Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

Bahman

You should at least be familiar with the way the qur'aan is written and not compare it with how the language is written or used today. You read Farsi, so this should not escape you. And as I said, meaning does not matter when you are busy calculating words and letters, otherwise, the whole base for the code (7431) is completely off point.

Dear sister Salaam.

I am exhausted and I am going to relax for while and read only. You as moderator have more load and wish you luck GW.
But your intelligent and intellectuality gives me energy to resposne your post. God Bless you and hope to witness the truth.
Have you ever tried a new key in old lock, Rust by time develops some extra pieces that your key do not turn easily and after few time it works ok because key teeth removes fine extra pieces. As far as you do not damage the lock and key it is ok. Now code 19 is that new key and lock is GR.
As far as the meaning of word do not be effected then should obey code to remove impurity which has happened during centuries knowingly or not willingly or not.
First we check if key works and then we look waht kind of rust is there make it difficult.
The meaning of messages are second phase of anybody witness Miracle.
When book has no proof ( rejecting Miracle) then is noesense to talk about meanings GR is considered another scripture with no proof .

Now the code is aimed at fixing the qur'aan's mistakes. Based on what criterea? The number 19. How you reached this number? Through calculating letters in the qur'aan! Can you see the circular argument?

You and many like you raised in grew in families practicing your belief , for example going Mecca kissing the black stone and all life following Sunnah as Sunni or Shia. Now found those fabrications in hadith are wrong and turn into GR Alone without proof is not ebough
Without proof and trying to persuade disbelievers of GR by your heart feeling which can not be transferred to other or explaining pudding of GR and now try to match to science which every day is changing is not prefect way.
This change missing the big part and that is proof for book and this is your difficulty which have to write and write and write, discuss and discuss and discuss, argue and argue and finally if you are doing this in your place a fight and bloodshed.
I am coming from different background. I was called Shia and we had even a GR parked on highest shelve ( only one and only book) which never read it even was translated.
The manner and life style in Mohammedan territories is not Islam and I did not know like many other that corruption is coming from Hadith and have no choice unless pretend they are believer because they have to sacrifice everything from family to job to reputation if they are lucky do not penalized as Mofsedol fel arz ? corrupted to earth tto death penalty.

These problem has caused many like me to desert GR when they are not aware of realities.
Many turn into atheism in hide and do all instructed lies as they have no choice and some think that Christianity is better. Mnay left Christianity and fell into Moh If they are lucky Like Kyle Jewell and Maria Majidah they find the right path and come to Quran Alone but without proof they can not do better as for Bible.

I come from atheism converting agnostic and my search was finding assign of God in this earth for this era human which is traveling into space.
My search on this screen took me to this by Rashad. I understood it and surrendered and submitted to God and do my life not accoeding to Rashad?s opinion but GR ALONE . I never asked for name for finder and how he got to such number.
When I explained this to my only daughter 10 years ago she asked me before I explain more tell her why god Chose 19 and not any other number and that was big question which I chose it as my site y19.net
reminding me. These taking time discussions has not given time tome to finish my study and search which is half done and soon GW iwill publish it.

Say we do ignore

THE SIMPLE FACTS
Like the Quran itself, the Quran's mathematical coding ranges from the very simple, to the very complex. The Simple Facts are those observations that can be ascertained without using any tools. The complex facts require the assistance of a calculator or a computer. The following facts do not require any tools to be verified, but please remember they all refer to the original Arabic text

The first verse (11),known as "Basmalah," consists of 19 letters.
The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ..............19 x 6.
The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ....19 x 334. Note that 6+3+4+6 =.......19.
The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19x6.
From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ...............19 suras.
It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+...+26+27) is 342, or .............19 x 18.
This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ........19 x 18.
The famous first revelation (961-5) consists of .......19 words.
This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4.
Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of .....................................................19 verses.
This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras.
Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.
The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of ............19 words.
The first verse of the last revelation (1101) consists of ................19 letters.
14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of "Quranic Initials" (such as A.L.M. of 21), and prefix 29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29 = 57 = ......19 x 3.
The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic Initials occur is 2+3+7+...+50+68 = 822, and 822+14 (14 sets of initials) equals 836, or ................. 19 x 44.
Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed sura (Sura 6 there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.
Between the first and last initialed sura there are ....19 sets of alternating "initialed" and "un-initialed" suras.
The Quran mentions 30 different numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
This is a condensed summary of the Simple Facts.
And then we Ignore 7430
And just say X person claims that he has found secret of 14 intials in 29 chapters plus many amany and further discoveries.
How this can be ignored
And How this can be ignored and how this and this and this??????????????????????????????
All these are coincidence ?
Of course some Mohammedans are accepting code 19 but for denial and rejecting claims for a person which had clear proof for his assignment. A person which put his life on his belief when he could live with al privileges by offered millions dollars of stolen money of nation which are hide in banks and used in casinos and their entertainment with income for naive masses going to kiss black stone hence never understood GR and following conjectures of their parents.
What makes me sad is people like you and Ayman and many and many well educated people yet tied in chain of your parents beief and think that no falsehood enters when you do not have any proof but we have.
Of course I like the way you and other with good knowledge of book bring your questions and we are ready to answer . But all Ihave asked all disbelievers is just produce one example like those.
Only one the simplest one and I promise you that if you can do it without using computer like 1400 years ago then I agree that it is man made and text can be man made because there is no proof.
You witnessed here just few days ago I posted a slide of The Key chapter and ask Ayman which told me had Phd but now I he said not in Math but engineering which math is a must and asked him to produce one like that. Did you see the response what kind of nonsense number was added and claimed he did it.
I could accept that from new members that some of them instead of doing search and find the information they jump on this forum and making long list of questions that can be find easy to googol it. Some question are nonsense and childish and that makes you people and us tired and exhausted. Of course some of these converts think that anything with 19 is Miracle , they do prophecies and links to their name, date birth, death , name it and make pattern of 19 to be another messenger.

