Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
-
peace
Salam Everybody,
I would like to share a very interesting phenomen, which no body is giving attention to. Its the structure of the verses of the Quran and how it is balanced using the Even and the Odd
Definitions
• 1 even and odd
even number a number, which is divisible by 2
odd number a number, which is not divisible by 2• 2 homogenous and heterogenous
We define a Sura to be homogeneous, if the number of the sura is even and the number of verses in it is also even, or if the number of the sura is odd and the number of verses in it is also odd.
Otherwise the sura is heterogenous• 3 Suras of the Quran
There are 114 Suras in the Quran. The sum of numbers from 1-114 = 6555• 4 numbered verses in the Quran
There are 6234 numbered verses in the QuranThe phenomenons
• There are 60 Suras in the Quran, which have even number of verses.
These are divided into• 30 even sura numbers
• 30 odd sura numbers
• There are 54 Suras in the Quran, which have odd number of verses.
These are divided into• 27 even sura numbers
• 27 odd sura numbers
• There are 57 homogenous Suras and 57 heterogenous Suras in the Quran
• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the homogenous section is 6234 (compare with definition #4)
• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the heterogenous section is 6555 (compare with definition #3)
• The number of even Suras in the homogenous section = 30 = The number of odd Suras in the heterogenous section
• The number of odd Suras in the homogenous section = 27 = The number of even Suras in the heterogenous section
• The sum of Sura numbers in the homogenous section = 3303 = The sum of the numbered verses of the heterogenous section
• If we examine the two halves of the Quran (Suras 1-57 and Suras 58-114) we find
• The number of homogenous Suras in the first half = 29 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the second half
• The number of homogenous Suras in the second half = 28 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the first half
• The sum of the numbered verses in the first 19th chapter is 2346 and the sum of numbered verses of the Quran is 6234, and the 6234 is the 19th permutation of 2346
And today I've observed something amazing
If we examine the numbered verses of the Quran
7 286 200 176 120 165 206 75 127 109 123 111 43 52 99 128 111 110 98 135 112 78 118 64 77 227 93 88 69 60 34 30 73 54 45 83 182 88 75 85 54 53 89 59 37 35 38 29 18 45 60 49 62 55 78 96 29 22 24 13 14 11 11 18 12 12 30 52 52 44 28 28 20 56 40 31 50 40 46 42 29 19 36 25 22 17 19 26 30 20 15 21 11 8 8 19 5 8 8 11 11 8 3 9 5 4 7 3 6 3 5 4 5 6And for each number we see if the number following it is higher or lower and write H for higher and L for lower we will get the following string
HLLLHHLHLHLLHHHLLLHLLHLHHLLLLLLHLLHHLLHLLHLLLHLLHHLHLHHLLHLHL-HL-HH-LL-LHLLHLHLLLHLLLHHHLLHLL-HLH-H-LLHLLHLHLHLHHThe - means the number of verses wasn't increased nor decreased
We have in this string 61 L's and 45 H's (difference 16)
But if we see how many times it was switched from high to low (represented as HL or H-L) we'll find 32 switches
and if we see how many times it was switched from low to high (represented as LH or L-H) we'll find also 32 switches.
One can not escape the relation between 32 and 16Now to imagine the complexity of this structure, here is a task for people, who are interested in mathematics and/or programming, what we can just imagine solving it using arrays of integers.
? Find a prime number P
? Find N numbers, where each number has an index from 1-N and N is a multiple of P
? An index is homogeneous if the index is even and the number assigned to it is even, or if the index is odd and the number assigned to it is odd, otherwise its heterogeneous the number of homogeneous indices must be equal to heterogenic indices
? The even numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The odd numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The sum of indices from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? The sum of numbers from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? Even indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to odd indices in the heterogeneous section
? Odd indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to even indices in the heterogeneous section
? The sum of indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to the sum of numbers in the heterogeneous section
? The number of homogeneous indices in the first half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the second half of indices
? The number of homogeneous indices in the second half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the first half of indices
? The sum of the N numbers should be the P-th permutation of the sum of the number assigned to the first P indices
? For each number from the N numbers write the number
followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P
? For each number from the N numbers write the sum of numbers from 1 to this number followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by PThe 114 numbers given on this thread fulfill the requirements of this task for P=19
Best regards,
MohamedP.S. almost all information are taken from http//www.mucizeler.com/19lar/ciftveteksayi.htm (turkish language, however I don't speak turkish P)
-
Peace Ramon, everyone,
I completely agree with you. The key passage that Code 19 is founded on is 7431. It is not surprising that Khalifa grossly mistranslates this passage as we see below
KHALIFA We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.Khalifa mistranslates 7431 to make it appear as if "the number" is the reason why "the people of the book are convinced, the faith of the faithful is strengthened, etc.". Instead, the real reason is not ?the number? but it is that they see that "their count is only a trial/temptation for the unappreciative". Even Edip himself corrected Khalifa?s gross mistranslation. Please compare Khalifa?s distorted cause (underlined) and effect (bold) relationship with the correct cause and effect in Edip?s own translation during our earlier debate and all the translations below
EDIP We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their number to be ONLY A TRIAL/PUNISHMENT for the unappreciative
(1) to convince those who received the book,
(2) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(3) to remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as the believers, and
(4) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.YUSUFALI And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number ONLY AS A TRIAL for unbelievers,- in order that
(1) the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and
(2) the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that
(3) no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that
(4) those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?"
Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.LAYTH 7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number EXCEPT AS A TRIAL for those who have rejected, so that
(1) those who were given the Scripture would understand, and
(2) those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that
(3) those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that
(4) those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.Finally, my own translation
AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.
This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.
I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.
Peace,
Ayman
peace bravo peace
-
Ayman wrote
According to Edip?s logic, the god also provides the Bible Code numerologists with a winning lottery ticket of HITLER?s name encoded with EVIL, and many other future events that didn?t even happen until many centuries after the Bible but yet are ?coded? in there. Using Edip?s logic then this is more impressive than a mere number being divisible by 19. Unlike winning the lottery which is routinely accomplished by many people every year, how many of the billions of people of the past hundreds of years predicted that HITLER would be EVIL? Probably very few if any at all. So the probability is 1 in billions.
Well done!You have nailed it.
-
Finally, my own translation
AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.
This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.
I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.
Peace all,
I enjoy seeing all the views being put up. One thing I noticed is how both sides make some exclusive statements. Edip makes his and Ayman also.
For example, to make Fitna to mean only trial/temptation, while this a more later developed meaning to my knowledge. Fatana means to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment. An-Nar means Fire, but also meant to mark something as was done with cattle, which were marked using red-hot heated stamps. Why for example can't the verse also says
- And we didn't make the owners/companions/as-haba of the (burned)marking/fire/alnnari except those that control/mala-ikatan ; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA/purification/purifying method for those who have been unappreciative...
So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.
I agree with Ayman that the 19-code has become a religion on its own, but how people react to it isn't the touchstone, the only thing that counts if there is a proof for the claim or not. But to say all '19-ers' only care about 19 and loose focus on the Qur'an itself is a generalizing and thus wrong claim.
And Khalifa isn't also the real touchstone anymore. Can we obtain a sort of pattern with 19? That is the question, leave the ' discoverer' out of this, since it almost the same method as how anti-islamists use the hadith-stories on the prophet Muhammed to discredit the Qur'an, saying; 'a murdering pedophile cannot be a prophet'.
What are Qur'anists claims on this? We say neglect the hadith and judge the Qur'an on the text itself. Same counts for 19, forget Khalifa and his methods, and just look at what evidence can be gained objectively, for or against.
To say 19 is just a temptation is for me also a weird claim, since I cannot believe God plays tricks on people. There is no function in this and would create a philosophical contradiction with a rational God's image.
These discussions have lost their scientific objective merit. It is like watching Richard Dawkins and Alistair McGrath debating. Both representing the 2 extremes, wherein objectivity is lost due to emotions and attachement to the chosen side of the debate.
-
Peace every body
Ayman has not been able to produce even single simple one any body there to produce one.?2721230561002001150403104228010306840880690085
is multiple of 19Salam,
Those who disbelieve in the Remembrance when it comes to them -- and surely it is a Book Sublime;
falsehood comes not to it from before it nor from behind it; a sending down from One All-wise, All-laudable.
The GV of the two verses above is a multiple !
840104 8201040 4050 4005071030 90030805 4050 6301 21050104105 4050
1302930 101400105
301 707107 30204002 61505 31540 30401 213070020200 208020061
1307001050 150 = 19 x
442160431633705528423721595210688449500331642657 94952 916053 31733
163231584489563531963265264534238502121263796352642210635800032174052686850.0000Indeed no falsehood can enter it!
