Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

Bahman

Peace Bahman,

Yes I do. I have real proof.

We should all go in the direction of the truth not in the direction of delusional numerology of hiding failures and sharing successes.

Peace and good night my friend,

Ayman

Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
262

nimnimak_11

Peace Nimnimak,

Why do you assume that the titles were inspired by the god?

Peace Bro Ayman

Here is my reason (summarised short version)

I read the scripture and accepted it (the text of it) I hardly cared about the titles as they had nothing to do with my acceptance of the text so that is why at this stage i am assuming that the titles are correct.

Gotta go but will respond with the rest (decorations). (sorry)

ayman

Peace Nimnimak,

Here is my reason (summarised short version)
I read the scripture and accepted it (the text of it) I hardly cared about the titles as they had nothing to do with my acceptance of the text so that is why at this stage i am assuming that the titles are correct.

If you don't care about the titles then why do you assume that the titles are inspired by the god?

Are those titles part of the scripture that you read and accept. For example, when you pray do you say "Surat Alfatiha, bism allah alrahman alrahim, alhamd li-allah rab alalamin..." or do you say "bism allah alrahman alrahim, alhamd li-allah rab alalamin..."?

Also, all early manuscripts of the great reading don't have chapter titles. Those are later innovations and their only purpose is ease of reference.

Gotta go but will respond with the rest (decorations). (sorry)

Here is an enlarged picture to make it easier for you. Is this decoration found at the beginning of chapters inspired by the god

http//i34.tinypic.com/11v7kh2.jpg

This should be an easy answer so it shouldn't take much of your time.

Peace,

Ayman

khyaletanzim

@ all those who believe in code 19

I need the answers for the following questions.

Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
Q#2. what has been understood by Code 19 which was not understood previously?
Q#3. Is it possible that Quran can be maligned? (some verses or words can be added or been subtracted from Quran)
Q#4. Is there a new word(not sign) of God coming?
Q#5. Is there a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming?
Q#6. What is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

@ ayman

Please tell me according to your understanding, if there is a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming? and what is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

Regards.

ayman

Peace Khyaletanzim,

@ ayman
Please tell me according to your understanding, if there is a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming? and what is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

The messenger only purpose is to deliver the message. We have the message intact with us. So I don't see the no need for a new messenger.

As for the word "deen", it means obligation. The only obligation we should seek is peacemaking ("islam&quot.

Peace,

Ayman

Bahman

@ all those who believe in code 19

I need the answers for the following questions.

Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?

Q#2. what has been understood by Code 19 which was not understood previously?
Q#3. Is it possible that Quran can be maligned? (some verses or words can be added or been subtracted from Quran)
Q#4. Is there a new word(not sign) of God coming?
Q#5. Is there a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming?
Q#6. What is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

@ ayman

Please tell me according to your understanding, if there is a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming? and what is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

Regards.

Peace.
Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture)
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful
7431
Q#2. what has been understood by Code 19 which was not understood previously?
4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers 7431
Q#3. Is it possible that Quran can be maligned? (some verses or words can be added or been subtracted from Quran)
I notice brother Ahmed Bidal explaining all in detail for you in this topic already.
And if you do little search you find tons of posts and articles my answer
Yes
Up to now we witness 9128-129 is rejected by code 19 numerical textual and pure numerical.
Q#4. Is there a new word(not sign) of God coming?
Are you expecting to visit God?
Q#5. Is there a possibility of new messenger or messengers coming?
According to Quran Yes
http//y19.net/moremessenger.html

Q#6. What is Deen according to your understanding of Quran?

262

Peace

farida

As for the word "deen", it means obligation. The only obligation we should seek is peacemaking ("islam&quot.

Peace,

Ayman

If peacemaking is the only obligation(deen) then what about this;
476 Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.

ayman

If peacemaking is the only obligation(deen) then what about this;
476 Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.

We are only to fight in self-defense those who attack us first

2190 And fight in the cause of the god against those who fight you and do not commit agression, the god does not like the aggressors.

