SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?
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Brother Afridi Salaaman,
FIRST
Some have disputed regarding the exact time as to when 'night' actually starts? Does it start at sunset? or does the night start when all light has dissappeared from the sky?
As usual, and in accordance with God's promise (1889), the Quran offers explanations to all matters that concern our religion.
As we shall see, the definition of "LAYL" (night) in the Quran is from sunset to sunrise, hence the time after sunset and when there is still light in the sky is part of the night. Also the definition of "NAHAR" (day) is from sunrise to sunset.
This is made clear in the following verse
"He created the heavens and the earth truthfully. He rolls the LAYL (night) over the NAHAR (day) and He rolls the NAHAR over the LAYL." 395
From this glorious verse we are told that the night and day are rolled into one another. This statement has very important significance on the definition of night and day (Layl and Nahar). This ayat tells us that part of the night (when the day is rolled into it) is actually lit (just after sunset) and that part of the day is still dark (just after sunrise). Consequently to say that night only starts when it is totally dark is not in agreement with Quranic truth.
The relevance of this with regards to the hours of fasting, and since the night starts at sunset, is that we should break our fasting at sunset.
I don't understand your point here. Its simply your own interpretation brother. It has nothing to do the aayat quoted by you. Please try to understand what you wrote.
SECOND
But the issue of when does the night start is not the only point of dispute here. Some have argued that we should break fasting when it is totally dark and not when the night starts (sunset). However once again, this is not in agreement with the Quranic command.
Yes, my stand is also the same. Night does mean totally dark. And yes, it is 100% Quranic.
11114 And be constant in praying at the beginning and the end of the day, as well as during the early watches of the night for, verily, good deeds drive away evil deeds this is a reminder to all who bear in mind.
Waaqimi alssalata tarafayi alnnahari wazulafan mina allayli inna alhasanati yuthhibna alssayyiati thalika thikra lilththakireena
(11114)
What means "Zulafam minal Layl" in this verse. And what is it refering to?
It is refering to Salaat alIshaan that we perform at sunset which is not Layl but Zulafam minal Layl.
To demonstrate the correct meaning, consider the following sentence
A father tells his son "Drive on the left right on your journey through UK but when you get to France drive on the right."
What does this mean? does it mean that the son should start driving on the right AS SOON as he gets to France? or, when he has been in France for a while?
Obviously it means as soon as, it does NOT mean "after a while".
It is also like saying , "I started swimming when I got to the sea" .... this does not mean that I walked on the water for while then started swimming later inside the sea !!!
Examples? I was suppose to look for the Truth, the aayaats. If you heard examples of idol worshipers (Mushrikeen), you will be shocked brother. They got lot more better examples than these, which may shake your stand.
Thus when God says "maintain your fasting till night" then God means to the beginning of night and not a quarter or half way through.
This is not Quraanic brother. You are deriving out that meaning from your own examples.
If God wanted to say break your fasting when it is totally dark he would have said just that, God is never short of words
True, please refer the verse 11114 and also a clear meaning of Layl in 3637
3637 And they have a sign in the night We withdraw from it the day - and lo! they are in darkness.
Waayatun lahumu allaylu naslakhu minhu alnnahara faitha hum muthlimoona
Please read carefully
Day is out - Night starts
Until Day is available - It is not nightMay Allah guide us all towards His path.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace,
Respectfully.I thought fasting should be broken at the sunset but now i'm convinced, unless proofs emerge to show otherwise, that fasting is stopped at NIGHT. Night begins when it is fully night outside. God willing.
Check this out
8416 So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417 And the night and what it is driven on.These two verses have put some more light into my investigation.
Thank God for guiding me.
God bless you.
Peace. -
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peace all,
From my studies so far
Quranic day is daytime. Quranic night is both morning and evening twilights and pitch black night.wakas
salamGhoroub ul shams is a marker, God's book is very precise, If the night starts at sun set , why didnt He use it ? Moreover , he precisely explains the start parameter leaving no confusion ,because had he said it "during the day/or daybreak" , people would be going through the debates that weather the day starts at dawn or sunrise.
