SunDown Or Last Sun's Rays Out?
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Peace Siki,
I think you are not reading my posts, where did i say or insist that they dont overlap?
( I wouldnt waste space to recopy from my old posts to show you , that all along i have been saying that the day and night merge / overlap/coil at dawn and isha time. i am sure you can scroll back and find for yourself )You are not understanding that God has assigned "names" to these overlapping periods, which contain both night and day, 'Fajar", and "Isha", in quran. Please make an honest effort to understand this.
I never said nor even remotely think that there are 6 salats.
I think you are not understanding 11-114 properly. This ayaha is explaining or bounding the period for fajr and isha prayer. They are to be completed in the time periods bounded by edges of the day in the near parts of the night.
You are admitting yourself that nahaar/daytime and layl/night overlap. You are right that al-quran calls these times of overlap "fajr" and "isha". The fact remains that they are still parts of layl/night, for example in 11114 we hear that we should establish salat at the near parts of layl/night, and you acknowledge that one of near parts of night is isha.
THEREFORE, BECAUSE ISHA IS PART OF NIGHT, NIGHT STARTS AT SUNSET.
Night has many parts, for example isha, ghassak/darkness, tahajjud, fajr, but that does not mean that each part is not night. According to 1778, sunset to darkness of layl refers to same time period as one of the near parts of night, so sunset onwards is part of night, therefore night starts at sunset.
I think , i answered the above earlier, but i suppose you failed to grasp the answer, Ok let me explain;
If we take layal at last light, then the marker is same as explained in 2-187, which is "when you start to disinguish first ray of light from darkness of night."
So in the evening when light retreats/diminish, and darkness starts to take over, and finally when one can "No more" find, or disinguish any ray of the light from darkness, That is the end of overlapping time(isha), and we can say that Layl has started.
And you know, by objecting/finding faults with this marker , You are blaming Him , for His "start of Fajr marker" indirectly, which He has clearly commanded in 2-187, to be used, for starting fast. I hope you understand this.
The precise time to start fast has been clearly elaborated as when the white thread can be distinguished from the black, but no such terminology has been used for the time to break fast. If night just means darkness, then according to quranic terminology, how will you determine exactly when darkness has started?
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Peace Siki,
You are admitting yourself that nahaar/daytime and layl/night overlap. You are right that al-quran calls these times of overlap "fajr" and "isha". The fact remains that they are still parts of layl/night, for example in 11114 we hear that we should establish salat at the near parts of layl/night, and you acknowledge that one of near parts of night is isha.
THEREFORE, BECAUSE ISHA IS PART OF NIGHT, NIGHT STARTS AT SUNSET.
Night has many parts, for example isha, ghassak/darkness, tahajjud, fajr, but that does not mean that each part is not night. According to 1778, sunset to darkness of layl refers to same time period as one of the near parts of night, so sunset onwards is part of night, therefore night starts at sunset.
The precise time to start fast has been clearly elaborated as when the white thread can be distinguished from the black, but no such terminology has been used for the time to break fast. If night just means darkness, then according to quranic terminology, how will you determine exactly when darkness has started?
Truthseeker, salam
As I said earlier , that there are evidence which could be interpreted either way, but the argument which helped me form my opinion, is the "Ghorubul shams issue", and uptill now i have not come across any evidence which could effectively nullify this point.
I am most definitely keeping my options open , and looking for any new evidence from the Quran to nail this issue. But till then i am 95% sure that it is last light where we should terminate fasting, and am 100% sure that it is not sun set , Because what ever little I know HIM , HE would have definitely used this precise MARKER , had HE meant for us to break fast at Ghorubul shams. Specially when HE has repeatedly used this term/marker in Quran.
peacesiki
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(20130)
One more point to be taken care of is Atraaf AlNahaar - that means The edges of the Day. And every edge got a different name like . Does night also got edges? I found only one i.e., Sahar. Please let me know if you find any more in Day or Night.
I think we have only two "extended" times Before sunrise, extended to the early hours of the day edges of day, i.e before sunrise, sunrise itself and immediately after it.
