feeling like something is missing......
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Peace to all,
Im not concerned with being right or wrong, that is a personal decision as you said, but I am concerned with coming to reasonable conclusions on issues that arent spriritually personal, I never asked that we try to define a persons conscience or free choice, but only to set some down some basic beliefs that the majority of us agree with, and the best way to do this is to vote and let the majority rule, even if temporarily, and yes, only God will judge us in that which we differed, but he wont punish us either for consulting which each other to try to decide the issues of the day, which every society since the first man walked out of a cave had to do in order to prosper. So lets leave the truely personal decisions of the soul to each persons free will, but when sisters such as topo or others are feeling a desire to return to silly rituals and dangerous doctrines, because we have provided nothing better, is ridiculous, whats the point of God even giving us the Quran or other guidance, the entire Quran could have been reduced to one paragraph in order to follow what you profess is important , so why did he try to give us specific examples, and rituals of conduct if it wasnt important to him, and why didnt prophet Mohammad just sit back and tell everybody, just do what you all want and follow whatever you feel inside, i am not sent to watch over you, if he did, or other prophets, we would have been overcome and destroyed long ago.
Islam is an ethic of action also, not just personal piety and speculative and monastic meditaion.
I like this article also,
Quran & Democracy
Are they compatible?Thursday September 22nd, 2005, by Muhammed Asadi
What has happened in modern bureaucratic societies, that parade as democracies (like the USA), is that the chance to reason and the ability to be free has been lost (see http//robots.asadi.org) that is the nature of a bureaucratic society a society where standardization is the norm and the person is surrounded by rules that govern behavior from birth to death. Such "democracies" exists in form only and not in essence, here choices are not formulated by a "public" but rather insinuated upon a highly propagandized "mass society" that knows next to nothing regarding public issues. This is achieved by control of the "cultural apparatus" by a small aristocracy, the Power Elite. The "cultural apparatus"- language, education, status and technology- with the media and the formal educational institutions playing a dominant role, thus ensures that this elite achieves cultural hegemony. The person thinks he or she is free and living under a "democracy" but the reality of the situation is much different.
A democratic society assumes an "informed" public, as against a propagandized "mass society". Those in a "mass society" have their hopes and aspirations conditioned by what others have told them and unconsciously acquired habits based upon such conditioning. Those in a public formulate their values and choices themselves based on substantive reason, as C. Wright Mills explained in the 1950s and as the Quran made clear fourteen centuries back "Say Are those who know and those who do not know alike?" (Quran 399)
Under a system where the "mass society" has not yet gained enough information to make choices, to transform itself into a "public", democracy in essence is impossible. Hence the Quranic statement "And if you obey the majority of those on earth they will lead you astray; that is because they follow conjecture, and that is because they only guess" (Quran 6116). A "majority of those on earth" does not constitute an "informed Islamic public" and never will (according to the Quranic statement). Further we are told "None can inform you like the one who is aware" (Quran 3514), a similar recommendation is the case with Quran 2559.
Once we have a semblance of a "public" emerging, as happened after the first community of Muslims emerged out of the previously existing "mass society" in Arabia (Quran 3110), even the prophet was told to ". consult with them upon the conduct of affairs." (Quran 3159). We are also told how the process of governance is to be conducted in a society of similar publics "And whose rule is based upon consultation (Shura) among themselves" (Quran 423. This consultation (Shura) is to be totally in the public record and not secret (Quran 5810). Therefore, we can conclude that an Islamic society would have a counsel where the public consults with the decision makers, the decision makers would be the ones "who know" (as deduced above) i.e. are qualified in the area in which they are making decisions. The decision makers would be numerous, unless one person claims to know everything in all fields, which is impossible. A counsel of intellectuals with no limit to their numbers that are in constant touch with the public and consult with them is thus the Islamic form of government. This would be democracy in essence, since the entire society including the decision makers would have equal status and would participate in the decision making process. The criteria for assigning status in such a society would not be material possessions rather it would be the level of social consciousness that an individual possesses (see Quran 4913).
