Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace everyone,
Here are the verses using shahr and it's plural in which ones does the meaning 'full moon' not fit?
2184, 194, 217 52, 97 936 3412 4615 973 597 shahr
492 584 shahrain (dual)
2197, 226, 234 95, 36 654 92 (plural)
ALL of them! They are not nonsensical.
Today is Oct 7. Take verses below and apply in real life...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidently kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
Now apply the same events above a week later on Oct 14 which is a full moon date.
Then apply again a day later on Oct 15.
Please provide exact number of days so we can see how consistent and clear your interpretation is.
Thanks.
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Peace Nun,
All of this has been addressed over and over again on this thread. If you have something of value to say then say it instead of repeating your mindless arguments. The only way for you to add value is to propose an alternative understanding of the timing and then compare side by side your proposed timing with others such as Anwar's and mine. When Anwar did this (after I had to put it for him in bold) it became immediately clear which timing is more in line with the great reading and reflects a better understanding. So either put out an alternative better understanding of the whole timing issue or if you are happy to stay with having no understanding then you are really in no position to criticise anything.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
A typical non answer to a simple question applied in real life.
You know all your timings will be different/inconsistent and depend on the date of the event.
At least answer the case of the event happening on Oct 14, 2008 or on day of a full moon...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
Tell your followers HOW MANY DAYS so they know exactly what to do.
Peace
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Peace Nun,
A typical non answer to a simple question applied in real life.
You know all your timings will be different/inconsistent and depend on the date of the event.At least we know them while you don't know anything and this is why you are mindlessly criticizing and all your arguments are essentially fallacious arguments from ignorance. Again, if you disagree and think that you have any understanding then please tell everyone what your understanding of the timing is.
At least answer the case of the event happening on Oct 14, 2008 or on day of a full moon...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
Tell your followers HOW MANY DAYS so they know exactly what to do.This has already been answered many times on this thread. So first you answer
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (222
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Ayman instead of wasting your time by talking trash, please answer our questions clearly and without attitude. That would be the best way to shut us up. If what you say is true than you should be glad to repeat these same things over and over again until we get it. My advice is that after you repeat it forus here, you just copy and paste the response again if we're too bone-headed to get it. Thanks.
Peace Nun,
All of this has been addressed over and over again on this thread. If you have something of value to say then say it instead of repeating your mindless arguments. The only way for you to add value is to propose an alternative understanding of the timing and then compare side by side your proposed timing with others such as Anwar's and mine. When Anwar did this (after I had to put it for him in bold) it became immediately clear which timing is more in line with the great reading and reflects a better understanding. So either put out an alternative better understanding of the whole timing issue or if you are happy to stay with having no understanding then you are really in no position to criticise anything.
Peace,
Ayman
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar, Nun, and everyone,
Anwar, how come you have never criticized on this thread the people here who are dogmatically pushing the traditional understanding or lack of understanding as in the case of Nun?
By the same token, Nun, why haven?t you criticized Anwar?s arbitrary 30 days in the summer timing of the fast and arbitrary four 30 days restriction period in summer, spring and winter?
As we can see on this thread, it is the best available understanding that is most menacing to dogmatic miscreants like those we have seen here pushing the traditional understanding or those with no understanding or those with arbitrary understanding. Therefore, they ignore each other because they don?t really take each other seriously and instead they throw their logical fallacies ad nauseam at the understanding that has real merit and thus poses real threat to their dogma. On the other hand, the best understanding has taken on and shattered ALL existing understandings. So thanks guys.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Unfortunately that was not an answer to Nun's questions or to mine. Saying that your understanding is the best and how come we don't criticize others is not exactly an answer to our questions. Did we ask you if your opinion was the best? No. Did we ask about others' traditional/dogmatic opinions here? Couldn't I claim the same thing about your fierce criticsim of my conclusions? I believe my questions are more fitting Quranically than yours, but that is not the point. So please don't try to turn that into an argument. I'm not criticizing your conclusion here or comparing them to mine, I just want some clarification. It hoenstly seems like you are trying to avoid our questons on purpose. Why? Because this is the second time we've asked you these straight up questions with no criticism at all of your conclusions. So please answer our questions. I'll quote them below. In your next reply I hope to see some straight up no nonsense answers to these specific questions.