Peace,

Ayman

the_seeker

Salaam

I see; Ayman is looking for any excuse to compete with God, and establish a religion based on his gibberish, where he does not need God's permisson or even God, or any authority, except his own arrogant desire to prove himself right.
I had the experience of debating with him on the subject of Hot/Ramadan and I was able to see clearly that he constantly ignored verses from the Quran and kept asking irrelevant questions, taking the discussion back and forth until people got fed up and left the thread, knowing that many people do not have the desire or patience to read the full discussion and often see the bottom line. His cronies finish off by backing him blindly, giving the impression that they won the argument. Sadly most valid proofs are buried in his desire to distort the system.

peace all,

Hasty generalizations like the one above could be the reasons why people left the thread (or other threads for this matter).

1 - Can we consider the desire to verify information as "asking irrelevant questions or taking the discussion back and forth?"

2 - Those who are knowledgeable & want to share information are expected to give out information that has solid backing from the Quran. Sure most brothers & sisters lack the time to read through all the thread; that is why we have to answer questions in a straightforward manner.

3 - Who are Ayman's cronies? Do they exist? If they do, then they are responsible for their own souls. I don't believe that this forum is about who wins the arguments; but that this is a place to verify information insha allah. Proofs not personalities should be the criteria at the end of the day.

peace.

ramon O0

the_seeker

Peace.
Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture)
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful
7431

Peace

peace all

again, does this verse refer to Code 19? please see Samia's earlier post.

brothers & sisters, the clarification of this verse will really aid us in our journey to understanding if the code exists or not all. ignore the names/pen names posting on the thread & just read through the posts. does this verse (and similar others) refer to code 19?

again, proofs not personalities...though insha allah i will be able to know more of you.

peace. ramon O0

Samia

Salam Samia
I am not expert in this srea and let it with you and other friends. I have asked for help here and appreciate anybody can assist.
Peace.

Salaam Bahman

You should at least be familiar with the way the qur'aan is written and not compare it with how the language is written or used today. You read Farsi, so this should not escape you. And as I said, meaning does not matter when you are busy calculating words and letters, otherwise, the whole base for the code (7431) is completely off point.

If the meaning is same then i think code 19 tool assit us to fix it in he way that code accept to remove any change in case is happened.

Now the code is aimed at fixing the qur'aan's mistakes. Based on what criterea? The number 19. How you reached this number? Through calculating letters in the qur'aan! Can you see the circular argument?

submission'org is using Seen too and should be seen this word is very common in farsi with same meaninig and we use Seen. I remeber this word had been pondered many times

No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.

anthonywallace

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
Did God make everything comfortable for him?
Did he turn greedy and want that God give him more?
If so, then he was stuborn of Gods revelations.
Did he say " This is nothing but fabrication of old.This is nothing but the words of a human being."
If so, then he will be cast into the scorching heat.
And do you know what is the scorching heat? Il tell you over the scorching heat is 19. ( ? 19 gaurdians of the Fire ?)
Was he of those who salated?
Did he feed the poor person?
Did he used to participate with those who spoke falshood?
Did he deny the day of judgment. Untill the certainty came to him. ? If so then why did he turn away from being reminded?
Does the number 19 miricle create a seperate scripture!

anthonywallace

There was a sing for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting.

afridi220

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
Did God make everything comfortable for him?
Did he turn greedy and want that God give him more?
If so, then he was stuborn of Gods revelations.
Did he say " This is nothing but fabrication of old.This is nothing but the words of a human being."
If so, then he will be cast into the scorching heat.
And do you know what is the scorching heat? Il tell you over the scorching heat is 19. ( ? 19 gaurdians of the Fire ?)
Was he of those who salated?
Did he feed the poor person?
Did he used to participate with those who spoke falshood?
Did he deny the day of judgment. Untill the certainty came to him. ? If so then why did he turn away from being reminded?
Does the number 19 miricle create a seperate scripture!

He said two ayat were added while God said.

{Surely, We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.} (Al-Hijr 159)

And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it (min mithlihi) and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers. S. 223-24

Or do they say He has forged it? Say Then bring a chapter like this (mithlihi) and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 1038

Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it (mithlihi) and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 1113

Say If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran (bimithlihi hatha al-Qurani), they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others. S. 1788

Or do they say He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. Then let them bring an announcement like it (mithlihi) if they are truthful. S. 5233-34

muscle

farida

We are only to fight in self-defense those who attack us first

2190 And fight in the cause of the god against those who fight you and do not commit agression, the god does not like the aggressors.

