what is AL KITAB ?
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salam.
thank u all for the votes .
i voted for # 2 .
it is only yesterday since i have been able to decide it . one arguement that was barring me from accepting that Al Quran is The Reading and not the name of Al Kitab , was the verses that mentioned 'read the Quran' . because 'read the reading' was not making sense to me . i was like 'how can one read a reading ? one can read a book(which i thought was named Quran) but not a reading' . but then i recalled some similar verses that show that such occurances are not uncommon in the Kitab('Quran' ) ) . like 5115 which mentions 'punish a punishment' (and many other such occurances) , so if one can punish a punishment , one can also read the reading .
the Quran and the Kitab cannot be the same thing , because 1037 says that the Quran is the explaination the Kitab .
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Peace be upon you Mr Humble
what do you mean you used to worship 'the kitab'?
i think the sunnis do.....
I was once sunni D But even after that I worshipped it because I felt it was the only way to find "truth".
This takes nothing away from how superb I find the book to be, but I just dont worship it any longer.
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Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakamanwahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalanwaallatheena ataynahumu alkitabayaAAlamoona annahu munazzalun min rabbika bialhaqqifala takoonanna mina almumtareena
Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.Waotlu ma oohiya ilaykamin kitabi rabbika la mubaddila likalimatihiwalan tajida min doonihi multahadan And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.
Wama anzalna AAalayka alkitabailla litubayyina lahumu allathee ikhtalafoo feehiwahudan warahmatan liqawmin yu/minoona
And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou shouldst make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe.Al-Kitab is I Believe the Quran..
1)GOD did not send down a book that contains every scripture ever delivered(Torah,Psalms,Gospels and whats contained in the Quran itself)He sent down the Quran to Muhammad.
2)Muhammad only recited whats in the Quran
3)The only book given to Muhammad so that he could make clear or teach from was the Quran. -
Al-Kitab is I Believe the Quran..
1)GOD did not send down a book that contains every scripture ever delivered(Torah,Psalms,Gospels and whats contained in the Quran itself)He sent down the Quran to Muhammad.
2)Muhammad only recited whats in the Quran
3)The only book given to Muhammad so that he could make clear or teach from was the Quran.salam bro JHamza .
thanks for replying .
982 A messenger from God reciting purified pages.
983 in them are established books.so the books are within the purified pages which the messenger recites . the taurah,injeel etc are not seperate books . thats what i understand .
checkout the lecture at www.iipc.tv .
salam. -
Al-Kitab is I Believe the Quran..
1)GOD did not send down a book that contains every scripture ever delivered(Torah,Psalms,Gospels and whats contained in the Quran itself)He sent down the Quran to Muhammad.
2)Muhammad only recited whats in the Quran
3)The only book given to Muhammad so that he could make clear or teach from was the Quran.salam bro JHamza .
thanks for replying .
982 A messenger from God reciting purified pages.
983 in them are established books.so the books are within the purified pages which the messenger recites . the taurah,injeel etc are not seperate books . thats what i understand .
checkout the lecture at www.iipc.tv .
salam.Salaam bro.saladin,
Your welcome..yes thats true,I am sorry I didnt mean to imply that the taurah,injeel etc were not quoted or spoken of,Yes they are in the Quran,but I dont think the Quran has them in there entirety..only portians have been quoted or referred to in the Quran..but I could be wrong..this still doesnt negat that the Quran is Al-Kitab,because the Quran is the only book that was revealed to Muhammad.Peace...
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yes thats true,I am sorry I didnt mean to imply that the taurah,injeel etc were not quoted or spoken of,Yes they are in the Quran,but I dont think the Quran has them in there entirety..only portians have been quoted or referred to in the Quran..but I could be wrong..this still doesnt negat that the Quran is Al-Kitab,because the Quran is the only book that was revealed to Muhammad.
salam bro .
the Quran/Reading is one of the attributes/features of the Kitab/Book , just like the Zikr/Reminder and the Furqan/Criterion etc are attributes of the Book .in the same way ,the Taurah and Injeel are not seperate books , but aspects of the same Book .
the Book was given to all prophets . there was no other book before this book
464 Say "Do you see those that you call on besides God? Show me what they have created on the earth, or do they have a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this, or any trace of knowledge, if you are truthful."
the Torah and Bible of Jews and Christians are man-made books like the books of Hadith .
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Peace all. Option 4. The quran is a metaphorical summary of the universe at the time of the prophet,there are other previous books(bible,torah,bhagvad gita etc..) and there are new books(eg baihullahs book,guru nanaks book,science etc..) and there will be books to come. Revelation is an ongoing process. We just have to be careful to interpret and verify these books as best we can.
Peace all. -
Heres my opinon. Read # 1 "The Quran and self-Image" by Daniel Madigan. Also read # 2 "Prophetic word in Early Islam" by William Graham (not to be confused with the Christan pastor). These books have shaped my opinon considerably. The Quran is not the book we hold in are hands today. Whenever are Quran mentions the Quran it is talking about the dynamic process of revaltion that continues and will continue. In other words it is a continuing process. It is not are books that we now call the Quran. The kitab is the natural world. That idea may perplex you and along with the first idea may seem odd and far fected. For the first opinon read # 1. The second is my opinon that is based on my study of the Quran. If you consider it wrong give reasons why and I will answer your objections. The Furqan is alittle confusing. Furqan can mean separtion, salvation, crition, sign. I prefer sign. To me the Furqan is a sign post to the truth. So you may ask were does are writen Quran come into this. Are Quran is a small mass of matrial that may have been far larger (read # 2). Are Quran is a explantion of the furqan. Not the Furqan. For more information read this thread (inparticular 2 and 3 but also 1).