For me it is no confusion, he says from dawnand then the Quran properly explains THE DAWN. And then it is till night, which has to be the Dusk , not sun set, because sun set is Ghorobul shams, absolutely no confusion.
peace
siki
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peace siki,
I do not understand the definitions you are using of dawn/sunrise, and sunset/dusk, so cant comment.
peace wakas
Quran uses the words "ALfajar" and ale'esha for the over lapping periods of day and night, and we call them dawn and dusk in english.
Dawn period is from the first light to sun rise. and dusk is , from sun set to last light . Both have their precise definitions in Al Quran.
Day starts at sun rise and finishes at sun set.
Night starts at last light and finishes at first light.
lets see 2-187
.... and eat and drink until the whiteness of the day becomes distinct from the blackness of the night at dawn( fajar), then complete the fast till night, ....
Fajar is not a precise marker , as it extends over a reasonable length of time, HE in his infinite mercy explains precisely, when to stop eating, by giving us a precise point of time during Fajar, which is, start of Fajar ,or end of the night.
And then complete the fast till night, that is start of the night. or when the dusk period finishes.
If we break fast at sun set , that time is not night , but start of isha (dusk), moreover had he wanted us to use this precise marker, he would have used more precise words for it , like Ghorubul al shams. (which he has used at many places in Quran) or Dulukul al shams.( sun touches/ rubs horizon)
He has described Isha in 17-78
You shall hold the assembly at the sun's setting until the darkness of the night, and the Quran at dawn; the Quran at dawn has been witnessed.
Isha / dusk starts at daluk ul shams and ends at darkness of the night, and then the night starts.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
If we break fast at sun set , that time is not night , but start of isha (dusk), moreover had he wanted us to use this precise marker, he would have used more precise words for it , like Ghorubul al shams. (which he has used at many places in Quran) or Dulukul al shams.( sun touches/ rubs horizon)
I think that the marker as the start of night is very precise. Please explain how the god merges night into daylight and daylight into night (2261, 3129, 3513, 576) when according to you night starts when it is completely dark and there is no longer any daylight to merge into.
Peace,
Ayman
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peace siki,
I disagree with your view about what night is. Quranic night starts at evening twilight (when the sun becomes completely beneath the horizon) and ends at sunrise (when the sun first appears above the horizon). Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htmI linked to the above article in this thread already.
Specifically see 3637 which makes it clear night contains some light, i.e. includes twilight.
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
I think you are misunderstanding 3637.
It clearly says, "we remove the daylight from it". You cannot remove something from another thing if the other thing does not have that something. This shows that "layl"/night contains the "daylight", otherwise the daylight cannot be removed from the night. This is what 3637 tells us
Layl/night includes daylight and darkness. When you remove the daylight from it ---> darkness remains.
This does not mean night = darkness, but it means that night - daylight = darkness, or night = darkness + daylight.
night = daylight + darkness
night - daylight = (daylight + darkness) - daylight
night - daylight = darknessPOINT # 2
Verse 1778 mentions "until darkness of the night". If night = darkness, then "darkness of the night" will mean "darkness of darkness" which is ridiculous. If night = darkness, then God could have said "until night". Therefore night = darkness + something else.
POINT # 3
As Ayman pointed out, if night (layl) is separate from daytime (nahaar), then how can you merge one into the other? You can merge two things only if they overlap. Your understanding contradicts all the following
327 ?You merge the night into the daytime, and merge the daytime into the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and bring the dead out of the living; and You provide for whom You please with no reckoning.?
2261 That is because God merges the night in the daytime, and He merges the daytime in the night. And God is Hearer, Seer.
