Moon Illusion June 16, 2008 Full Strawberry Moon or Rose Moon

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

Harvest Moon - September

http//www.earthsky.org/images/13821.jpg

This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.

Hunter's Moon - October

http//www.nightskyinfo.com/sky_highlights/hunters_moon/full_moon_small.jpg

With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.

That would be the Hunter Moon and I would never choose the Solistic Moon because it looks whiter !.

Note, Rammadan does not mean Red or Hot, nor Shaher means Full Moon, according to Quran )

Umm_Tariq

Peace be upon all,

"You are a new member here and I hardly know you, I am surprised that you are offended by my general statement where I used the word "we"; that means including myself, I am sorry, its your problem if you took it as directed towards you. However I have highlighed above in red ,in your reply, where you are calling yourself part of Ayman's camp even though you say that you need to study this subject.
You seek refuge with the god from arrogance, so do I, but I do not see Ayman doing that, as he clearly wants to impose his theory or he calls others ignorant, "those who are lost" to him he is the only informed one and his is the "simple and elegant method" Roll Eyes"

Farida, you using 'we' is still an assumption on your part about 'everyone else', just talk about yourself might be better. Like I said, it doesn't help in a mutual discussion where people are trying to learn. Why is it that if two people, from two completely different backgrounds happen to come to the same conclusion on what something means in the god's book it becomes one or the other's 'camp'? Ayman was not in my house when I first began reading people's articles and posts and holding a gun to my head for me to only accept what he says! I investigated what I read and if I agreed alhamdulillah and if I didn't alhamdulillah. Does anyone here agree with everything any other person says? This is what I mean Farida, having to go off topic because you insist on making such comments and personal attacks on others, IT DOESN"T HELP!!! And because I am new just trying to seek more information, I do not need you throwing your hatred for someone else towards me just because I happen to agree with one of their opinions that is based on the god's book. You two should make peace between each other and all who like to throw around personal insults should refrain from doing so. Be straightforward but don't make assumptions without proof or just trying to provoke others. Farida, you talk about how Ayman acts but when I read your posts, I see that you feel just as strong as well about your opinions and in my opinion you can be very offensive about it as well. As a new member, when I read your posts, I feel turned off from even seeing what you have to say because of how offensive you are. This is my honest observation. Is it all necessary? Can we be firm, but yet openminded, about our opinions based on the reading without being offensive to one another??

"Also, as far as the descending of the reading, we do know that it was sent down upon one man, the messenger/ prophet Muhammad and he was in a particular area. We can also try looking at it from this angle."

This was just a suggestion really. Your truth is not necessarily someone else's truth, THE TRUTH is in the god's book and we can all try our best to understanding it properly.

Here are my exact questions again 'bold' if you can answer from your viewpoint anew or cut and paste from where you believe you already answered them since I cannot find them.

"...It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it."

"In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "

"When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 95, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?" (If you are not following the sunni traditionalist calendar as it is, you believe it is different in some way, then please share your opinion about that, i.e. which are the 4 hurum in your opinion.)

"Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?"

I am asking these questions to any who believe that 'shahr' means 'month'. I would like these questions answered from this perspective so I can compare, that's all. I appreciate anyone's input.

Umm Tariq

Umm_Tariq

Peace Ayman,

"This would depend on when the event of the full-moon occured. Remember your excellent analogy of full-moons and menstruations. The number of days will depend on when those events occur in relation to the start of the counting."

Yes and I did update that point in a later post by mentioning 'in the minimum' it's off by a 'month'.

"I don't think that anyone (including me) can say with certainty what 3412 is talking about. "

( O Our Lord, increase us in knowledge.

"A year with 13 full-moons occurs every three years and interestingly this simple and elegant method given in 936 would automatically and accurately maintain the lunar cycle in sync with the seasons."

Have you personally been counting the full moons yourself since you came to this conclusion about 'shahr' and noticed this happened during your count? I intend to start this myself, it would be the first time I ever did such in my life, now there's a good reason to try it.

Of course all of the praise and thanks is to the god for any good and for what helps increase us in knowledge and wisdom. I didn't see anything wrong with thanking you personally for your post since it was informative for me alhamdulillah. May the god reward us all for our sincere efforts and guide us to the truth in which the people differ.

Umm Tariq

unknownuser

Peace Umm Tariq,

"In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month.

....However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "

There is no disagreement; depends on date of divorce and menstrual cycle.

Full Moon/Menstrual Dates 2008
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.

If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months

If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum

For 2228 we are to use 3 menstrual cycles as stated, whereas...

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?

How should women past menopause (average age 45 to 55) read the above?

Wait 4 full moons/menstrual cycles and 10 days -- how does that work?

For 2234 we are to use 4 months and 10 days as stated.