Same thing with Aanaa'i allail (aanaa' is also plural) before sunset and extended to the hours of night. Before sunset to immediately after sunset is the ishaa'. I think sunset is completely different from lail, albeit merged in it
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Peace Siki,
This is what it boils down to
You have already admitted that "isha" is "part of night" based on 11114. Do you mean to say that "part of night" is not "night"? Isha starts at duluk al-shams (177---> Isha is part of night (11114) ---> Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
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Peace Siki,
This is what it boils down to
You have already admitted that "isha" is "part of night" based on 11114. Do you mean to say that "part of night" is not "night"? Isha starts at duluk al-shams (177---> Isha is part of night (11114) ---> Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
peace
Circular argument,
I say once again , we cannot break fast at sun set, because HE has not used the term "Ghouroub ul shams/ Dalukul sham" here, when HE has uses this term repeatedly in Quran elsewhere.
siki
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Peace Siki,
It is not circular. It is a mathematical/logical equation
"Duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" (from 177 = "zulafan min al-layl" (from 11114)
Therefore, "duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" is a subset/part of "layl", because it is included in near parts of the night. Before "duluk al-shams" is obviously "nahaar" only.
Therefore, night starts at duluk al-shams.
Using same logic
"Duluk al-shams ila ghassaq al-layl" = "taraf al-nahaar"
Therefore, "ghassaq al-layl" is a subset/part of "nahaar", because it is one of the two edges of the daytime mentioned in 11114. After "ghassaq al-layl" is obviously "layl" only.
Therefore, day ends at ghassaq al-layl.
Deductive reasoning by combining 1778 and 11114 shows that God indeed has given a precise marker for start of layl/night, which is "duluk al-shams".
Ask any mathematics/logic professor about this, and he/she will say the same. Try it )
I have presented the clearest proof that night starts at "duluk al-shams"/rubbing of the sun with the horizon at the time of sunset, and the readers can make up their own minds. In the end only God guides whom He wills. No further comments from me on this issue.
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Peace Siki,
It is not circular. It is a mathematical/logical equation
Truth seeker salam
Looks like you do not have any answer to Ghorubul shams issue,
here is another one,
11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?
siki
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Ask any mathematics/logic professor about this, and he/she will say the same. Try it
Oh , I thought God didn't need the help of Mathematics or logic professor to decipher the time of breaking fast for his creation , specially when , He had Ghorub ul shams created, and available ;D
siki
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Peace siki,
here is another one,
11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?
Qaloo ya lootu inna rusulu rabbika lan yasiloo ilayka faasri bi-ahlika biqitAAin mina allayli wala yaltafit minkum ahadun illa imraataka innahu museebuha ma asabahum inna mawAAidahumu alssubhu alaysa alssubhu biqareebin
1181 They said "You Lot that we (are) your Lord's messengers, they will never/not reach to you, so move/travel with your family/relation/people with parts/portions from the night, and no one of you turns around except your woman (wife), that it what struck/hit/marked them is striking/hitting/marking her, that their appointment (is) the morning/day break, is not the morning/daybreak with near/close?"Faasri bi-ahlika biqitAAin mina allayli waittabiAA adbarahum wala yaltafit minkum ahadun waimdoo haythu tu/maroona
1565 So move/travel/depart at night with your family/people with parts/portions from the night and follow their backs/ends; and no one from you turn around, and proceed/complete where/when you are being ordered/commanded.Which parts/portions of the night?
If nights have parts/portions then obviously travel during the darkest part of the night.
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Dear Nun salam
I agree that translation (PM's) is wrong by translating "Biqittaunn" as cover , where as it should be , "A part" , or the "Portion".
But, still it does not say "the dark portion", Biqattaunn ul lail , means to covey , "Any selected part of the nite",
And it was left to the discretion of lot (pbuh)to choose the time, and convey to his peeple accordingly. And he would have been well within his rights to pick up a time/ part/portion, soon after sun set, which was obviously not what God intended.
OK , Not satisfied yet ? Have another one,
Here God commands Moses to do the same , for the same purpose , and this time NO such portion / time /part is mentioned.
Fasiiree baiabdi lailleen, innakum Muttabaoon"
44-23 Allah said, `Take MY servants away by night; for you will surely be pursued.
peace
siki
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Salaaman Siki,
Truth seeker salam
Looks like you do not have any answer to Ghorubul shams issue,
here is another one,
11-81 They said "O Lot, we are your Lord's messengers; they will not be able to harm you, so travel with your family during the cover of the night (layal) and let not any of you look back except for your wife, she will be afflicted with what they will be afflicted. Their appointed time will be the morning. Is the morning not near?"
If these guys tried to leave at, or soon after sun set , as per your definition of the night, Ah you know their demise?
siki
Very well quoted. MashaAllah.
May Allah help us understand the correct path.
Regards,
mmKhan -
It has been good two weeks that any body has posted any argument in favour of terminating fast at sun set, so should we think that this matter is settled for good? in favour of Lail , not being at sun set , but after when it is relatively Dark?