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13083.0
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Peace all. Option 4. The quran is a metaphorical summary of the universe at the time of the prophet,there are other previous books(bible,torah,bhagvad gita etc..) and there are new books(eg baihullahs book,guru nanaks book,science etc..) and there will be books to come. Revelation is an ongoing process. We just have to be careful to interpret and verify these books as best we can.
Peace all.What is your proof from Quran? as we know, God asked believers to believe in Quran, Bible and Torah; and if He wanted to send other books, He would have told us to believe in them as well. !
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What is your proof from Quran? as we know, God asked believers to believe in Quran, Bible and Torah; and if He wanted to send other books, He would have told us to believe in them as well. !
Assalaam Alaikum
There are no 'Books' that Allah reveals....its revelation NOT 'physical' books of papers.....
If We had sent unto you a written (message) on parchment / paper, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say. "This is nothing but obvious magic!"
Walaw nazzalna AAalayka kitaban fee qirtasin falamasoohu biaydeehim laqala allatheena kafaroo in hatha illa sihrun mubeenun
Qirtasin/ (Noun, tanween-kesra, indefinite) Book, Paper, What one writes upon;Root word Qartasa
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 452 (qartasa)
There is no ayah in the Quran that states 'we must believe in Bible and Torah'.....Injeel is NOT Bible and Torah (Hebrew) is NOT Tawrat
The People of The Book / Al Kitab are the 19 Prophets mentioned in Sura Al Anam 683 - 689
These were the men to whom We gave THE BOOK / Al Kitab, and authority, and prophethood. if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.
These Prophets were given The Book / Al Kitab, singular, ONE Book
Muhammed,as was given The Book / Al Kitab also....
To you (i.e. Muhammed) We sent The Book / Al Kitaba in truth, confirming WHAT IS BETWEEN YOUR TWO HANDS from Al Kitab
The Quran explains the details of The Book / Al Kitab....
And this Al-Quran / The Reading is not that can be produced from other than Allah, but it is a confirmation, that is between his two hands and the explanation / details of Al-kitab / The Book there is no doubt in it from the Lord of the worlds.
There are 33+ attributes of The Book / Al Kitab 'detailed' in the Quran in the following ayahs
2.185, 5.44, 3.3, 2.105, 11.96, 2.2, 53.4, 2.75, 6.104, 2.99, 85.21, 72.1, 5.15, 39.23, 12.3, 14.25, 3.138, 15.9, 7.145, 21.48, 2.99, 7.62, 3.44, 23.6, 98.2, 45.18, 9.49, 2.145, 10.35
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Salam All
Assalaam Alaikum
There are no 'Books' that Allah reveals....its revelation NOT 'physical' books of papers.....
If We had sent unto you a written (message) on parchment / paper, so that they could touch it with their hands, the Unbelievers would have been sure to say. "This is nothing but obvious magic!"
Walaw nazzalna AAalayka kitaban fee qirtasin falamasoohu biaydeehim laqala allatheena kafaroo in hatha illa sihrun mubeenun
Qirtasin/ (Noun, tanween-kesra, indefinite) Book, Paper, What one writes upon;Root word Qartasa
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 452 (qartasa)
Agree; but please understand that the revelation was written in papers and became Book (Ketab means something that is written).
There is no ayah in the Quran that states 'we must believe in Bible and Torah'.....Injeel is NOT Bible and Torah (Hebrew) is NOT Tawrat
Alif Lam Mim (1) Allah! There is no Allah but Hethe Living, the Self-Subsisting Eternal. (2) It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Torah (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) (3) Before this as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest chastisement and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution. (3-4)
Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will." (84) If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. (3-85)
Islam is to believe in the Orginal Book (Torah in Hebrow, Bible in Aramic, and Quran in Arabic).
(the translations are not correct in most of them as you and everybody else know)The People of The Book / Al Kitab are the 19 Prophets mentioned in Sura Al Anam 683 - 689
Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will pay it back; others, who if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding because they, say "There is no call on us with these ignorant ." But they tell a lie against Allah, and they know it. (3-75)
Say "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye! "Bear witness that we are Submitters." (3-64)
People of the Book are the ones who believe that Bible or Torah or Quran or all of them are the book s of God; but that does not mean they use the Book as true guidence, but most of the time they use the books that are written by their Religous Lords instead.
Peace
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Salam All
Agree; but please understand that the revelation was written in papers and became Book (Ketab means something that is written).Alif Lam Mim (1) Allah! There is no Allah but Hethe Living, the Self-Subsisting Eternal. (2) It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Torah (Of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) (3) Before this as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of Allah will suffer the severest chastisement and Allah is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution. (3-4)
Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will." (84) If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. (3-85)
Islam is to believe in the Orginal Book (Torah in Hebrow, Bible in Aramic, and Quran in Arabic).