Nun's question which she summarized for you
At least answer the case of the event happening on Oct 14, 2008 or on day of a full moon...
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
Tell your followers HOW MANY DAYS so they know exactly what to do.
Peace
My first inquiry
Peace,
I got this online (online info is in italics)
A Full Moon occurs when the Moon is 100% illuminated, as seen from Earth. This happens each month when the Sun and Moon are exactly opposite each other in the sky. In other words, when the Moon is 180 degrees away from the Sun. Having stated that, you could say that a Full Moon only lasts for a minute because the Moon is constantly revolving around the Earth and just BEFORE it reaches that special point in its orbit - 180 degrees away from the Sun - it is 179.99 degrees away from the Sun and at that point it is not, technically speaking, 100% illuminated. Instead, it is 99.9999999% illuminated. If you want to be a stickler for details, that is not 100% illuminated and therefore it is not a Full Moon. Also, just moments AFTER the Moon reaches that special point in its orbit - 180 degrees away from the Sun - it is 180.01 degrees away from the Sun and at that point, once again, it is not, technically speaking, 100% illuminated. Instead, it is 99.9999999% illuminated.
It is not possible to discern the difference between a Moon that is 100% illuminated and one that is 99.9999999% illuminated. So, we would say that it is a Full Moon in both situations. However, there does come a point when an observer will notice that the Moon is not quite 100% illuminated. This point is different for different observers and is probably largely dependent on how much experience you have observing the Moon and how carefully you make your observations. I would like to think that most people would notice that when the Moon is 95% illuminated it no longer appears perfectly round and so it is no longer a Full Moon.
So, with this in mind, you may be interested to know how long it takes for the Moon to go from being 95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) to 100% illuminated (Full Moon) to 95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous). I will state times and dates for an observer located in Toronto and will use the most recent Full Moon as an example.
95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) 15 Jul 2008 90000 PM (EDT)
100% illuminated (Full Moon) 18 Jul 2008 40000 AM (EDT)
95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous) 20 Jul 2008 100000 AM (EDT)
So, as you can see, it took 109 hours for the Moon to go from 95% illuminated (Waxing Gibbous) to 100% illuminated (Full Moon) to 95% illuminated (Waning Gibbous). Therefore, it would appear that we had a Full Moon on the nights of July 15/16, July 16/17, July 17/18, July 18/19, and July 19/20. That's five nights in a row! Although, the actual Full Moon occurred on the night of July 17/18, and to be more specific, it occurred at exactly 359 AM (EDT) on July 18.
So according to Ayman's theory when we site the full moon of Ramadan we fast all of the days following 95 percent illumination waxing to 95 percent illumination waning. I assume predertermiend calendars can be used for thse caculations on cloudy days, and there is pobably leeway for people to witness a full moon from their own perspective (possibly beginning or ending the fast at 92% illumination or 94% for example).
I still have an issue with Ramadan as red. But I want to clarify this above point in the theory. Thanks.
My second inquiry
Accoding to 936 has God been counting 12 full moons instead of the 13 that he created since he created the heavens and the earth. Don't you see the problem there?
I want to note that this question is not an invitation to attack my conclusions on the issue. So if you feel tempted, resist. It will be obvious that you are just looking for a fight. I just want to see the logic that deals with the problem exemplified in the above question when we see shahr as full moon in the Quran's context
These are quite simple. You should be able to quote our statements and give answers to them point by point. Please don't continue to dodge answering these questions as you are putting your integrity and the consistency of your conclusions in doubt. We just want to see how you have worked out some of the details so we can be more clear on what you believe. Isn't that fair?