But finally why we shoud discuss and argue about a clear evidence and reject it because Rashad did not translate 7431 as you learned.

When people witness this should they ask where 19 comes from. If no 19 was written in GR then we should reject it. Iam not sure how old you people are but your parent welcomed Rashad for his finding and you were teaching it in your school. Please read Ahmed Deedat claims which has to forget when he could be assassinated by such people and Binladen serving CIA.
When you come to God Alone area you should know that your only support id God Alone and anytime Stan can take your life.
We and people like Ayman with his search showing what kind of scandal have been there to create Mecca bring masses of na?ve and misinformed to kiss black stone and use income plus stolen oil money of nation to be spent on their corruption and herams.
Ahmadinejad is follower of this man which assassinated 25000 Mjuhid ( shia opposition party and communists in 1367 29 years ago) He is propagating Imam Zaman (Mehdi) coming building mansion and highways and masses go every day to send letter to Mehdi
Such person like many others have PHDs says that his policy id dictating to him by Mehdi. You see how far stupidity is over Mohammedan?s territories ad how far they are from GR. Such person parroting what other revolutionist leaders have told in UN hence thousand opposition Shia and other parties are in jail without court for months and years. They close newspaper ans site do not agree with them and easily they assassinate people. They keep these people mis informed and not let them to do search and study. Iread in one post that Miracle site are filtered in UA and same in other Mohammdan?s
I thin after I finish this discussion with I will stay away from writing and read for while. This may help us from circular writing.

No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.

I read in Miracle
This initial prefixes three suras,
7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence
of the letter "S" (Saad) in these three
suras is 152, 19x8 (Table 2). It is
noteworthy that in 769, the word "Bastatan"
is written in some printings with a "Saad,"
instead of "Seen." This is an erroneous
distortion that violates the Quran's code.
By looking at the oldest available copy of
the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found
that the word "Bastatan" is correctly written with a "Seen

http//y19.net/q-tash.gif

Table 2 The Frequency of
Occurrence of the
Letter "S" in the
Saad-initialed Suras
Sura Frequency of "S"
7 97
19 26
38 29
152 (19x8
Would you explain more in detail with reference to above .
Peace.

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

Read what Nun clearly said

"Even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart"

This statement is either a bad joke or you are wrong.

There is no symmetry or anything. I was able to easily achieve more real symmetry in about 10 minutes while messing up ALL the chapters.

If I randomly change the numbers then 1 out of every 19 of my trials are going to be divisible by 19. A computer can do 19 trials in a millisecond. So it would have taken me even less time to get a 19 divisible randomly. Even without a computer it wouldn't take very long to do 19 trials.

This has little to do with 1/19 statistics; we are looking at a basic structure not absurdities with preconceptions and working things backwards to find a number. You can only do exactly what you did which was to move an Equal and Even #of verses within a group, top or bottom half...

even-even
odd-even
odd-odd
even-odd

Else the structure is solid which I?ve yet to figure out what prevents doing the above and suspect tie to # verses.

There is definitely an even-odd binary structure along with symmetry ? too obvious unless one is blind...

http//i35.tinypic.com/atonwz.jpg

http//i38.tinypic.com/fe449k.jpg

http//i35.tinypic.com/2cr4yev.jpg

http//i35.tinypic.com/2rw17af.jpg

Lastly, anyone claiming verses were added/deleted is a SERIOUS mistake and would be careful propagating a lie.

Quran does not contradict.

Bahman

This has little to do with 1/19 statistics;
Peace
You may be itersted in brother Oben finding
Peace

Bahman

peace

Salam Everybody,

I would like to share a very interesting phenomen, which no body is giving attention to. Its the structure of the verses of the Quran and how it is balanced using the Even and the Odd

Definitions

• 1 even and odd
even number a number, which is divisible by 2
odd number a number, which is not divisible by 2

• 2 homogenous and heterogenous
We define a Sura to be homogeneous, if the number of the sura is even and the number of verses in it is also even, or if the number of the sura is odd and the number of verses in it is also odd.
Otherwise the sura is heterogenous

• 3 Suras of the Quran
There are 114 Suras in the Quran. The sum of numbers from 1-114 = 6555

• 4 numbered verses in the Quran
There are 6234 numbered verses in the Quran

The phenomenons

• There are 60 Suras in the Quran, which have even number of verses.
These are divided into

• 30 even sura numbers

• 30 odd sura numbers

• There are 54 Suras in the Quran, which have odd number of verses.
These are divided into

• 27 even sura numbers

• 27 odd sura numbers

• There are 57 homogenous Suras and 57 heterogenous Suras in the Quran

• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the homogenous section is 6234 (compare with definition #4)

• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the heterogenous section is 6555 (compare with definition #3)

• The number of even Suras in the homogenous section = 30 = The number of odd Suras in the heterogenous section

• The number of odd Suras in the homogenous section = 27 = The number of even Suras in the heterogenous section

• The sum of Sura numbers in the homogenous section = 3303 = The sum of the numbered verses of the heterogenous section

• If we examine the two halves of the Quran (Suras 1-57 and Suras 58-114) we find

• The number of homogenous Suras in the first half = 29 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the second half

• The number of homogenous Suras in the second half = 28 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the first half

• The sum of the numbered verses in the first 19th chapter is 2346 and the sum of numbered verses of the Quran is 6234, and the 6234 is the 19th permutation of 2346