Hati
that640137030501
19082130501200
13014030205
640137030501704400540
130180400505130700105020802006
13010604001010050
130700105016400611302040026107414
13070010501140506111040501
630110200400121307001050
630110300400261304064050650
6301010063013070010508010100306254040200800
613020802006504017001120014130305
40501030011610541040501030011
64011070304035064200220130156
6401510130130700202001030302600200
6401370305011908213050120013014030205640137
03050170440054013018040050513070010502080200
61301060400101005013070010501640061130204002610741
4130700105011405061110405016301102004001213070010
5063011030040026130406405065063010100630130700105
0801010030625404020080061302080200650401700112001
413030540501030011610541040501030011640110703040350642002201301566401510130130700202001030302600200=
19x33691422657957411647632210594810685292842826476
324760002842790423160553319474236951589505947926526
368950006878952895600032173791580321442848984216053
231845321600264015847473894800687895289805321210736
9796337179213950684742138427931584477900052792765284
31621084895831684552843000058948112121337105805269268
7058107900157956000582647580792852643164745086323737
5270036852736896331715800640137030501190821305012001301403020564013703050170440
054013018040050513070010502080200613010604001010050130
7001050164006113020400261074141307001050114050611104050
16301102004001213070010506301103004002613040640506506301
01006301307001050801010030625404020080061302080200650401
7001120014130305405010300116105410405010300116401107030403
506420022013015664015101301307002020010303026002007431=7x
914481472144558316150017144716290029377162432928814914362875
7400572150186714435744002865900151485728715001867144357377151
59002914323010591615285864302007230157721451858717148573161528
58643757300429143230434377215215185858580430438572929715728615
17914860011437328868600092914528587428773290077214432858801505
86292871857309144438614862152028602875736662878716144724288600
014718608574296336661976401370305011908213050120013014030205640137030501704400540
13018040050513070010502080200613010604001010050130700105016400611
30204002610741413070010501140506111040501630110200400121307001050
630110300400261304064050650630101006301307001050801010030625404020
0800613020802006504017001120014130305405010300116105410405010300116401107030403506420022013015664015101301307002020010303026002007431=
951710914481472144558316150017144716290029377162432928814914362875
74005721501867144357440028659001514857287150018671443573771515900291
43230105916152858643020072301577214518587171485731615285864375730042
914323043437721521518585858043043857292971572861517914860011437328868
6000929145285874287732900772144328588015058629287185730914443861486215202860287573666287871614472428860001471860857429633
=
7x
951710914481472144558316150017144716290029377162432928814914362875
7400572150186714435744002865900151485728715001867144357377151590029
14323010591615285864302007230157721451858717148573161528586437573004
29143230434377215215185858580430438572929715728615179148600114373288
68600092914528587428773290077214432858801505862928718573091444386148
6215202860287573666287871614472428860001471860857429633http//y19.net/74-31.htm
First chapter in Quran "GR"
followed numer of verses , verse number, number of letter in each verse ,followed by every single letter Geometrical Value
is multiple of 19
http//creatorsignature.com/19key.jpghttp//creatorsignature.com/7key.jpg
Hati
discovered the writing whole chapter by using Geometrical Value of each letter from end to start without using any other number is Multiple of 19
http//creatorsignature.com/keyhati.jpg -
So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.
IPeace everybody
I like to see reponse to ttis part of Arnold.
Peace ) -
Al-Tabari gives the meaning how it is understood by classical theology to mean in the Qu'ran, not directly what the original meaning was before the Qur'an.
"The word Fitnah means originally smelting of gold to check its purity, also to throw things into the fire to purify it from its rubbish."
Page I-55. Quran translation and commentary by Muhammed Ali, 2004 2nd edition. Page 15,Its basic meaning is to melt silver or gold in fire so that it gets pure (Taj Ul-roos), so Fitna means to test or examine by heating, or by temptation, trials, affliction or disease. It also means, sedition or deviation. It further means to show the reality of a thing. Al-Fattana means the touchstone on which gold or silver is rubbed to test its quality.
Exposition of the Holy Quran, Mafhum Al-Quran by G.A. Parwez. 1990.And lie melted it with fire, (T,) or put it into the fire, (S, Msb,) namely, gold, (T, S, Msb,) and silver, in order to separate, or distinguish, (T, Msb,) the bad from the good, (T,) or the good fromn the bad, (Msb,) or to see what was its goodness. (.)
Volume 6, page 118 Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane 2003 2nd reprint.See online
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000118.pdfThe original meaning of Fatana is to burn, to test silver/gold's purity and/or to make silver/gold pure from any impurities, from this later on the meaning of testing & affliction was created.
-
Al-Tabari gives the meaning how it is understood by classical theology to mean in the Qu'ran, not directly what the original meaning was before the Qur'an.
"The word Fitnah means originally smelting of gold to check its purity, also to throw things into the fire to purify it from its rubbish."
Page I-55. Qur?an translation and commentary by Muhammed Ali, 2004 2nd edition. Page 15,?Its basic meaning is to melt silver or gold in fire so that it gets pure (Taj Ul-roos), so Fitna means to test or examine by heating, or by temptation, trials, affliction or disease. It also means, sedition or deviation. It further means to show the reality of a thing. Al-Fattana means the touchstone on which gold or silver is rubbed to test its quality.?