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
Unfortunately that was not an answer to Nun's questions or to mine. Saying that your understanding is the best and how come we don't criticize others is not exactly an answer to our questions. Did we ask you if your opinion was the best? No. Did we ask about others' traditional/dogmatic opinions here? Couldn't I claim the same thing about your fierce criticsim of my conclusions? I believe my questions are more fitting Quranically than yours, but that is not the point. So please don't try to turn that into an argument. I'm not criticizing your conclusion here or comparing them to mine, I just want some clarification. It hoenstly seems like you are trying to avoid our questons on purpose. Why? Because this is the second time we've asked you these straight up questions with no criticism at all of your conclusions. So please answer our questions. I'll quote them below. In your next reply I hope to see some straight up no nonsense answers to these specific questions.
Nun's question which she summarized for youListen Anwar, I don?t have time to spoon feed you the answers to questions that have been answered many times on this and other threads. Just use the search function of the forum. In fact, Nun has already answered the questions for himself here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597055.msg177151#msg177151
Finally, if you don?t have time to use the search function or read Nun?s own answer to his own questions then answer the following easy question and you will know the answer yourself
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (222
My first inquiry
I didn't see a question in your long copy and paste.
The scorching full-moon doesn't appear red except when it rises above the horizon after sunset. The "red moon" is an optical phenomenon, it is not just about the moon being full. It is about it also rising over the horizon and taking the lowest path which makes it appear more red than any other full-moon. You also ignore that the red color of this full moon and the fact that our brains are naturally wired to make it appear larger makes it easier to observe its symmetry than other white full moons (This is why warning lights are red or orange because bright white lights blind the observer). Just try to go out and observe the scorching full-moon for yourself the next time and verify things with your own eyes instead of your armchair quarterbacking. If anything, it will help you get some fresh air and get away from the city and get in touch with nature.
My second inquiry
Accoding to 936 has God been counting 12 full moons instead of the 13 that he created since he created the heavens and the earth. Don't you see the problem there?The only problem I see is your ignorance of what counting means as opposed to an absolute number. If an absolute number is meant then how many full-moons or Anwar 30-day months have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth? Billions.
These are quite simple. You should be able to quote our statements and give answers to them point by point. Please don't continue to dodge answering these questions as you are putting your integrity and the consistency of your conclusions in doubt. We just want to see how you have worked out some of the details so we can be more clear on what you believe. Isn't that fair?
OK fair enough. But next time use the search function first and then if you still can't find the answer ask nicely.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Listen Anwar, I don?t have time to spoon feed you the answers to questions that have been answered many times on this and other threads. Just use the search function of the forum. In fact, Nun has already answered the questions for himself here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597055.msg177151#msg177151
Finally, if you don?t have time to use the search function or read Nun?s own answer to his own questions then answer the following easy question and you will know the answer yourself
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (222
Not so fast, I only agreed that full moon/menstrual cycle is a possibility for that verse and never realized at the time that the whole theory is inconsistent and breaks down if day of event is the actual full moon and full moon makes absolutely NO SENSE in other verses.
Now, don't run away and answer the questions pertaining to date of a full moon Oct 14, 2008
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
IF you cannot answer or are clueless how your theory is applied in practice and when to start counting then say so.
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Peace Nun,
Not so fast, I only agreed that full moon/menstrual cycle is a possibility for that verse and never realized at the time that the whole theory is inconsistent and breaks down if day of event is the actual full moon and full moon makes absolutely NO SENSE in other verses.
Now, don't run away and answer the questions pertaining to date of a full moon Oct 14, 2008
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
IF you cannot answer or are clueless how your theory is applied in practice and when to start counting then say so.As I said, figure it yourself based on the answer to this question
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (222
If you are not intelligent enough to answer the above question on your own then you have bigger problems to worry about and I doubt that spoon feeding you the answers will help.