And today I've observed something amazing
If we examine the numbered verses of the Quran
7 286 200 176 120 165 206 75 127 109 123 111 43 52 99 128 111 110 98 135 112 78 118 64 77 227 93 88 69 60 34 30 73 54 45 83 182 88 75 85 54 53 89 59 37 35 38 29 18 45 60 49 62 55 78 96 29 22 24 13 14 11 11 18 12 12 30 52 52 44 28 28 20 56 40 31 50 40 46 42 29 19 36 25 22 17 19 26 30 20 15 21 11 8 8 19 5 8 8 11 11 8 3 9 5 4 7 3 6 3 5 4 5 6

And for each number we see if the number following it is higher or lower and write H for higher and L for lower we will get the following string
HLLLHHLHLHLLHHHLLLHLLHLHHLLLLLLHLLHHLLHLLHLLLHLLHHLHLHHLLHLHL-HL-HH-LL-LHLLHLHLLLHLLLHHHLLHLL-HLH-H-LLHLLHLHLHLHH

The - means the number of verses wasn't increased nor decreased

We have in this string 61 L's and 45 H's (difference 16)

But if we see how many times it was switched from high to low (represented as HL or H-L) we'll find 32 switches

and if we see how many times it was switched from low to high (represented as LH or L-H) we'll find also 32 switches.
One can not escape the relation between 32 and 16

Now to imagine the complexity of this structure, here is a task for people, who are interested in mathematics and/or programming, what we can just imagine solving it using arrays of integers.

? Find a prime number P
? Find N numbers, where each number has an index from 1-N and N is a multiple of P
? An index is homogeneous if the index is even and the number assigned to it is even, or if the index is odd and the number assigned to it is odd, otherwise its heterogeneous the number of homogeneous indices must be equal to heterogenic indices
? The even numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The odd numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The sum of indices from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? The sum of numbers from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? Even indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to odd indices in the heterogeneous section
? Odd indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to even indices in the heterogeneous section
? The sum of indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to the sum of numbers in the heterogeneous section
? The number of homogeneous indices in the first half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the second half of indices
? The number of homogeneous indices in the second half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the first half of indices
? The sum of the N numbers should be the P-th permutation of the sum of the number assigned to the first P indices
? For each number from the N numbers write the number
followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P
? For each number from the N numbers write the sum of numbers from 1 to this number followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P

The 114 numbers given on this thread fulfill the requirements of this task for P=19

Best regards,
Mohamed

P.S. almost all information are taken from http//www.mucizeler.com/19lar/ciftveteksayi.htm (turkish language, however I don't speak turkish P)

afridi220

Peace Ramon, everyone,

I completely agree with you. The key passage that Code 19 is founded on is 7431. It is not surprising that Khalifa grossly mistranslates this passage as we see below

KHALIFA We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

Khalifa mistranslates 7431 to make it appear as if "the number" is the reason why "the people of the book are convinced, the faith of the faithful is strengthened, etc.". Instead, the real reason is not ?the number? but it is that they see that "their count is only a trial/temptation for the unappreciative". Even Edip himself corrected Khalifa?s gross mistranslation. Please compare Khalifa?s distorted cause (underlined) and effect (bold) relationship with the correct cause and effect in Edip?s own translation during our earlier debate and all the translations below

EDIP We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their number to be ONLY A TRIAL/PUNISHMENT for the unappreciative
(1) to convince those who received the book,
(2) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(3) to remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as the believers, and
(4) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

YUSUFALI And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number ONLY AS A TRIAL for unbelievers,- in order that
(1) the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and
(2) the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that
(3) no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that
(4) those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?"
Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.

LAYTH 7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number EXCEPT AS A TRIAL for those who have rejected, so that
(1) those who were given the Scripture would understand, and
(2) those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that
(3) those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that
(4) those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Finally, my own translation

AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.

I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.

This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.

I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.

Peace,

Ayman

peace bravo peace

Sibute

Ayman wrote

According to Edip?s logic, the god also provides the Bible Code numerologists with a winning lottery ticket of HITLER?s name encoded with EVIL, and many other future events that didn?t even happen until many centuries after the Bible but yet are ?coded? in there. Using Edip?s logic then this is more impressive than a mere number being divisible by 19. Unlike winning the lottery which is routinely accomplished by many people every year, how many of the billions of people of the past hundreds of years predicted that HITLER would be EVIL? Probably very few if any at all. So the probability is 1 in billions.

Well done!You have nailed it.

arnoldyasin

Finally, my own translation

AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.

I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.

This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.

I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.

Peace all,

I enjoy seeing all the views being put up. One thing I noticed is how both sides make some exclusive statements. Edip makes his and Ayman also.

For example, to make Fitna to mean only trial/temptation, while this a more later developed meaning to my knowledge. Fatana means to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment. An-Nar means Fire, but also meant to mark something as was done with cattle, which were marked using red-hot heated stamps. Why for example can't the verse also says

And we didn't make the owners/companions/as-haba of the (burned)marking/fire/alnnari except those that control/mala-ikatan ; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA/purification/purifying method for those who have been unappreciative...

So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.

I agree with Ayman that the 19-code has become a religion on its own, but how people react to it isn't the touchstone, the only thing that counts if there is a proof for the claim or not. But to say all '19-ers' only care about 19 and loose focus on the Qur'an itself is a generalizing and thus wrong claim.

And Khalifa isn't also the real touchstone anymore. Can we obtain a sort of pattern with 19? That is the question, leave the ' discoverer' out of this, since it almost the same method as how anti-islamists use the hadith-stories on the prophet Muhammed to discredit the Qur'an, saying; 'a murdering pedophile cannot be a prophet'.