Exposition of the Holy Qur?an, Mafhum Al-Qur?an by G.A. Parwez. 1990.And lie melted it with fire, (T,) or put it into the fire, (S, Msb,) namely, gold, (T, S, Msb,) and silver, in order to separate, or distinguish, (T, Msb,) the bad from the good, (T,) or the good fromn the bad, (Msb,) or to see what was its goodness. (.)
Volume 6, page 118 Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane 2003 2nd reprint.See online
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000118.pdfThe original meaning of Fatana is to burn, to test silver/gold's purity and/or to make silver/gold pure from any impurities, from this later on the meaning of testing & affliction was created.
Peace Brother Arnold
can you please read this one also
http//www.inet.ba/~hardy/obsessions.htm
-
Peace Arnold,
I enjoy seeing all the views being put up. One thing I noticed is how both sides make some exclusive statements. Edip makes his and Ayman also.
Thank you for your comments and it is good to see you participate in this important discussion.
If making exclusive statements means excluding the possibility that the count of 19 talked about in 7431 is ONLY a ?fitna?, in other words an "ayat"/sign or anything else then you are right and I am making an exclusive statement. Now what ?fitna? means is another question for which I am not making any exclusive statements.
On the other hand, Edip is excluding that the count of 19 is only a ?fitna? and he is making an exclusive statement that it is instead a sign (?ayat?). He is essentially completely disregarding the word ?fitna? in 7431 and replacing it with ?sign?/?ayat?. Unlike my non-exclusive approach to what ?fitna? could mean, by choosing the title of the debate as ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign? and leaving ?fitna? untranslated Edip has exposed his dogmatic approach and has cornered himself in an untenable position. To him it doesn?t matter what ?fitna? means. So unlike me, he has excluded you from any logical discussion on the meaning of the word ?fitna?. He doesn?t read the word ?fitna? in 7431 and he has abrogated it with the word sign/?ayat?.
As for the meaning of "fitna", even in all your suggested far and wide meanings, the word ?fitna? is never said to mean ?sign?. More on the meaning of ?fitna? later. I got to go now.
Peace,
Ayman
-
- And we didn't make the owners/companions/as-haba of the (burned)marking/fire/alnnari except those that control/mala-ikatan ; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA/purification/purifying method for those who have been unappreciative...
So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.
Peace Arnold,
What good an interlocking system can bring when the religion has been corrupted altogether? And if code19 purifies the whole quranic text would we then be able to get the same result for every matter we dispute? Does quran mention anything regarding how to purify quranic text using code19 or should we solve the puzzle according to our own liking, like we try to find the method of salat from quran?
-
Salaam Afridi,
Thanks for sharing the link. The author tries to present an exclusive interpretation, meaning his context reading is the only true possible one, I am more careful on this. Also his interpretation of fitna is his own understanding. I do not agree with its totality, nor with understanding Saqar as 'hell' in the traditional sense.
When I observe certain interesting occurences of 19 multiples, as a scientist I can't dismiss them. I do dismiss all the superstition and religious nonsense that is created around it. Also the zeal people attacking or defending it is to me an emotional and religious approach to the whole debate, obscuring the scientific which is needed to get a real objective answer.
Dear Ayman, I always appreciated your comments and ideas, but when it comes to this subject, many times I notice there is more focussed on the persons involved and how they act and think, then to the real facts or observations made in the long run. Sadly this is also, because to many amateurs and frauds have been, and are involved on the '19-side' whom many approach it as a means to salvation.
I will observe the debates and hope emotions are left aside.
-
Peace Arnold,
What good an interlocking system can bring when the religion has been corrupted altogether? And if code19 purifies the whole quranic text would we then be able to get the same result for every matter we dispute? Does quran mention anything regarding how to purify quranic text using code19 or should we solve the puzzle according to our own liking, like we try to find the method of salat from quran?
Peace brother,
The 'religion' has been corrupted due to wrong approaches, not by the text itself. As for certain outcomes of 19 that could be reliable, the debate must be between scientists to review a logical and rational result wherein all results and ideas are reflected. I think WE, you and me shouldn't do anything. These matters should be for specialists, not for people who aren't qualified for this.
It is like a cow, the farmer is only interested in getting the best milk, meat and leather out of the animal. Only a scientist is interested in the DNA, and is the only one qualified to research it because of his/her training. Because we know the DNA of the cow, doesn't make the cow more or less cow, it remains as it is. I believe the same counts for the Qur'an. Sadly we had to many mad scientists with Wikipedia knowledge screwing around.