(the translations are not correct in most of them as you and everybody else know)Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will pay it back; others, who if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding because they, say "There is no call on us with these ignorant ." But they tell a lie against Allah, and they know it. (3-75)
Say "O people of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not from among ourselves Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye! "Bear witness that we are Submitters." (3-64)
People of the Book are the ones who believe that Bible or Torah or Quran or all of them are the book s of God; but that does not mean they use the Book as true guidence, but most of the time they use the books that are written by their Religous Lords instead.
Peace
Salam
Well said Belalhammad! bravo
Perhaps MTR will find benefit in re-reading
IF you read the previous scripture in THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGE you would KNOW that the previous scriptures ARE from ALLAH.
Often times there are people who insist on reading the Quran in Arabic and then settle for a mistranslated version of the previous scripture.
Therefore I repeat
You MUST read ALL scripture in the ORIGINAL languages and then you will KNOW that it is revealation.But the authority on the Subject is ALWAYS ALLAH so, Let's see what is written in the Quran
- Previous scripture is REVELATION from ALLAH
33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.544
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.545
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.546
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).547
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.548
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed;- YOU follow NO GOOD until you Keep up the Torah and Injeel
568
Say O followers of the Book! you follow no good till you keep up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which is revealed to you from your Lord; and surely that which has been revealed to you from your Lord shall make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; grieve not therefore for the unbelieving people.The ones who are GUIDED?.BELIEVE in what was revealed BEFORE?THIS is how we know who is guided as said in al baqarah....
24
And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.And this is what is said of those who do NOT believe in previous revelation?..
4136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.625
The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.566
And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they doThe common claim is that previous scripture has been lost or altered.
Those who make such claims are also claiming that THEY DISBELIEVE in the Quran when we are TOLD to uphold previous scripture.
I have given several verses as evidence regarding previous scripture. However, there ARE MANY MORE.
Allah clearly states that HE KNOWS BEST what is in the Heavens and the EARTH (that would include knowing that previous scriptures are STILL here for us to UPHOLD as COMMANDED).?
1755
And your Lord best knows those who are in the heavens and the earth; and certainly We have made some of the prophets to excel others, and to Dawood We gave a scripture.No one can argue that a thing is incorrect or flawed without an intimate knowledge of the thing they are judging.
So if a person has not read the previous scriptures in their original languages, they cannot say that they are not revelation. They are are simply parroting what others have told them.
Salam,
Arnab -
Assalaam Alaikum
Unfortunately, many people take the Quran as a philosophy or history book to be critiqued and subjected to interpretation and opinion.
Personally, I accept the Quran as guidance, Allah confirms this point
Withoutdoubt, We revealed to you a BOOK, YOU are mentioned in it, so will you not then understand.
Allah speaks and influences the 'soul
"O (you) soul / nafsu, in (complete) rest and satisfaction / almutmainnatu!
Ya ayyatuha alnnafsu almutmainnatu
Allah states the guidance is NOT reflected in ANY other Book.....
And you did NOT recite before this Book / ma kunta tatloo min qablihi min kitabin YOU did NOT TRANSCRIBE / WRITE it with YOUR right hand / Hands. In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.
Allah tells where the guidance is contained....
No, here are Signs SELF-EVIDENT IN THE HEARTS OF THOSE ENDOWED WITH KNOWLEDGE. and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Arnab...
First point, This is NOT 'personal', negative and false characterizations of me and others is NOT required in a intellectual discussion.
(Besides does anyone really care?)
Lets quickly, dispense with your fallacy and belief that the Quran is referring to Torah, which is a Hebrew term and 'Bible', which has its origin in Latin, Greek, or whatever argument is appropriate.
@Arnab...your statement...."33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan."This interpretation is WRONG and misleading.....
"verifying that which is before it" is NOT in the Arabic of the ayah
The CORRECT translation and interpretation confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi;
Musaddiqan (active participle) Some entity is taking the responsibility confirming now
Li is a preposition that indicates an association with human beings and ABSTRACT entities (objects) one cannot physically possess; ?Al-Kitaab fii Ta?allum al-Arabiyya? page 111
Bayna between
yadayhi; YOUR handsIt is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel, as a guide to mankind.
@Arnab...your statement..."543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers."This interpretation is WRONG and misleading.....
"they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment".....Is NOT reflected in the ayah and is DELIBERATELY misleading...
Wa kayfa yuhakkimoonaka waAAindahumu alttawratu feeha hukmu Allahi thumma yatawallawna min baAAdi thalika wama olaika bialmumineena
kayfa means ?How?, Its relevance pertains to a conditional action that has taken place in the past or taking place now
yuhakkimoonaka appoint someone to judge YOU
AAindahumu is a preposition which means WITH THESE WORDS, at this moment, as we speak
feeha means literally INSIDE / IN it
hukmu Allahi = Hukm of AllahThe ayah is NOT referring to a 'Torah' written by the Halakhim centuries ago, during the Jewish Temple period. Nor does Allah's Hukm reside in a 'Torah'
A more appropriate translation would reflect
? And how can they govern you? And At-Tawrat / The Law is in these words / near them, in it is Hukum / government of Allah. Then after that they turn away and they are not with the believers.
And He is Allah. There is no god but He. To Him be praise, at the first and at the last. for Him is the Judgement/ Al Hukm, and to Him shall you (all) be brought back.
Last point....
