Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Nun,
Waalla-ee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum faAAiddatuhunna thalathatu ashhurin waalla-ee lam yahidna waolatu al-ahmali ajaluhunna an yadaAAna hamlahunna waman yattaqi Allaha yajAAal lahu min amrihi yusran
654 And those (F) who became infertile/despaired from the menstruation from your women, if you became doubtful/suspicious, so their term/count (is) three months, and those (F) who did not menstruate, and (those) of the pregnant...Why do you cut the translation of 654 short. Can't you read the rest of the passage?
How many ?and those? (waalla-ee) are in the above verse?
How many different groups of women?There are three kinds of women divided into two groups
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons
- Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.According to you (women who do not menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a full moon she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a full moon she waits 3 months
How can the same woman wait 2 or 3 months?Same as according to you (women who menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 monthsAccording to you how long should women with irregular menses wait...
IF menses is every 3 to 5 weeks?3 menstruations.
92 So travel in the earth four full moons
IF day before a full moon 3 months
IF day after a full moon 4 monthsSame as according to you (women who menstrate) if they had to wait four instead of three menstruations...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 3 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 4 monthsHow absurd contradictive and inconsistent.
By your measure, the god telling the women who menstruate to wait for three menstruations is equally absurd contradictive and inconsistent since it is an indisputable fact that
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 monthsI think that you are the one who is absurd contradictive and inconsistent. You haven't even told us what your "month" is and you instead keep providing a lame excuse that "you are working on it". Well, if you spend more time working on it and less time spewing baseless nonsense and throwing tantrums you would have been done by now.
What else do they say "shahr" means?
Notice that you are not arguing anymore that "shahr" meaning full-moon is baseless.
On the other hand, you have still not proven your baseless claim that "pilgrimage" is mentioned in 52.
Exactly describes the "fantasies" you love to imagine.
There you go presuming again. You are right; futile to discuss any longer.There is no "presuming" on my part. It is an indisputable fact that the word "pilgrimage" is not mentioned in 51-2 and it is only in your fantasy. It is not my problem that you can't read.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Umm Tariq and Truthseeker,
I can't agree with your translation of this verse. First, maybe it's just me but doesn't who have despaired from menstruation say the same as those whose menstruation has ceased? However this part of the verse that you are translating as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' in arabic is 'lam yahidna', those who DIDN'T/ HAVEN'T menstruated. In this case I would take the 'wa' as the additional rule for women who are pregnant, to wait until they give birth, which is reiterated again in verse 6. Did you notice that? Can 'lam yahidna' be translated as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' or does this change how you look at it now? I just had to mention this just to make sure that I am not missing something.
I agree with you. I was just about to answer Truthseeker but you beat me to it. There are three types of women divided into 2 groups in 654
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons
- Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Sorry you have confused me now too. confused Are you saying, as per your group 2, that 'and those who didn't/ haven't menstruated' should wait the gestation period of those who are pregnant? Maybe you made a typo? I would make
group 1 ---> wait 3 full moons 1. those who have despaired of menstruation 2. those who didn't/ haven't menstruated
Group 2 are those who are pregnant, their 'ajl', specified term til completion, is when they deliver, 'an yada'na hamlahunna'. Do we agree on this?
Umm Tariq
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Peace Umm Tariq and Ayman,
I can't agree with your translation of this verse. First, maybe it's just me but doesn't who have despaired from menstruation say the same as those whose menstruation has ceased? However this part of the verse that you are translating as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' in arabic is 'lam yahidna', those who DIDN'T/ HAVEN'T menstruated. In this case I would take the 'wa' as the additional rule for women who are pregnant, to wait until they give birth, which is reiterated again in verse 6. Did you notice that? Can 'lam yahidna' be translated as 'those whose menstruation has ceased' or does this change how you look at it now? I just had to mention this just to make sure that I am not missing something.
Thank you for the correction.
FIRST POSSIBILITY
654 As for the women who have despaired from menstruation (meaning those whose menstruation has ceased), if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three full-moons, and for those who did not menstruate. And those who are pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.
The full stop is after "lam yahidna".
Group 1 women with primary amenorrhea (those who never menstruated), and those with secondary amenorrhea (those whose menstruation has stopped for reasons other than pregnancy but they are not sure about it).