-
Peace Arnold,
Thank you for your comments and it is good to see you participate in this important discussion.
If making exclusive statements means excluding the possibility that the count of 19 talked about in 7431 is ONLY a ?fitna?, in other words an "ayat"/sign or anything else then you are right and I am making an exclusive statement. Now what ?fitna? means is another question for which I am not making any exclusive statements.
On the other hand, Edip is excluding that the count of 19 is only a ?fitna? and he is making an exclusive statement that it is instead a sign (?ayat?). He is essentially completely disregarding the word ?fitna? in 7431 and replacing it with ?sign?/?ayat?. Unlike my non-exclusive approach to what ?fitna? could mean, by choosing the title of the debate as ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign? and leaving ?fitna? untranslated Edip has exposed his dogmatic approach and has cornered himself in an untenable position. To him it doesn?t matter what ?fitna? means. So unlike me, he has excluded you from any logical discussion on the meaning of the word ?fitna?. He doesn?t read the word ?fitna? in 7431 and he has abrogated it with the word sign/?ayat?.
As for the meaning of "fitna", even in all your suggested far and wide meanings, the word ?fitna? is never said to mean ?sign?. More on the meaning of ?fitna? later. I got to go now.
Peace,
Ayman
Was it Bukhari or Khalifa who find extra versuse first i think khalif tried ti justified Bukhari hmm
http//www.quran.org/9128.htm
http//www.bahai-library.com/essays/nineteen.html
peace -
- The Christians and Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran is removed through the number 19.
Peace,
EdipPeace everyone
I want to clarify to Edip and all 19ers that most of us who reject the 19ers is because of the removing of 9-128 and 129; otherwise, I believe that one of the quarnic sign is Code 19.Thank you and may God Lead the real Truth Seekers to the Ultimate Truth.
-
Peace Arnold,
Sorry for the delayed continuation of my response.
For example, to make Fitna to mean only trial/temptation, while this a more later developed meaning to my knowledge. Fatana means to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment.
It is highly unlikely that the meanings you gave are older given how extremely specific they are. Usually, etymology has its root in a general meaning that then branches out later into more specific ones. Have you checked the occurrences of ?fitna? in the great reading to see if in any of them it means ?to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment?? I checked all the occurrences and none of the contexts suggest those specific meanings. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the above specific meanings are suggested by the context.
For example, in 653 the past tense verb ?fatana? clearly means ?tested/tried? or ?tempted? and not ?purified gold? or ?burned rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment? and not even ?purified? or ?burned?. In the few instances in the great reading where the term ?fitna? means punishment, one can see that even when punishment can be the meaning, undergoing a difficult trial is still the common concept. This is the same way when in English one says ?this is a trying event? to mean this is a difficult or painful event. On the other hand, burning or purifying is not the common concept in all the other occurrences.
An-Nar means Fire, but also meant to mark something as was done with cattle, which were marked using red-hot heated stamps.
Again, this is a very specialized meaning. It is highly unlikely that it is an older meaning than the more generalized one. Again going through all the occurrences of the word ?nar? in the great reading, none of them suggests the meaning of ?mark?. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the meaning of ?mark? is suggested by the context (you can?t use 7431 as a circular argument).
Why for example can't the verse also says
7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions/as-haba of the (burned)marking/fire/alnnari except those that control/mala-ikatan ; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA/purification/purifying method for those who have been unappreciative...
So it can be said the verse can thus indicate the 19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text. From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.You criticize exclusive statements but then you turn around and try to make the verse fit the idea of your exclusive statement that ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text?. You have essentially started out from this exclusive statement and worked backwards and spread your net wide to find any remote meanings such as ?purify? and ?mark? that would make 7431 fit this exclusive statement. Thus, you ignore the fact that the word ?quran? is not even mentioned at all in the entire chapter and what is mentioned are the unappreciative. So if you really believe that those are the correct meanings and you want to use them then you should say ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of those who have been unappreciative?. But this of course, doesn?t make any sense.
I agree with Ayman that the 19-code has become a religion on its own, but how people react to it isn't the touchstone, the only thing that counts if there is a proof for the claim or not. But to say all '19-ers' only care about 19 and loose focus on the Qur'an itself is a generalizing and thus wrong claim.
I disagree. 7431 is about how counting 19 is related to the people and there is no mention at all of the ?quran?/reading. So it is 100% about how people react. This is why Khalifa had to go all the way back to 744 and strain to make it appear that it is talking about the great reading being purified. Khalifa was not stupid and he probably tried 7431 but he knew that 7431 couldn?t be made to have anything to do with the great reading.