Peace,

Ayman

If fighting is only allowed in self defence then what about the verse below where the strong are asked to help the weak and opressed
475 Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master

IronSky

Peace to all,

I agree farida, fighting is allowed in those circu,stances also, but it is still basically self defense, just that your defending the weak ones against the strong oppressors, and God does not love the oppressors, and I think theres also a verse that says oppression is worse than slaughter. SO I believe its allowed to fight for others that cant defend themselves, which none of us do by the way.

Kurt

farida

Peace to all,

I agree farida, fighting is allowed in those circu,stances also, but it is still basically self defense, just that your defending the weak ones against the strong oppressors, and God does not love the oppressors, and I think theres also a verse that says oppression is worse than slaughter. SO I believe its allowed to fight for others that cant defend themselves, which none of us do by the way.

Kurt

Exactly!! Oppression is worse than slaughter and if you do not stand up for the cause of Allah and fight against it, because you are worried that you too may be harmed then you are helping to spread corruption and committing shirk as you have given into tyranny
476 Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.
However if you remember that you as an individual have a responsibilty and that GOD is much more powerful, much more effective and HE will neutralize the power of the oppressor than world will be a safer place for everyone
484 You shall fight for the cause of GOD; you are responsible only for your own soul, and exhort the believers to do the same. GOD will neutralize the power of those who disbelieve. GOD is much more powerful, and much more effective
.

Edip_Yuksel

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
....

A futile attempt to attack Rashad. Anthony tries to hurl some mud through his questions yet the direction of the mud is based on getting the Quranic chronology of the description backwards. In other words, his questions are having a silly ride on a boomerang. I am not sure whether he does it deliberately or by ignorance, his prejudice and lack of appreciation of "one of the greatest" signs is obvious from his expressed intention.

According to the Quran, the prototypical unappreciative challenger rejected the divine nature of the Quran and THEN he was subjected to the 19, not the other way around. So, Anthony might wish to twist the facts, but Rashad does not fit this description. He changed his mind after the discovery of the 19 and after witnessing its great paradigm changing message.

With the advent of the fulfillment of the prophecy in 1974, we are all described by verse 7431. So, the question is which group do we belong to?

The hypocrites and unappreciative people who will fall into a fitna (trial, torturing test) by not comprehending the role of 19 and ask "What God means by this?"
Those whose acknowledgment increases by witnessing the great prophecy containing an extraordinary philosophical evidence/proof for the divinity of the Quran and its protection with an embedded mathematical design.
The Christians and Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran is removed through the number 19.

Yes, which of the three groups above do we belong to?

Peace,
Edip

AlFajr

Peace all,
941 Mobilize in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew

We do not know where to Mobilize and we have no gear that I am aware of? Could it mean joining the army of those being oppressed?

ayman

Peace Ramon, everyone,

brothers & sisters, the clarification of this verse will really aid us in our journey to understanding if the code exists or not all. ignore the names/pen names posting on the thread & just read through the posts. does this verse (and similar others) refer to code 19?

I completely agree with you. The key passage that Code 19 is founded on is 7431. It is not surprising that Khalifa grossly mistranslates this passage as we see below

KHALIFA We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

Khalifa mistranslates 7431 to make it appear as if "the number" is the reason why "the people of the book are convinced, the faith of the faithful is strengthened, etc.". Instead, the real reason is not ?the number? but it is that they see that "their count is only a trial/temptation for the unappreciative". Even Edip himself corrected Khalifa?s gross mistranslation. Please compare Khalifa?s distorted cause (underlined) and effect (bold) relationship with the correct cause and effect in Edip?s own translation during our earlier debate and all the translations below

EDIP We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their number to be ONLY A TRIAL/PUNISHMENT for the unappreciative
(1) to convince those who received the book,
(2) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(3) to remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as the believers, and
(4) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

YUSUFALI And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number ONLY AS A TRIAL for unbelievers,- in order that
(1) the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and
(2) the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that
(3) no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that
(4) those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?"
Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.

LAYTH 7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number EXCEPT AS A TRIAL for those who have rejected, so that
(1) those who were given the Scripture would understand, and
(2) those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that
(3) those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that
(4) those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Finally, my own translation

AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.

I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.

This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.

I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.

Peace,

Ayman