Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

Samia

in this one a short Alief after Jeem given A to it . I wonder if it makes any different in meaning showing Alie or not.

Salaam Bahman

Is the "numerical value" of the short alif the same as that of a clear alif? Is the numerical value of a "dhamma, kasra, fat7a or any other short vowel" the same as that of the corresponding letter? Do you count two letters for a shadda (which it realy is)?

As for the meaning, it's the same; but I do not think you are concerend with the meaning together with the topography; otherwise you would not count 114 bismillahs (see my post above to Nimnimak).

Peace
You missed this part )
"then I checked this site
http//www.openburhan.com/
found extra alief"

If this is the reference you use for your calculations, then please check 2247 and 769 for the word (basTa ample increase) and you will see that it is written with a "Seen" in both verses. This will change the numbers of Seens and Saads in all the calculations.

alanic

Peace Ayman and others rejecting all numerology in Quran,

I'm a person who believes in the Quran and I believe some of the numerology is actually very impressive. I would like to provide the most fascinating example that I know and question your reasons for rejecting it.

What do you think about the calculations under the heading "Mathematical Design of the Basmalah" over here http//www.submission.org/beyond.html. Can you be objective, think honestly and then decide?

I think that's a very very deliberate pattern. You take those different numbers that represent the same words, put them between the sequence numbers, and the concatenated long number becomes divisible by 19. This is very much beyond 1/19. It's not just a combination of some events having a very low probability (which would be easy to reject), it's a combination of very highly coupled events happening at the same time. It's a deliberate pattern being satisfied over and over. It's also exhaustive to a degree. Do you think this is just a coincidence? Now you may say, some facts towards the end seem arbitrary. If this makes you deny the deliberate pattern through facts 2-9, do you think you are being honest? Is this not a consistent rule being applied over and over, generating the same pattern? Does it matter how many trials it took for the person who discovered this?

You made a point against numerology in Quran by pointing out the messengership claim of RK. If there was a deliberate pattern in Quran, (hypothetically) one that you accepted, would it matter who found it? Would it matter that the person that initiated this not only said that he was a messenger, but actually did all kinds of terrible acts? Would the identity of the person who discovered something that you (hypothetically) accepted be any reason to reject it? Would it be any different than a homophobe not using computers because Alan Turing was gay?

Similarly, would your attitude against numerology in Quran be any different if acknowledging some of it might lead to rejecting two verses? I believe a lot of people look at RK's identity, and rejection of two verses, and then decide that they won't see any pattern, rather than looking at the pattern objectively and then decide.

Also, are some bad examples of numerology making you discard other good ones? Do you need to reject everything numerological in Quran because you need to reject the bad ones?

Would gematrical values not being used at the time of Quran's revelation change anything? Would gematrical value system being derived from Hebrew letters change anything? Is God not able to create a system back then that uses something that happens in the future? Does the information have to be available at that time on earth, for God to be able to use it? Does God not have full control over what happens on earth?

If we stretch this question, does the Quran we are supposed to be using have to be exactly the same as the one that first got scribed? Is God not powerful enough to control how it changes? Is God not capable of authenticating the one we end up receiving with some code?

Re Lobster
Would aliens be able to control the temporal properties of the discovery? (1974, 19x74=1406)

Sorry for the long post, I hope you don't get stuck on some points and ignore others that I made.

Regards.

Bahman

Salaam Bahman

Is the "numerical value" of the short alif the same as that of a clear alif? Is the numerical value of a "dhamma, kasra, fat7a or any other short vowel" the same as that of the corresponding letter? Do you count two letters for a shadda (which it realy is)?

Salam Samia
I am not expert in this srea and let it with you and other friends. I have asked for help here and appreciate anybody can assist.

As for the meaning, it's the same; but I do not think you are concerend with the meaning together with the topography; otherwise you would not count 114 bismillahs (see my post above to Nimnimak).

If the meaning is same then i think code 19 tool assit us to fix it in he way that code accept to remove any change in case is happened.

If this is the reference you use for your calculations, then please check 2247 and 769 for the word (basTa ample increase) and you will see that it is written with a "Seen" in both verses. This will change the numbers of Seens and Saads in all the calculations.

submission'org is using Seen too and should be seen this word is very common in farsi with same meaninig and we use Seen. I remeber this word had been pondered many times.
Peace.

Bahman

Peace Ayman and others rejecting all numerology in Quran,

Peace Alanic and welcome
Ayman is using numerology all time to tarnish Miracle.
I call it numerical structure
Peace

Bahman

But you should care. First of all if he tells you that he found it on the first trial when he obviously used an arbitrary method then you and I know that he would be a liar. Why would you trust a liar?