Peace,
Ayman
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Ayman,
WTF? I'm uterrly perplexed by your response. Don't be rude, and don't ask me to sift through all those posts, search option or not, it has nothing to do with anything. Just answer the questions. What is your problem? You should be able to spit them out at the drop of a dime. Maybe I need to be spoon-fed. Ok, I admit, I want you to spoon-feed me, but it is for my edification. So what is the problem? Even if you have to spoon feed, I don't see that these questions are so difficult or complicated for that spoon-feeding to be bothersome for you. 2228 firstly has to do with a woman waiting for 3 of her menstruations to pass befire being free to mary again. Now whereas I can admit that this answers the first 2 questions concerning a woman after divorce, or a woman after being widowed (problem solved there, because shahr is not the word used in these instances), it has nothing to do with full moons and it does not explain the following questions
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)Secondly come my questions. Since I posted alot and you obviously did not want to read what I posted. Let me put it to you like this
QUESTION 1
Any full moon but in particular the full moon around the summer solstice (in your case the red full moon) lasts from atleast 95% illumination waxing to 95% illumination waning. Correct? So during your concept of Ramadan do we fast the days that follow these stages of the moon? Simple question. I have no clue why you started explaining the Red Moon and its psychological implications and how it is like a stoplight. Because that ceratinly was not my question.As for this comment
Just try to go out and observe the scorching full-moon for yourself the next time and verify things with your own eyes instead of your armchair quarterbacking. If anything, it will help you get some fresh air and get away from the city and get in touch with nature.I found this hilarious, although way off in left field. Although it does show your need to attack me no matter what. How do you know I'm not in the country-side right now? Or how do you know I'm not a fan of camping or that I don't go spend time in nature? As a matter of fact why are you making assumptions about my personal life when that has nothing to do with the topic? You don't have to answer those questions. They are rhetorical. Please, just answer the ones in bold.
QUESTION 2
In 936, even following your very strict interpretation of 3iddah as counting (which I'm not saying is wrong, although a bit restrictive), God is counting. So why would he make 13 full moons and not count the 13th one that he made since he created the heavens and the earth?This was your answer
The only problem I see is your ignorance of what counting means as opposed to an absolute number. If an absolute number is meant then how many full-moons or Anwar 30-day months have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth? Billions.
Unfortunately this is not an answer but an attempt to attack me when I am not attacking you but rather asking your honest opinion on this issue. If billions of 30 day -shahr's have passed since the creation of the heavens and the earth why is that a problem? The whole point is that God created 12 and has been counting the ones that he created. When He starts ignoring the ones (in this case the 13th ones) he created that creates a logical problem.
sun Godbless,
AnwarPlease don't be stubborn and drag this conversation into the ground. You can answer these questions in only 2 paragraphs if you wanted to. So please just answer these questions for God and goodness sake.
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Peace Anwar,
WTF? I'm uterrly perplexed by your response. Don't be rude, and don't ask me to sift through all those posts, search option or not, it has nothing to do with anything. Just answer the questions. What is your problem? You should be able to spit them out at the drop of a dime. Maybe I need to be spoon-fed. Ok, I admit, I want you to spoon-feed me, but it is for my edification. So what is the problem? Even if you have to spoon feed, I don't see that these questions are so difficult or complicated for that spoon-feeding to be bothersome for you. 2228 firstly has to do with a woman waiting for 3 of her menstruations to pass befire being free to mary again. Now whereas I can admit that this answers the first 2 questions concerning a woman after divorce, or a woman after being widowed (problem solved there, because shahr is not the word used in these instances), it has nothing to do with full moons and it does not explain the following questions
Great. So you see how easy this was and you were able to answer most of the questions on your own by answering 2228 and seeing that the way we count time periods based on menstruations is the same way we count time periods based full-moons we count them based on events. If you search the forum on "full-moon" and "menstruation" you will see this answer repeated at least tens of times.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492) The days between two full-moons.
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226) The days until four full-moons pass.Secondly come my questions. Since I posted alot and you obviously did not want to read what I posted. Let me put it to you like this
QUESTION 1
Any full moon but in particular the full moon around the summer solstice (in your case the red full moon) lasts from atleast 95% illumination waxing to 95% illumination waning. Correct?No. The actual full-moon lasts only one second and it may not even be above the horizon or during the night so you may not even see it at all.
This is why I said that we are concerned about the optical phenomenon of the symmetric red full-moon that can only take place at night after the moon rises. When an ancient Arabs said "I saw the scorching full-moon" he didn't mean the astronomical full-moon obtained by calculations but is below the horizon. He meant the full-moon that he saw taking the lowest path accross the horizon and appearing red and bigger to him. It appears red for the same reason that sunsets appear red, light diffraction in low altitudes. It is thus much easier to make out in terms of symmetry than the other full-moons. Therefore, 95% illumination will be immediately apparent as not the "scorching full-moon" and the correct one will be easy to witness. This is why in Chapter 84, we are told in 8416-18 about the red color (due to light diffraction), the night, and the moon when it becomes perfectly symmetric.
