Hot/"ramadan" Answer

farida

Salaam Ayman

You're right in the underlined part, my mistake. But still I have another understanding. Maybe it is those women who make believe they are still menustrating, but because, say, of their age, you are in doubt; or they bleed for another reason. Since we have two ways in the verse to count the 3idda, we have to exclude these women from the possibility of being pregnant.

Why would she wait until delivery? How long before she finds she was not pregnant?

As I understand, there are two groups Those who can't be pregnant (menopausal and those who believe they are not but we doubt that) and those who are pregnant (those who have their menustrations stop during pregnancy and those who continue their menustartion during pregnancy).

fftopic
hmm

Salaam farida

I am not the one wondering what colour the moon is or what size it should be or when in order to fast. I just took the other option and decided to feed the poor. Look into the mirror.

peace

ayman

Peace Truthseeker, Samia,

I think the two groups are

Waallaee ya-isna mina almaheedi min nisa-ikum ini irtabtum (those women who have despaired/given up from the menstruation, if you are doubtful). This would include all the women who have stopped menstruating because of menopause or other reasons excluding pregnancy but "you" are doubtful as to whether "they" have actually stopped menstruating due to those reasons.
Waallaee lam yahidna wa olatual ahmali (those who haven't menstruated and are pregnant). This would include all those women who were menstruating regularly but haven't menstruated since divorce due to pregnancy.
Please not that "waallaee" separates the two groups and there is no "waallaee" between "lam yahidna" and "olatual ahmali".

I agree with group 1.

On group 2, the terms "allaee" and "olatu" serve approximately the same function, the first is "those who" stopped menstruating since the divorce and the second is "those with" a load (carrying a baby). You can reverse the order and say "olatu alahmali wa allaee lam yahidna" and the meaning is the same. So those are two separate categories within group 2. Now for the category of those who are pregnant there is no issue since at the time of the divorce it is known that they are pregnant. So if they are divorced 5 minutes before they give birth, their waiting time is 5 minutes.

There is also very low risk with group 1 since they had already despaired from menstruation prior to the divorce so their waiting period is ZERO or 3 full-moons if you (not they) are in doubt. The highest risk is the other category of group 2. They are the ones who stopped menstruating since the divorce. For those, there are two possibilities

They are pregnant.
They are not pregnant.

If they are pregnant then they automatically fall into the category of "pregnant" above.

If they are not pregnant then two things will happen

They may suddenly start menstruating again at anytime. In this case, since they haven't despaired of menstruation, they would fall back into the category of menstruating women who wait for 3 menstruations.
They may not menstruate for the 9-10 months maximum gestation period. In this case, after a while they will know for sure that they are not pregnant and hence move into the category of "despaired from menstruation".

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Peace All

Here is another Sign from your Lord

(&#1634

Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for an appointed period. He doth regulate all affairs explaining the Signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord. (13-2)

The Sun and The Moon Run for an Appointed and Known Period.

The Known period of the Sun is from Sun Rise to the next Sun Rise?One day. For thousands of year since God Created the Sun, the Sun appears the same way every day. If the Sun has another Appointed Period beside Day and Night calculation, God would have appointed it in Quran or Bible or Torah (by saying that the Month has 30 days or year has 365 days)

The Known and appointed Period of the Moon is the Moon Stages (10-5, 36-39). Thus, from the beginning of the Moon Cycle to the End is the Appointed Period. Such Period is known in the Quran, the Bible, and Torah. And we calculate from the Waxing Crescent (the New Moon) to the Next Waxing Crescent (The Mark of the new next period).

Unless Ayman and his Sect provide a period that is Appointed by God in His Books, They are Misleading you.

DO NOT FOLLOW ANY ONE EXECPT ALLAH?S WORDS

Salam and may God Lead you to the Truth

afridi220

By the way Truthseeker1, I'm still waiting for you to post the weather trend in "Madena" as you did for Mecca. ;D

Salaaaaam

salam bilal

Why are you so lost; it was not Mecca, but Madena; The Madena Weather is simmilar to Jordan.
Now go and find the same information for Madena and post it if you are looking after showing the truth

It was me I posted that calendar and choose not to respond the reason....

Quran was revealed in Mecca and not in Madina. hail

peace

ayman

Peace Afridi,

Quran was revealed in Mecca and not in Madina. hail

No it wasn't

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm

Peace,

Ayman

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

I was thinking hard about the "shahr" issue and asking God for guidance when suddenly He drew my attention to two key signs that establish once in for all that "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran. I don't think anyone has considered this aspect before so I want to share this with all of you.

I am really excited about this ! yay

1712 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

This sign makes it crystal clear that a year is solar according to al-quran.

Now let's see the following sign

936 The count of the "shahr" with God is twelve "shahr" in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

This sign makes it clear that the count of "shahr" is twelve.

Now, if "shahr" means month, and as per al-quran phases of moon can be used as timing mechanism (105, 2189), then let's see how many lunar months can be counted in a solar year (assuming a lunar month is from waxing crescent to waxing crescent, or full-moon to full-moon, both will theoretically make no difference as to the count of lunar months). A solar year can be from summer solstice to summer solstice or winter solstice to winter solstice or the current solar calendar can be used. Again this will make no difference as far as the count of "shahr" is concerned.

2006 lunar months

Jan 29 - Feb 27
Feb 28 - Mar 28
Mar 29 - April 26
April 27 - May 26
May 27 - Jun 24
Jun 25 - Jul 24
Jul 25 - Aug 22
Aug 23 - Sep 21
Sep 22 - Oct 21
Oct 22 - Nov 19
Nov 20 - Dec 19

As we can clearly see, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2006 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.

