SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?
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Peace,
We know day starts exactly at dawn (white thread);
what time should we set the standard for when the night begins and whose eyesight do we use?1778 Perform AsSalat from mid-day till the darkness of the night...
Why till the "darkness of the night" and not till the night? Is the night becoming darker?
20130 So bear patiently what they say, and glorify the praises of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during some of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day, that you may become pleased with the reward which Allah shall give you.
327 You make the night enter in the daytime, and You make the daytime enter in the night.
When does this happen if not exactly at dawn and sunset?
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);The clearest definition of sunset....
http//i34.tinypic.com/2qun98y.jpg
Peace
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I think, so far,
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."
is the best argument that night does not begin at sun set.
nonetheless,
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);is not bad as an argument that night begins at sun set....
??? ??? ???
so when we have to break fast? eat Other opinions?
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A night could be dark, or be relatively less dark, depends upon the phase of moon, but it does not contain the daylight in it(sunlight) , either direct or through refraction due to atmosphere even when the sun is a few degrees below the horizon . A night without moon will probably be called a dark night ,
In my opinion,the best argument against breaking fast at sun set is ,
"Had he wanted us to break fast at sun set, he would have definitely used the precise words depicting a very precise parameter, which is Ghoroub ul shams".
peace
siki
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Peace,
Respectfully.Is it possible thatw e have been missing this the night begins at sunset but it is FULLY NIGHT at the dusk?
After all, the night, just like a day, must have a start, right?
I've been fasting from dawn untill sunset but i always had this in my mind if the day begins at dawn and it is fully day at sunrise, then, by that logic, night will also begin at sunset but be fully night at the dusk, am i correct?Beginning of the night is not night, correct?
Night is when night is, right?Your responses have given me plenty of proofs, thanks and keep 'em coming.
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
Today I was outside at dawn (exactly 604 am in my area) it was getting light.
A few minutes later at 610 am I was looking at stars that were clearly visible in the sky.
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Peace everyone,
I think, so far,
676 When the night covered him, he saw a planet, and he said "This is my Lord." But when it disappeared he said "I do not like those that disappear."
is the best argument that night does not begin at sun set.
nonetheless,
911-3
And by the sun and its brightness;
And by the moon as it follows it (the sun);
And by the night as it conceals it (the sun);is not bad as an argument that night begins at sun set....
??? ??? ???
so when we have to break fast? eat Other opinions?
My early dawn star gazing excursion this morning led me to investigate this further.
Civil twilight begins in the morning when the center of the Sun is less than 6? below the horizon, and ends at sunrise.
Evening civil twilight begins at sunset and ends when the center of the Sun is more than 6? below the horizon.
The brightest stars appear during civil twilight, as well as planets, such as Venus which has long been known as the 'morning star' or 'evening star'.
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Peace everyone,
My early dawn star gazing excursion this morning led me to investigate this further.
Civil twilight begins in the morning when the center of the Sun is less than 6? below the horizon, and ends at sunrise.
Evening civil twilight begins at sunset and ends when the center of the Sun is more than 6? below the horizon.
The brightest stars appear during civil twilight, as well as planets, such as Venus which has long been known as the 'morning star' or 'evening star'.
3190 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of UNDERSTANDING,-
God bless you.
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Salaamun all,
IMHO, sun has nothing to do with fasting as Allah has not used "Shams" in any ways in regards to fasting.
The word used is "Layl" that clearly means "Night". If we have to break our fast at sunset, other words might has used like "Ishaan" means "Evening" or "Ghuroob AlShams" means "Sunset".
But Allah used night which means darkness. Day, Night are opposite to each other. It can be seen or understand very easily by light and dark. But the parts between them while changing from day to night (Ishaan) are something else...
Regards,
mmKhan -
There is no contradiction between this aayah and the fact that the fast is broken after the sun sets, because night begins when the sun sets. The beginning of the night is sunset, and the end of the night is when dawn comes
1- What are the hours decreed for fasting?
The Quran outlines the fasting hours in the following verse
"You may eat and drink until the white thread of light becomes distinguishable from the dark thread of night at dawn. Then, you shall fast until the 'layl' (night)." 2187
From these words, abstaining from food and drink should start at the first thread of light at dawn (between an hour and 2 hours before sunrise, depending on the time of year), and maintained till night.
FIRST
Some have disputed regarding the exact time as to when 'night' actually starts? Does it start at sunset? or does the night start when all light has dissappeared from the sky?
As usual, and in accordance with God's promise (1889), the Quran offers explanations to all matters that concern our religion.
As we shall see, the definition of "LAYL" (night) in the Quran is from sunset to sunrise, hence the time after sunset and when there is still light in the sky is part of the night. Also the definition of "NAHAR" (day) is from sunrise to sunset.