If he found it after the expected number of trials of finding 19 divisibles in a random sample (19 trials) then this so-called code is in fact a natural random occurence.

If he found it after a million trials as you say then there is absolutely no Code 19 in the great reading.

You have to start without preconceptions. The question is IS THERE A CODE OR NOT. The question is not HOW CAN I FIND A CODE.

Peace,

Ayman

But you should care. First of all if he tells you that he found it on the first trial when he obviously used an arbitrary method then you and I know that he would be a liar. Why would you trust a liar?

Peace
Who is he. Rashad wrote that in his translation footnote and did not mentioned how he found it first or last trail. What makes different when you drive your who and how many times trail for each portion of it has preformed. Should we refuse car because is done by many trails?
I respect all prophet and messengers but doe it make difference if GR was scribed by Mohammed or any body else. Does it change the fact and truth and context of GR. Are you believing in it because name of Mohammed is as scriber.
For months after my conversion I did not know who discovered it and even I did not know that Rashad was assassinated.
Should I measure my belief in presence of any fact according to times of trail to discover it ?

Rashad is dead, he never wrote how many time he tried but Hati is alive and if reading this please tell us how many time you tried to find whole chapter reverses is multiple of 19.

Here dear Edip is criticizing my opinion when I said these numerical pattern in GR is like Jig saw puzzle when there is no formula. Many pieces and only way is trail and error.

Some people can put pieces together faster and better than others regardless their academic knowledge.

How easily you van accuse others liars when they never claimed they discovered their finding with first trail.

I search for founder and here claims it is Rashad?s

http//www.message-of-god.com/Eng%20Miracle_002.htm
Chapter number (1), total number of Verses (7), Verse number (1), number of letters (19), gematrical value of every letter 2 F 60 w 40? 1 C 30 ? 30 ? 30 ? 5 C 1 ? 30p 200 d 8 ? 400 500 10 30 200 8 10 40 ..2.. 17. 1 30 8 40 4 30 30 5 200 2 1 30 70 30 40 10 50 ..3.. 12.. 1 30 200 8 40 50 1 30 200 8 10 40 ..4.. 11.. 40 30 20 10 6 40 1 30 4 10 50 ..5.. 19. 1 20 1 20 50 70 2 4 6 1 10 1 20 50 60 400 70 10 50 ...6... 18.. 1 5 4 50 1 1 30 90 200 9 1 30 40 60 400 100 10 40 ...7.. 43.. 90 200 9 1 30 700 10 50 1 50 70 40 400 70 30 10 5 40 1000 10 200 1 30 40 1000 800 6 2 7 30 10 5 40 6 30 1 1 30 800 1 30 10 50 19
Dr. Khalifa used to publish a news letter named "Submitters Perspective" at his Moque in Tucson Arizona. In one of the issues he printed this awesome mathematical miracle and he called it "Earth Shattering" mathematical miracle. Two hours after he mailed the news letters to subscribers, the resent famous earth quake of San Francisco occurred ! If you refer to news media at that time, you will notice that most of the numbers refered to this incidents were divisible by number 19.
I found a mistake in my presentation . 139 which is number of letters has been added by mistake at the end.

If he found it after the expected number of trials of finding 19 divisibles in a random sample (19 trials) then this so-called code is in fact a natural random occurence.

Peace,

You with your knowledge and tools available find out probability for such pattern. Can you do with computer or like Jg saw puzzle there is no way to find probability.
How a 19 cycle can work with a locked, sealed,interlocked, engaged solidly, only position ?
Any change in any part of pattern would destroy the linked, interconnected, interlocked, sealed, secured, protected, letters of messages .
Can you understand?
It is like Magic Hexagon . there is no 19 cycle, it is random numbers, each number has its own location which can not be replaced, relocate, change, add, deduct, erase,????same with those numbers which are GV if each letter.
Can You understand?

You have to start without preconceptions. The question is IS THERE A CODE OR NOT. The question is not HOW CAN I FIND A CODE.
Peace,