2007 lunar months

Jan 19 - Feb 16
Feb 17 - Mar 18
Mar 19 - Apr 17
Apr 17 - May 15
May 16 - Jun 14
Jun 15 - Jul 13
Jul 14 - Aug 11
Aug 12 - Sep 10
Sep 11 - Oct 10
Oct 11 - Nov 8
Nov 9 - Dec 8

As we can clearly see again, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2007 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.

In fact, the count of lunar months in a solar year will be 11 for 2 years in a row and then 12 in the third year. But according to al-quran the count of "shahr" is always 12.

Therefore "shahr" CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTH in al-quran.

On the other hand, if we count the full-moons in a solar year, WE WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO COUNT 12 FULL-MOONS EVERY YEAR and every 3rd year the 13th full-moon will not be counted.

This proves beyond any shadow of doubt that "shahr" CAN ONLY MEAN FULL-MOON in al-quran.

Indeed, God has detailed everything completely relevant to our guidance as per 1712. The answer was always staring in the face; it is us who don't understand sometimes! May God guide us all to the truth.

afridi220

Peace everyone,

I was thinking hard about the "shahr" issue and asking God for guidance when suddenly He drew my attention to two key signs that establish once in for all that "shahr" can only mean "full-moon" in al-quran. I don't think anyone has considered this aspect before so I want to share this with all of you.

I am really excited about this ! yay

1712 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

This sign makes it crystal clear that a year is solar according to al-quran.

Now let's see the following sign

936 The count of the "shahr" with God is twelve "shahr" in God?s record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous.

This sign makes it clear that the count of "shahr" is twelve.

Now, if "shahr" means month, and as per al-quran phases of moon can be used as timing mechanism (105, 2189), then let's see how many lunar months can be counted in a solar year (assuming a lunar month is from waxing crescent to waxing crescent, or full-moon to full-moon, both will theoretically make no difference as to the count of lunar months). A solar year can be from summer solstice to summer solstice or winter solstice to winter solstice or the current solar calendar can be used. Again this will make no difference as far as the count of "shahr" is concerned.

2006 lunar months

Jan 29 - Feb 27
Feb 28 - Mar 28
Mar 29 - April 26
April 27 - May 26
May 27 - Jun 24
Jun 25 - Jul 24
Jul 25 - Aug 22
Aug 23 - Sep 21
Sep 22 - Oct 21
Oct 22 - Nov 19
Nov 20 - Dec 19

As we can clearly see, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2006 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.

2007 lunar months

Jan 19 - Feb 16
Feb 17 - Mar 18
Mar 19 - Apr 17
Apr 17 - May 15
May 16 - Jun 14
Jun 15 - Jul 13
Jul 14 - Aug 11
Aug 12 - Sep 10
Sep 11 - Oct 10
Oct 11 - Nov 8
Nov 9 - Dec 8

As we can clearly see again, the COUNT of the lunar months in 2007 was 11, NOT 12 as per al-quran.

In fact, the count of lunar months in a solar year will be 11 for 2 years in a row and then 12 in the third year. But according to al-quran the count of "shahr" is always 12.

Therefore "shahr" CANNOT MEAN LUNAR MONTH in al-quran.

On the other hand, if we count the full-moons in a solar year, WE WILL ALWAYS BE ABLE TO COUNT 12 FULL-MOONS EVERY YEAR and every 3rd year the 13th full-moon will not be counted.

This proves beyond any shadow of doubt that "shahr" CAN ONLY MEAN FULL-MOON in al-quran.

Indeed, God has detailed everything completely relevant to our guidance as per 1712. The answer was always staring in the face; it is us who don't understand sometimes! May God guide us all to the truth.

Lets wait and see what Bilal and his folower Farida says about that, till that keep smilling )

afridi220

Peace Afridi,

No it wasn't

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm

Peace,

Ayman

Salam ayman
The so called archaeological evidences about Islam and Quran are all written by Christians and not trust worthy.
For example see this link

http//isaalmasih.net/archaeology-isa/quran-archaeology.html &

peace

siki

The Sun and The Moon Run for an Appointed and Known Period.

The Known period of the Sun is from Sun Rise to the next Sun RiseOne day. For thousands of year since God Created the Sun, the Sun appears the same way every day. If the Sun has another Appointed Period beside Day and Night calculation, God would have appointed it in Quran or Bible or Torah (by saying that the Month has 30 days or year has 365 days)

The Known and appointed Period of the Moon is the Moon Stages (10-5, 36-39). Thus, from the beginning of the Moon Cycle to the End is the Appointed Period. Such Period is known in the Quran, the Bible, and Torah. And we calculate from the Waxing Crescent (the New Moon) to the Next Waxing Crescent (The Mark of the new next period).

Salam and may God Lead you to the Truth

Brother Belal, Salam. handshake

! lets assume for a while that >D "Aliens abduct you, and take you to planet X ;D . There you lose all track of earth time. One day they decide to dump you back. You splash down, manage to swim out to a small deserted island with no one around.

You wanted to keep track of time , and most probably this is how you ended up doing.

You remembered God's words in his book for keeping time, and hence started to count days with the help of sun rise and set. You counted 30 days but then your month started from the day you arrived back on the planet. The only way to synchronise it with the rest of the mankind was, to take refernce of the moon. So you reset your count and started counting months with the help of moon. To begin with, for a strange reason you chose the waxing cresent which followed the sun and was barely visible in the refracting light of the setting sun (By the way the wanning cresent is much more distinct, because it is at dawn, and is opposite to the rising sun) You counted "12" as per God's commandment, for a year and then restarted , but then your year was not synchronised with the rest of the world. This method started your year when you arrived back on the planet.