3129 Have you not seen that God merges the night into the daytime and merges the daytime into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
3513 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
395 He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He rolls the night over the daytime, and He rolls the daytime over the night. And He committed the sun and the moon, each running for an appointed term. Absolutely, He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
576 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
POINT # 4
8416 So I do swear by the redness of dusk.
8417 And the night and what it is driven on.This does not mean that dusk and night are different. In 8416 God is swearing by a part of night and in 8417 He is swearing by the complete night.
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peace siki,
I disagree with your view about what night is. Quranic night starts at evening twilight (when the sun becomes completely beneath the horizon) and ends at sunrise (when the sun first appears above the horizon). Please see
http//www.free-minds.org/articles/science/quranic.htmI linked to the above article in this thread already.
Specifically see 3637 which makes it clear night contains some light, i.e. includes twilight.
peace wakas
let me assure you i had gone through the article a couple of years ago. But,
An article is just an opinion of someone , and hence could be wrong/could be improved. let me tell you there are quite a few of them at free- minds , which can be categorised as trash.In my view 36-37 is an argument against your opionion.
36-37 Another sign for them is the night we remove the daylight therefrom, whereupon they are in darkness.
I interpret this as ,
untill and unless day light is removed (completely) from it , we cant call it a night.
or, it is not night till the time there is some day light in the night.
siki
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
I think you are misunderstanding 3637.
It clearly says, "we remove the daylight from it". You cannot remove something from another thing if the other thing does not have that something. This shows that "layl"/night contains the "daylight", otherwise the daylight cannot be removed from the night. This is what 3637 tells us
Layl/night includes daylight and darkness. When you remove the daylight from it ---> darkness remains.
This does not mean night = darkness, but it means that night - daylight = darkness, or night = darkness + daylight.
night = daylight + darkness
night - daylight = (daylight + darkness) - daylight
night - daylight = darknessI cant uderstand this argument of yours, Going by this logic , even the day time can be called night , because basically it is darkness/night everywhere and day light is added to it, if you add something to existing, that original something does not vanish, it remains.
POINT # 2
Verse 1778 mentions "until darkness of the night". If night = darkness, then "darkness of the night" will mean "darkness of darkness" which is ridiculous. If night = darkness, then God could have said "until night". Therefore night = darkness + something else.
There are many verses from which different minds would draw different inferences and hence could be interpreted in favour of the either. You know i would take this darkness of the night argument as, Darkness is definition of the night.
As Ayman pointed out, if night (layl) is separate from daytime (nahaar), then how can you merge one into the other? You can merge two things only if they overlap. Your understanding contradicts all the following
327 You merge the night into the daytime, and merge the daytime into the night; and you bring the living out of the dead, and bring the dead out of the living; and You provide for whom You please with no reckoning.
2261 That is because God merges the night in the daytime, and He merges the daytime in the night. And God is Hearer, Seer.
3129 Have you not seen that God merges the night into the daytime and merges the daytime into the night, and that He has committed the sun and the moon, each running to a predetermined term; and that God is expert of everything you do?
3513 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. And He has committed the sun and the moon, each runs for a predetermined period. Such is God your Lord; to Him is the sovereignty. And as for those whom you call on besides Him, they do not possess a seed's shell.
395 He created the heavens and the Earth with truth. He rolls the night over the daytime, and He rolls the daytime over the night. And He committed the sun and the moon, each running for an appointed term. Absolutely, He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
576 He merges the night into the daytime, and merges the daytime into the night. He is fully aware of what is inside the chests.
These coiling/overlapping/merging periods are defined in Quran with Fajr and isha not as day or night.
sun rise to sun set. day.
sunset to darkness isha
darkness to first light night
first light to sun rise FajrAt the end , i would repeat the argument which tilted my opinion , when i was confused about the issue.
The point at which you advocate to break fast, has a much better definition , and that particular marker is very precise and has been used in Quran many a times, Ghorubul al shams or Dalukul shams, Why didn't he use it here ?
peaceI suggest that we sort the above argument first , if you/anybody has any thing to say.
siki
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Peace Siki,
The point at which you advocate to break fast, has a much better definition , and that particular marker is very precise and has been used in Quran many a times, Ghorubul al shams or Dalukul shams, Why didn't he use it here ?
