Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Nun,
Not so fast, I only agreed that full moon/menstrual cycle is a possibility for that verse and never realized at the time that the whole theory is inconsistent and breaks down if day of event is the actual full moon and full moon makes absolutely NO SENSE in other verses.
Now, don't run away and answer the questions pertaining to date of a full moon Oct 14, 2008
A man dies -- exactly how many days does his wife wait? (2234)
A man divorces his wife (he is suspicious) exactly how many days does she wait? (654)
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)
IF you cannot answer or are clueless how your theory is applied in practice and when to start counting then say so.As I said, figure it yourself based on the answer to this question
A man divorces his wife exactly how many days does she wait? (222
If you are not intelligent enough to answer the above question on your own then you have bigger problems to worry about and I doubt that spoon feeding you the answers will help.
Peace,
Ayman
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Ayman,
WTF? I'm uterrly perplexed by your response. Don't be rude, and don't ask me to sift through all those posts, search option or not, it has nothing to do with anything. Just answer the questions. What is your problem? You should be able to spit them out at the drop of a dime. Maybe I need to be spoon-fed. Ok, I admit, I want you to spoon-feed me, but it is for my edification. So what is the problem? Even if you have to spoon feed, I don't see that these questions are so difficult or complicated for that spoon-feeding to be bothersome for you. 2228 firstly has to do with a woman waiting for 3 of her menstruations to pass befire being free to mary again. Now whereas I can admit that this answers the first 2 questions concerning a woman after divorce, or a woman after being widowed (problem solved there, because shahr is not the word used in these instances), it has nothing to do with full moons and it does not explain the following questions
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492)
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226)Secondly come my questions. Since I posted alot and you obviously did not want to read what I posted. Let me put it to you like this
QUESTION 1
Any full moon but in particular the full moon around the summer solstice (in your case the red full moon) lasts from atleast 95% illumination waxing to 95% illumination waning. Correct? So during your concept of Ramadan do we fast the days that follow these stages of the moon? Simple question. I have no clue why you started explaining the Red Moon and its psychological implications and how it is like a stoplight. Because that ceratinly was not my question.As for this comment
Just try to go out and observe the scorching full-moon for yourself the next time and verify things with your own eyes instead of your armchair quarterbacking. If anything, it will help you get some fresh air and get away from the city and get in touch with nature.I found this hilarious, although way off in left field. Although it does show your need to attack me no matter what. How do you know I'm not in the country-side right now? Or how do you know I'm not a fan of camping or that I don't go spend time in nature? As a matter of fact why are you making assumptions about my personal life when that has nothing to do with the topic? You don't have to answer those questions. They are rhetorical. Please, just answer the ones in bold.
QUESTION 2
In 936, even following your very strict interpretation of 3iddah as counting (which I'm not saying is wrong, although a bit restrictive), God is counting. So why would he make 13 full moons and not count the 13th one that he made since he created the heavens and the earth?This was your answer
The only problem I see is your ignorance of what counting means as opposed to an absolute number. If an absolute number is meant then how many full-moons or Anwar 30-day months have passed since the god created the heavens and the earth? Billions.
Unfortunately this is not an answer but an attempt to attack me when I am not attacking you but rather asking your honest opinion on this issue. If billions of 30 day -shahr's have passed since the creation of the heavens and the earth why is that a problem? The whole point is that God created 12 and has been counting the ones that he created. When He starts ignoring the ones (in this case the 13th ones) he created that creates a logical problem.
sun Godbless,
AnwarPlease don't be stubborn and drag this conversation into the ground. You can answer these questions in only 2 paragraphs if you wanted to. So please just answer these questions for God and goodness sake.