Any body having any valid argument from the book is still welcome to come up and contest.
peace
siki
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Peace Siki,
It has been good two weeks that any body has posted any argument in favour of terminating fast at sun set, so should we think that this matter is settled for good? in favour of Lail , not being at sun set , but after when it is relatively Dark?
Any body having any valid argument from the book is still welcome to come up and contest.
peace
siki
It has been clearly proven and settled that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams" according to al-quran. You can, however, continue to believe whatever you wish. There is no compulsion in deen and we will all be accountable for our minds and actions.
Just look at your own quote. "Relatively dark" is one of the vaguest terms I have heard. I challenge you to define precisely what "relatively dark" is according to al-quran. Al-quran is precise and "duluk al-shams" as the marker for start of night is very precise. Cross referencing 11114 with 1778 clearly proves that layl/night starts at duluk al-shams. It is a no brainer. No further comments from me on this issue. You can have the last word but that does not mean you are correct. You are usually sharp but I am disappointed with you on this issue. (
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Peace Siki,
It has been clearly proven and settled that night/layl starts at "duluk al-shams" according to al-quran. You can, however continue to believe whatever you wish. There is no compulsion in religion and we will all be accountable for our minds and actions.
salam,
i ususally break my fast about 15-20 minutes after sunset when there is no more redness in the sky, what do you think -
Peace Anna,
salam,
i ususally break my fast about 15-20 minutes after sunset when there is no more redness in the sky, what do you thinkThere is no compulsion in deen and you can do whatever you wish. If you want to follow al-quran, however, it is crystal clear that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams"/setting of the sun. Cross reference 11114 and 1778 and use your God given mind/logic. Also please go through the entire thread for further proofs. May God guide us to the truth.
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Peace Anna,
There is no compulsion in deen and you can do whatever you wish. If you want to follow al-quran, however, it is crystal clear that layl/night starts at "duluk al-shams"/setting of the sun. Cross reference 11114 and 1778 and use your God given mind/logic. Also please go through the entire thread for further proofs. May God guide us to the truth.
salam,
thank you i know there is no complusion in deen, but you are saying that "duluk lshamis" is the setting of the sun, so if layl begins at that time why did god not say this in the aya concering fasting, why did he say till night why did he not say til duluk lshamis,
and in the aya 1778 he is saying praying from sunset into the night, not into the middle or end but beginning of the night there fore they are 2 separate times, -
Peace Anna,
salam,
thank you i know there is no complusion in deen, but you are saying that "duluk lshamis" is the setting of the sun, so if layl begins at that time why did god not say this in the aya concering fasting, why did he say till night why did he not say til duluk lshamis,
and in the aya 1778 he is saying praying from sunset into the night, not into the middle or end but beginning of the night there fore they are 2 separate times,This has already been discussed before in this thread. Please don't twist God's words. 1778 does not ask us to uphold salat from sunset to night but from sunset to DARKNESS of the night. layl/night starts from duluk al-shams. If night starts from darkness then saying "darkness of the night" would be redundant. It would be just as saying "darkness of the darkness".
Also, numerous verses mention about merging of layl/night and nahaar/daytime. If night only starts at darkness, then where does the merging occur? From sunset to darkness of night is part of both nahaar and layl and is where one of the merging occurs. The other merging is from dawn to sunrise. So night/layl is from sunset to sunrise. The matter is very clear. I will not make any further comments. Please go through this entire thread.
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Truthseeker, salam
We have thrashed all old logics many a times over, and over, so there is no use redoing it but, brother, for God's definition of night (lail) do you have any answer to the following new find from Quran?
Fasiiree baiabdi lailleen, innakum Muttabaoon"
44-23 Allah said, `Take MY servants away by night; for you will surely be pursued.
siki
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Peace Siki,
That has nothing to do with defining the night time. Night/layl can refer to any part of night, but UNTIL NIGHT (2187) can only refer to start of night which is duluk al-shams. This is it. I WILL NOT MAKE ANY FURTHER COMMENTS. So silence on my part cannot be construed as you being correct. It is useless discussing with you any further.
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Peace Siki,
That has nothing to do with defining the night time. Night/layl can refer to any part of night, but UNTIL NIGHT (2187) can only refer to start of night which is duluk al-shams. This is it. I WILL NOT MAKE ANY FURTHER COMMENTS. So silence on my part cannot be construed as you being correct. It is useless discussing with you any further.
OK,
Anyone siding with Truthseeker?
siki