Group 2 pregnant women (who are 100 % sure of pregnancy).
SECOND POSSIBILITY
What if "lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" can mean "those who haven't menstruated because of pregnancy". In that case it would read "those who haven't menstruated THAT IS those who are pregnant". The "wa" here between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali" would not indicate two categories but would separate two attributes of the same category. The full stop in this case would be before "lam yahidna". What do you think ?
The translation in that case would be
654 As for the women who have despaired from menstruation (meaning those whose menstruation has ceased), if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three full-moons. And for those who have not menstruated, that is those who are pregnant, their interim is until they give birth. And anyone who reverences God, He makes his matters easy for him.
If this is true then
Group 1 describes women whose menstruation has stopped for reasons other than pregnancy but they are not sure about it.
Group 2 describes women whose menstruation has stopped because of pregnancy (who are 100 % sure of pregnancy).
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Ayman,
There are three types of women divided into 2 groups in 654
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons
- Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.How can those who didn't menstruate wait gestation period? They are not pregnant!
That is what was confusing me initially and there were two possibilities. The one that I mentioned initially or the one Umm Tariq mentioned. I tend to agree with Umm Tariq's understanding because of "lam yahidna" meaning "those who didn't menstruate, unless "lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali" can mean "those who haven't menstruated because of pregnancy". In that case it would read "those who haven't menstruated THAT IS those who are pregnant". What do you think?
Which translation is correct grammatically?
Samia's input is invited also.
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Peace all
Here are anoter signs from God regarding calculating the Month; as you know the Bible, the Old Testement and Quran are the Books of our Creator. Please read the following to understand that the month is calculated from Waxing Crescent to the next Waxing Crescent in the three books; also you will note why Ayman is trying to discount the 13 moon from the year, as the Jews and Christian did.http//www.crivoice.org/calendar.html
http//www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom7.htmHappy Rammadn and peace to you all
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Peace Belal,
Peace all
Here are anoter signs from God regarding calculating the Month; as you know the Bible, the Old Testement and Quran are the Books of our Creator. Please read the following to understand that the month is calculated from Waxing Crescent to the next Waxing Crescent in the three books; also you will note why Ayman is trying to discount the 13 moon from the year, as the Jews and Christian did.http//www.crivoice.org/calendar.html
http//www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/custom7.htmHappy Rammadn and peace to you all
Two questions
- Where in the Quran does it say "waxing crescent"? All it says is "crescents" in 2189
- Which of the 24-26 crescents will you use as a marker to start fasting per The Quran?
If you cannot bring evidence from The Quran for answers to the above then please don't bother to reply. The Quran authenticates the previous scriptures, not the other way around.
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Peace everyone,
Excerpt from one of the links Belal provided
"The Rabbis would structure elaboate rules as to what constituted an appearance of the new moon, how many witnesses to the event were necessary, what qualifications those witnesses must possess, etc."
This shows how hard it is to accurately witness a new moon. The current sectarians who follow the Jews instead of The Quran have the same problem of determining the new moon every year and it is an empiric fact that there is always a dispute among them about the appearance of the new moon.
Now let's see what The Quran says
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
Only self witnessing is enough per The Quran and the full-moon is much easier to witness than the elusive new moon. No elaborate rules needed, no multiple witnesses needed, and no qualifications needed!
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Peace everyone,
Excerpt from one of the links Belal provided
"The Rabbis would structure elaboate rules as to what constituted an appearance of the new moon, how many witnesses to the event were necessary, what qualifications those witnesses must possess, etc."
This shows how hard it is to accurately witness a new moon. The current sectarians who follow the Jews instead of The Quran have the same problem of determining the new moon every year and it is an empiric fact that there is always a dispute among them about the appearance of the new moon.
Now let's see what The Quran says
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
Only self witnessing is enough per The Quran and the full-moon is much easier to witness than the elusive new moon. No elaborate rules needed, no multiple witnesses needed, and no qualifications needed!
So, you don't deny that calculating the Month starts from the New Moon (Waxing crescent) in all the Books.
So, why do you want to reject God's commendment? Is not enough for you to know that is what God's wants? Why cann't you say "We Hear and we Obay"?Peace
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Peace everyone,
So, you don't deny that calculating the Month starts from the New Moon (Waxing crescent) in all the Books.