What are Qur'anists claims on this? We say neglect the hadith and judge the Qur'an on the text itself. Same counts for 19, forget Khalifa and his methods, and just look at what evidence can be gained objectively, for or against.

To say 19 is just a temptation is for me also a weird claim, since I cannot believe God plays tricks on people. There is no function in this and would create a philosophical contradiction with a rational God's image.

These discussions have lost their scientific objective merit. It is like watching Richard Dawkins and Alistair McGrath debating. Both representing the 2 extremes, wherein objectivity is lost due to emotions and attachement to the chosen side of the debate.

Bahman

Peace every body
Ayman has not been able to produce even single simple one any body there to produce one.?

2721230561002001150403104228010306840880690085
is multiple of 19

Salam,

Those who disbelieve in the Remembrance when it comes to them -- and surely it is a Book Sublime;

falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable.

The GV of the two verses above is a multiple !

840104 8201040 4050 4005071030 90030805 4050 6301 21050104105 4050
1302930 101400105
301 707107 30204002 61505 31540 30401 213070020200 208020061
1307001050 150 = 19 x
442160431633705528423721595210688449500331642657 94952 916053 31733
163231584489563531963265264534238502121263796352642210635800032174052686850.0000

Indeed no falsehood can enter it!

Hati

that640137030501

19082130501200

13014030205

640137030501704400540

130180400505130700105020802006

13010604001010050

130700105016400611302040026107414

13070010501140506111040501

630110200400121307001050

630110300400261304064050650

6301010063013070010508010100306254040200800

613020802006504017001120014130305

40501030011610541040501030011

64011070304035064200220130156

6401510130130700202001030302600200

6401370305011908213050120013014030205640137
03050170440054013018040050513070010502080200
61301060400101005013070010501640061130204002610741
4130700105011405061110405016301102004001213070010
5063011030040026130406405065063010100630130700105
0801010030625404020080061302080200650401700112001
41303054050103001161054104050103001164011070304035

0642002201301566401510130130700202001030302600200=

19x33691422657957411647632210594810685292842826476
324760002842790423160553319474236951589505947926526
368950006878952895600032173791580321442848984216053
231845321600264015847473894800687895289805321210736
9796337179213950684742138427931584477900052792765284
31621084895831684552843000058948112121337105805269268
7058107900157956000582647580792852643164745086323737
5270036852736896331715800

640137030501190821305012001301403020564013703050170440
054013018040050513070010502080200613010604001010050130
7001050164006113020400261074141307001050114050611104050
16301102004001213070010506301103004002613040640506506301
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7001120014130305405010300116105410405010300116401107030403
506420022013015664015101301307002020010303026002007431=

7x
914481472144558316150017144716290029377162432928814914362875
7400572150186714435744002865900151485728715001867144357377151
59002914323010591615285864302007230157721451858717148573161528
58643757300429143230434377215215185858580430438572929715728615
17914860011437328868600092914528587428773290077214432858801505
86292871857309144438614862152028602875736662878716144724288600
01471860857429633

6661976401370305011908213050120013014030205640137030501704400540
13018040050513070010502080200613010604001010050130700105016400611
30204002610741413070010501140506111040501630110200400121307001050
630110300400261304064050650630101006301307001050801010030625404020
0800613020802006504017001120014130305405010300116105410405010300116

401107030403506420022013015664015101301307002020010303026002007431=

951710914481472144558316150017144716290029377162432928814914362875
74005721501867144357440028659001514857287150018671443573771515900291
43230105916152858643020072301577214518587171485731615285864375730042
914323043437721521518585858043043857292971572861517914860011437328868
600092914528587428773290077214432858801505862928718573091444386148621

5202860287573666287871614472428860001471860857429633

=

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951710914481472144558316150017144716290029377162432928814914362875
7400572150186714435744002865900151485728715001867144357377151590029
14323010591615285864302007230157721451858717148573161528586437573004
29143230434377215215185858580430438572929715728615179148600114373288
68600092914528587428773290077214432858801505862928718573091444386148
6215202860287573666287871614472428860001471860857429633

http//y19.net/74-31.htm

First chapter in Quran "GR"
followed numer of verses , verse number, number of letter in each verse ,followed by every single letter Geometrical Value
is multiple of 19
http//creatorsignature.com/19key.jpg

http//creatorsignature.com/7key.jpg

Hati
discovered the writing whole chapter by using Geometrical Value of each letter from end to start without using any other number is Multiple of 19
http//creatorsignature.com/keyhati.jpg

Bahman

So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.
I

Peace everybody
I like to see reponse to ttis part of Arnold.
Peace )

afridi220

http//books.google.com.pk/books?id=XYbBSpIm1SAC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=the+meaning+of+fitna+al+quran&source=web&ots=RWJ6-HQbK4&sig=OqoojMfLx1gXeCUp4lGyGez1iT8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA163,M1

arnoldyasin

Al-Tabari gives the meaning how it is understood by classical theology to mean in the Qu'ran, not directly what the original meaning was before the Qur'an.

"The word Fitnah means originally smelting of gold to check its purity, also to throw things into the fire to purify it from its rubbish."
Page I-55. Quran translation and commentary by Muhammed Ali, 2004 2nd edition. Page 15,

Its basic meaning is to melt silver or gold in fire so that it gets pure (Taj Ul-roos), so Fitna means to test or examine by heating, or by temptation, trials, affliction or disease. It also means, sedition or deviation. It further means to show the reality of a thing. Al-Fattana means the touchstone on which gold or silver is rubbed to test its quality.
Exposition of the Holy Quran, Mafhum Al-Quran by G.A. Parwez. 1990.