POINT # 1
God uses different words to refer to the same thing sometimes in al-quran. For example, He calls those who believe "muslimeen" in 2278. Other places He uses the word "momineen". At some places He refers to "al-quran" as "al-furqaan" (2185), or "al-kitaab", or "al-hikmat".
Why did He not use "duluk" always instead of "ghurub", for example in 20130 and 5039?
POINT # 2
"Duluk al-shams" starts as soon as the sun's lower border touches the horizon. The sun is still above horizon. A few minutes pass before the sun's upper border disappears below the horizon and that is when "layl"/night starts.
If God would have used this phrase then people would be breaking fast a few minutes earlier!
"Ghurub al-shams" could have been used but see point # 1 and point # 3
POINT # 3
If He had used precise terminology for breaking fast then we will have to break our fasts at a very precise time and no room for any delay, but by using "night" He gave us some leeway and we don't have to keep our eyes glued to the horizon to see the exact time of sunset which could have caused retinal damage and blindness! Mercy of God?
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
POINT # 4
These coiling/overlapping/merging periods are defined in Quran with Fajr and isha not as day or night.
I agree that they are called "fajr" and "'isha" but they are still considered part of daytime because they are called the two edges of the daytime in 11114. They are also considered part of night because they are called the near parts of the night in 11114. These two times are where the daytime and night overlap.
According to your definitions, "two edges of the daytime (nahaar)" and "near parts of the night (layl)" in 11114 cannot refer to "fajr" or "'isha".
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Darkness is definition of the night.
Peace Siki,
As explained earlier it's impossible to tell exactly when darkeness starts and will vary with each individual.
The start and stop of fasting is precise -- white thread of dawn to sunset.
Also see below and ponder the verse on the shadow...
? Full Harvest Moon - September This is the full Moon that occurs closest to the autumn equinox. In two years out of three, the Harvest Moon comes in September, but in some years it occurs in October. At the peak of harvest, farmers can work late into the night by the light of this Moon.
? Full Hunter's Moon - October With the leaves falling and the deer fattened, it is time to hunt. Since the fields have been reaped, hunters can easily see fox and the animals which have come out to glean.
2545 Did you not see to your Lord how He casts the shadow?
http//tasaweer.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/gold_and_black.jpg
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Salaamun All,
Alhamdulillahi Rabbil Aalameen... Allah made things very clear...
20130 Hence, bear with patience whatever they may say, and extol thy Sustainer's limitless glory and praise Him before the rising of the sun and before its setting; and extol His glory, too, during some of the hours of the night as well as during the hours of the day, so that thou might attain to happiness.
Faisbir AAala ma yaqooloona wasabbih bihamdi rabbika qabla tulooAAi alshshamsi waqabla ghuroobiha wamin anai allayli fasabbih waatrafa alnnahari laAAallaka tarda
(20130)
Qabla Tulu' AlShams = Before the Sunrise
Qabla Ghurubiha = Before the Sunset
Aanaai AlLayli = Times of the Night
Atraaf AlNahaar = Edges of the DayWe can notice that 24 hours has been divided into 4 parts Sunrise, Sunset, Night and Day. That clearly means that Night cannot be at Sunset. Sunrise and Sunset are two more periods other than Day and Night.
One more point to be taken care of is Atraaf AlNahaar - that means The edges of the Day. And every edge got a different name like . Does night also got edges? I found only one i.e., Sahar. Please let me know if you find any more in Day or Night.