Over a period of a few years you noticed, that in your count of 12, once there was a full Moon, which was so distinct in colour that you couldn't miss it, and hence you reset your year count with the help of this Orange full moon.

As you started to count the year from this bright marker , your month count automatically began to start with Full Moon, and so was every month from then on. Over a period of time it dawned on you that it was easy to keep track of this bright full moon, and what a fool you were when you kept the count with waxing cresent.

(because in certain months you missed it and ended up having a count of 29 or sometimes 30-31 days, and every other month you had overcast and hence had no idea weather to start recounting or not whereas the bright full moon could still be noticed even in cloudy days when it started to rise soon afer sun set)

I sincerly hope that you realize the difference.

peace

siki

Umm_Tariq

Peace everyone,

I am also convinced, based on the god's verses, that prophet Muhammad was not from some place called Mecca, nor was the first bayt built there since the god says

396 Verily the first bayt put/placed for the people is verily the one at Bakka, blessed and a guidance for all the worlds.

I remember early on being sunni and I was amazed at this verse and asked about it and the only answer I got was, 'oh, that was the old name for Makkah.' No evidence for such a claim was ever presented. I remember reading the name Bakka in the Bible as well and I was amazed that it mentioned the same place but back then, didn't think too much more of it.

However, I mainly wanted to share another point about this, some food for thought for all if anyone has noticed this or not, these two verses

1173 They said are you amazed from the command of the god? The mercy of the god and His blessings upon you all family/ people/ citizens (etc.) of the bayt (ahlul bayt)...

3333 ...the god only wants to remove from you all the rijs family/ people/ citizens of the bayt (ahlul bayt) and purifying you all completely.

When I realized the arabic for the first time I was shocked, this same phrase addressing Ibrahim and his family and addressing prophet Muhammad and those with him. The beginning of verse 3333 starts out addressing just the wives of the prophet Muhammad and this was the first time I noticed the change in the pronouns used at the end of the verse, going from 'kunna' referring to you (plural) female to 'kum' you all including male and female. I then noticed how my copy of translation of the meaning of the reading from Saheeh International, sunni, translates these two verses

1173 "They said, "Are you amazed at the decree of Allah? May the mercy of Allah and His blessings be upon you, people of the house..."

3333 "And abide in your houses and do not display yourselves as the display of the former times of ignorance. And establish prayer and give zakah and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah intends only to remove from you the impurity , O people of the household, and to purify you with purification."

What happened???! This simple phrase 'ahlul bayt' is the same in both verses yet here, all of these additions, one must ask why? They don't even let you know that the 'O' is an addition nor can you tell the gender of all of the 'yous' used in English. In this verse they use 'household' (more personal). I automatically asked, what are you trying to hide by this? I realized, with these two verses, with this phrase, is this showing that Ibrahim, as well as Muhammad were in the same vicinity, near the same house, not in Mecca?

Again, food for thought, let me know how others have seen this verse translated. For me, additions like these, let's me know automatically that something is amiss and it's not the god's perfect verses.

Umm Tariq

ayman

Peace Afridi,

The so called archaeological evidences about Islam and Quran are all written by Christians and not trust worthy.

I don't think that non trust worthy Christian archeologists built the present pagan theme park in Mecca and told sectarians to idolize a stone cube, the Black Stone, "holy" Zamzam water, etc... .

Peace,

Ayman

belH

1712 And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

This sign makes it crystal clear that a year is solar according to al-quran.

I would like to draw your and Ayman's attention to a very important Rule when trying to understand Quran verses; This Rule is verse 3-7 Rule.
In such a rule, we have to know the Well-established verses and the non-well-established verses. Otherwise you will end up canceling out many verses in Quran because of following a non-well-established verse.
If you succeed in knowing the well-established verses, you will not need to cancel any verse.

Example, is Our case of Lunar year Vs Solar

Verse 17-12 says
And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

Verse 13-2
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for an appointed period. He doth regulate all affairs explaining the Signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

Verse 39-5
He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running for an appointed period. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.

Verse 6-96
He Cleaver of the daybreak. He has appointed the night for resting, and the sun and the moon for Counting. Such is the measuring of the All?Mighty, the All?Knowing.

Verse 10-5
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. All?h did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge.

Verse 55-5
The sun and the moon for calculation

Verse 2-189
They ask you about the crescents. Say These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage. It is not Al-Birr that you enter the houses from the back but Al-Birr who fears All?h. So enter houses through their proper doors, and fear All?h that you may be successful.

Now find the Well established Verses, from above, that if you follow you do not need to Cancel out any of the other verses.

As you Know you are following the first verse 17-12 and canceling out all the other verses; thus you are breaking the Rule of 3-7

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Do you want to be from wicked with a sick Heart?

belH

Peace everyone,

I am also convinced, based on the god's verses, that prophet Muhammad was not from some place called Mecca, nor was the first bayt built there since the god says

396 Verily the first bayt put/placed for the people is verily the one at Bakka, blessed and a guidance for all the worlds.

Peace;
Now, try to find the weather Trend for The area you are talking about (Jordan and Baka).
And when you do, you will find that 9-81 is the Ultimate proof that Fighting was in Summer time after the 4 Restricted Months; thus Rammadan can not fall in summer time as Ayman says.
Peace

anthonywallace

Im just go be paitent. I have to analize this who forum. May God grant me the paitience. But for all I know is that i havent seen Aymen ordering righteousness nor forbiding to much evil. I fear more the warnings of belehamad than what ayman is presenting. Who is Ayman? And im not go keep sittin back while I see one striving in the cause of God and reciting His verses to them and ordering ritiousness and giving warning of the Fire, so im with belahamd. Here we have someone warning the people of Hell Fire and also bringing proofs and not speaking too much of his own accord.