And lie melted it with fire, (T,) or put it into the fire, (S, Msb,) namely, gold, (T, S, Msb,) and silver, in order to separate, or distinguish, (T, Msb,) the bad from the good, (T,) or the good fromn the bad, (Msb,) or to see what was its goodness. (.)
Volume 6, page 118 Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane 2003 2nd reprint.

See online
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000118.pdf

The original meaning of Fatana is to burn, to test silver/gold's purity and/or to make silver/gold pure from any impurities, from this later on the meaning of testing & affliction was created.

afridi220

Al-Tabari gives the meaning how it is understood by classical theology to mean in the Qu'ran, not directly what the original meaning was before the Qur'an.

"The word Fitnah means originally smelting of gold to check its purity, also to throw things into the fire to purify it from its rubbish."
Page I-55. Qur?an translation and commentary by Muhammed Ali, 2004 2nd edition. Page 15,

?Its basic meaning is to melt silver or gold in fire so that it gets pure (Taj Ul-roos), so Fitna means to test or examine by heating, or by temptation, trials, affliction or disease. It also means, sedition or deviation. It further means to show the reality of a thing. Al-Fattana means the touchstone on which gold or silver is rubbed to test its quality.?
Exposition of the Holy Qur?an, Mafhum Al-Qur?an by G.A. Parwez. 1990.

And lie melted it with fire, (T,) or put it into the fire, (S, Msb,) namely, gold, (T, S, Msb,) and silver, in order to separate, or distinguish, (T, Msb,) the bad from the good, (T,) or the good fromn the bad, (Msb,) or to see what was its goodness. (.)
Volume 6, page 118 Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane 2003 2nd reprint.

See online
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000118.pdf

The original meaning of Fatana is to burn, to test silver/gold's purity and/or to make silver/gold pure from any impurities, from this later on the meaning of testing & affliction was created.

Peace Brother Arnold

can you please read this one also

http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/obsessions.htm

ayman

Peace Arnold,

I enjoy seeing all the views being put up. One thing I noticed is how both sides make some exclusive statements. Edip makes his and Ayman also.

Thank you for your comments and it is good to see you participate in this important discussion.

If making exclusive statements means excluding the possibility that the count of 19 talked about in 7431 is ONLY a ?fitna?, in other words an "ayat"/sign or anything else then you are right and I am making an exclusive statement. Now what ?fitna? means is another question for which I am not making any exclusive statements.

On the other hand, Edip is excluding that the count of 19 is only a ?fitna? and he is making an exclusive statement that it is instead a sign (?ayat?). He is essentially completely disregarding the word ?fitna? in 7431 and replacing it with ?sign?/?ayat?. Unlike my non-exclusive approach to what ?fitna? could mean, by choosing the title of the debate as ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign? and leaving ?fitna? untranslated Edip has exposed his dogmatic approach and has cornered himself in an untenable position. To him it doesn?t matter what ?fitna? means. So unlike me, he has excluded you from any logical discussion on the meaning of the word ?fitna?. He doesn?t read the word ?fitna? in 7431 and he has abrogated it with the word sign/?ayat?.

As for the meaning of "fitna", even in all your suggested far and wide meanings, the word ?fitna? is never said to mean ?sign?. More on the meaning of ?fitna? later. I got to go now.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

And we didn't make the owners/companions/as-haba of the (burned)marking/fire/alnnari except those that control/mala-ikatan ; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA/purification/purifying method for those who have been unappreciative...

So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.

Peace Arnold,

What good an interlocking system can bring when the religion has been corrupted altogether? And if code19 purifies the whole quranic text would we then be able to get the same result for every matter we dispute? Does quran mention anything regarding how to purify quranic text using code19 or should we solve the puzzle according to our own liking, like we try to find the method of salat from quran?

arnoldyasin

Salaam Afridi,

Thanks for sharing the link. The author tries to present an exclusive interpretation, meaning his context reading is the only true possible one, I am more careful on this. Also his interpretation of fitna is his own understanding. I do not agree with its totality, nor with understanding Saqar as 'hell' in the traditional sense.

When I observe certain interesting occurences of 19 multiples, as a scientist I can't dismiss them. I do dismiss all the superstition and religious nonsense that is created around it. Also the zeal people attacking or defending it is to me an emotional and religious approach to the whole debate, obscuring the scientific which is needed to get a real objective answer.

Dear Ayman, I always appreciated your comments and ideas, but when it comes to this subject, many times I notice there is more focussed on the persons involved and how they act and think, then to the real facts or observations made in the long run. Sadly this is also, because to many amateurs and frauds have been, and are involved on the '19-side' whom many approach it as a means to salvation.

I will observe the debates and hope emotions are left aside.

arnoldyasin

Peace Arnold,

What good an interlocking system can bring when the religion has been corrupted altogether? And if code19 purifies the whole quranic text would we then be able to get the same result for every matter we dispute? Does quran mention anything regarding how to purify quranic text using code19 or should we solve the puzzle according to our own liking, like we try to find the method of salat from quran?

Peace brother,

The 'religion' has been corrupted due to wrong approaches, not by the text itself. As for certain outcomes of 19 that could be reliable, the debate must be between scientists to review a logical and rational result wherein all results and ideas are reflected. I think WE, you and me shouldn't do anything. These matters should be for specialists, not for people who aren't qualified for this.

It is like a cow, the farmer is only interested in getting the best milk, meat and leather out of the animal. Only a scientist is interested in the DNA, and is the only one qualified to research it because of his/her training. Because we know the DNA of the cow, doesn't make the cow more or less cow, it remains as it is. I believe the same counts for the Qur'an. Sadly we had to many mad scientists with Wikipedia knowledge screwing around.

afridi220

Peace Arnold,

Thank you for your comments and it is good to see you participate in this important discussion.