So during your concept of Ramadan do we fast the days that follow these stages of the moon?
Yes and I have given the nights where the scorching full-moon was or is to be observed from 2005-2010 in one of the above posts. It is not the 95% illuminated one as I explained above.
Simple question. I have no clue why you started explaining the Red Moon and its psychological implications and how it is like a stoplight. Because that ceratinly was not my question.
Because it is about how the full-moon appeared to ancient arabs. It is not about going on a web site and downloading a calendar of the moon calculations and copying and pasting it.
As for this comment
I found this hilarious, although way off in left field. Although it does show your need to attack me no matter what. How do you know I'm not in the country-side right now? Or how do you know I'm not a fan of camping or that I don't go spend time in nature? As a matter of fact why are you making assumptions about my personal life when that has nothing to do with the topic? You don't have to answer those questions. They are rhetorical.Good for you. So you have no excuse not to witness the scorching full-moon the next time around and verify things with your own eyes.
Please, just answer the ones in bold.
QUESTION 2
In 936, even following your very strict interpretation of 3iddah as counting (which I'm not saying is wrong, although a bit restrictive), God is counting. So why would he make 13 full moons and not count the 13th one that he made since he created the heavens and the earth?
This was your answer
Unfortunately this is not an answer but an attempt to attack me when I am not attacking you but rather asking your honest opinion on this issue. If billions of 30 day -shahr's have passed since the creation of the heavens and the earth why is that a problem? The whole point is that God created 12 and has been counting the ones that he created. When He starts ignoring the ones (in this case the 13th ones) he created that creates a logical problem.The god didn't create 12 or 13 moons. There is only one moon and this is in how we count a property of the moon not the actual moon. The problem is that the absolute number as you acknowledge above is in the billions. So this cannot be what is talked about and indeed this confirms that there is a difference between an absolute number and the act of counting. Counting by definition is counting out of a certain set or population. So when we are told to count 12, it doesn't matter if we are counting out of the population of billions or 13. We are to count 12 this is all. Also, in counting we need to know the set that we are counting out of. In this case, the set is clearly the total population of full-moons in a year. This will mostly be twelve but about every three years will be 13 but we always count 12 and skip the 13th. This is the only fool proof and perfect way to have lunar divisions within a solar year while automatically maintaining the seasons in sync. If you have a better way then share it. Your way completely ignores the lunar cycle and is not as elelgant and automated as this.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Great. So you see how easy this was and you were able to answer most of the questions on your own by answering 2228 and seeing that the way we count time periods based on menstruations is the same way we count time periods based full-moons we count them based on events. If you search the forum on "full-moon" and "menstruation" you will see this answer repeated at least tens of times.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492) The days between two full-moons.
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226) The days until four full-moon passListen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
No. The actual full-moon lasts only one second and it may not even be above the horizon or during the night so you may not even see it at all.
This is why I said that we are concerned about the optical phenomenon of the symmetric red full-moon that can only take place at night after the moon rises. When an ancient Arabs said "I saw the scorching full-moon" he didn't mean the astronomical full-moon obtained by calculations but is below the horizon. He meant the full-moon that he saw taking the lowest path accross the horizon and appearing red and bigger to him. It appears red for the same reason that sunsets appear red, light diffraction in low altitudes. It is thus much easier to make out in terms of symmetry than the other full-moons. Therefore, 95% illumination will be immediately apparent as not the "scorching full-moon" and the correct one will be easy to witness. This is why in Chapter 84, we are told in 8416-18 about the red color (due to light diffraction), the night, and the moon when it becomes perfectly symmetric.