May Allah open our hearts to understand His Message clearly and correctly. pr
Regards,
mmKhan -
peace all,
mmkhan,
"atraf" is plural, meaning 3 or more edges of daytime/nahar. In my view 20130 is an idiomatic expression meaning "all the time". To interpret it any other way leads to inconsistancies in timing (I tried many different interpretations and I have never read one that does not cause problems).
truthseeker,
"near/adjacent parts of the night" means 3 or more parts of the night. That is morning twilight, evening twilight and actual night. I discussed this in detail here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
God uses different words to refer to the same thing sometimes in al-quran. For example, He calls those who believe "muslimeen" in 2278. Other places He uses the word "momineen". At some places He refers to "al-quran" as "al-furqaan" (2185), or "al-kitaab", or "al-hikmat".
peace truth seeker
Brother ! you need to benifit from a statement of mine posted in hot ramadhan which i copy down below , in response to your above quoted point.
quote.
Do you think God used this word , "Just casually" I think you guys have stayed in the forum long enough to witness , "That His choice of words is absoutely precise and Delibrate".The wisdom behind each usage, "sometimes we know, and some times we find" ! But is NEVER, NEVER CASUAL, and when we dont find (wisdom) "please keep striving to find" , because his words are balanced to perfection. unquote.
Moreover , kindly use the search function to find out numerous threads/discussions/opinions on the difference between the usage of Muslimeen and Momineen in Quran.
POINT # 2
"Duluk al-shams" starts as soon as the sun's lower border touches the horizon. The sun is still above horizon. A few minutes pass before the sun's upper border disappears below the horizon and that is when "layl"/night starts.
If God would have used this phrase then people would be breaking fast a few minutes earlier!
Brother rest assured , i precisely know the difference between dalukulshams and ghorubulshams.
You are bothered about few minutes, where as despite calling for layal ,people are breaking fast at plenty of minutes earlier
POINT # 3
If He had used precise terminology for breaking fast then we will have to break our fasts at a very precise time and no room for any delay, but by using "night" He gave us some leeway and we don't have to keep our eyes glued to the horizon to see the exact time of sunset which could have caused retinal damage and blindness! Mercy of God?
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
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The above logic is not worthy of your percieved intellect.
He uses a very precise marker for starting fast , when we dont need it , but when we are hungry/thirsty and require a precise marker to start eating, He does not use it? and according to you he gives us a vague time to test our patience and brains?
looks like you guys are finally blinded damaging your retinas by starring at Ghorobul shams for breaking fast, and hence cant see a clear commandment of layal. Where as, he does not want you to do that. That is why he has given you the layal marker.
Moreover do you ever go out and stare at horizon , looking for that first ray of whitness to stop eating in the morning ?POINT # 4
I agree that they are called "fajr" and "'isha" but they are still considered part of daytime because they are called the two edges of the daytime in 11114. They are also considered part of night because they are called the near parts of the night in 11114. These two times are where the daytime and night overlap.
According to your definitions, "two edges of the daytime (nahaar)" and "near parts of the night (layl)" in 11114 cannot refer to "fajr" or "'isha".
I think quranic names for the above mentioned overlapping times are very clear, Fajr, Isha, No matter from which end you hold the ear, layal starts after isha is finished.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
As explained earlier it's impossible to tell exactly when darkeness starts and will vary with each individual.
The start and stop of fasting is precise -- white thread of dawn to sunset.
The start eating marker is as precise/ or to say unprecise as the stop eating marker (explained properly in 2-185 for start of dawn) For 1400 years no one has ever dared to question HIM regarding its unprecision.
Moreover, where do you get this sunset from ?
peace
siki
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Salaaman Wakas,
"atraf" is plural, meaning 3 or more edges of daytime/nahar. In my view 20130 is an idiomatic expression meaning "all the time". To interpret it any other way leads to inconsistancies in timing (I tried many different interpretations and I have never read one that does not cause problems).
Thank you for your clarification brother . Instead of saying all the time, I prefer to say at all the edges of day whatever they might be. I think this is better. Right?
But do you find any more names of edges of Day and Night? Please let me know anyone knows.
Regards,
mmKhan