If making exclusive statements means excluding the possibility that the count of 19 talked about in 7431 is ONLY a ?fitna?, in other words an "ayat"/sign or anything else then you are right and I am making an exclusive statement. Now what ?fitna? means is another question for which I am not making any exclusive statements.

On the other hand, Edip is excluding that the count of 19 is only a ?fitna? and he is making an exclusive statement that it is instead a sign (?ayat?). He is essentially completely disregarding the word ?fitna? in 7431 and replacing it with ?sign?/?ayat?. Unlike my non-exclusive approach to what ?fitna? could mean, by choosing the title of the debate as ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign? and leaving ?fitna? untranslated Edip has exposed his dogmatic approach and has cornered himself in an untenable position. To him it doesn?t matter what ?fitna? means. So unlike me, he has excluded you from any logical discussion on the meaning of the word ?fitna?. He doesn?t read the word ?fitna? in 7431 and he has abrogated it with the word sign/?ayat?.

As for the meaning of "fitna", even in all your suggested far and wide meanings, the word ?fitna? is never said to mean ?sign?. More on the meaning of ?fitna? later. I got to go now.

Peace,

Ayman

Was it Bukhari or Khalifa who find extra versuse first i think khalif tried ti justified Bukhari hmm

http//www.quran.org/9128.htm

http//www.bahai-library.com/essays/nineteen.html
peace

belH

The Christians and Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran is removed through the number 19.

Peace,
Edip

Peace everyone
I want to clarify to Edip and all 19ers that most of us who reject the 19ers is because of the removing of 9-128 and 129; otherwise, I believe that one of the quarnic sign is Code 19.

Thank you and may God Lead the real Truth Seekers to the Ultimate Truth.

ayman

Peace Arnold,

Sorry for the delayed continuation of my response.

For example, to make Fitna to mean only trial/temptation, while this a more later developed meaning to my knowledge. Fatana means to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment.

It is highly unlikely that the meanings you gave are older given how extremely specific they are. Usually, etymology has its root in a general meaning that then branches out later into more specific ones. Have you checked the occurrences of ?fitna? in the great reading to see if in any of them it means ?to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment?? I checked all the occurrences and none of the contexts suggest those specific meanings. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the above specific meanings are suggested by the context.

For example, in 653 the past tense verb ?fatana? clearly means ?tested/tried? or ?tempted? and not ?purified gold? or ?burned rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment? and not even ?purified? or ?burned?. In the few instances in the great reading where the term ?fitna? means punishment, one can see that even when punishment can be the meaning, undergoing a difficult trial is still the common concept. This is the same way when in English one says ?this is a trying event? to mean this is a difficult or painful event. On the other hand, burning or purifying is not the common concept in all the other occurrences.

An-Nar means Fire, but also meant to mark something as was done with cattle, which were marked using red-hot heated stamps.

Again, this is a very specialized meaning. It is highly unlikely that it is an older meaning than the more generalized one. Again going through all the occurrences of the word ?nar? in the great reading, none of them suggests the meaning of ?mark?. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the meaning of ?mark? is suggested by the context (you can?t use 7431 as a circular argument).

Why for example can't the verse also says
7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions/as-haba of the (burned)marking/fire/alnnari except those that control/mala-ikatan ; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA/purification/purifying method for those who have been unappreciative...
So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.

You criticize exclusive statements but then you turn around and try to make the verse fit the idea of your exclusive statement that ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text?. You have essentially started out from this exclusive statement and worked backwards and spread your net wide to find any remote meanings such as ?purify? and ?mark? that would make 7431 fit this exclusive statement. Thus, you ignore the fact that the word ?quran? is not even mentioned at all in the entire chapter and what is mentioned are the unappreciative. So if you really believe that those are the correct meanings and you want to use them then you should say ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of those who have been unappreciative?. But this of course, doesn?t make any sense.

I agree with Ayman that the 19-code has become a religion on its own, but how people react to it isn't the touchstone, the only thing that counts if there is a proof for the claim or not. But to say all '19-ers' only care about 19 and loose focus on the Qur'an itself is a generalizing and thus wrong claim.

I disagree. 7431 is about how counting 19 is related to the people and there is no mention at all of the ?quran?/reading. So it is 100% about how people react. This is why Khalifa had to go all the way back to 744 and strain to make it appear that it is talking about the great reading being purified. Khalifa was not stupid and he probably tried 7431 but he knew that 7431 couldn?t be made to have anything to do with the great reading.

And Khalifa isn't also the real touchstone anymore. Can we obtain a sort of pattern with 19?

No, we absolutely can?t. Have you got a pattern yourself before asking such questions? I guarantee that the answer is no because you seem to me like an honest person. The only sort of pattern people claim is by conducting trial and error using various methods and hiding the failed trials and presenting the successful ones or copying the results of people who did so before them.

That is the question, leave the ' discoverer' out of this, since it almost the same method as how anti-islamists use the hadith-stories on the prophet Muhammed to discredit the Qur'an, saying; 'a murdering pedophile cannot be a prophet'.

There is no such thing as ?discoverer? because you and no one else have scientifically proven any discovery. Indeed as a person, I agree that we can leave Khalifa out. However, read my posts. I only bring Khalifa in and criticize him as a ?translator? because he messed up every single passage that he translated and where he claims that it is either about him or his invented Code 19. Are you saying that we shouldn?t criticize Yusufali and any translator in their capacity as professional translators?

What are Qur'anists claims on this? We say neglect the hadith and judge the Qur'an on the text itself. Same counts for 19, forget Khalifa and his methods, and just look at what evidence can be gained objectively, for or against.