The time for fasting has been made known, there should be no confusion about it. So stand to God traditionally or your own uncomman way, and then reflect. There is no madness in your friend he is only a warner to you in the face of a sever torture.

Or should we continue to reject traditinal fast and the warnings and wait for ayman?

ayman

Peace Anthony,

Or should we continue to reject traditinal fast and the warnings and wait for ayman?

What are you waiting for me on?

You can fast during the traditional arbitrary time if you want. Millions of sectarians do it anyway. They also take the four restricted full-moons as arbitrary "months" that are not consecutive despite knowing very well that passages such as 95 make it clear that they are consecutive. But of course they can't read 95 and the only thing they can do is use it in mindless argumentation as we see here. They also count 12.37 of their "months" in a year instead of 12 "shahr". They are unable to read "sun and moon" and only read "moon" and want to abrogate 1712. They mindlessly quote 2189 but they hypocritically start their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent and end it on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So for them the crescents don't time anything about their pilgrimage and they are just lying. What they are really doing is blindly following in their forefathers misguided ways which are entirely based on Hadiths.

Again, you can time the fast based on Hadiths and lies and as I said millions of people do anyway. I give you credit though because unlike people here who hypocritically claim to follow the great reading/"quran" when they clearly aren't, you are at least honest enough to admit that for now you are merely following the traditional way.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Peace Anthony,

They also count 12.37 of their "months" in a year instead of 12 "shahr".

No I do not; one year is 12 Moon Cycles.

They are unable to read "sun and moon" and only read "moon" and want to abrogate 1712.

I do not cancel out any of thoes verses
Verse 17-12 says
And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely.

Verse 13-2
Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; then He established Himself on the Throne; He has subjected the sun and the moon! Each one runs for an appointed period. He doth regulate all affairs explaining the Signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.

Verse 39-5
He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running for an appointed period. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving.

Verse 6-96
He Cleaver of the daybreak. He has appointed the night for resting, and the sun and the moon for Counting. Such is the measuring of the All?Mighty, the All?Knowing.

Verse 10-5
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. All?h did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ay?t (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge.

Verse 55-5
The sun and the moon for calculation

Verse 2-189
They ask you about the crescents. Say These are signs to mark fixed periods of time for mankind and for the pilgrimage. It is not Al-Birr that you enter the houses from the back but Al-Birr who fears All?h. So enter houses through their proper doors, and fear All?h that you may be successful.

But you do abrogate all of them except 17-12.

You know why, because you have a sick heart as God told us in 3-7

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book in it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are not of well-established meaning. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its interpretation, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah, and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole of it is from our Lord"; and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding (3-7)

They mindlessly quote 2189 but they hypocritically start their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent and end it on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So for them the crescents don't time anything about their pilgrimage and they are just lying. What they are really doing is blindly following in their forefathers misguided ways which are entirely based on Hadiths.

Please read 2-197, and you will know when is Hajj for the Believers and not the Sectrians.

Ayman, we are not Sactrian (Suni or Shia or Ayman's Scet or any other) but we are the Sect of Allah. We strive to follow His words that are written in his Book; we reject all other Books, including your dictionary, when we are looking for the Truth. We know that the Truth is only in His Books.
And May God Lead us to his Truth, and make it our only Light in the darkeness of Lies.

If you want to End this in the Truth, Let us Use God's Book (Quran, Bible, and Torah) as a Judge between us and not any other book. And in this case our dispute is a) Lunar Year Vs Solar, b) is Rammadan happens only in Summer or not? c) is Fasting for all Moslems all over the world a Common Month or different Months? d) Is the Night of Kader one Night or many nights? e) do Blinds people have to Fast or not? f) Does Shaer Means Month or Full Moon. g) is Fasting for the Complete Moon Cycel or 10 days? h) are Moslems forbiden from Starting a war in the 4 Ristricted Month or not? i) is Land Hunting Forbiden during Hajj time or during the entire 4 ristricted Months?

Your Key to end this is the BOOK of God, because we are the Sect of God.

anthonywallace

Peace Anthony,

What are you waiting for me on?

You can fast during the traditional arbitrary time if you want. Millions of sectarians do it anyway. They also take the four restricted full-moons as arbitrary "months" that are not consecutive despite knowing very well that passages such as 95 make it clear that they are consecutive. But of course they can't read 95 and the only thing they can do is use it in mindless argumentation as we see here. They also count 12.37 of their "months" in a year instead of 12 "shahr". They are unable to read "sun and moon" and only read "moon" and want to abrogate 1712. They mindlessly quote 2189 but they hypocritically start their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhul-Hijjah and not with the waxing crescent and end it on the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah, not with the waxing or the waning crescents. So for them the crescents don't time anything about their pilgrimage and they are just lying. What they are really doing is blindly following in their forefathers misguided ways which are entirely based on Hadiths.

Again, you can time the fast based on Hadiths and lies and as I said millions of people do anyway. I give you credit though because unlike people here who hypocritically claim to follow the great reading/"quran" when they clearly aren't, you are at least honest enough to admit that for now you are merely following the traditional way.

Peace,

Ayman

All Im sayin is that I believe that everyone deserves a hearing. And no idea is too small or too crazy for consideration. So Im trying to be paitient. And investigate carfully. I dont want to harm nobody wrongfully is what I thought. But then on the other hand I see one striving against you merly warning you with the quran,and they call you a misleader, sect, ect... And then I thought of the dog, how you are being scolded with the Fire, and if you scold him or not he still pants....

The way I see it is everyone fast at the same time ( the hyporcrits, the believers, the sects, ect...) the times for fast is made known. Do you know that you are causing a division?