This is made clear in the following verse
"He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the LAYL (night) over the NAHAR (day) and He rolls the NAHAR over the LAYL." 395
From this glorious verse we are told that the night and day are rolled into one another. This statement has very important significance on the definition of night and day (Layl and Nahar). This ayat tells us that part of the night (when the day is rolled into it) is actually lit (just after sunset) and that part of the day is still dark (just after sunrise). Consequently to say that night only starts when it is totally dark is not in agreement with Quranic truth.
The relevance of this with regards to the hours of fasting, and since the night starts at sunset, is that we should break our fasting at sunset.
SECOND
But the issue of when does the night start is not the only point of dispute here. Some have argued that we should break fasting when it is totally dark and not when the night starts (sunset). However once again, this is not in agreement with the Quranic command.
To demonstrate the correct meaning, consider the following sentence
A father tells his son "Drive on the left right on your journey through UK but when you get to France drive on the right."
What does this mean? does it mean that the son should start driving on the right AS SOON as he gets to France? or, when he has been in France for a while?
Obviously it means as soon as, it does NOT mean "after a while".
It is also like saying , "I started swimming when I got to the sea" .... this does not mean that I walked on the water for while then started swimming later inside the sea !!!
Thus when God says "maintain your fasting till night" then God means to the beginning of night and not a quarter or half way through.
If God wanted to say break your fasting when it is totally dark he would have said just that, God is never short of words
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Brother Afridi Salaaman,
FIRST
Some have disputed regarding the exact time as to when 'night' actually starts? Does it start at sunset? or does the night start when all light has dissappeared from the sky?
As usual, and in accordance with God's promise (1889), the Quran offers explanations to all matters that concern our religion.
As we shall see, the definition of "LAYL" (night) in the Quran is from sunset to sunrise, hence the time after sunset and when there is still light in the sky is part of the night. Also the definition of "NAHAR" (day) is from sunrise to sunset.
This is made clear in the following verse
"He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the LAYL (night) over the NAHAR (day) and He rolls the NAHAR over the LAYL." 395
From this glorious verse we are told that the night and day are rolled into one another. This statement has very important significance on the definition of night and day (Layl and Nahar). This ayat tells us that part of the night (when the day is rolled into it) is actually lit (just after sunset) and that part of the day is still dark (just after sunrise). Consequently to say that night only starts when it is totally dark is not in agreement with Quranic truth.
The relevance of this with regards to the hours of fasting, and since the night starts at sunset, is that we should break our fasting at sunset.
I don't understand your point here. Its simply your own interpretation brother. It has nothing to do the aayat quoted by you. Please try to understand what you wrote.
SECOND
But the issue of when does the night start is not the only point of dispute here. Some have argued that we should break fasting when it is totally dark and not when the night starts (sunset). However once again, this is not in agreement with the Quranic command.
Yes, my stand is also the same. Night does mean totally dark. And yes, it is 100% Quranic.
11114 And be constant in praying at the beginning and the end of the day, as well as during the early watches of the night for, verily, good deeds drive away evil deeds this is a reminder to all who bear in mind.
Waaqimi alssalata tarafayi alnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanati yuthhibna alssayyiati thalika thikra lilththakireena
(11114)
What means "Zulafam minal Layl" in this verse. And what is it refering to?
It is refering to Salaat alIshaan that we perform at sunset which is not Layl but Zulafam minal Layl.
To demonstrate the correct meaning, consider the following sentence
A father tells his son "Drive on the left right on your journey through UK but when you get to France drive on the right."
What does this mean? does it mean that the son should start driving on the right AS SOON as he gets to France? or, when he has been in France for a while?
Obviously it means as soon as, it does NOT mean "after a while".
It is also like saying , "I started swimming when I got to the sea" .... this does not mean that I walked on the water for while then started swimming later inside the sea !!!
Examples? I was suppose to look for the Truth, the aayaats. If you heard examples of idol worshipers (Mushrikeen), you will be shocked brother. They got lot more better examples than these, which may shake your stand.
Thus when God says "maintain your fasting till night" then God means to the beginning of night and not a quarter or half way through.
This is not Quraanic brother. You are deriving out that meaning from your own examples.
If God wanted to say break your fasting when it is totally dark he would have said just that, God is never short of words
True, please refer the verse 11114 and also a clear meaning of Layl in 3637
3637 And they have a sign in the night We withdraw from it the day - and lo! they are in darkness.
Waayatun lahumu allaylu naslakhu minhu alnnahara faitha hum muthlimoona
Please read carefully
Day is out - Night starts
Until Day is available - It is not nightMay Allah guide us all towards His path.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace,
Respectfully.I thought fasting should be broken at the sunset but now i'm convinced, unless proofs emerge to show otherwise, that fasting is stopped at NIGHT. Night begins when it is fully night outside. God willing.