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Peace Anwar,
WTF? I'm uterrly perplexed by your response. Don't be rude, and don't ask me to sift through all those posts, search option or not, it has nothing to do with anything. Just answer the questions. What is your problem? You should be able to spit them out at the drop of a dime. Maybe I need to be spoon-fed. Ok, I admit, I want you to spoon-feed me, but it is for my edification. So what is the problem? Even if you have to spoon feed, I don't see that these questions are so difficult or complicated for that spoon-feeding to be bothersome for you. 2228 firstly has to do with a woman waiting for 3 of her menstruations to pass befire being free to mary again. Now whereas I can admit that this answers the first 2 questions concerning a woman after divorce, or a woman after being widowed (problem solved there, because shahr is not the word used in these instances), it has nothing to do with full moons and it does not explain the following questions
Great. So you see how easy this was and you were able to answer most of the questions on your own by answering 2228 and seeing that the way we count time periods based on menstruations is the same way we count time periods based full-moons we count them based on events. If you search the forum on "full-moon" and "menstruation" you will see this answer repeated at least tens of times.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492) The days between two full-moons.
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226) The days until four full-moons pass.Secondly come my questions. Since I posted alot and you obviously did not want to read what I posted. Let me put it to you like this
QUESTION 1
Any full moon but in particular the full moon around the summer solstice (in your case the red full moon) lasts from atleast 95% illumination waxing to 95% illumination waning. Correct?No. The actual full-moon lasts only one second and it may not even be above the horizon or during the night so you may not even see it at all.
This is why I said that we are concerned about the optical phenomenon of the symmetric red full-moon that can only take place at night after the moon rises. When an ancient Arabs said "I saw the scorching full-moon" he didn't mean the astronomical full-moon obtained by calculations but is below the horizon. He meant the full-moon that he saw taking the lowest path accross the horizon and appearing red and bigger to him. It appears red for the same reason that sunsets appear red, light diffraction in low altitudes. It is thus much easier to make out in terms of symmetry than the other full-moons. Therefore, 95% illumination will be immediately apparent as not the "scorching full-moon" and the correct one will be easy to witness. This is why in Chapter 84, we are told in 8416-18 about the red color (due to light diffraction), the night, and the moon when it becomes perfectly symmetric.
So during your concept of Ramadan do we fast the days that follow these stages of the moon?
Yes and I have given the nights where the scorching full-moon was or is to be observed from 2005-2010 in one of the above posts. It is not the 95% illuminated one as I explained above.
Simple question. I have no clue why you started explaining the Red Moon and its psychological implications and how it is like a stoplight. Because that ceratinly was not my question.
Because it is about how the full-moon appeared to ancient arabs. It is not about going on a web site and downloading a calendar of the moon calculations and copying and pasting it.
As for this comment
I found this hilarious, although way off in left field. Although it does show your need to attack me no matter what. How do you know I'm not in the country-side right now? Or how do you know I'm not a fan of camping or that I don't go spend time in nature? As a matter of fact why are you making assumptions about my personal life when that has nothing to do with the topic? You don't have to answer those questions. They are rhetorical.Good for you. So you have no excuse not to witness the scorching full-moon the next time around and verify things with your own eyes.
Please, just answer the ones in bold.
QUESTION 2
In 936, even following your very strict interpretation of 3iddah as counting (which I'm not saying is wrong, although a bit restrictive), God is counting. So why would he make 13 full moons and not count the 13th one that he made since he created the heavens and the earth?
This was your answer
Unfortunately this is not an answer but an attempt to attack me when I am not attacking you but rather asking your honest opinion on this issue. If billions of 30 day -shahr's have passed since the creation of the heavens and the earth why is that a problem? The whole point is that God created 12 and has been counting the ones that he created. When He starts ignoring the ones (in this case the 13th ones) he created that creates a logical problem.The god didn't create 12 or 13 moons. There is only one moon and this is in how we count a property of the moon not the actual moon. The problem is that the absolute number as you acknowledge above is in the billions. So this cannot be what is talked about and indeed this confirms that there is a difference between an absolute number and the act of counting. Counting by definition is counting out of a certain set or population. So when we are told to count 12, it doesn't matter if we are counting out of the population of billions or 13. We are to count 12 this is all. Also, in counting we need to know the set that we are counting out of. In this case, the set is clearly the total population of full-moons in a year. This will mostly be twelve but about every three years will be 13 but we always count 12 and skip the 13th. This is the only fool proof and perfect way to have lunar divisions within a solar year while automatically maintaining the seasons in sync. If you have a better way then share it. Your way completely ignores the lunar cycle and is not as elelgant and automated as this.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Great. So you see how easy this was and you were able to answer most of the questions on your own by answering 2228 and seeing that the way we count time periods based on menstruations is the same way we count time periods based full-moons we count them based on events. If you search the forum on "full-moon" and "menstruation" you will see this answer repeated at least tens of times.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492) The days between two full-moons.