So, why do you want to reject God's commendment? Is not enough for you to know that is what God's wants? Why cann't you say "We Hear and we Obay"?The above is a perfect example of fallacy of false premise. giveup
Everyone is invited to study the various logical fallacies
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CategoryLogical_fallacies
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Peace Tlepsh,
What does Lane say about "3iddat AL-rijjal", if anything?
Can you tell Samia, Truthseeker and me what you think the difference is between "3iddat AL-shuhoor" and "3iddat shuhoor"?
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman,
Thank you for your comment. You are right.
Yes it says the COUNT. -
Peace truthseeker,
It would be nice if someone can explain this from the grammatical angle, whether this 'wa' can be used as an additional description or not but I also know that even in the study of arabic grammar, there is taint (rules that don't agree with the great reading). I agree with this conclusion of yours and it makes the most sense
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Taking this verse and 2228 which are about 'divorce', 2228 covers the case for all who have a menstrual cycle, they use it to count by. I see 654 as covering those who don't have a menstrual cycle, due to pregnancy (which is understood) or otherwise, so we have the full moon event to count by or the delivery event to use as an ending. Nice and simple to me.   Let me know what you think.
Umm Tariq
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Peace Ayman,
There are three kinds of women divided into two groups
GROUP 1 ----> Wait 3 full moons
- Those who have despaired of menstruation (100% sure are menopause).
GROUP 2 ----> Wait gestation period
2. Those who didn't menstruate (for any reason but didn't despair of menstruation)
3. and those who are pregnant.Same as according to you (women who menstrate)...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 months3 menstruations.
Same as according to you (women who menstrate) if they had to wait four instead of three menstruations...
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 3 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 4 monthsBy your measure, the god telling the women who menstruate to wait for three menstruations is equally absurd contradictive and inconsistent since it is an indisputable fact that
IF divorced day before a menstruation she waits 2 months
IF divorced day after a menstruation she waits 3 monthsNotice that you are not arguing anymore that "shahr" meaning full-moon is baseless.
It is not my problem that you can't read.
Ayman?s full moon calendar
- APR 20, 2008
April 21 ? divorce Mrs. A (100% in menopause).
May 19, 2008 ? divorce Mrs. B (100% in menopause).
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 936)
Summer Solstice 2008- JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 200
- AUG 16, 2008
- SEPT 15, 2008
How many days must each woman wait?
Ayman's answer -- the same as menstruating women!
Which menstruating women?
http//www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/Handouts/irregular_menses/irregular_menses.html
The average length of the menstrual cycle is 28 days, however in reality the normal menstrual cycle may vary in length from 26-35 days.
1 lunar month is exactly = 29.53059 days
Menstruating women are inconsistent and have little to do with full moons!92 So travel in the earth four full moons
Ayman?s full moon calendar
11. APR 20, 2008
April 21 ? incident Mr. AMay 19, 2008 ? incident Mr. B
12. MAY 20, 2008
13. JUNE 18, 2008 (Skip as per 936)
Summer Solstice 2008- JULY 17, 2008 (scorching full moon 200
- AUG 16, 2008
- SEPT 15, 2008
How many days does each man travel?
492?And whoso finds this beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive full moons?
How many days does each man fast?
Ayman's answer to all the above -- the same as menstruating women! laugh
Goodbye and peace be upon you!
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Peace Ayman
So is this how the additional month is used, by not droping the . 37 ( the . 37 is almost 50% ( nearly half a month), thus every other year it would add up to close to a month ( the additional month/ or 13 months in one year )... If I am understandin this correctly. I dont know. And how do we only count 12 months and drop the .37
And I would like some straight answers from you... And not no too long explanations...If you can, tell me what is is that you are trying to say in a couple sentances....I know we learn by reading, but I dont like reading long posts and dont be havin the paitience especially with no proofs. And bring your proofs. Gather all your evedences together. Do this for me.( quranic evedence or the previous Scripyure, or some real facts, about your claims. And we take it from there.
peace
Salaam Anthonywallace,
You are expecting a short and precise and direct answer from someone who, along with his team is manipulating the verses of the Qur?an by ?Skiping as per 936? confused
This in an organised attempt to establish a false system where there is no obligation on anyone towards Allah. I have never heard as much nonsense as this where if it?s cloudy no one has to fast, as you missed witnessing the moon. bravo
In fact the month should not be taken into consideration as no one witnessed the full moon yay so no month if its cloudy, laugh Yet this team pretend to ask each other questions and level out all creases by saying ?that makes sense? hmm. Just go through this thread from the beginning and you will notice how it all started with Ayman proposing a system and few eloquent cronies quizzing him, soon to agree with him.