And Khalifa isn't also the real touchstone anymore. Can we obtain a sort of pattern with 19?
No, we absolutely can?t. Have you got a pattern yourself before asking such questions? I guarantee that the answer is no because you seem to me like an honest person. The only sort of pattern people claim is by conducting trial and error using various methods and hiding the failed trials and presenting the successful ones or copying the results of people who did so before them.
That is the question, leave the ' discoverer' out of this, since it almost the same method as how anti-islamists use the hadith-stories on the prophet Muhammed to discredit the Qur'an, saying; 'a murdering pedophile cannot be a prophet'.
There is no such thing as ?discoverer? because you and no one else have scientifically proven any discovery. Indeed as a person, I agree that we can leave Khalifa out. However, read my posts. I only bring Khalifa in and criticize him as a ?translator? because he messed up every single passage that he translated and where he claims that it is either about him or his invented Code 19. Are you saying that we shouldn?t criticize Yusufali and any translator in their capacity as professional translators?
What are Qur'anists claims on this? We say neglect the hadith and judge the Qur'an on the text itself. Same counts for 19, forget Khalifa and his methods, and just look at what evidence can be gained objectively, for or against.
But there is ZERO evidence for a Code 19 in the great reading. All the evidence is tied to the methods that Code 19 hunters use. Change the method and the code vanishes into thin air. So we certainly have to look at the methods. You are pushing for a scientific approach but you are ignoring the fact that ?method? is more important than ?result? in science. Take this advice from a real scientist METHOD IS IMPORTANT.
To say 19 is just a temptation is for me also a weird claim, since I cannot believe God plays tricks on people. There is no function in this and would create a philosophical contradiction with a rational God's image.
Look inside you and you will see that what you are saying is false. Are you saying that you have never been tempted your entire life? Who do you think gave you your wealth that is a temptation for you? Who do you think created beautiful women who are a temptation for you? Etc. The temptation is not a trick, it is a test and the test is rational. How we handle the test can be irrational but this irrationality is from us and has nothing to do with the god.
These discussions have lost their scientific objective merit. It is like watching Richard Dawkins and Alistair McGrath debating. Both representing the 2 extremes, wherein objectivity is lost due to emotions and attachement to the chosen side of the debate.
I think that you have to let go of your own emotional attachment to Code 19 first and present your own scientific evidence from an objective point of view before making any claims about scientific merit.
Al-Tabari gives the meaning how it is understood by classical theology to mean in the Qu'ran, not directly what the original meaning was before the Qur'an.
"The word Fitnah means originally smelting of gold to check its purity, also to throw things into the fire to purify it from its rubbish."
Page I-55. Qur?an translation and commentary by Muhammed Ali, 2004 2nd edition. Page 15,
?Its basic meaning is to melt silver or gold in fire so that it gets pure (Taj Ul-roos), so Fitna means to test or examine by heating, or by temptation, trials, affliction or disease. It also means, sedition or deviation. It further means to show the reality of a thing. Al-Fattana means the touchstone on which gold or silver is rubbed to test its quality.?
Exposition of the Holy Qur?an, Mafhum Al-Qur?an by G.A. Parwez. 1990.
And lie melted it with fire, (T,) or put it into the fire, (S, Msb,) namely, gold, (T, S, Msb,) and silver, in order to separate, or distinguish, (T, Msb,) the bad from the good, (T,) or the good fromn the bad, (Msb,) or to see what was its goodness. (.)
Volume 6, page 118 Arabic-English Lexicon by Edward William Lane 2003 2nd reprint.
See online
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume6/00000118.pdf
The original meaning of Fatana is to burn, to test silver/gold's purity and/or to make silver/gold pure from any impurities, from this later on the meaning of testing & affliction was created.But you are not reading the definition from the dictionary carefully. Even the quotes that you brought make it clear that the meaning is to ?test?. How the testing is done (heating, temptation, afflictions) or why it is done (to distinguish or separate the good from the bad) is another matter that doesn?t change the basic and more general and clearly older meaning of ?test/trial?.
The 'religion' has been corrupted due to wrong approaches, not by the text itself. As for certain outcomes of 19 that could be reliable, the debate must be between scientists to review a logical and rational result wherein all results and ideas are reflected. I think WE, you and me shouldn't do anything. These matters should be for specialists, not for people who aren't qualified for this.
This settles it then. I am a scientist and I am ready to debate any other real scientist on this numerology of Code 19. Until then, you shouldn?t base believe in Code 19 numerology on your unscientific approach which ignores the methods and focuses on the results.