I know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
The god didn't create 12 or 13 moons. There is only one moon and this is in how we count a property of the moon not the actual moon. The problem is that the absolute number as you acknowledge above is in the billions. So this cannot be what is talked about and indeed this confirms that there is a difference between an absolute number and the act of counting. Counting by definition is counting out of a certain set or population. So when we are told to count 12, it doesn't matter if we are counting out of the population of billions or 13. We are to count 12 this is all. Also, in counting we need to know the set that we are counting out of. In this case, the set is clearly the total population of full-moons in a year. This will mostly be twelve but about every three years will be 13 but we always count 12 and skip the 13th. This is the only fool proof and perfect way to have lunar divisions within a solar year while automatically maintaining the seasons in sync. If you have a better way then share it. Your way completely ignores the lunar cycle and is not as elelgant and automated as this.
Are you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 936 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 936 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon
936 Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
(936)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 936 we can discuss Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Ayman,
You did not answer if you count or not the full moon of the date of the event.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492) The days between two full-moons.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
Quran says to fast 2 months!A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226) The days until four full-moons pass.
IF date of event is day before a full moon
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysIF date of event is day after full moon
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 daysINCONSISTENT!
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Quran says he must fast 4 months!
4120 Until when they came to it! Their hearing, and their eye sights/understanding, and their skins testified/witnessed on them because what they were making/doing.
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Peace Nun,
You did not answer if you count or not the full moon of the date of the event.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
Quran says to fast 2 months!I thought that you were asking to find out what the great reading says. If you already know then why ask? As I said, just tell us what your timing is for the fast and the restriction and we can compare it to what I have and what Anwar is proposing and see which understanding is best.
IF date of event is day before a full moon
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 days
IF date of event is day after full moon
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days
INCONSISTENT!
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.Same as per 2228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days
IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 days
Wow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.Quran says he must fast 4 months!
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Anwar,
Listen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
Good, I am glad this issue is behind us.
I know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 8418. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
Are you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 936 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 936 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon
936 Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
(936)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 936 we can discuss Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Same as per 2228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days
IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 days
Wow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Yes I do not know every thing the Quran says.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
I know the length of a day is dawn to sunset; a night sunset to dawn.
I know the length of a year encompasses a number of days and nights.
1 year = 365.242199 days
I know that shahr is a period of time and still do not know the length of this time.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
1 solar month = 30.4368499 days
As you can see they never exactly equate else what is .242199 days?
A calendar such as the Egyptian 12 x 30 day months and 360 days/year seems plausible or something similar to it which sync up every 19 lunar/solar years perhaps.
Finally, I am not too proud to say I do not know exactly this timing/calendar and researching.
Peace
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Peace all,
I agree as well that all of the insults and talking down can and should stop. None of this is PERSONAL. If the god tells us that we should argue/ debate with the people of the book in a way that is better 'ahsan' then that's what we should definitely do with each other. If we get personal about discussing opinions about the great reading then maybe if we are on the truth and correct understanding we would turn away others from it just because of our behavior, that's not acceptable. Didn't the god say to His prophet 'So it is by a mercy from the god that you were lenient for them and if you were stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from around you. So pardon them and forgive them and consult them in the affair..' 3159 I'm just giving this as a reminder, verily the reminder benefits the believers.
To Nun,
Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
We never said that the word 'shahr' is in 2228 and we know that it isn't. What we were comparing, to aid in coming to the correct conclusion about the meaning of 'shahr', is that the menstrual cycle is also used as a MARKER to start and stop a time period JUST LIKE a 'full moon' can be used. The topic is the same, divorce. If we were talking only about divorce right now and we bring all of the verses, we will have this one and 654. One mentions counting an iddah by menstrual cycles and one mentions counting an iddah by 'shahr'. I believe in the consistency of the god's words and that He has a good reason to choose the words He does to express His laws. If someone doesn't believe that the god's words are consistent then they will never see this connection.
So when we want to check how does this counting work this is where it will start (in the minimum case)
A menstruating woman (222 is divorced and her cycle begins the next day, she waits (counting 3 cycles) 2 months minimum
A non-menstruating woman (654) is divorced and the 'full moon' is sighted the next day, she waits (counting 3 full moons) 2 months minimum
I must add this here before continuing the similarity between menstrual cycle and full moon is that CLEARLY they are markers. The menstrual cycle itself only lasts about 3-7 or 10 days and the full moon is sighted in a night, NEITHER will be present for the whole time that the woman in either case waits. I mentioned this before. If someone can understand AUTOMATICALLY that the menstrual cycle is being used as a marker then how can one not understand that the full moon is being used as a marker as well, to start and stop a time period?