Now you see a similar team, with new identities, come to establish his deen. They have deliberately ignored solid proof from the Qur?an against their system and their last wordl is "What does Lane say about."7176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may REFLECT.
peace -
Peace everyone
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts wow giveup
Ad hominem attacking the personal instead of the argument.
Appeal to emotion where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Wishful thinking a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to tradition where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people" where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Judgmental language It employs insultive, compromettant or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgement.
Straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning.
Bare assertion fallacy premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis)
Package-deal fallacy when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Existential fallacy an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Appeal to ridicule a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Begging the question ("petitio principii" where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Moving the goalpost in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Cherry picking the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
Spotlight fallacy when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.
Thought-terminating clich? a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
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Peace Umm Tariq,
Peace truthseeker,
It would be nice if someone can explain this from the grammatical angle, whether this 'wa' can be used as an additional description or not but I also know that even in the study of arabic grammar, there is taint (rules that don't agree with the great reading). I agree with this conclusion of yours and it makes the most sense
But this would not include women who never had menstruation (primary amenorrhea). Because of that I would tend to favor your understanding if that is grammatically possible.
Taking this verse and 2228 which are about 'divorce', 2228 covers the case for all who have a menstrual cycle, they use it to count by. I see 654 as covering those who don't have a menstrual cycle, due to pregnancy (which is understood) or otherwise, so we have the full moon event to count by or the delivery event to use as an ending. Nice and simple to me.   Let me know what you think.
Umm Tariq
Makes sense.
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Peace everyone
Following is an incomplete list of fallacies that I discovered in the above 2 posts wow giveup
Ad hominem attacking the personal instead of the argument.
Appeal to emotion where an argument is made due to the manipulation of emotions, rather than the use of valid reasoning
Wishful thinking a specific type of appeal to emotion where a decision is made according to what might be pleasing to imagine, rather than according to evidence or reason
Appeal to spite a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made through exploiting people's bitterness or spite towards an opposing party
Appeal to motive where a premise is dismissed, by calling into question the motives of its proposer
Appeal to tradition where a thesis is deemed correct on the basis that it has a long-standing tradition behind it
Argumentum ad populum ("appeal to belief", "appeal to the majority", "appeal to the people" where a proposition is claimed to be true solely because many people believe it to be true
Judgmental language It employs insultive, compromettant or pejorative language to influence the recipient's judgement.
Straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.
Texas sharpshooter fallacy in which information that has no relationship is interpreted or manipulated until it appears to have meaning.
Bare assertion fallacy premise in an argument is assumed to be true purely because it says that it is true.
Ignoratio elenchi (irrelevant conclusion or irrelevant thesis)
Package-deal fallacy when two or more things have been linked together by tradition or culture are said to stay that way forever
Existential fallacy an argument has two universal premises and a particular conclusion, but the premises do not establish the truth of the conclusion
Argument from repetition (argumentum ad nauseam)
Appeal to ridicule a specific type of appeal to emotion where an argument is made by presenting the opponent's argument in a way that makes it appear ridiculous
Begging the question ("petitio principii" where the conclusion of an argument is implicitly or explicitly assumed in one of the premises
False attribution when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument.
Moving the goalpost in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded.
Cherry picking the act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position.
Hasty generalization (fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, secundum quid)
Spotlight fallacy when a person uncritically assumes that all members or cases of a certain class or type are like those that receive the most attention or coverage in the media.
Thought-terminating clich? a commonly used phrase, sometimes passing as folk wisdom, used to quell cognitive dissonance.http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Agreed handshake
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Strive hard against those who mock & attack your deen.
peaceAre you sure they are mocking and attacking your deen nope i don?t think so i think they are trying to reach the truth and if someone is not distorting words are meaning of Quran purposely then they be considered innocent and should not be blamed.
& are you saying that you know what is in their hearts.
Only Allah knows what is in our hearts.God Bless you
handshake