It is like a cow, the farmer is only interested in getting the best milk, meat and leather out of the animal. Only a scientist is interested in the DNA, and is the only one qualified to research it because of his/her training. Because we know the DNA of the cow, doesn't make the cow more or less cow, it remains as it is. I believe the same counts for the Qur'an. Sadly we had to many mad scientists with Wikipedia knowledge screwing around.
Your analogy is not scientific because DNA is an inherent property of the cow and cows are built from their DNA blueprint. On the other hand, you have not proven that Code 19 is an inherent property of the great reading. Also, the great reading certainly cannot be built starting from Code 19. A more appropriate analogy for Code 19 is someone claiming that when cows relieve themselves cow manure comes in multiples of 19 grams. So they conduct trial and error of weighing the cow manure and only present the successful trials where they got a 19 divisible manure weight and hide the ones where they didn?t get a 19 divisible manure weight. They then present this as scientific evidence to some na?ve people. Those people then turn around and lecture real scientists on how they should forget about the method!
PS If anyone thinks that my example is blasphemous then congratulations you are idolizing Code 19.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Ayman,
It is highly unlikely that the meanings you gave are older given how extremely specific they are. Usually, etymology has its root in a general meaning that then branches out later into more specific ones. Have you checked the occurrences of ?fitna? in the great reading to see if in any of them it means ?to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment?? I checked all the occurrences and none of the contexts suggest those specific meanings. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the above specific meanings are suggested by the context.
For example, in 653 the past tense verb ?fatana? clearly means ?tested/tried? or ?tempted? and not ?purified gold? or ?burned rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment? and not even ?purified? or ?burned?. In the few instances in the great reading where the term ?fitna? means punishment, one can see that even when punishment can be the meaning, undergoing a difficult trial is still the common concept. This is the same way when in English one says ?this is a trying event? to mean this is a difficult or painful event. On the other hand, burning or purifying is not the common concept in all the other occurrences.
There are mutliple passages where purifying fits as the testing is meant to purify the true intentions from the false. When I have time, we can check some verses.
Again, this is a very specialized meaning. It is highly unlikely that it is an older meaning than the more generalized one. Again going through all the occurrences of the word ?nar? in the great reading, none of them suggests the meaning of ?mark?. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the meaning of ?mark? is suggested by the context (you can?t use 7431 as a circular argument).
Again there are mutliple verses that me refer to being marked with consequence, which is represented by fire burning away the potential for further development. But that discussion is for later.
You criticize exclusive statements but then you turn around and try to make the verse fit the idea of your exclusive statement that ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text?. You have essentially started out from this exclusive statement and worked backwards and spread your net wide to find any remote meanings such as ?purify? and ?mark? that would make 7431 fit this exclusive statement. Thus, you ignore the fact that the word ?quran? is not even mentioned at all in the entire chapter and what is mentioned are the unappreciative. So if you really believe that those are the correct meanings and you want to use them then you should say ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of those who have been unappreciative?. But this of course, doesn?t make any sense.
I brought it up in the discussion as there many possible meanings of the words in the verses involved, and I saw exclusive statements being made which only represented a limited view on the verses. As the post said, why for example can't it mean something like this? It is not an exclusive statement but a question. I hope you can see the difference and also the intention of the post instead of smelling a maybe 19 idea and then make accusations.
If my suggestion is correct or incorrect is something future reflection decides. Untill then I observe the discussion, but as always I take your comments seriously.
No, we absolutely can?t. Have you got a pattern yourself before asking such questions? I guarantee that the answer is no because you seem to me like an honest person. The only sort of pattern people claim is by conducting trial and error using various methods and hiding the failed trials and presenting the successful ones or copying the results of people who did so before them.
No, I haven't, I have only observed many claims and counter-arguments and deduce the best conclusion from there on. But I have seen that amateur-claims were used to refute the whole idea of a possibility of 19, which to me is a dishonest and unscientific way to debunk something.
There is no such thing as ?discoverer? because you and no one else have scientifically proven any discovery. Indeed as a person, I agree that we can leave Khalifa out. However, read my posts. I only bring Khalifa in and criticize him as a ?translator? because he messed up every single passage that he translated and where he claims that it is either about him or his invented Code 19. Are you saying that we shouldn?t criticize Yusufali and any translator in their capacity as professional translators?
Agreed.
But there is ZERO evidence for a Code 19 in the great reading. All the evidence is tied to the methods that Code 19 hunters use. Change the method and the code vanishes into thin air. So we certainly have to look at the methods. You are pushing for a scientific approach but you are ignoring the fact that ?method? is more important than ?result? in science. Take this advice from a real scientist METHOD IS IMPORTANT.