The framework under which decisions are to be made would be the Quran (see 6114 etc), and specifically its "mohkam" (or standard setting) statements (see Quran 37). These standard setting statements are called the "mother of the book" (Ummul Kitaab) in the Quran (Quran 37). Based upon these verses not only are our new laws going to be interpreted but also the other verses of the Quran itself, "the motashabey" (the allegorical or consimilar). The "mohkam" verses number a lot less than the entire Quran, therefore the amount of freedom that the Quran grants us is much greater than any that is granted by a bureaucratized society, where laws govern every aspect of life. What traditionalists have done is to canonize their own (extra Quranic) laws as a bureaucratized form of "Islam", this is exactly what the Quran warns against (Quran 4221), because this not only stifles reason but prevents freedom in that it reduces the "consultation" part of governance and does not take into consideration the historical era and the social structure that exists in that era.
The Quran thus grants greater freedom and the resulting ability to reason compared to any (bureaucratized) system that exists in the current epoch "Those who avoid the greater (Kabair) crimes and shameful deeds..." (Quran 4237). The greater crimes are less than a handful and can be extracted from Quran?s description of crimes, those are the only ones we are told to avoid. Here the Quran is not concerned about the smaller details that keep the traditionalist "Islamic scholars" busy, even as they ignore the bigger public issues that are causing great problems among humankind. A truly Islamic society would be one in which freedom and reason flourishes and laws are minimal, it would be a truly democratic society, where democracy is practiced in essence and not just by slogan. Hence, the purpose and judgment of life based upon choice "...to determine which of you is best in deeds." (Quran 672).
Muhammed Asadi
Kurt
Kurt
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Peace to all,
Im not concerned with being right or wrong, that is a personal decision as you said, but I am concerned with coming to reasonable conclusions on issues that arent spriritually personal, I never asked that we try to define a persons conscience or free choice, but only to set some down some basic beliefs that the majority of us agree with, and the best way to do this is to vote and let the majority rule, even if temporarily, and yes, only God will judge us in that which we differed, but he wont punish us either for consulting which each other to try to decide the issues of the day, which every society since the first man walked out of a cave had to do in order to prosper. So lets leave the truely personal decisions of the soul to each persons free will, but when sisters such as topo or others are feeling a desire to return to silly rituals and dangerous doctrines, because we have provided nothing better, is ridiculous, whats the point of God even giving us the Quran or other guidance, the entire Quran could have been reduced to one paragraph in order to follow what you profess is important , so why did he try to give us specific examples, and rituals of conduct if it wasnt important to him, and why didnt prophet Mohammad just sit back and tell everybody, just do what you all want and follow whatever you feel inside, i am not sent to watch over you, if he did, or other prophets, we would have been overcome and destroyed long ago.
Islam is an ethic of action also, not just personal piety and speculative and monastic meditaion.
KurtI think this is where we disagree. I don't think the Quran works as a constitution.
peace -
Peace be upon you,
Always follow that which the God has inspired to you, and you only know what God has inspired (versus your own fantasies) by verifiying the information in real life. The things we leave will certainly call us back, just like giving up any habit like eating junk food at night. That chocolate cake will scream your name in the middle of the night. But as with anything, if you turn your back on it (ignore the thoughts), then its power will diminish and finally wont have any power to move you. You must use the skill of "salaat" to reprogram the thoughts that come to you in the situations you want to change. Salaat PREVENTS evil deeds...Salaat is a real skill, and our greatest weapon.
Did not God say to SEEK HELP through Patience and salaat? So as has already been shown patience is a must, but also we must go inside and reprogram how we feel...thats right you can reprogram how you feel about the events in life. Praise be to God for Its Mercy.
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Peace to all,
lobster and god within, do either of you eat pork, or intoxicants, why or why not?
Kurt
I try to base my actions on reason. If I avoid something it is because it is harmful to me or others.
As I said, the important thing is to live a healthy and moral life. If I find something to be unhealthy or immoral, I do not do it. It's not always that easy but I try.I stay away from drugs and junk food.
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Peace be upon you Ironsky,
lobster and god within, do either of you eat pork
I don't eat any kind of meat, unless there is nothing else to eatand I need to live. This is based on reading of the laws of life(Al kitaab) which show us that man is not designed to eat meat, even though it is capable of eating meat.
or intoxicants, why or why not?