Ayman

I never said and I do not know and I said I DO NOT CARE . But did you understand above then find out for such case how many trail can be done.
Took me 5 minutes to find how many trail can be done with this case.
Chapter number can have only 2 position. Start and end of whole chapter 2 trails
Number of verses in chapter can have only 2 position. Start and end of whole chapter 2 trails
Verse numbers can have 2 position start or end 2 trails
Number of letters in each verse can have 2 positions start or end 2 trails
Total of 8 trails and personally to put Chapter number at end ( if function is questionable) so seven trails.
Can you understand?
You have to start without preconceptions. The question is IS THERE A CODE OR NOT. The question is not HOW CAN I FIND A CODE.
You are known well and specially for your claim for your scorching moon which took me to your article for Mecca.
You may be interested how your opinion was discussed 7 years ago Yahoo Islam forums. You would see familiar names like Layth and others with different id. Mine is ?beccanotmecca? ?exathiest?
This forum not moderated for long time and as usual ?..
http//groups.yahoo.com/group/beccanotmecca/message/1
but back to your question code 19 now is all over life aspect and every day we find more and more.
I recommend you read Dr.Plichta?s book God?s Secret Formula and find how many he talks abou existence of code 19 in different field of science.
This one is an example as you like moon;
http//y19.net/meton%20year.htm
If these discussion be shorter then I can add some more information here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596951.msg175312#msg175312
Peace.

Bahman

Peace Bahman,

Yes I do. I have real proof.

We should all go in the direction of the truth not in the direction of delusional numerology of hiding failures and sharing successes.

Peace and good night my friend,

Ayman

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
262

nimnimak_11

Peace Nimnimak,

Why do you assume that the titles were inspired by the god?

Peace Bro Ayman

Here is my reason (summarised short version)

I read the scripture and accepted it (the text of it) I hardly cared about the titles as they had nothing to do with my acceptance of the text so that is why at this stage i am assuming that the titles are correct.

Gotta go but will respond with the rest (decorations). (sorry)

ayman

Peace Nimnimak,

Here is my reason (summarised short version)
I read the scripture and accepted it (the text of it) I hardly cared about the titles as they had nothing to do with my acceptance of the text so that is why at this stage i am assuming that the titles are correct.

If you don't care about the titles then why do you assume that the titles are inspired by the god?

Are those titles part of the scripture that you read and accept. For example, when you pray do you say "Surat Alfatiha, bism allah alrahman alrahim, alhamd li-allah rab alalamin..." or do you say "bism allah alrahman alrahim, alhamd li-allah rab alalamin..."?

Also, all early manuscripts of the great reading don't have chapter titles. Those are later innovations and their only purpose is ease of reference.

Gotta go but will respond with the rest (decorations). (sorry)

Here is an enlarged picture to make it easier for you. Is this decoration found at the beginning of chapters inspired by the god

http//i34.tinypic.com/11v7kh2.jpg

This should be an easy answer so it shouldn't take much of your time.

Peace,

Ayman

khyaletanzim

@ all those who believe in code 19

I need the answers for the following questions.

Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
Q#2. what has been understood by Code 19 which was not understood previously?
Q#3. Is it possible that Quran can be maligned? (some verses or words can be added or been subtracted from Quran)
Q#4. Is there a new word(not sign) of God coming?
Q#5. Is there a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming?
Q#6. What is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

@ ayman

Please tell me according to your understanding, if there is a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming? and what is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

Regards.

ayman

Peace Khyaletanzim,

@ ayman
Please tell me according to your understanding, if there is a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming? and what is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

The messenger only purpose is to deliver the message. We have the message intact with us. So I don't see the no need for a new messenger.

As for the word "deen", it means obligation. The only obligation we should seek is peacemaking ("islam&quot.

Peace,

Ayman

Bahman

@ all those who believe in code 19

I need the answers for the following questions.

Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?

Q#2. what has been understood by Code 19 which was not understood previously?
Q#3. Is it possible that Quran can be maligned? (some verses or words can be added or been subtracted from Quran)
Q#4. Is there a new word(not sign) of God coming?
Q#5. Is there a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming?
Q#6. What is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

@ ayman

Please tell me according to your understanding, if there is a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming? and what is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

Regards.

Peace.
Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture)
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful
7431
Q#2. what has been understood by Code 19 which was not understood previously?
4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers 7431
Q#3. Is it possible that Quran can be maligned? (some verses or words can be added or been subtracted from Quran)
I notice brother Ahmed Bidal explaining all in detail for you in this topic already.
And if you do little search you find tons of posts and articles my answer
Yes
Up to now we witness 9128-129 is rejected by code 19 numerical textual and pure numerical.
Q#4. Is there a new word(not sign) of God coming?
Are you expecting to visit God?
Q#5. Is there a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming?
According to Quran Yes
http//y19.net/moremessenger.html

Q#6. What is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

262

Peace

farida

As for the word "deen", it means obligation. The only obligation we should seek is peacemaking ("islam&quot.

Peace,

Ayman

If peacemaking is the only obligation(deen) then what about this;
476 Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.

ayman

If peacemaking is the only obligation(deen) then what about this;
476 Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.

We are only to fight in self-defense those who attack us first

2190 And fight in the cause of the god against those who fight you and do not commit agression, the god does not like the aggressors.