Hold your horses. I referred to Khalifa's methods as they are completely contradicting one another and he was a complete amateur. Till now I have only seen amateur claims being refuted and debunked. This was my point. I want to see a scientific test study where a main method could be created that give constant validate results. If this can't be produced, then it will be clear 19 is false. I never said method itself is not important. I have studied Biochemistry and Microbiology, so you aren't the only REAL scientist here.
So take the word from another real scientist To much emotion is involved here and amateur-claims used to debunk a whole concept. This is unscientific.
Look inside you and you will see that what you are saying is false. Are you saying that you have never been tempted your entire life? Who do you think gave you your wealth that is a temptation for you? Who do you think created beautiful women who are a temptation for you? Etc. The temptation is not a trick, it is a test and the test is rational. How we handle the test can be irrational but this irrationality is from us and has nothing to do with the god.
You translate the word as 'temptation', which I do not believe presents the term fatana correctly. Testing to purify the real intentions and potentials is a better rendition which also gives a different intention to the things involved. Wealth is a good and blessed thing when it is gained in the correct way and spend in the correct way. Easy roads to wealth using for example stealing is in reality a reflection of a lack of confidence and empathy and not having a faith in future results. It is a mix of pure survival instinct that directs a person into being dominant over others to be the strongest. It is a subconcious fear of shortage and to be low on the social scale.
My fiancee is breathtaking beautiful, but she is not a temptation for me. Other beautiful women are no real temptation as I am not interested in short gained results (dunya), I have learned to think in long term results (akhirat).
In both cases, the fitna is to learn to rise above the simple instincts of survival and direct them yourself instead of being directed by them.
Most people who believe in 19 believe it is a sort of path to salvation, thus it represents again a form of the inner desire of survival using the least amount of effort. This is always the main reason for people creating religion and the concept of salvation. This attracted all the loonies to it as they try to abuse it for their own inner need of being of importance, the so-called messenger/messiah syndrom. For them indeed it is a clear testing stone, as their lack of selfcontrol and confidence is showed by 19. On this agree with you.
I think that you have to let go of your own emotional attachment to Code 19 first and present your own scientific evidence from an objective point of view before making any claims about scientific merit.
I think I have shown the least amount of emotion in this discussion. You cannot deny the fact that no real specialist has been involved to give a real serious go to see if their is a scientific method to be created around 19. Only amateurs who are easy to debunk and attack.
I am no mathematician on a high level, so I'm careful to make any claims. This is why I am more focussed on the cosmology, philosophical and theological side of the Qur'an since I am trained in those professions as I have studied Biochemistry, Physics, Microbiology, Philosophy and Theology on college level.
This settles it then. I am a scientist and I am ready to debate any other real scientist on this numerology of Code 19. Until then, you shouldn?t base believe in Code 19 numerology on your unscientific approach which ignores the methods and focuses on the results.
Good, and I hope in the future we find another person with the same degrees in mathematics and Arabic language to investigate.
As for the rest, you do not know what I believe or what I base it on, so be more careful in your 'advices' as I never said results stand above method. This is what you believed after misreading my post due, what I believe is involved, your clear emotional bias to the whole subject. I have seen the same kneejerk responses with Edip on the opposite side.
If you dislike me sitting in the middle, this is not my problem. But do not try to twist it into being unscientific, since objectivity and openmindness with scepticism towards both sides is the scientific method.
-
Arnold said
So take the word from another real scientist To much emotion is involved here and amateur-claims used to debunk a whole concept. This is unscientific.You keep impressing upon others about you being a scientist.Why dont you produce something more for us to discern from Aymans post instead of making fanciful denial statments that doesnt sink .The analogy of your rebuttals are like composites that looks like a metal but floats on water.
-
what does 19 have to do wit numberology. Im a numberologist. From what I know is the number 19 is a karmic number.
What was Rashid full name and birthdate. Who knows, he may have the number 19 in his profile.
And again, if those two verses was removed, what harm would it really do, or what message will be missing from Quran?
And aymen said they use differnt methods, how many methods? How do you know that each method is not a key?
And also who is it for to protect the quran? Is it for us humans to protect it by removing them verses and the 19? Or is it for God to protect it?
-
what does 19 have to do wit numberology. Im a numberologist. From what I know is the number 19 is a karmic number.
What was Rashid full name and birthdate. Who knows, he may have the number 19 in his profile.
And again, if those two verses was removed, what harm would it really do, or what message will be missing from Quran?
And aymen said they use differnt methods, how many methods? How do you know that each method is not a key?
And also who is it for to protect the quran? Is it for us humans to protect it by removing them verses and the 19? Or is it for God to protect it?
Peace
It is protected by GODWe have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise