SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?
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peace all,
mmkhan,
"atraf" is plural, meaning 3 or more edges of daytime/nahar. In my view 20130 is an idiomatic expression meaning "all the time". To interpret it any other way leads to inconsistancies in timing (I tried many different interpretations and I have never read one that does not cause problems).
truthseeker,
"near/adjacent parts of the night" means 3 or more parts of the night. That is morning twilight, evening twilight and actual night. I discussed this in detail here http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7532.msg8991#msg8991
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Peace Siki,
POINT # 1
God uses different words to refer to the same thing sometimes in al-quran. For example, He calls those who believe "muslimeen" in 2278. Other places He uses the word "momineen". At some places He refers to "al-quran" as "al-furqaan" (2185), or "al-kitaab", or "al-hikmat".
peace truth seeker
Brother ! you need to benifit from a statement of mine posted in hot ramadhan which i copy down below , in response to your above quoted point.
quote.
Do you think God used this word , "Just casually" I think you guys have stayed in the forum long enough to witness , "That His choice of words is absoutely precise and Delibrate".The wisdom behind each usage, "sometimes we know, and some times we find" ! But is NEVER, NEVER CASUAL, and when we dont find (wisdom) "please keep striving to find" , because his words are balanced to perfection. unquote.
Moreover , kindly use the search function to find out numerous threads/discussions/opinions on the difference between the usage of Muslimeen and Momineen in Quran.
POINT # 2
"Duluk al-shams" starts as soon as the sun's lower border touches the horizon. The sun is still above horizon. A few minutes pass before the sun's upper border disappears below the horizon and that is when "layl"/night starts.
If God would have used this phrase then people would be breaking fast a few minutes earlier!
Brother rest assured , i precisely know the difference between dalukulshams and ghorubulshams.
You are bothered about few minutes, where as despite calling for layal ,people are breaking fast at plenty of minutes earlier
POINT # 3
If He had used precise terminology for breaking fast then we will have to break our fasts at a very precise time and no room for any delay, but by using "night" He gave us some leeway and we don't have to keep our eyes glued to the horizon to see the exact time of sunset which could have caused retinal damage and blindness! Mercy of God?
"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" (from 2185)
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The above logic is not worthy of your percieved intellect.
He uses a very precise marker for starting fast , when we dont need it , but when we are hungry/thirsty and require a precise marker to start eating, He does not use it? and according to you he gives us a vague time to test our patience and brains?
looks like you guys are finally blinded damaging your retinas by starring at Ghorobul shams for breaking fast, and hence cant see a clear commandment of layal. Where as, he does not want you to do that. That is why he has given you the layal marker.
Moreover do you ever go out and stare at horizon , looking for that first ray of whitness to stop eating in the morning ?POINT # 4
I agree that they are called "fajr" and "'isha" but they are still considered part of daytime because they are called the two edges of the daytime in 11114. They are also considered part of night because they are called the near parts of the night in 11114. These two times are where the daytime and night overlap.
According to your definitions, "two edges of the daytime (nahaar)" and "near parts of the night (layl)" in 11114 cannot refer to "fajr" or "'isha".
I think quranic names for the above mentioned overlapping times are very clear, Fajr, Isha, No matter from which end you hold the ear, layal starts after isha is finished.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
As explained earlier it's impossible to tell exactly when darkeness starts and will vary with each individual.
The start and stop of fasting is precise -- white thread of dawn to sunset.
The start eating marker is as precise/ or to say unprecise as the stop eating marker (explained properly in 2-185 for start of dawn) For 1400 years no one has ever dared to question HIM regarding its unprecision.
Moreover, where do you get this sunset from ?
peace
siki
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Salaaman Wakas,
"atraf" is plural, meaning 3 or more edges of daytime/nahar. In my view 20130 is an idiomatic expression meaning "all the time". To interpret it any other way leads to inconsistancies in timing (I tried many different interpretations and I have never read one that does not cause problems).
Thank you for your clarification brother . Instead of saying all the time, I prefer to say at all the edges of day whatever they might be. I think this is better. Right?
But do you find any more names of edges of Day and Night? Please let me know anyone knows.
Regards,
mmKhan -
Peace Siki,
I think quranic names for the above mentioned overlapping times are very clear, Fajr, Isha, No matter from which end you hold the ear, layal starts after isha is finished.
You are contradicting yourself here. You are admitting they are overlapping, so isha would be part of layl. The nahaar and layl overlap at two times, fajr and isha. That is apparent when you combine 11114 with 1778. It leaves no doubt that layl starts at sunset.
God Himself says many times that nahaar and layl overlap/merge (the verses were referenced earlier by both Ayman and me). I don't know why you still insist that they don't overlap!