Peace

Umm_Tariq

Peace Nun de Plume,

I appreciate your post. I understand what you mean about how the starting dates vary and which will vary the whole time waiting, this happens whether one uses 'full moon' or 'month. However, notice that I was referring to 'the minimum' in both verses. I was looking at the consistency of the two verses. In the minimum, if you translate 654 using 'full moon' then it will automatically equal the time in 2228, in the minimum. You see what I am talking about? If you use 'month' then, in the minimum, they do not agree and that's what for me, gives weight to 'full moon'. Yeah, I just noticed something, you only put possible dates based on the menstrual cycles which is a clear marker. If we do the same for the women in 654 using 'month' (this is my contention) then this is what we get

Full Moon/Month Dates 2008
September 15 415 A.M.
October 14 304 P.M.
November 13 1219 A.M.
December 12 1038 A.M.

If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'months', until Jan. 13th.

If divorce is on Oct. 13 she waits for 3 'full moons' until Dec. 12th (2 'months' approx.)

If divorce is on Oct 13 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 2 months

If divorce is on Sept. 16 she waits for 3 'full moons' (just shy of 3 months total)\

If divorce is on Sept 16 she waits 3 menstrual cycles or 3 months maximum

You see the agreement between menstrual cycles calculations and full moons as opposed to using 'months' outright? In the minimum case for 'months', 3 months is 3 months.

For 2228 we are to use 3 menstrual cycles as stated, whereas...

2234 And those who are made to die from you, and they leave spouses/wives, they (the wives) wait with themselves four months, and ten (days)?

How should women past menopause (average age 45 to 55) read the above?

Wait 4 full moons/menstrual cycles and 10 days -- how does that work?

For 2234 we are to use 4 months and 10 days as stated.

Peace

I don't see the difference in how women past menopause read the above since it's for whoever's husband has died. They of course can't count by menstrual cycles but they can count by 'full moons' as well which as you can see would come out, in the minimum to be 3 'months' and 10 days. Using the dates example helped bring more clarity to the issue.

Umm Tariq

farida

Peace be upon all,
Farida, you using 'we' is still an assumption on your part about 'everyone else', just talk about yourself might be better.

Salaam Umm Tariq,
I am sorry I do not look at it that way.

Like I said, it doesn't help in a mutual discussion where people are trying to learn. ..... I investigated what I read and if I agreed alhamdulillah and if I didn't alhamdulillah. Does anyone here agree with everything any other person says?

If you are honestly trying to learn, then how come you are ignoring excellent points raised by
progod Anwar, I commend his patience in this thread, he has honestly and unbiasly covered the linguistic approach to many words; that makes no sense to you?
Nun de plume, excellent observation with regards to the summer solstice full moon an impressive calculation,
Belalhammad summed up Put yourself in the Prophet postion, would you prepare for a war four weeks before the 4 restricted month?
Verse 9-81 is after the 4 restricted Months, when the prophet had 8 month to go for a very important and hard war.
9-81 is the verse that collapsed the foundation of Ayman's theory, as you said in regard of Progod.
You have learned nothing from these posts ???

This is what I mean Farida, having to go off topic because you insist on making such comments and personal attacks on others, IT DOESN"T HELP!!!

Yes I too dislike when topic is derailed and people are distracted from the actul issues. AND I MADE NO SUCH PERSONAL ATTACK ON YOU OR ANYONE ELSE. I DO NOT KNOW YOU PERSONALLY NO DO I HAVE ANY SUCH DESIRE.

And because I am new just trying to seek more information, I do not need you throwing your hatred for someone else towards me just because I happen to agree with one of their opinions that is based on the god's book.

I am NOT throwing hatred towards anyone; I am simply defending my faith.

You two should make peace between each other and all who like to throw around personal insults should refrain from doing so. Be straightforward but don't make assumptions without proof or just trying to provoke others. Farida, you talk about how Ayman acts but when I read your posts, I see that you feel just as strong as well about your opinions and in my opinion you can be very offensive about it as well. As a new member, when I read your posts, I feel turned off from even seeing what you have to say because of how offensive you are. This is my honest observation. Is it all necessary? Can we be firm, but yet openminded, about our opinions based on the reading without being offensive to one another??

Maybe you missed this post of mine too

Salaam Ayman,

I notice you have been ignoring my posts of late. If, in any way, I have offended you please understand it was not malicious but sometimes, in order to reach a conclusion, one needs to be frank and straightforward.
I would like to thank you for inviting me to take part in this discussion, and let me tell you it has been the most productive ten day of the month of Ramadan for me, and a lot of the credit goes to you for making us find out the truth ourselves.

Best regards
farida

I hope you notice that I received no response to my appeal above just because I disagreed with Ayman BTW you would exempt the blinds (positive discrimination) from fasting too ???

This was just a suggestion really. Your truth is not necessarily someone else's truth,

I too only gave my common sense approach, which coincides with the truth that time continues.

THE TRUTH is in the god's book and we can all try our best to understanding it properly. Here are my exact questions again 'bold' if you can answer from your viewpoint anew or cut and paste from where you believe you already answered them since I cannot find them.

"...It hasn't made any sense to me 'witness/ see a month'. Looking at the Saudi sunni translations that I have with me, they add the words 'the new moon of' before 'month'. This is another indication to me that something is not right since the god uses the word for 'new moon', as they understand it, in the reading 'ahillah' but He is not using it in this verse, why? However, if the meaning is full moon then there is no need to 'perfect' it."