Peace,

Ayman

the_seeker

Salaam

I see; Ayman is looking for any excuse to compete with God, and establish a religion based on his gibberish, where he does not need God's permisson or even God, or any authority, except his own arrogant desire to prove himself right.
I had the experience of debating with him on the subject of Hot/Ramadan and I was able to see clearly that he constantly ignored verses from the Quran and kept asking irrelevant questions, taking the discussion back and forth until people got fed up and left the thread, knowing that many people do not have the desire or patience to read the full discussion and often see the bottom line. His cronies finish off by backing him blindly, giving the impression that they won the argument. Sadly most valid proofs are buried in his desire to distort the system.

peace all,

Hasty generalizations like the one above could be the reasons why people left the thread (or other threads for this matter).

1 - Can we consider the desire to verify information as "asking irrelevant questions or taking the discussion back and forth?"

2 - Those who are knowledgeable & want to share information are expected to give out information that has solid backing from the Quran. Sure most brothers & sisters lack the time to read through all the thread; that is why we have to answer questions in a straightforward manner.

3 - Who are Ayman's cronies? Do they exist? If they do, then they are responsible for their own souls. I don't believe that this forum is about who wins the arguments; but that this is a place to verify information insha allah. Proofs not personalities should be the criteria at the end of the day.

peace.

ramon O0

the_seeker

Peace.
Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture)
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful
7431

Peace

peace all

again, does this verse refer to Code 19? please see Samia's earlier post.

brothers & sisters, the clarification of this verse will really aid us in our journey to understanding if the code exists or not all. ignore the names/pen names posting on the thread & just read through the posts. does this verse (and similar others) refer to code 19?

again, proofs not personalities...though insha allah i will be able to know more of you.

peace. ramon O0

Samia

Salam Samia
I am not expert in this srea and let it with you and other friends. I have asked for help here and appreciate anybody can assist.
Peace.

Salaam Bahman

You should at least be familiar with the way the qur'aan is written and not compare it with how the language is written or used today. You read Farsi, so this should not escape you. And as I said, meaning does not matter when you are busy calculating words and letters, otherwise, the whole base for the code (7431) is completely off point.

If the meaning is same then i think code 19 tool assit us to fix it in he way that code accept to remove any change in case is happened.

Now the code is aimed at fixing the qur'aan's mistakes. Based on what criterea? The number 19. How you reached this number? Through calculating letters in the qur'aan! Can you see the circular argument?

submission'org is using Seen too and should be seen this word is very common in farsi with same meaninig and we use Seen. I remeber this word had been pondered many times

No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.

anthonywallace

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
Did God make everything comfortable for him?
Did he turn greedy and want that God give him more?
If so, then he was stuborn of Gods revelations.
Did he say " This is nothing but fabrication of old.This is nothing but the words of a human being."
If so, then he will be cast into the scorching heat.
And do you know what is the scorching heat? Il tell you over the scorching heat is 19. ( ? 19 gaurdians of the Fire ?)
Was he of those who salated?
Did he feed the poor person?
Did he used to participate with those who spoke falshood?
Did he deny the day of judgment. Untill the certainty came to him. ? If so then why did he turn away from being reminded?
Does the number 19 miricle create a seperate scripture!

anthonywallace

There was a sing for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting.

afridi220

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
Did God make everything comfortable for him?
Did he turn greedy and want that God give him more?
If so, then he was stuborn of Gods revelations.
Did he say " This is nothing but fabrication of old.This is nothing but the words of a human being."
If so, then he will be cast into the scorching heat.
And do you know what is the scorching heat? Il tell you over the scorching heat is 19. ( ? 19 gaurdians of the Fire ?)
Was he of those who salated?
Did he feed the poor person?
Did he used to participate with those who spoke falshood?
Did he deny the day of judgment. Untill the certainty came to him. ? If so then why did he turn away from being reminded?
Does the number 19 miricle create a seperate scripture!

He said two ayat were added while God said.

{Surely, We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.} (Al-Hijr 159)

And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it (min mithlihi) and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers. S. 223-24

Or do they say He has forged it? Say Then bring a chapter like this (mithlihi) and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 1038

Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it (mithlihi) and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 1113

Say If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran (bimithlihi hatha al-Qurani), they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others. S. 1788

Or do they say He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. Then let them bring an announcement like it (mithlihi) if they are truthful. S. 5233-34

muscle

farida

We are only to fight in self-defense those who attack us first

2190 And fight in the cause of the god against those who fight you and do not commit agression, the god does not like the aggressors.

Peace,

Ayman

If fighting is only allowed in self defence then what about the verse below where the strong are asked to help the weak and opressed
475 Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master