But there is ZERO evidence for a Code 19 in the great reading. All the evidence is tied to the methods that Code 19 hunters use. Change the method and the code vanishes into thin air. So we certainly have to look at the methods. You are pushing for a scientific approach but you are ignoring the fact that ?method? is more important than ?result? in science. Take this advice from a real scientist METHOD IS IMPORTANT.

To say 19 is just a temptation is for me also a weird claim, since I cannot believe God plays tricks on people. There is no function in this and would create a philosophical contradiction with a rational God's image.

Look inside you and you will see that what you are saying is false. Are you saying that you have never been tempted your entire life? Who do you think gave you your wealth that is a temptation for you? Who do you think created beautiful women who are a temptation for you? Etc. The temptation is not a trick, it is a test and the test is rational. How we handle the test can be irrational but this irrationality is from us and has nothing to do with the god.

These discussions have lost their scientific objective merit. It is like watching Richard Dawkins and Alistair McGrath debating. Both representing the 2 extremes, wherein objectivity is lost due to emotions and attachement to the chosen side of the debate.

I think that you have to let go of your own emotional attachment to Code 19 first and present your own scientific evidence from an objective point of view before making any claims about scientific merit.

Al-Tabari gives the meaning how it is understood by classical theology to mean in the Qu'ran, not directly what the original meaning was before the Qur'an.
"The word Fitnah means originally smelting of gold to check its purity, also to throw things into the fire to purify it from its rubbish."
Page I-55. Qur?an translation and commentary by Muhammed Ali, 2004 2nd edition. Page 15,
?Its basic meaning is to melt silver or gold in fire so that it gets pure (Taj Ul-roos), so Fitna means to test or examine by heating, or by temptation, trials, affliction or disease. It also means, sedition or deviation. It further means to show the reality of a thing. Al-Fattana means the touchstone on which gold or silver is rubbed to test its quality.?
Exposition of the Holy Qur?an, Mafhum Al-Qur?an by G.A. Parwez. 1990.
And lie melted it with fire, (T,) or put it into the fire, (S, Msb,) namely, gold, (T, S, Msb,) and silver, in order to separate, or distinguish, (T, Msb,) the bad from the good, (T,) or the good fromn the bad, (Msb,) or to see what was its goodness. (.)
Volume 6, page 118 Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane 2003 2nd reprint.
See online
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000118.pdf
The original meaning of Fatana is to burn, to test silver/gold's purity and/or to make silver/gold pure from any impurities, from this later on the meaning of testing & affliction was created.

But you are not reading the definition from the dictionary carefully. Even the quotes that you brought make it clear that the meaning is to ?test?. How the testing is done (heating, temptation, afflictions) or why it is done (to distinguish or separate the good from the bad) is another matter that doesn?t change the basic and more general and clearly older meaning of ?test/trial?.

The 'religion' has been corrupted due to wrong approaches, not by the text itself. As for certain outcomes of 19 that could be reliable, the debate must be between scientists to review a logical and rational result wherein all results and ideas are reflected. I think WE, you and me shouldn't do anything. These matters should be for specialists, not for people who aren't qualified for this.

This settles it then. I am a scientist and I am ready to debate any other real scientist on this numerology of Code 19. Until then, you shouldn?t base believe in Code 19 numerology on your unscientific approach which ignores the methods and focuses on the results.

It is like a cow, the farmer is only interested in getting the best milk, meat and leather out of the animal. Only a scientist is interested in the DNA, and is the only one qualified to research it because of his/her training. Because we know the DNA of the cow, doesn't make the cow more or less cow, it remains as it is. I believe the same counts for the Qur'an. Sadly we had to many mad scientists with Wikipedia knowledge screwing around.

Your analogy is not scientific because DNA is an inherent property of the cow and cows are built from their DNA blueprint. On the other hand, you have not proven that Code 19 is an inherent property of the great reading. Also, the great reading certainly cannot be built starting from Code 19. A more appropriate analogy for Code 19 is someone claiming that when cows relieve themselves cow manure comes in multiples of 19 grams. So they conduct trial and error of weighing the cow manure and only present the successful trials where they got a 19 divisible manure weight and hide the ones where they didn?t get a 19 divisible manure weight. They then present this as scientific evidence to some na?ve people. Those people then turn around and lecture real scientists on how they should forget about the method!

PS If anyone thinks that my example is blasphemous then congratulations you are idolizing Code 19.

Peace,

Ayman

arnoldyasin

Peace Ayman,

It is highly unlikely that the meanings you gave are older given how extremely specific they are. Usually, etymology has its root in a general meaning that then branches out later into more specific ones. Have you checked the occurrences of ?fitna? in the great reading to see if in any of them it means ?to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment?? I checked all the occurrences and none of the contexts suggest those specific meanings. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the above specific meanings are suggested by the context.

For example, in 653 the past tense verb ?fatana? clearly means ?tested/tried? or ?tempted? and not ?purified gold? or ?burned rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment? and not even ?purified? or ?burned?. In the few instances in the great reading where the term ?fitna? means punishment, one can see that even when punishment can be the meaning, undergoing a difficult trial is still the common concept. This is the same way when in English one says ?this is a trying event? to mean this is a difficult or painful event. On the other hand, burning or purifying is not the common concept in all the other occurrences.

There are mutliple passages where purifying fits as the testing is meant to purify the true intentions from the false. When I have time, we can check some verses.

Again, this is a very specialized meaning. It is highly unlikely that it is an older meaning than the more generalized one. Again going through all the occurrences of the word ?nar? in the great reading, none of them suggests the meaning of ?mark?. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the meaning of ?mark? is suggested by the context (you can?t use 7431 as a circular argument).