Maybe you missed this post too which btw. is backed by "THE TRUTH is in the god's book"
Re Hot/"ramadan" Answer
? Reply #258 on September 09, 2008, 013650 PM ?

Therefore I don't need to remind that for all answers here (unless one's personal opinion) we need to give evidence from the Quran and on the subject of witnessing Ramadan, please correct me if I am wrong, the verses below confirm that it?s not only eyes and ears that bear witness, but even one?s skin bears witness.

4120 At length, when they reach the (Fire), their hearing, their sight, and their SKINs will bear witness against them, as to (all) their deeds.

4121 They will say to their SKINs "Why bear ye witness against us?" They will say "(Allah) hath given us speech,- (He) Who giveth speech to everything He created you for the first time, and unto Him were ye to return.

4122 "Ye did not seek to hide yourselves, lest your hearing, your sight, and your SKINs should bear witness against you! But ye did think that Allah knew not many of the things that ye used to do!

I would therefore ask Ayman again Do you still think there is no obligation on the blind to fast and, if so, where is the evidence for that

All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.

"In 2228, the god mentions that the divorced women wait for 3 quruu' which means menstrual cycles. As I understand it, when you see that the first cycle has begun, you begin counting. The second comes, you still wait and when the 3rd begins your waiting is over. This count is also by a clear 'seeing' something that can't be mistaken. That would be in minimum, equivalent to '2 months' time as we understand month. However, in verse 654, the god says that for the women that don't have menses anymore, if you doubt, then their count is 3 ashhur and for those who didn't have a menstrual cycle. If this means '3 months' then these 2 verses don't agree. If '3 months' is correct then why the difference? If we take '3 full moons' then that also equals to verse 2228 in the minimum. I don't see any reason why it should be different and I believe the clue is in the words 'if you doubt'. "

You have an eloquent reply to your query above, posted by Nun de plume , which is a great help for someone like me, I am sure you would learn a lot with the post exchange.Thanks Nun.

"When I read this verse for meaning the first time I noticed that these '4 ashhur' should be consecutive, it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Then in verse 95, the god confirms that these '4 ashhur' are the 4 hurum. How can I follow a lunar calendar that has separated the 4 hurum and also rotates through the seasons thereby constantly changing the 4 hurum?" (If you are not following the sunni traditionalist calendar as it is, you believe it is different in some way, then please share your opinion about that, i.e. which are the 4 hurum in your opinion.)
"Where in the reading is it even remotely suggested that the 4 ashhur hurum are not constant from year to year?"

I repeat what I wrote earlier
I am truly in search of the truth about the sacred months and that's what we need to work out and the reason I'm looking for the best calculation is this Talking about the age of Nuh (Noah) both the words for year are used in this verse but the count together is coming up to a thousand less fifty years, and no one can possibly live for that long.
So here is the clue if we were to combine the calculation of "3am" and "sana(t)" it would be unrealistically long 2914

Salaam Ayman,

If you read my post you would notice that I do not have an inflated ego and I do not feel ashamed to acknowledge something worth considering.
The two Models for counting I mentioned means two types of calculations and it needs lots of brilliant minds here to work it out, it is not as simple as you think.
When it comes to celebrating the month of fasting your mode of calculation is NOT ACCEPTABLE as the Night of Measure was the birth of an event and for that we need fixed term calculations using the phases of the moon --- lunar calendar if that's what you call it.
Please do pay a lot of attention to my last post to Umm Tariq and then say thanks to me.

WE CAN NOT TAKE ONE VIEW BUT NEED BACKING FROM THE QUR'AN FOR ALL OUR STUDIES and only with combined efforts can we resolve this.
Pay attention to this 1812 Then We roused them, in order to test which of the two parties was best at calculating the term of YEARS they had tarried!

I would invite you to join hands with everyone to work out the best calculation for the term.

peace

ayman

Peace Umm Tariq,

Have you personally been counting the full moons yourself since you came to this conclusion about 'shahr' and noticed this happened during your count? I intend to start this myself, it would be the first time I ever did such in my life, now there's a good reason to try it.

Yes, we do have to count only 12 and skip counting the occasional 13th full-moon as per 936. This year's solar cycle was precisely such cycle that had 13 full-moons between the two summer solstice. So I counted 12 and I skipped counting the 13th full-moon on June 18th

Summer Solstice 2007

JUNE 30, 2007 (scorching full moon 2007)
JULY 30, 2007
AUG 28, 2007
SEPT 26, 2007
OCT 26, 2007
NOV 24, 2007
DEC 24, 2007
JAN 22, 2008
FEB 21, 2008
MAR 21, 2008
APR 20, 2008
MAY 20, 2008
JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip)
Summer Solstice 2008
JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 200

Therefore, the marker, the "scorching full moon", became the one that we witnessed on July 17th. This also automatically adjusted the full-moon cycle so that it is in sync with the seasons. Please note that this method is independent of any manmade calendar and thus can be used in conjunction with any calendar (for example, the Gregorian calendar as above or even the so-called Islamic calendar) or without any calendar.

Peace,

Ayman