If your definitions are true then they contradict with the verses where God says daytime and night overlap/merge and aso contradict with 11114 where the two edges of the day overlap with the near parts of the night. Your definitions imply that there are 6 or more salaats being referenced in 11114 and 1778, which makes no sense
2 salaats at two edges of the daytime, 2 salaats at the near parts of the night, fajr salaat, and isha salaat.
How can you take daylight from something which does not have daylight to start with? (see 3637) That does not mean daytime is also night because both have been distinguished from each other in al-quran but they also overlap. Hence night has some daylight in it after the sun sets, and that daylight is being referred to in 3637. When that daylight is removed from the night, it results in darkness.
Night - Daylight = Darkness, so
Night = Darkness + DaylightAs Nun has pointed out, how can we determine when exactly the darkness of the night starts and the daylight finishes? The varying moonlight depending on the phases, the light of stars, and whether it is cloudy or not, can introduce varying grades of darkness. Therefore, darkness would be a very imprecise marker. The marker to break fast is very precise. It is at the start of the night which is right after sunset, because isha is part of layl. This issue of layl and nahaar is one of the very few times I find myself agreeing with Nun.
May God introduce some light in the darkness of your interpretation
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Peace Siki,
You are contradicting yourself here. You are admitting they are overlapping, so isha would be part of layl. The nahaar and layl overlap at two times, fajr and isha. That is apparent when you combine 11114 with 1778. It leaves no doubt that layl starts at sunset.
God Himself says many times that nahaar and layl overlap/merge (the verses were referenced earlier by both Ayman and me). I don't know why you still insist that they don't overlap!
Salam truth seeker!
I think you are not reading my posts, where did i say or insist that they dont overlap?
( I wouldnt waste space to recopy from my old posts to show you , that all along i have been saying that the day and night merge / overlap/coil at dawn and isha time. i am sure you can scroll back and find for yourself )You are not understanding that God has assigned "names" to these overlapping periods, which contain both night and day, 'Fajar", and "Isha", in quran. Please make an honest effort to understand this.
If your definitions are true then they contradict with the verses where God says daytime and night overlap/merge and aso contradict with 11114 where the two edges of the day overlap with the near parts of the night. Your definitions imply that there are 6 or more salaats being referenced in 11114 and 1778, which makes no sense
2 salaats at two edges of the daytime, 2 salaats at the near parts of the night, fajr salaat, and isha salaat.I never said nor even remotely think that there are 6 salats.
I think you are not understanding 11-114 properly. This ayaha is explaining or bounding the period for fajr and isha prayer. They are to be completed in the time periods bounded by edges of the day in the near parts of the night.
How can you take daylight from something which does not have daylight to start with? (see 3637) That does not mean daytime is also night because both have been distinguished from each other in al-quran but they also overlap. Hence night has some daylight in it after the sun sets, and that daylight is being referred to in 3637. When that daylight is removed from the night, it results in darkness.
Night - Daylight = Darkness, so
Night = Darkness + Daylightlets paint two circles,one with Green and the other with blue which at one place overlap too ,You want to call the overlaping area as green , and me as blue.
We both would be technically right in our statements, because, "both do contain the either color". But He in his book has given a new name to this overlaping area, which is neither blue, nor green, but is Yellow and hence calls it so.
When he assigns this overlap a new name, He puts an end to this confusion.As Nun has pointed out, how can we determine when exactly the darkness of the night starts and the daylight finishes? The varying moonlight depending on the phases, the light of stars, and whether it is cloudy or not, can introduce varying grades of darkness. Therefore, darkness would be a very imprecise marker. The marker to break fast is very precise. It is at the start of the night which is right after sunset, because isha is part of layl. This issue of layl and nahaar is one of the very few times I find myself agreeing with Nun.
I think , i answered the above earlier, but i suppose you failed to grasp the answer, Ok let me explain;
If we take layal at last light, then the marker is same as explained in 2-187, which is "when you start to disinguish first ray of light from darkness of night."
So in the evening when light retreats/diminish, and darkness starts to take over, and finally when one can "No more" find, or disinguish any ray of the light from darkness, That is the end of overlapping time(isha), and we can say that Layl has started.
And you know, by objecting/finding faults with this marker , You are blaming Him , for His "start of Fajr marker" indirectly,which He has clearly commanded in 2-187, to be used, for starting fast. I hope you understand this.
May God introduce some light in the darkness of your interpretation
Thanks ,I truely appreciate the above comment of yours, handshake " Ameen"
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
I think you are not reading my posts, where did i say or insist that they dont overlap?
( I wouldnt waste space to recopy from my old posts to show you , that all along i have been saying that the day and night merge / overlap/coil at dawn and isha time. i am sure you can scroll back and find for yourself )You are not understanding that God has assigned "names" to these overlapping periods, which contain both night and day, 'Fajar", and "Isha", in quran. Please make an honest effort to understand this.