@Arnab....the references you made in 24 and 4136 are misleading interpretations ....
Both references are referring to Al Kitab. The word 'Qablu' refers to a TIME and PLACE NOT books! (See Rad 133
Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic / anzalnahu hukman AAarabiyyan. Wert you to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which has reached you, then wouldst you find neither protector nor defender against Allah.
As you can see (above) Allah sent the Hukm in Arabic NOT Hebrew.
We did send Messengers before you, and appointed for them spouses and children. and it was never the part of an Messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book / ajalin kitabun .
The word 'Kitabu' the 'fatha' over the 'ta' denotes that this verb or root NEVER changes. It reflects the 'origin' of the verb.
Every Messenger received Al Kitab in Arabic NOT Hebrew!
Which Allah confirms below....
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth. with Him is the Mother of the Book.
Allah maintains the Hukm and Al Kitab, the origin of the guidance sent to ALL Messengers is with Allah in Arabic NOT Hebrew!
@Arnab....For the sake of brevity, there is no need to address your litany of mistranslated references. If you wish we can address any specific references or points you wish to discuss.
And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.
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@Arnab....For the sake of brevity, there is no need to address your litany of mistranslated references. If you wish we can address any specific references or points you wish to discuss.
Peace;
Do you say the Following?Say "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will." (84) If anyone desires a religion other than Islam never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost. (3-85)
And if you do? Do you act upon what you say?
Peace
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Assalaam Alaikum @Arnab...
First point, This is NOT 'personal', negative and false characterizations of me and others is NOT required in a intellectual discussion.
(Besides does anyone really care?)
Please don't take my posts personally MTR and I made no negative or false characterizations of either you or anyone else (please re-read my previous post). My debate is with your understanding not you personally.
Lets quickly, dispense with your fallacy and belief that the Quran is referring to Torah, which is a Hebrew term and 'Bible', which has its origin in Latin, Greek, or whatever argument is appropriate.
First of all you are wrong in assuming that the word Torah is unique to the Arabic dialect. The word Torah has the same meaning in ALL the dialects of the Semitic language and is used in exactly the same way in all the scriptures.
Perhaps it would be of benefit to clarify some of the different terms used
Tanakh The Hebrew Bible in Hebrew and Aramaic. This collection goes by many names The English version is usually called the Old Testament by the Christians, the Greek version is the Septuagint and so on.
The Torah is the first five books of the Tanakh/Old Testament and is also called The Five books of Moses, The books of Moses, The Laws, or the Pentateuch.
The New Testament is the part in the Christian Bible that comes after the Old Testament it includes the Gospels and the Writings of Paul and Revelations.
The word bible is traced back to Greek (and Latin) and has become an acceptable English word that refers to the Old Testament and New Testament in English.
The books I refer to are the Torah, Tanakh and Injeel (Gospels which specifically are Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and in their original languages. I do not refer to translations.
@Arnab...your statement...."33
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan."This interpretation is WRONG and misleading.....
"verifying that which is before it" is NOT in the Arabic of the ayah
The CORRECT translation and interpretation confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi;
Yes I agree that the translation is faulty. Please understand that I posted translations to make a point. No translation is entirely accurate.
It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel, as a guide to mankind.
Yes, this translation I agree is more accurate. However, the fact remains that he sent down the TORAH (same word in ALL the semitic languages) and Injeel. So the "between your hands" translation, is beyond the topic of this discussion, and to be frank not the point.
@Arnab...your statement..."543
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers."This interpretation is WRONG and misleading.....
"they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment".....Is NOT reflected in the ayah and is DELIBERATELY misleading...
Wa kayfa yuhakkimoonaka waAAindahumu alttawratu feeha hukmu Allahi thumma yatawallawna min baAAdi thalika wama olaika bialmumineena
kayfa means ?How?, Its relevance pertains to a conditional action that has taken place in the past or taking place now
yuhakkimoonaka appoint someone to judge YOU
AAindahumu is a preposition which means WITH THESE WORDS, at this moment, as we speak
feeha means literally INSIDE / IN it
hukmu Allahi = Hukm of AllahThe ayah is NOT referring to a 'Torah' written by the Halakhim centuries ago, during the Jewish Temple period. Nor does Allah's Hukm reside in a 'Torah'
A more appropriate translation would reflect
? And how can they govern you? And At-Tawrat / The Law is in these words / near them, in it is Hukum / government of Allah. Then after that they turn away and they are not with the believers.
I understand that you are unsatisfied with the translations. Translations are no substitute for the Arabic I agree. However, you again argued a point that is not the subject of the topic. Even with your change to the translation the fact remains that we have the Torah.
Last point....
@Arnab....the references you made in 24 and 4136 are misleading interpretations ....
Both references are referring to Al Kitab. The word 'Qablu' refers to a TIME and PLACE NOT books! (See Rad 133
Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic / anzalnahu hukman AAarabiyyan. Wert you to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which has reached you, then wouldst you find neither protector nor defender against Allah.
As you can see (above) Allah sent the Hukm in Arabic NOT Hebrew.
Arabic is a dialect of the semitic language. There is no denying the linguistic ties to its predecessors. And there is no denying the majority of root words that share definitions and usage in the three major dialects of the Semitic language (Hebrew, Aramaic, and Arabic).