I would like you to answer belahamad qusestions. And he said he dont count 12.37 of their months in a year instead of 12 " shahr"

And he dont cancel out any of them verses, ect...

And the hyporcrites are neither for or from you, they are swaying inbetween neither belonging to either side... is what i thought...too.............................................. peace

ayman

Peace Anthony,

All Im sayin is that I believe that everyone deserves a hearing. And no idea is too small or too crazy for consideration. So Im trying to be paitient. And investigate carfully. I dont want to harm nobody wrongfully is what I thought. But then on the other hand I see one striving against you merly warning you with the quran,and they call you a misleader, sect, ect... And then I thought of the dog, how you are being scolded with the Fire, and if you scold him or not he still pants....

You should have read 7175-176 before bungling up the example. The example in 7175-176 is about those who are given the god's signs but they instead continue to follow whatever it is they were following before they were given the god's signs. So the god's signs don't matter to them and whatever they do doesn't change as a result of the god's signs. Now who here on this thread hasn't changed their inherited timing of the fast based on the god's signs? Who has been using the great reading not to find out the timing but to work backwards to justify a preconceived timing? Answer this and you will see who is exactly like the dog example described in 7175-176, you give them the god's signs or not, they keep doing the same thing. This is why it is better to ignore them as I have been doing.

Anyone can mindlessly copy and paste passages from the great reading. So notice that they throw at you 2189 and 2197 but they don't tell you how their pilgrimage on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja is based on those passages. This is because of the fact is that their timing for the pilgrimage and for fast is entirely based on Hadiths and not on anything in the great reading.

The way I see it is everyone fast at the same time ( the hyporcrits, the believers, the sects, ect...) the times for fast is made known. Do you know that you are causing a division?

The believers are ALWAYS divided from the hypocrites and the sectarians. If letting go of all preconceptions and following the god's clear signs causes division away from the hypocrites and the sectarians then we must be doing something right.

I would like you to answer belahamad qusestions. And he said he dont count 12.37 of their months in a year instead of 12 " shahr"

He doesn't ask any sincere questions. If he doesn't ignore all the passages that he quotes which clearly say BOTH THE SUN AND THE MOON are used to count the years and if he doesn't ignore 1712 then he will answer his own questions.

And he dont cancel out any of them verses, ect...

This is not reality. He just admitted above to cancelling out 1712. He also cancelled the word "sun" out of all the passages that he quoted.

And the hyporcrites are neither for or from you, they are swaying inbetween neither belonging to either side... is what i thought...too.............................................. peace

The hypocrites know who they are. They are claiming to follow the great reading while all they are really doing is defending their inherited preconceptions. Hence they mindlessly copy and paste passages from the great reading without following those passages. I think that it is clear on this thread who they are.

Peace,

Ayman

Umm_Tariq

Peace all,

May the god reward you for your patience Ayman in replying. I had to also come to the conclusion to just ignore certain posts. My being new to this forum seems to expose them more as well. What, did I, after 14 grueling years as a sunni salafi just decide I will come to the forum and just follow some names on posts as opposed to others!!! ??? Since I don't know anyone personally, that's really what it is. I know better now to VERIFY everything I read. My Lord in His mercy didn't let me die on that shirk of sunnism, so am I now going to act foolish and absurd to just come and follow anyone CLAIMING to be following the god's book alone for judgment when most certainly shaytaan will be on this path more so? Just because some make MORE NOISE than others and throw names around and slander?

Being the internet, it makes it even easier for hypocrites, whoever they are, since their faces are hidden but the god didn't even tell the Prophet that he would know them by their marks, He could have made it possible, but by their 'lahnil qawl', 'the tone of their speech'. I also realize that sometimes we may have to reply just to let other innocent bystanders see the other side and they can decide for themselves. The Prophet had to beware of this as well and he was the recipient of the revelation

2204 And of mankind there is he whose speech may please you in this worldly life and he calls the god to witness as to that which is in his heart, yet he is the most quarrelsome of the opponents.

They can sound very convincing if one lacks proper understanding. For me, it has become too much like dealing with sunnis with the name calling, getting personal, accusing of disbelief without evidence and throwing around the god's threat as if they alone possess it. Been there done that and I can do without it. I came here for mature discussion with respect sincerely trying to increase in knowledge and understanding and I ask the god to expose for me the liars.

Umm Tariq

afridi220

Peace Afridi,

I don't think that non trust worthy Christian archeologists built the present pagan theme park in Mecca and told sectarians to idolize a stone cube, the Black Stone, "holy" Zamzam water, etc... .

Peace,

Ayman

Archaeology News
peace
So how about this i know you will say it is written by Muslims so not trust worthy.
http//archaeologynews.multiply.com/journal/item/212
you said that Arabic was derived from Aramaic now let us find out how a reach and superior language can be derived from inferior language.

http//www.free-minds.org/articles/history/ayman1.htm

In what may be described as one of the earliest comparative linguistic attempts, al-Jahiz concludes that whereas the languages and ideas of non-Arabs had followed a process of immense meditation and long exercise of the mind, and rested heavily on studying books, Arabic language and thought, he says ? while attempting to historize for the pre-Qur'anic period ? were uniquely spontaneous and were almost inspired. Words were at the Arabs' disposal once they wanted them, and were uttered in abundance without exerting any extraordinary effort. The Arabs were not like those who needed to memorize the knowledge of others deliberately, nor had they to artificially model their speech in the form of those who preceded them. They could not but transmit what hey naturally found palatable and close to their hearts and minds.

Furthermore, Arabic has a charming simplicity and smoothness to learners, provided, that there exists a genuine need to know it. Those who question al-Jahiz's opinion are advised by him to visit Arabia and meet its most eloquent poets and orators in order to have a direct taste of Arabic.