Because there is more harm with them then help, I refrain unless they are needed for medical purposes. That which gives pleasure causes addiction, it is the excess that harms us.
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Peace be upon you Ironsky,
Why is pork of so much concern to you? Do you eat Rat? Why or why not?
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I think its pretty obvious why Kurt asked whether you consume alcohol and pork. Namely because according to the Quran Pork is forbidden and alcohol is satanic. I think you guys need to consider what you are trading God's guidance for.
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of God?s Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
1695 And do not purchase with God?s pledge a cheap price. What is with God is far better for you if you know.
Regarding other meats being forbidden
1614 And He is the One who committed the sea, that you may eat from it a tender meat, and that you may extract from it pearls that you wear. And you see the ships flowing through it, so that you may seek from His bounty, and that you may be thankful.
5222 We will supply them with fruit and meat such as they desire.
5621 And meat of birds that they desire.
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Peace be upon you Lobster,
Meat eaters have fangs and substances in ther stomachs to fight the infections of eating an amimal. Humans have to tenderize thier meat to get around not having fangs, and makes effery effort to spice it up to taste like a vegetable. Meat takes a very long time for the human to digest. And there are many mor reasons I dont have memorized, but you can do an easy search to find many more examples.
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Peace be upon you,
Lets first determine God's guidance before we accuse others of trading it.
As for myself, I dont rely on only one man made book for guidance. Even if it is one of the best books for guidance. God says to trust in that which is INSPIRED to you and those before you.
Why is it that you blindly believe that pork is bad , while rat meat, or turkey scrapple is good for you?
Was there some sort of verification process that made you believe that, or because it is written in a book?
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Peace to all,
and did you know that the absence of meat shrinks your brain?
Thanks aalmakto, your spot on, so lobster doesnt eat pork, why not, is it harmful or immoral for you,, i thought you only follow reason, so is it unreasonable for us to eat pork, cause I used to love it, i still have a hard time turning down a bratwurst, my wife even tries to tempt me by cooking them and saying how much i used to love them,, yet I never touched pork once since I read the Quran and beleived it is from God, but oh well, to me mine and to you yours,
Kurt
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As for myself, I dont rely on only one man made book for guidance.
Was there some sort of verification process that made you believe that, or because it is written in a book?Peace God Within,
If I thought the Quran was a man made book I probably would not be on this forum. So to answer your question, I believed it because it was written in "a book" as you put it. -
Peace be upon you,
and did you know that the absence of meat shrinks your brain?
Point me to a website or something where I can follow up what you say.
Thanks aalmakto, your spot on, so lobster doesnt eat pork, why not, is it harmful or immoral for you,, i thought you only follow reason, so is it unreasonable for us to eat pork, cause I used to love it, i still have a hard time turning down a bratwurst, my wife even tries to tempt me by cooking them and saying how much i used to love them,, yet I never touched pork once since I read the Quran and beleived it is from God, but oh well, to me mine and to you yours,
So you did no verification, you just believe and follow?
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We shouldn't eat pork, it is totally haraam! elektro
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Peace be upon you,
Point me to a website or something where I can follow up what you say.
So you did no verification, you just believe and follow?
If a person has verified the Quran and accepted its claims of divinity would it not be hypocritical to then begin questioning every clear ruling . I am not talking about the vague verses here. But the verses that even a Layman can understand.
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Peace to all,
Yes, god within, sometimes beleiving is all we have, and when our reason conflicts with what God says, it is most likely our reasoning capacity that is wrong and not God, though I agree we should think, question, learn, and reason as much as we can, remember we are still using our own puny brains and limited intellect to think rationally, yet God is all knowing, so yes i try my best, but when in doubt I dont doubt God, so faith in God and absolute belief in him is the most perfect thing we can do when all else fails us.
And godwithin, heres a newsclip for starters that a recent atudy shows a strictly vegan diet shrinks your brain and other problems, nothing wrong with a bit of meat, though I refuse pork.
http//timesofindia.indiatimes.com/HealthSci/Eating_veggies_shrinks_the_brain/articleshow/3480629.cms
Kurt