Again there are mutliple verses that me refer to being marked with consequence, which is represented by fire burning away the potential for further development. But that discussion is for later.

You criticize exclusive statements but then you turn around and try to make the verse fit the idea of your exclusive statement that ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text?. You have essentially started out from this exclusive statement and worked backwards and spread your net wide to find any remote meanings such as ?purify? and ?mark? that would make 7431 fit this exclusive statement. Thus, you ignore the fact that the word ?quran? is not even mentioned at all in the entire chapter and what is mentioned are the unappreciative. So if you really believe that those are the correct meanings and you want to use them then you should say ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of those who have been unappreciative?. But this of course, doesn?t make any sense.

I brought it up in the discussion as there many possible meanings of the words in the verses involved, and I saw exclusive statements being made which only represented a limited view on the verses. As the post said, why for example can't it mean something like this? It is not an exclusive statement but a question. I hope you can see the difference and also the intention of the post instead of smelling a maybe 19 idea and then make accusations.

If my suggestion is correct or incorrect is something future reflection decides. Untill then I observe the discussion, but as always I take your comments seriously.

No, we absolutely can?t. Have you got a pattern yourself before asking such questions? I guarantee that the answer is no because you seem to me like an honest person. The only sort of pattern people claim is by conducting trial and error using various methods and hiding the failed trials and presenting the successful ones or copying the results of people who did so before them.

No, I haven't, I have only observed many claims and counter-arguments and deduce the best conclusion from there on. But I have seen that amateur-claims were used to refute the whole idea of a possibility of 19, which to me is a dishonest and unscientific way to debunk something.

There is no such thing as ?discoverer? because you and no one else have scientifically proven any discovery. Indeed as a person, I agree that we can leave Khalifa out. However, read my posts. I only bring Khalifa in and criticize him as a ?translator? because he messed up every single passage that he translated and where he claims that it is either about him or his invented Code 19. Are you saying that we shouldn?t criticize Yusufali and any translator in their capacity as professional translators?

Agreed.

But there is ZERO evidence for a Code 19 in the great reading. All the evidence is tied to the methods that Code 19 hunters use. Change the method and the code vanishes into thin air. So we certainly have to look at the methods. You are pushing for a scientific approach but you are ignoring the fact that ?method? is more important than ?result? in science. Take this advice from a real scientist METHOD IS IMPORTANT.

Hold your horses. I referred to Khalifa's methods as they are completely contradicting one another and he was a complete amateur. Till now I have only seen amateur claims being refuted and debunked. This was my point. I want to see a scientific test study where a main method could be created that give constant validate results. If this can't be produced, then it will be clear 19 is false. I never said method itself is not important. I have studied Biochemistry and Microbiology, so you aren't the only REAL scientist here.

So take the word from another real scientist To much emotion is involved here and amateur-claims used to debunk a whole concept. This is unscientific.

Look inside you and you will see that what you are saying is false. Are you saying that you have never been tempted your entire life? Who do you think gave you your wealth that is a temptation for you? Who do you think created beautiful women who are a temptation for you? Etc. The temptation is not a trick, it is a test and the test is rational. How we handle the test can be irrational but this irrationality is from us and has nothing to do with the god.

You translate the word as 'temptation', which I do not believe presents the term fatana correctly. Testing to purify the real intentions and potentials is a better rendition which also gives a different intention to the things involved. Wealth is a good and blessed thing when it is gained in the correct way and spend in the correct way. Easy roads to wealth using for example stealing is in reality a reflection of a lack of confidence and empathy and not having a faith in future results. It is a mix of pure survival instinct that directs a person into being dominant over others to be the strongest. It is a subconcious fear of shortage and to be low on the social scale.

My fiancee is breathtaking beautiful, but she is not a temptation for me. Other beautiful women are no real temptation as I am not interested in short gained results (dunya), I have learned to think in long term results (akhirat).

In both cases, the fitna is to learn to rise above the simple instincts of survival and direct them yourself instead of being directed by them.

Most people who believe in 19 believe it is a sort of path to salvation, thus it represents again a form of the inner desire of survival using the least amount of effort. This is always the main reason for people creating religion and the concept of salvation. This attracted all the loonies to it as they try to abuse it for their own inner need of being of importance, the so-called messenger/messiah syndrom. For them indeed it is a clear testing stone, as their lack of selfcontrol and confidence is showed by 19. On this agree with you.

I think that you have to let go of your own emotional attachment to Code 19 first and present your own scientific evidence from an objective point of view before making any claims about scientific merit.

I think I have shown the least amount of emotion in this discussion. You cannot deny the fact that no real specialist has been involved to give a real serious go to see if their is a scientific method to be created around 19. Only amateurs who are easy to debunk and attack.

I am no mathematician on a high level, so I'm careful to make any claims. This is why I am more focussed on the cosmology, philosophical and theological side of the Qur'an since I am trained in those professions as I have studied Biochemistry, Physics, Microbiology, Philosophy and Theology on college level.

This settles it then. I am a scientist and I am ready to debate any other real scientist on this numerology of Code 19. Until then, you shouldn?t base believe in Code 19 numerology on your unscientific approach which ignores the methods and focuses on the results.

Good, and I hope in the future we find another person with the same degrees in mathematics and Arabic language to investigate.

As for the rest, you do not know what I believe or what I base it on, so be more careful in your 'advices' as I never said results stand above method. This is what you believed after misreading my post due, what I believe is involved, your clear emotional bias to the whole subject. I have seen the same kneejerk responses with Edip on the opposite side.

If you dislike me sitting in the middle, this is not my problem. But do not try to twist it into being unscientific, since objectivity and openmindness with scepticism towards both sides is the scientific method.