2 Richness
Arabic expression, " ", al-Jahiz adds, "has no equal, and Arabic language has no parallel in its richness and wealth." This richness is attributed by al-Jahiz to an incomparable synonymic and derivative nature of Arabic. Al-Jahiz says,

"The Arabs have been 'more' eloquent in their expression and they enjoyed a language which was 'richer' in vocabulary, 'terser' and (uniquely) precise in word, the composition of its speech was 'more varied' and the application of proverbs which were in use therein were outstanding and more current".

3 A Divine gift or a human product?

One may ask how was it that the literary excellence of the Arabs preceded their cultural excellence? i.e., how did it happen that Arabic reached a certain level of maturity (before Islam) prior to the actual appearance of their civilization? Was there an Arabic civilization before the Arabic language matured to its pre-Qur'anic stage? Was it an outcome of a gradual agreement among Arabs? Or was it installed in form and content all of a sudden?

These questions bring us closer to al-Jahiz's view of the relation between Arabic and the Qur'an.

Not only the Qur'an was divinely revealed, Arabic itself (amongst other languages) was also inspired. Adam (PBUH) is said to have been the first speaker of Arabic, the language that was exclusively endowed with a unique capacity to grow and increase in perfection and was enriched with unique incomparable features in order to allow it to demonstrate the miraculous difference between human and divine eloquences. According to a Hashimite report, al-Jahiz says that an outstanding Arabic was later initiated in the person of the Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) who is said to have become an outstanding speaker of Arabic, not after proper instruction but because of a divine miracle that shifted his tongue and character to Arabic. That shift was a proof to the truth of his prophethood. So Ismacil (PBUH) stood in relation to his people in the same relation Muhammad (PBUH) was to stand before Quraysh. In both instances the miracle was in the sudden way each excelled the native speakers of Arabic before him.
What happened between Prophet Ismacil's time (PBUH) and the pre-Qur'anic stage of Arabic maturity? al-Jahiz's answer is interesting, as it reflects a developmental outlook within the overall inspirational outlook to Arabic. In other words, al-Jahiz gives room for a human role in the journey undertaken by Arabic. According to al-Jahiz, Arabic was a bounty-lent by God to the Arabs. It was God who provided the Arabs with the chance of exercising and experimenting with that bounty, thanks to the superior synonymic and derivative capacities endowed in it, before the time came to reveal the difference between human and Divine eloquences of Arabic.

Until Arabic reached its pre-Qur'anic stage, al-Jahiz's account of the journey made by Arabic may hypothetically be sketched as follows

1- Prophet Adam (PBUH) first Divine inspiration of Arabic with potentialities of excellence which were not given to other languages inspired to Adam (PBUH).

2- The Arabs were offered God's bounty to experiment and enrich it in Arabia.

3- Prophet Ismacil's (PBUH) outstanding Arabic in relation to the Arabic of the people around him.

4- Pre-Islamic Arabs continued exercising with God's lent bounty until they produced an unprecedented literary output. al-Jahiz's rough estimation of the oldest poetry before Islam does not precede it by more than two hundred years. His other estimate of an (indefinite) but longer period does not go as far as the period that witnessed Greek wisdom. In both cases it is implied in al-Jahiz's attitude that Arabic had been undergoing a growing line of excellence which was proportional to its proximity to Islam. This observation applied to all Arabs, initially the Northerners then followed by the Southerners who could not avoid joining the circle of Arabic due to the common geographic setting, and frequent inter-marriages with the Northerners.

5- Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) outstanding Arabic in relation to the Arabic of his people; Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) sudden excellence in Arabic, ranks after the Qur'an in the hierarchy of excellence.

6- The unsurpassable Qur'anic Arabic.

7- Post-Islamic Arabic.

So what al-Jahiz believes to have occurred to Arabic in the meantime, is eventually evident in the superior literary status of its most notable clan, Quraysh. Quraysh is said to have been subjected to the strictest divine supervision that "eliminated genetic impurities (and raised it in its literary and socio-moral excellences over all other Arabian tribes) in preparation for all that is magnificent and most significant", al-Jahiz says

" ".

al-Jahiz's own description of the literary status of Quraysh and the Pre-Islamic Arabs sums up his view of Arabic mentioned above; i.e., of an inspired supervised Arabic. According to al-Jahiz, Arabic had been miraculously enriched, initiated and divinely nurtured until it reached its pre-Qur'anic destined stage of maturity whereby Arabic and the Arabs were both to experience and witness an unusual charming Arabic, the Qur'an, that had an unprecedented arrangement (Nazm ), a new literary configuration that assembled their very own alphabets and words yet which lies beyond their literary level of superiority, and stays unsurpassable!

4 Divine ' Qisma'
Al-Jahiz substantiates his original thesis of the divine origin of Arabic by making another comparative study, this time among the Arabian tribes themselves; he says
"While some Arabian tribes had shared the same fertile geographical setting, they however exhibited different poetical output. Thus, there was no relation between the geographical setting and poetical output. Poetry and power of expression, are due to " ", i.e., what Allah has allocated (Qasama)"

According to al-Jahiz the invisible caring hand of God was not confined to the Arabs alone, but was also responsible for the virtues of all other nations. For example, the Greeks were also gifted with wisdom, the Persians with political management, the Turks with military strength, etc.

The Arabs were endowed with the Arabic language and its corresponding socio-moral code, which al-Jahiz calls " ", "the fortune of Arabic" (Hazz al-cArabiyya).

Again he says
"God's Justice ordained that His bounties be evenly divided among His creations, by giving each generation and every nation its right share, that is conducive to the correct understanding of religion and leading to the perfection of the world's welfare".