Check this out
8416 So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417 And the night and what it is driven on.These two verses have put some more light into my investigation.
Thank God for guiding me.
God bless you.
Peace. -
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peace all,
From my studies so far
Quranic day is daytime. Quranic night is both morning and evening twilights and pitch black night.wakas
salamGhoroub ul shams is a marker, God's book is very precise, If the night starts at sun set , why didnt He use it ? Moreover , he precisely explains the start parameter leaving no confusion ,because had he said it "during the day/or daybreak" , people would be going through the debates that weather the day starts at dawn or sunrise.
For me it is no confusion, he says from dawnand then the Quran properly explains THE DAWN. And then it is till night, which has to be the Dusk , not sun set, because sun set is Ghorobul shams, absolutely no confusion.
peace
siki
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peace siki,
I do not understand the definitions you are using of dawn/sunrise, and sunset/dusk, so cant comment.
peace wakas
Quran uses the words "ALfajar" and ale'esha for the over lapping periods of day and night, and we call them dawn and dusk in english.
Dawn period is from the first light to sun rise. and dusk is , from sun set to last light . Both have their precise definitions in Al Quran.
Day starts at sun rise and finishes at sun set.
Night starts at last light and finishes at first light.
lets see 2-187
.... and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn( fajar), then complete the fast till night, ....
Fajar is not a precise marker , as it extends over a reasonable length of time, HE in his infinite mercy explains precisely, when to stop eating, by giving us a precise point of time during Fajar, which is, start of Fajar ,or end of the night.
And then complete the fast till night, that is start of the night. or when the dusk period finishes.
If we break fast at sun set , that time is not night , but start of isha (dusk), moreover had he wanted us to use this precise marker, he would have used more precise words for it , like Ghorubul al shams. (which he has used at many places in Quran) or Dulukul al shams.( sun touches/ rubs horizon)
He has described Isha in 17-78
You shall hold the assembly at the sun's setting until the darkness of the night, and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
Isha / dusk starts at daluk ul shams and ends at darkness of the night, and then the night starts.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
If we break fast at sun set , that time is not night , but start of isha (dusk), moreover had he wanted us to use this precise marker, he would have used more precise words for it , like Ghorubul al shams. (which he has used at many places in Quran) or Dulukul al shams.( sun touches/ rubs horizon)
I think that the marker as the start of night is very precise. Please explain how the god merges night into daylight and daylight into night (2261, 3129, 3513, 576) when according to you night starts when it is completely dark and there is no longer any daylight to merge into.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace siki,
I disagree with your view about what night is. Quranic night starts at evening twilight (when the sun becomes completely beneath the horizon) and ends at sunrise (when the sun first appears above the horizon). Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htmI linked to the above article in this thread already.
Specifically see 3637 which makes it clear night contains some light, i.e. includes twilight.
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
I think you are misunderstanding 3637.
It clearly says, "we remove the daylight from it". You cannot remove something from another thing if the other thing does not have that something. This shows that "layl"/night contains the "daylight", otherwise the daylight cannot be removed from the night. This is what 3637 tells us
Layl/night includes daylight and darkness. When you remove the daylight from it ---> darkness remains.
This does not mean night = darkness, but it means that night - daylight = darkness, or night = darkness + daylight.
night = daylight + darkness
night - daylight = (daylight + darkness) - daylight
night - daylight = darknessPOINT # 2
Verse 1778 mentions "until darkness of the night". If night = darkness, then "darkness of the night" will mean "darkness of darkness" which is ridiculous. If night = darkness, then God could have said "until night". Therefore night = darkness + something else.
POINT # 3
As Ayman pointed out, if night (layl) is separate from daytime (nahaar), then how can you merge one into the other? You can merge two things only if they overlap. Your understanding contradicts all the following
327 ?You merge the night into the daytime, and merge the daytime into the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and bring the dead out of the living; and You provide for whom You please with no reckoning.?
2261 That is because God merges the night in the daytime, and He merges the daytime in the night. And God is Hearer, Seer.
3129 Have you not seen that God merges the night into the daytime and merges the daytime into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
3513 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
395 He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He rolls the night over the daytime, and He rolls the daytime over the night. And He committed the sun and the moon, each running for an appointed term. Absolutely, He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
576 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
POINT # 4
8416 So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417 And the night and what it is driven on.This does not mean that dusk and night are different. In 8416 God is swearing by a part of night and in 8417 He is swearing by the complete night.