The word Arab (ayin-ra-ba) is used to refer to those who lived in the desert area of Arabia even in the Tanakh.
The word Hebrew (ayin-ba-ra) literally means "to cross over/foreigner " and has been used to refer to the Isrealites and the language they spoke.As a side note I find it interesting that the words are similar, with only a transposition of the ba and ra.
We did send Messengers before you, and appointed for them spouses and children. and it was never the part of an Messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded). For each period is a Book / ajalin kitabun .
The word 'Kitabu' the 'fatha' over the 'ta' denotes that this verb or root NEVER changes. It reflects the 'origin' of the verb.
Every Messenger received Al Kitab in Arabic NOT Hebrew!
That last sentence is your opinion.
Which Allah confirms below....
Allah doth blot out or confirm what He pleaseth. with Him is the Mother of the Book.
Allah maintains the Hukm and Al Kitab, the origin of the guidance sent to ALL Messengers is with Allah in Arabic NOT Hebrew!
Again, that last sentence in italics is your opinion not a statement from the Quran.
@Arnab....For the sake of brevity, there is no need to address your litany of mistranslated references. If you wish we can address any specific references or points you wish to discuss.
MTR this is an English forum, I merely posted verses to state a point. In the examples of mistranslations you referred to the original point is not lost. For the sake of clarity the point of the post was that the Torah and Injeel are also part of Al Kitab.
Salam,
Arnab -
@Arnab...
We are discussing Quran, the language of the Quran....Arabic / Arabbiyya we are NOT discussing Hebrew...nor does Hebrew have anything to do with the Quran, period.
I`rab
The Arabic word I?rb ( ‎ designates the system of nominal and adjectival suffixes of Classical Arabic. The term is cognate to the word Arab itself. These suffixes are written in fully vocalized Arabic texts, notably the Qur'an, and they are articulated when a text is formally read aloud, but THEY DO NOT SURVIVE IN ANY SPOKEN DIALECT OF ARABIC. Even in formal Arabic, these suffix vowels are not pronounced "in pausa", i.e. when the word occurs at the end of the sentence, in accordance with certain rules of Arabic pronunciation.
@Arnab
But We had not given them Books which they could study, nor sent Messengers to them before you as Warners.
Your missing the point, irrespective of whether you or anyone else has the 'Torah', the Quran is stating "We did NOT give you a Book called Torah"
Denial is NOT a argumentative position. One's desire to appear knowledgeable and 'correct' is NOT a tactic utilized in a civil intellectual debate. In addition, presumption is an assumption veiled in the lack of evidence and truth.
Now again Allah revealed the Hukm to ALL the Messengers in Arabic NOT Hebrew. Thats a Quranic fact NOT my opinion.
Now please address the ayah to suggest anything different from what Allah is indicating....
? That was the reasoning about Us, which We gave to Abraham (to use) against his people. We raise whom We will, degree after degree. for thy Lord is full of wisdom and knowledge.
? We gave him Isaac and Jacob. all (three) guided. and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. thus do We reward those who do good.
? And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias. all in the ranks of the righteous.
? And Isma'il and Elisha, and Jonas, and Lot. and to all We gave favour above the nations.@Arnab..seems to be about 19 Prophets/Messengers mentioned.....
These were the men (aforementioned) to whom We gave THE BOOK / AL-KITABA, and authority / AL-HUKM, and prophethood. if these (their descendants) reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.
Thus have We revealed it to be a judgment of authority in Arabic / anzalnahu HUKMan AAarabiyyan. Were you to follow their (vain) desires after the knowledge which has reached you, then wouldst you find neither protector nor defender against Allah.
@Arnab since you claim It was my 'opinion' that suggested that 'Every Messenger received Al Kitab and the Hukm in Arabic NOT Hebrew!'
Please address the ayahs
@Arnab you made another presumptive error and observation......
1339 Allah establishes and confirms / yuthbitu whatever He wills for with Allah is the source of all revelation / ommu al-kitabi.
Yamhoo Allahu ma yashao wayuthbitu waAAindahu ommu al-kitabi
Ummi / Ummu; Root word Umm (noun) Mother, Source, PRINCIPLE, ORIGIN, PROTOTYPE;
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 32 (Ummun)@Arnab...Help myself and the audience understand how you came to the conclusion that it was my 'opinion' that suggested
"Allah maintains the Hukm and Al Kitab, the origin of the guidance sent to ALL Messengers is with Allah in Arabic NOT Hebrew!"
When Allah,swt confirms my statement in Sura Ar-Ra`d 1339. (Sura 434 also)
Please address the aforementioned ayahs NOT myself but the ayahs please...
I await your response
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@Arnab...
We are discussing Quran, the language of the Quran....Arabic / Arabbiyya we are NOT discussing Hebrew...nor does Hebrew have anything to do with the Quran, period.
This reply will have to be made in several posts in order to present all the information. This is post 1
The Arabic dialect is part of the Semitic Language family. Linguists usually study all dialects of the semitic language family in order to obtain a firm grasp of the language and understand the different ways the words are used in the sacred texts.
Perhaps a word study on the root ayn-ra-ba would be helpful.
Hebrew
From Strong's Hebrew Dictionary and Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Definitions
Strong's H6148
arab
aw-rab'
A primitive root; to braid, that is, intermix; technically to traffic (as if by barter); also to give or be security (as a kind of exchange) - engage, (inter-) meddle (with), mingle (self), mortgage, occupy, give pledges, be (-come, put in) surety, undertake.
BDB Definition- to pledge, exchange, mortgage, engage, occupy, undertake for, give pledges, be or become surety, take on pledge, give in pledge
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to take on pledge, go surety for
1a2) to give in pledge
1a3) to exchange
1a4) to pledge
1b) (Hithpael)
1b1) to exchange pledges
1b2) to have fellowship with, share
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root
Same Word by TWOT Number 1686
Strong's H6149
areb
aw-rabe'
A primitive root (rather identical with H6148 through the idea of close association); to be agreeable - be pleasant (-ing), take pleasure in, be sweet.
BDB Definition- (Qal) to be pleasant, be sweet, be pleasing
1a) (TWOT) sweet, pleasant
Part of Speech verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number a primitive root ; to be agreeable
Same Word by TWOT Number 1687a
Strong's H6152
arab arab
ar-ab', ar-awb'
From H6150 in the figuratively sense of sterility; Arab (that is, Arabia), a country East of Palestine - Arabia.
BDB Definition- steppe-dwellers
1a) the people inhabiting the country east and south of Canaan, the nomadic desert Bedouins
1b) Arabians, Arabs
Part of Speech noun proper collective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6150 in the figurative sense of sterility
Same Word by TWOT Number 1688a, 1688c
Strong's H6154
ereb ereb
ay'-reb, eh'-reb
The second form used in 1Ki_1015 with the article prefixed); from H6148; the web (or transverse threads of cloth); also a mixture, (or mongrel race) - Arabia, mingled people, mixed (multitude), woof.
BDB Definition- woof
1a) as mixed, interwoven
1b) knitted material - mixture, mixed people, mixed company
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6148
Same Word by TWOT Number 1685a, 1685b
Strong's H6155
arab
aw-rawb'
From H6148; a willow (from the use of osiers as wattles) - willow.
BDB Definition- poplar, willow
1a) a tree characterised by dark wood
Part of Speech noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6148
Same Word by TWOT Number 1690b
Strong's H6156
areb
From H6149; pleasant - sweet.
BDB Definition- sweet, pleasant
Part of Speech adjective
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6149
Same Word by TWOT Number 1687a
Strong's H6157
arob
aw-robe'
From H6148; a mosquito (from its swarming) - divers sorts or flies, swarm.
BDB Definition- swarm
1a) probable meaning from ?mixture? and ?incessant or involved motion?
Part of Speech noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6148
Same Word by TWOT Number 1685c
Also compare
Strong's H6160
arabah
ar-aw-baw'
From H6150 (in the sense of sterility); a desert; especially (with the article prefixed) the (generally) sterile valley of the Jordan and its continuation to the Red Sea - Arabah, champaign, desert, evening, heaven, plain, wilderness. See also H1026.
BDB Definition- desert plain, steppe, desert, wilderness
Part of Speech noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6150 (in the sense of sterility)
Same Word by TWOT Number 1688d
Strong's H6161
arubbah
ar-oob-baw'
Feminine passive participle of H6048 in the sense of a bargain or exchange; something given as security, that is, (literally) a token (of safety) or (metaphorically) a bondsman - pledge, surety.
BDB Definition- pledge, token, bond, surety, thing exchanged
Part of Speech noun feminine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number feminine passive participle of H6048 in the sense of a bargain or exchange
Same Word by TWOT Number 1686a
Strong's H6163
arabiy arbiy
ar-aw-bee', ar-bee'
Patrial from H6152; an Arabian or inhabitant of Arab (that is, Arabia) - Arabian.
BDB Definition
Arabian = see Arabia ?mixed?- an inhabitant of Arabia
1a) steppe-dweller
Part of Speech adjective proper patrial
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H6152
Strong's H6164
arbathiy
ar-baw-thee'
Patrial from H1026; an Arbathite or inhabitant of (Beth-) Arabah - Arbathite.
BDB Definition
Arbathite = see Betharabah ?desert house?- an inhabitant of Beth-arabah
Part of Speech adjective patrial
A Related Word by BDB/Strong?s Number from H1026
on to the next post------------>
- to pledge, exchange, mortgage, engage, occupy, undertake for, give pledges, be or become surety, take on pledge, give in pledge
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Part 2
From International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Arabah
ar?a-ba, a-ra?ba , ha-arabhah, ?the Arabah?) This word indicates in general a barren district, but is specifically applied in whole or in part to the depression of the Jordan valley, extending from Mount Hermon to the Gulf of Akabah. In the King James Version it is transliterated only once (Jos_181 describing the border of Benjamin. Elsewhere it is rendered ?plain.? But in the Revised Version (British and American) it is everywhere transliterated. South of the Dead Sea the name is still retained in Wady el-Arabah. In Deu_11; Deu_28 (the King James Version ?plain?) the southern portion is referred to; in Deu_317; Deu_449; Jos_316; Jos_112; Jos_123 and 2Ki_1425 the name is closely connected with the Dead Sea and the Sea of Chinnereth (Gennesaret). The allusions to the Arabah in Deu_1130; Jos_814; Jos_121; Jos_1818; 2Sa_229; 2Sa_47; 2Ki_254; Jer_394; Jer_527 indicate that the word was generally used in its most extended sense, while in Jos_1116, and Jos_128 it is represented as one of the great natural divisions of the country.
The southern portion, which still retains the name of Arabah, is included in the wilderness of Zin (Num_343). According to the survey of Lord Kitchener and George Armstrong made in 1883, under the auspices of the Palestine Exploration Fund, its length from the head of the Gulf of Akabah to the Dead Sea is 112 miles. The lowest point of the watershed is 45 miles from Akabah, and 660 feet above tide (1,952 above the Dead Sea). The average width of the valley up to this point is about 6 miles, but here a series of low limestone ridges (called Er Risheh) rising 150 feet above the plain runs obliquely across it for a distance of 10 miles, narrowing it up to a breadth of about one-half mile. North of this point, opposite Mount Hor, the valley widens out to 13 miles and then gradually narrows to 6 miles at the south end of the Dead Sea. At Ain Abu Werideh, 29 miles north of the watershed, the valley is at the sea-level - 1,292 feet above that of the Dead Sea. North of the watershed, the main line of drainage is the Wady el-Jeib, which everywhere keeps pretty close to the west side of the valley. At Ain Abu Werideh it is joined by numerous wadies descending from the Edomite mountains on the east, which altogether water an oasis of considerable extent, covered with a thicket of young palms, tamarisks, willows and reeds. Twenty-four miles farther north the Arabah breaks down suddenly into the valley of the Dead Sea, or the Gh?r, as it is technically called. Lord Kitchener's report is here so vivid as to be worthy of literal reproduction. ?The descent to the Gh?r was down a sandy slope of 300 feet, and the change of climate was most marked, from the sandy desert to masses of tangled vegetation with streams of water running in all directions, birds fluttering from every tree, the whole country alive with life; nowhere have I seen so great and sudden a contrast? (Mount Seir, 214). The descent here described was on the eastern side of the semicircular line of cliffs formed of sand, gravel, and marl which enclose the Gh?r at the south end, and which are probably what are referred to in Jos_153 as the ?ascent of Akrabbim.? The ordinary route, however, leading to the plain of the Arabah from the Dead Sea is up the trough worn by the Wady el-Jeib along the west side of the valley. But this route would be impracticable during the rainy season after the cloudbursts which occasionally visit this region, when torrents of water pour down it, sufficient to roll boulders of considerable size and to transport an immense amount of coarse sediment.
South of the Dead Sea a muddy plain, known as the Sebkah, extends 6 miles, filling about one-half of the width of the Gh?r. During most of the year the mud over this area is so thin and deep that it is impossible to cross it near its northern end. This whole area between the ?ascent of Akrabbim? and the Dead Sea has evidently been greatly transformed by the sedimentary deposits which have been brought in by the numerous tributary wadies during the last 4,000 years, the coarser material having encroached upon it from either side, and the fine material having been deposited over the middle portion, furnishing the clay which is so embarrassing to travelers. (For further considerations upon this point see DEAD SEA; CITIES OF THE PLAIN.)- Geology of the Region
The Arabah in its whole extent occupies a portion of the great geological fault or crevasse in the earth's crust which extends from Antioch near the mouth of the Orontes southward between the Lebanon and the Anti-Lebanon Mountains to the valley of the Jordan and the Dead Sea, and onward to the Gulf of Akabah, whence it can be traced with considerable probability through the Red Sea and the interior lakes of Africa. The most remarkable portion of this phenomenal crevasse is that which extends from the Waters of Merom to the springs of Ain Abu Werideh; for through this entire distance the Arabah is below sea-level, the depression at the Dead Sea being approximately 1,292 feet. See DEAD SEA. Throughout the entire distance from the Waters of Merom to the watershed, 45 miles from Akabah, the western side of the Arabah is bordered by strata of Cretaceous (chalk) limestone rising pretty continuously to a height of from 2,000 to 3,000 feet above sea-level, no older rocks appearing upon that side. But upon the eastern side older sandstones (Nubian and lower Carboniferous) and granitic rocks border the plain, supporting, however, at a height of 2,000 or 3,000 feet Cretaceous limestones corresponding to those which descend to the level of the gorge on the western side. Throughout this entire distance, therefore, the strata have either slipped down upon the western side or risen upon the eastern side, or there has been a movement in both directions. The origin of this crevasse dates from the latter part of the Cretaceous or the early part of the Tertiary period.
But in post-Tertiary times an expanded lake filled the region, extending from the Waters of Merom to Ain Abu Werideh, a distance of about 200 miles, rising to an elevation of about 1,400 feet above the present level of the Dead Sea, but not sufficiently high to secure connection with the ocean either through the Arabah proper or across the valley of Esdraelon. This body of water was, on the average, 30 miles wide and over the northern part of the Dead Sea had an extreme depth of 2,700 feet. The most distinct evidence of the existence of this enlargement of the lake is to be found at Ain Abu Werideh, where Hull reports ?banks of horizontally stratified materials ... sometimes of coarse material, such as gravel; at other times consisting of fine sand, loam, or white marl, with very even stratification, and containing blanched semi-fossil shells of at least two kinds of univalves, which Professor Haddon has determined to be Melania tuberculata M?ll, and Melanopsis Saulcyi, Bourg? (Mount Seir, 99, 100). These are shells which are now found, according to Tristram, in great numbers in semi-fossil condition in the marl deposits of the Dead Sea, and both of these genera are found in the fluvio-marine beds formed in the brackish or salt water of the Isle of Wight. The existence of the shells indicates the extent to which the saline waters of the Dead Sea were diluted at that time. It should be added, however, that species somewhat similar still exist around the borders of the Dead Sea in lagoons where fresh water is mingled in large quantities with that of the Dead Sea. This is especially true in eddies near the mouth of the Jordan. (See Merrill, East of the Jordan.) Huntington in 1909 confirms the fact that these high-level shore lines are found on both sides of the Dead Sea, though for some reason the have not been traced farther north.
At lower levels, especially at that which is 650 feet above the Dead Sea, there is, however, a very persistent terrace of gravel, sand and clay marking a shore line all the way from the south end of the Dead Sea to Lake Galilee. This can be seen running up into all the wadies on either side, being very prominent opposite their mouths, but much eroded since its deposition. On the shores of the lake between the wadies the line is marked by a slight accumulation of coarse material. Below the 650-foot line there are several other minor strands marking periods when the subsiding waters were for a short time stationary.
This period of enlargement of the waters in the Arabah is now, with abundant reason, correlated with the Glacial epoch whose influence was so generally distributed over the northern hemisphere in early post-Tertiary times. There were, however, no living glaciers within the limits of the Arabah Valley - Mount Hermon not being sufficiently large to support any extensive ice-sheet. The nearest glacier of any extent was on the west side of the Lebanon Mountains, 40 to 50 miles north of Beir?t, where according to my own observations one descended from the summit of the mountains (10,000 feet high) 12 miles down the valley of the Kadesha River to a level 5,500 feet above the sea, where it built up an immense terminal moraine several miles across the valley, and 5 miles up it from its front, upon which is now growing the celebrated grove of the Cedars of Lebanon. (See Records of the Past, Am. series, V, 195-204.) The existence of the moraine, however, had been noted by Sir Joseph Hooker forty years before. (See Nat. Hist. Rev., January, 1862.)
But while there were no glaciers in the Arabah Valley itself, there, as elsewhere, semi-glacial conditions extended beyond the glacial limits a considerable distance into the lower latitudes, securing the increased precipitation and the diminished evaporation which would account for the enlargement of the bodies of water occupying enclosed basins within reach of these influences. The basin of Great Salt Lake in Utah presents conditions almost precisely like those of the Arabah, as do the Caspian and Aral seas, and lakes Urumiah, Van, and various others in central Asia. During the Glacial epoch the water level of Great Salt Lake rose more than 1,000 feet higher than now and covered ten times its present area. At the same time the Aral Sea discharged into the Caspian Sea through an outlet as large as Niagara. When the conditions of the Glacial epoch passed away the evaporation again prevailed, until the water areas of these enclosed basins were reduced to the existing dimensions and the present equilibrium was established between the precipitation and the evaporation.
While it is susceptible of proof that the close of this epoch was geologically recent, probably not more than 10,000 years ago (see Wright, Ice Age in North America, 5th edition, chapter xx),the present conditions had become established approximately long before the time of Abraham and the development of civilization in Babylonia and Egypt.
East of the Arabah between the Dead Sea and Akabah numerous mountain peaks rise to the height of more than 4,000 feet above tide level, the highest being Mount Hor, though back of it there is a limestone range reaching 5,000 feet. This mountainous region contains numerous fertile areas and furnishes through its numerous wadies a considerable amount of water to favor vegetation. The limestone floor of the Arabah south of the Dead Sea is deeply covered with sand and gravel, washed in from the granitic areas from the east. This greatly favors the accumulation of sediment at the mouths of the wadies emptying into the south end of the Gh?r. - History
At present the Egyptian government maintains a fort and harbor at Akabah, but its authority does not extend into the interior. The Arabah has, however, from time immemorial furnished a caravan route between northern Arabia and the Sinaitic Peninsula. It was this which supported the great emporium of Petra. The Israelites traversed its southern portion both on their way from Horeb to Kadesh-barnea and on their return, when the king of Edom refused passage through his land (Num_2021; Deu_23). This opposition compelled them to turn up the forbidding Wady el-Ithem, which opens into the Arabah a few miles north of Akabah and leads to the Pilgrim route between Damascus and Mecca. The terrors of this passage are referred to in Num_214, where it is said ?the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.? Around Akabah itself there are still groves of palms, the existence of which, at the time of the Exodus, is indicated by the name Elath (Deu_2, ?a grove of trees.?
Literature
Burchkhardt, Travels in Syria and the Holy Land, 1822; De Laborde, Voyage en Orient, 1828; Hull, Mount Seir, Sinai, and Western Palestine, 1889; ?The Physical Geol. and Geog. of Arabia Petrea,? etc., in PEF, 1886; Lartet, Voyage d'exploration de la Mer Morte, t. 3me, 1880; Robinson, BR, 1855; Stanley, Sinai and Pal5, 1860; Blankenkorn, ?Entstehung u. Gesch. des Todten Meeres,? in ZDPV, 1896; Ritter, ?Comp. Geog. of Palestine and the Sinaitic Peninsula,? 1866, translation by Wm. L. Gage; Huntington, Palestine and Its Transformation, 1911.
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- Geology of the Region