And his notion of Divine "qisma" does not mean that such virtues bestowed by God on nations should be apparent in every member of these nations. They have been available on a general basis, and are likely to be almost uniquely present in one but not in the other nation, says al-Jahiz
"It was not that every Arab was a poet and expert in tracking foot-steps or in the science of physiognomy, but these virtues and the like were more abundant, widespread, exclusively perfected and more apparent amongst them" .

5 Superiority of Arabic " " ("Fortune of Arabic&quot

Owing to the superior feature of Arabic, the Arabs were elevated to a distinguished literary and socio-moral status among nations
"Because of the eloquence of Arabic and the beauty of its expression, God sent His best Prophet amongst the Arabs, made his language Arabic and even revealed to him an Arabic Qur'an".
In other words, Arabic was God's chosen language for His chosen message i.e., Arabic could not have carried God's message to humanity had He chosen English or Latin for that purpose. Since Arabic was destined to play a specific function in the future, i.e., to witness the revelation of the Qur'an, we can now understand why al-Jahiz was inclined to expect a distinguished birth of the Arabic language, first in the person of Prophet Adam (PBUH), then in Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) accompanied in the latter case by God's supervision of his Qurayshite descendents, lest they, the Qurayshites, ? as an expected Islamic nation ? will not certainly benefit from the beautiful Arabic, its charming logic and its binding moral code that it had been intended to convey.

What is significant in al-Jahiz's view of Arabic is not just the linguistic aspects of Arabic but also the inseparable socio-moral dimensions
" . ".

If the Arabs were to excel the nations of the world, Arabic has been the mark and the cause of their excellence.

The fortune of Arabic, " ", that was exclusively for the Arabs had given them a three-fold superiority and a distinction over the nations

The Arabs have proved to be perfect candidates for the first Islamic society proposed in the Qur'an owing to the binding moral code that remained amongst their notables as was evident in the mastery of Arabs in cheering of virtues and condemning of vices, says al-Jahiz
" ... ."

The Arabs have been credited with the honour of transmitting to the human race God's first Universal Speech that was conveyed through their language. It was through the Arabs that God addressed humanity, and it is therefore incumbent on the Arabs to translate the meaning of the Qur'an to all the world.

As the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic, the Arabs were raised to be God's direct addressee, thanks to the (socio)-literary excellences He has provided.

The Arabic language is superior to the languages of the world in the same way that the Qur'an is superior to the language of the Arabs. The Arabs who failed to display something similar to the Qur'an, while they being God's direct addressees has been meant to be God's permanent sign and proof of His miracle to humanity at large, " ( &#1607 ", as they, themselves, have failed to match its excellences.

6 The notion of Nazm (Qur'anic literary configuration)

al-Jahiz found the Qur'an to be magnificent in its amazing literary configuration, he says
"The Qur'an differs from all the known rhymes of poetry and prose. It is a prose whose rhythm is not modelled on that of poetry or rhymed prose (sajc, "&quot and whose configuration stands as a magnificent evidence and as a great Divine proof".
The underlying secret of the Qur'an, says al-Jahiz, lies in the very special and unprecedented composition of the very Arabic letters and words used by the Arabs. As in any masterpiece of art, the attention follows the way things are composed and assembled from the same raw material known to all .

It is remarkable that this notion of Nazm was later developed by cAbd al-Qahir al-Jurjani (d. 471 AH) who adopted al-Jahiz's position regarding the miraculousness or the inimitability of the Qur'an.

7 The notion of Sarfa and the literary capacity of the Arabs

In spite of al-Jahiz's Muctazilite position regarding man's great capacity of free will, it is only in this place that we find his view of human ability in relation to (i) literary output and (ii) the inability to surpass the Qur'an to reflect his belief in the "Jabrite" doctrine of Predestination (i.e., human free will is restricted in this respect).
Could he not have served the notion of Icjaz better without resorting to "sarfa", i.e., while still recognizing man's ability as continuously perfect and not turned away? The point was that while some maintained the notion of Icjaz, in their full recognition of man's undisrupted free will yet of his inability to surpass the Qur'an, men like al-Jahiz however, thought that it would show more respect for man's free will if we assume his established weakness vis-?-vis the Qur'an, was not a malfunction of our perfect faculties, something not coming from within when left to their normal functioning, but due to a Superior Will that turned them away from so doing. If al-Jahiz's resort to sarfa may appear to be an early compromise between caql (reason) and naql (revelation), it is in facta diplomatic call to continuously marvel man's caql that could have produced something like the Qur'an, had he been able to do so; i.e., if he could have escaped being eventually turned away by God from doing so. Al-Jahiz's view of sarfa is therefore twofolded in its implication. It is first implying a sarfa of capacity (Divine intervention, man's ability being divinely incapacitated), hence leading to sarfa of attention, will and desire. In this respect he was following the position of his teacher, al-Nazzam.

But does al-Jahiz see the Qur'an as an obstacle to the future post-Qur'anic literary capacities of the Arabs?

No. If Arabic was destined to grow before the Qur'an, its post-Qur'anic development cannot be denied. Arabic was not meant to be frozen in the literary forms of pre-Islamic Arabs. Post-Qur'anic eloquence of Arabic was still possible, and al-Jahiz himself notes that some Arabic tribes reacted differently to the coming of Islam a tribe like Banu Badr remained poetless while Banu al-Harith b. Kacb produced famous Islamic poets, when they were not famous poetically before the advent of Islam. So while post-Qur'anic eloquence was recognized by al-Jahiz (even if it was emitted by non-Arabs) ? that eloquence was recognized by al-Jahiz, displayed by their predecessors and consequently below the perfect Arabic that had been cristallized in the Qur'an, thanks now not to the factor of mixing with nations that was gradually diluting their pure literary talents but also due to the Divine intervention or mechanism of "sarfa" through which al-Jahiz implies ? God was maintaining, generation after generation, His version of the "Perfect Qur'anic Arabic".

I think that the Qur'anic challenge loses its defying intensity and cannot be held as really open and charismatically eternal if man's literary abilities are unnecessarily and continuously checked, incapacitated and diverted from meeting that challenge. al-Jahiz's attempt to serve the concept of eternal challenge ? eternal cajz (failure) therefore need not be based on Divine "sarfa " but rather on an undisrupted capacity and undeflected attention; al-Qur'an's superiority is not because man's attention is eventually being turned away, but it is because man's capacity is kept at its best. In short, endowed with a promising potential for a growing exellence, Arabic's journey rested - in perfecto - in the Qur'an, leaving Arabs with the unsurpassable walls of the excellences of the Qur'anic Suras, as if these written suras (literally, walls or fences) were erected before all Arabs, speakers of Arabic and the nations of the world, as an empirical sign pointing to the undeniable difference between the literary peak of human (i.e. Arabic) eloquence and that of the Divine Qur'anic eloquence.

Concluding Comments

al-Jahiz's above views on Arabic should be fitted into their historical context as they initially reflect an intellectually curious search for the wisdom underlying the conditions that brought about the Qur'an in an Arabic dress. Hence, al-Jahiz may be credited for initiating such an analytical search into the distinctive features of pre-Islamic Arabic language and culture, and how they stand in comparison to the Qur'an and to all other languages and cultures, in the belief that there was no conflict between the "Universality" of the Qur'an and its "particular" Arabic setting.

In his rational attempt to understand the harmonious relation that existed between the Qur'an and the pre-Islamic language and culture, al-Jahiz at one point did say that Arabic enjoys a higher literary status than that of the other languages, simply because of the undeniable charismatic fact that the Qur'an was revealed in Arabic. This position needs not be necessarily implying a national prejudice by al-Jahiz towards the Arabs. In my opinion, the notion of the superiority of Arabic to the other languages, outlined above, does not reflect the real and complete picture, because before Arabic happened to enjoy that status, it had to demonstrate its inferiority to the Qur'an. Similarly, had the Qur'an been revealed in Latin, all non-Latin languages would have been inferior to it, as Latin would be less superior to the revealed Latin. So before raising Arabic to an internationally comparative linguistic analysis, we have to remember the historical failure of the most eloquent Arabs to imitate the Qur'an, that was intended to stress the permanent difference between human and Divine eloquences, between pre-Islamic Arabic and Qur'anic Arabic, and left as a sign to attract the world via the Arabs to its contents .

If the superiority of Arabic was not proposed by al-Jahiz out of a "Shucubi" national prejudice, it was nevertheless forwarded against those Shucubi's (anti-Arabs), who undermined the language and culture of the Arabs after realizing their role in the appearance of the Qur'an and the proposed Muslim Umma. al-Jahiz's opinion on the special birth or distinctive initiation and Divine supervision of Arabic could be seen from the same angle. In order to face "Shucubi" attacks, al-Jahiz had to raise the superiority of Arabic from the pre-Qur'anic era to the time of Prophet Ismacil (PBUH) or Adam (PBUH), thus enhancing its historical prestige (and future one too) that could fit with his Muctazilite notion of Khalq al-Qur'an (createdness of the Qur'an), but without taking it any further in time as his contemporary Hanbalites were assumed by him to have raised it above the limits of time (and therefore accused by him of polytheism by assuming it had co-existed with God) by opposing to hold the Muctazili notion.
As far as al-Jahiz's inspirational attitude to the origin of languages is concerned, one may raise the objection that if Prophet Adam (PBUH) was equally the first speaker of languages, what was the special thing about Arabic? Because Arabic had been special since its inception in Prophet Adam (PBUH), then this raises its status vis-?-vis other languages since its initiation. We may infer that out of all languages that had been revealed to Prophet Adam (PBUH), Arabic was the only language exclusively chosen by God to enjoy those innately incomparable superior features in order to fulfill its destined Qur'anic role i.e., in order to demonstrate miraculously the obvious difference between human and Divine eloquences. Of course, languages other than Arabic were used by God or His prophets before Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), but by raising the charismatically inspired features of Arabic to Prophet Adam's time (PBUH), we may also say that not even one of the languages revealed to those Prophets was intended to demonstrate the dimension Arabic had had to convey. Previous prophetic messages were instead concerned with the content that could have been expressed in any language. The content of previous languages of revelation was stressed by external miracles which were outside the realm of human speech, but the content of the final revealed message was mainly stressed by its Divine and inimitable expression .

In short, Arabic had a special start in preparation for a special future function. That is why we have seen al-Jahiz's explanation of the literary excellence of Arabs as being "almost inspirational", i.e., drawing from the Divine pool, implying that it could not have been learnt or acquired. Similarly was the case with Prophets Adam (PBUH), Ismacil (PBUH) and Muhammad,(PBUH), because perfection in Arabic eloquence can only be sought from the reservoirs of God whereby no one can rival Him in this respect. This outlook reflects another Muctazilitic way for expressing their concern to apply monotheism or Tawhid (here, uniqueness of power of speech of God) in all aspects; a concern that sometimes had grown out of its (Muctazilitic) proportions, and unintentionally bridged the gap with the Hanbalite's or "Jabrite's" concept of God, especially when one prominent member like al-Jahiz held that although it appears that man had had a share in the linguistic development undertaken by Arabic, it was in fact ? al-Jahiz says ? God who was the Hidden and Real Architect of events, Sole Supervisor and Unique Perfector of Arabic.

voodoo