I never said nor even remotely think that there are 6 salats.
I think you are not understanding 11-114 properly. This ayaha is explaining or bounding the period for fajr and isha prayer. They are to be completed in the time periods bounded by edges of the day in the near parts of the night.
You are admitting yourself that nahaar/daytime and layl/night overlap. You are right that al-quran calls these times of overlap "fajr" and "isha". The fact remains that they are still parts of layl/night, for example in 11114 we hear that we should establish salat at the near parts of layl/night, and you acknowledge that one of near parts of night is isha.
THEREFORE, BECAUSE ISHA IS PART OF NIGHT, NIGHT STARTS AT SUNSET.
Night has many parts, for example isha, ghassak/darkness, tahajjud, fajr, but that does not mean that each part is not night. According to 1778, sunset to darkness of layl refers to same time period as one of the near parts of night, so sunset onwards is part of night, therefore night starts at sunset.
I think , i answered the above earlier, but i suppose you failed to grasp the answer, Ok let me explain;
If we take layal at last light, then the marker is same as explained in 2-187, which is "when you start to disinguish first ray of light from darkness of night."
So in the evening when light retreats/diminish, and darkness starts to take over, and finally when one can "No more" find, or disinguish any ray of the light from darkness, That is the end of overlapping time(isha), and we can say that Layl has started.
And you know, by objecting/finding faults with this marker , You are blaming Him , for His "start of Fajr marker" indirectly, which He has clearly commanded in 2-187, to be used, for starting fast. I hope you understand this.
The precise time to start fast has been clearly elaborated as when the white thread can be distinguished from the black, but no such terminology has been used for the time to break fast. If night just means darkness, then according to quranic terminology, how will you determine exactly when darkness has started?
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Peace Siki,
You are admitting yourself that nahaar/daytime and layl/night overlap. You are right that al-quran calls these times of overlap "fajr" and "isha". The fact remains that they are still parts of layl/night, for example in 11114 we hear that we should establish salat at the near parts of layl/night, and you acknowledge that one of near parts of night is isha.
THEREFORE, BECAUSE ISHA IS PART OF NIGHT, NIGHT STARTS AT SUNSET.
Night has many parts, for example isha, ghassak/darkness, tahajjud, fajr, but that does not mean that each part is not night. According to 1778, sunset to darkness of layl refers to same time period as one of the near parts of night, so sunset onwards is part of night, therefore night starts at sunset.
The precise time to start fast has been clearly elaborated as when the white thread can be distinguished from the black, but no such terminology has been used for the time to break fast. If night just means darkness, then according to quranic terminology, how will you determine exactly when darkness has started?
Truthseeker, salam
As I said earlier , that there are evidence which could be interpreted either way, but the argument which helped me form my opinion, is the "Ghorubul shams issue", and uptill now i have not come across any evidence which could effectively nullify this point.
I am most definitely keeping my options open , and looking for any new evidence from the Quran to nail this issue. But till then i am 95% sure that it is last light where we should terminate fasting, and am 100% sure that it is not sun set , Because what ever little I know HIM , HE would have definitely used this precise MARKER , had HE meant for us to break fast at Ghorubul shams. Specially when HE has repeatedly used this term/marker in Quran.
peacesiki
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(20130)
One more point to be taken care of is Atraaf AlNahaar - that means The edges of the Day. And every edge got a different name like . Does night also got edges? I found only one i.e., Sahar. Please let me know if you find any more in Day or Night.
I think we have only two "extended" times Before sunrise, extended to the early hours of the day edges of day, i.e before sunrise, sunrise itself and immediately after it.
Same thing with Aanaa'i allail (aanaa' is also plural) before sunset and extended to the hours of night. Before sunset to immediately after sunset is the ishaa'. I think sunset is completely different from lail, albeit merged in it
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Peace Siki,
This is what it boils down to
You have already admitted that "isha" is "part of night" based on 11114. Do you mean to say that "part of night" is not "night"? Isha starts at duluk al-shams (177---> Isha is part of night (11114) ---> Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
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Peace Siki,
This is what it boils down to
You have already admitted that "isha" is "part of night" based on 11114. Do you mean to say that "part of night" is not "night"? Isha starts at duluk al-shams (177---> Isha is part of night (11114) ---> Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
peace
Circular argument,
I say once again , we cannot break fast at sun set, because HE has not used the term "Ghouroub ul shams/ Dalukul sham" here, when HE has uses this term repeatedly in Quran elsewhere.
siki
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Peace Siki,
It is not circular. It is a mathematical/logical equation
"Duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" (from 177 = "zulafan min al-layl" (from 11114)
Therefore, "duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" is a subset/part of "layl", because it is included in near parts of the night. Before "duluk al-shams" is obviously "nahaar" only.
Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
Using same logic
"Duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" = "taraf al-nahaar"
Therefore, "ghassaq al-layl" is a subset/part of "nahaar", because it is one of the two edges of the daytime mentioned in 11114. After "ghassaq al-layl" is obviously "layl" only.
Therefore, day ends at ghassaq al-layl.
Deductive reasoning by combining 1778 and 11114 shows that God indeed has given a precise marker for start of layl/night, which is "duluk al-shams".
Ask any mathematics/logic professor about this, and he/she will say the same. Try it )
I have presented the clearest proof that night starts at "duluk al-shams"/rubbing of the sun with the horizon at the time of sunset, and the readers can make up their own minds. In the end only God guides whom He wills. No further comments from me on this issue.
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Peace Siki,
It is not circular. It is a mathematical/logical equation
Truth seeker salam
Looks like you do not have any answer to Ghorubul shams issue,
here is another one,
11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?
siki
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Ask any mathematics/logic professor about this, and he/she will say the same. Try it
Oh , I thought God didn't need the help of Mathematics or logic professor to decipher the time of breaking fast for his creation , specially when , He had Ghorub ul shams created, and available ;D
siki
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Peace siki,
here is another one,
11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?
Qaloo ya lootu inna rusulu rabbika lan yasiloo ilayka faasri bi-ahlika biqitAAin mina allayli wala yaltafit minkum ahadun illa imraataka innahu museebuha ma asabahum inna mawAAidahumu alssubhu alaysa alssubhu biqareebin
1181 They said "You Lot that we (are) your Lord's messengers, they will never/not reach to you, so move/travel with your family/relation/people with parts/portions from the night, and no one of you turns around except your woman (wife), that it what struck/hit/marked them is striking/hitting/marking her, that their appointment (is) the morning/day break, is not the morning/daybreak with near/close?"Faasri bi-ahlika biqitAAin mina allayli waittabiAA adbarahum wala yaltafit minkum ahadun waimdoo haythu tu/maroona
1565 So move/travel/depart at night with your family/people with parts/portions from the night and follow their backs/ends; and no one from you turn around, and proceed/complete where/when you are being ordered/commanded.Which parts/portions of the night?
If nights have parts/portions then obviously travel during the darkest part of the night.
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Dear Nun salam
I agree that translation (PM's) is wrong by translating "Biqittaunn" as cover , where as it should be , "A part" , or the "Portion".
But, still it does not say "the dark portion", Biqattaunn ul lail , means to covey , "Any selected part of the nite",
And it was left to the discretion of lot (pbuh)to choose the time, and convey to his peeple accordingly. And he would have been well within his rights to pick up a time/ part/portion, soon after sun set, which was obviously not what God intended.
OK , Not satisfied yet ? Have another one,
Here God commands Moses to do the same , for the same purpose , and this time NO such portion / time /part is mentioned.
Fasiiree baiabdi lailleen, innakum Muttabaoon"
44-23 Allah said, `Take MY servants away by night; for you will surely be pursued.
peace
siki
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Salaaman Siki,
Truth seeker salam
Looks like you do not have any answer to Ghorubul shams issue,
here is another one,
11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?
siki
Very well quoted. MashaAllah.
May Allah help us understand the correct path.
Regards,
mmKhan -
It has been good two weeks that any body has posted any argument in favour of terminating fast at sun set, so should we think that this matter is settled for good? in favour of Lail , not being at sun set , but after when it is relatively Dark?
Any body having any valid argument from the book is still welcome to come up and contest.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
It has been good two weeks that any body has posted any argument in favour of terminating fast at sun set, so should we think that this matter is settled for good? in favour of Lail , not being at sun set , but after when it is relatively Dark?
Any body having any valid argument from the book is still welcome to come up and contest.
peace
siki
It has been clearly proven and settled that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams" according to al-quran. You can, however, continue to believe whatever you wish. There is no compulsion in deen and we will all be accountable for our minds and actions.
Just look at your own quote. "Relatively dark" is one of the vaguest terms I have heard. I challenge you to define precisely what "relatively dark" is according to al-quran. Al-quran is precise and "duluk al-shams" as the marker for start of night is very precise. Cross referencing 11114 with 1778 clearly proves that layl/night starts at duluk al-shams. It is a no brainer. No further comments from me on this issue. You can have the last word but that does not mean you are correct. You are usually sharp but I am disappointed with you on this issue. (
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Peace Siki,
It has been clearly proven and settled that night/layl starts at "duluk al-shams" according to al-quran. You can, however continue to believe whatever you wish. There is no compulsion in religion and we will all be accountable for our minds and actions.
salam,
i ususally break my fast about 15-20 minutes after sunset when there is no more redness in the sky, what do you think