This is why we are using these verses as well, pertaining to divorce, it's the god who chose to use these words to help us understand what is correctly meant by 'shahr' in the reading. Do we think that the god doesn't know that there are several meanings out there for shahr? That He wouldn't for His sincere servants then give them clues from His words which meaning He means?
With that said, if we now look at, in the minimum case, a woman from 654 and we take 'shahr' to mean 'month' we get she's divorced and the next new month begins the next day (she counts 3 months) she waits; 3 MONTHS minimum
Can everyone see the discrepancy here created by using 'month'? That's why the question was asked why would there be this discrepancy in the god's book if He intended shahr to mean 'month'? Why should the women of 654 automatically in the minimum case wait longer than those with a menstrual cycle? Can you tell me that we cannot use verse 2228 when the topic of divorce is the same? Why should I choose a meaning that creates this kind of discrepancy in the first place when full moon is an accepted meaning of the word shahr and keeps the verses consistent?
If anyone would have a bias towards 'month' it would be me, I was hard core salafi for 14 years but after the god showed me the truth then that's all that I want, that's all I ever wanted. I never knew until lately that 'shahr' can mean full moon and once I found out it automatically made verse 2185 make sense to me. With the word month, 'witnessing a month' makes no sense nor do I like that the words (new cresent of) are added in such translations. But this is me. However, as I continuing studying and the issue of fasting is being discussed and the core debate is about whether shahr should be full moon or month, I see arguments like the one above and that supports full moon to me, because I believe the god is consistent in His words.
We are not comparing a man's fasting of '4 months' to a menstrual cycle, we are saying that once we are convinced, by verses like 2185, 2228 that shahr means full moon and that works in all of the verses it's used in, we are saying that he counts '4 full moons' the full moons are markers again, and his wait in the minimum case would be 3 months as we call that time period in between. It could be any name we give it really but the actual waiting is the same and it's whatever time period falls in between those 4 full moons. If anyone has a problem with 'in between' then you have problem with 'in between' menstrual cycles and what will you do then???
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 654 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 936 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
To Anwar,
Can you please explain how do you understand verse 937 about the 'naseey'? This to me is also a strong refutation against shahr being 'month' when we take these two verses together.
Umm Tariq
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Peace all,
I would also like to set straight a dangerous trend by some. Just because I or anyone else agrees with 'shahr' being full moon doesn't mean we become Ayman's FOLLOWERS. I don't even know Ayman I only know him by his words, I've read many of his articles and also Layth's and many others. What's important to me is the strength of someone's position based on the reading NOT personalities. I may not even like Ayman in person but that doesn't take away from the strength of many of his positions for which I agree with some and I disagree with others. For example, I disagree with as-salat meaning 'learning connection' but he nonetheless presented a strong case and I respect that. So since I don't agree with him here, can I still be considered HIS FOLLOWER?
Even if I did agree, I am only trying to follow the god's commands, some of us will agree on some things and disagree on others we DO NOT become each other's FOLLOWERS for doing so. Just bring the facts. We all agree that pork is haraam to eat are we EACH OTHER'S FOLLOWERS for that or is that following the god's words and how clear they are?
PLEASE STOP all of the personal attacks and just stick to the facts. The truth is clear from falsehood.
Sincerely,
Umm Tariq -
Peace
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 654 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 936 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
No, we only get different counts when using full moon not month.
A month, day, year, etc., is a standard unit of time between TWO events not ONE event.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months
- Widows wait 4 months and ten days
- Men who take vows fast 4 months
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months
- Travel the earth 4 months
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
There is no contradiction unless telling someone...
If on date, fast 88 days else if on different date, fast 118 days
The # of days to fast is constant NOTHING to do with women?s menses (variable).
The next full moon is exactly October 14, 2008 404 P.M.
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
If all above shahr events happen on that day -- what then, count it or not if before/after 4pm?