A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226) The days until four full-moon passListen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
No. The actual full-moon lasts only one second and it may not even be above the horizon or during the night so you may not even see it at all.
This is why I said that we are concerned about the optical phenomenon of the symmetric red full-moon that can only take place at night after the moon rises. When an ancient Arabs said "I saw the scorching full-moon" he didn't mean the astronomical full-moon obtained by calculations but is below the horizon. He meant the full-moon that he saw taking the lowest path accross the horizon and appearing red and bigger to him. It appears red for the same reason that sunsets appear red, light diffraction in low altitudes. It is thus much easier to make out in terms of symmetry than the other full-moons. Therefore, 95% illumination will be immediately apparent as not the "scorching full-moon" and the correct one will be easy to witness. This is why in Chapter 84, we are told in 8416-18 about the red color (due to light diffraction), the night, and the moon when it becomes perfectly symmetric.
I know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
The god didn't create 12 or 13 moons. There is only one moon and this is in how we count a property of the moon not the actual moon. The problem is that the absolute number as you acknowledge above is in the billions. So this cannot be what is talked about and indeed this confirms that there is a difference between an absolute number and the act of counting. Counting by definition is counting out of a certain set or population. So when we are told to count 12, it doesn't matter if we are counting out of the population of billions or 13. We are to count 12 this is all. Also, in counting we need to know the set that we are counting out of. In this case, the set is clearly the total population of full-moons in a year. This will mostly be twelve but about every three years will be 13 but we always count 12 and skip the 13th. This is the only fool proof and perfect way to have lunar divisions within a solar year while automatically maintaining the seasons in sync. If you have a better way then share it. Your way completely ignores the lunar cycle and is not as elelgant and automated as this.
Are you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 936 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 936 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon
936 Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
(936)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 936 we can discuss Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Ayman,
You did not answer if you count or not the full moon of the date of the event.
A man accidentally kills another believer -- exactly how many days must he fast? (492) The days between two full-moons.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
Quran says to fast 2 months!A man vows not to have sex with his wife -- exactly how many days must he wait? (2226) The days until four full-moons pass.
IF date of event is day before a full moon
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysIF date of event is day after full moon
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 daysINCONSISTENT!
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Quran says he must fast 4 months!
4120 Until when they came to it! Their hearing, and their eye sights/understanding, and their skins testified/witnessed on them because what they were making/doing.
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Peace Nun,
You did not answer if you count or not the full moon of the date of the event.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
Quran says to fast 2 months!I thought that you were asking to find out what the great reading says. If you already know then why ask? As I said, just tell us what your timing is for the fast and the restriction and we can compare it to what I have and what Anwar is proposing and see which understanding is best.
IF date of event is day before a full moon
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 days
IF date of event is day after full moon
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days
INCONSISTENT!
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.Same as per 2228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days
IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 days
Wow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.Quran says he must fast 4 months!
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Anwar,
Listen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
Good, I am glad this issue is behind us.
I know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 8418. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
Are you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 936 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 936 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon
936 Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
(936)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 936 we can discuss Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Same as per 2228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days
IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 days
Wow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Yes I do not know every thing the Quran says.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
I know the length of a day is dawn to sunset; a night sunset to dawn.
I know the length of a year encompasses a number of days and nights.
1 year = 365.242199 days
I know that shahr is a period of time and still do not know the length of this time.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
1 solar month = 30.4368499 days
As you can see they never exactly equate else what is .242199 days?
A calendar such as the Egyptian 12 x 30 day months and 360 days/year seems plausible or something similar to it which sync up every 19 lunar/solar years perhaps.
Finally, I am not too proud to say I do not know exactly this timing/calendar and researching.
Peace
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Peace all,
I agree as well that all of the insults and talking down can and should stop. None of this is PERSONAL. If the god tells us that we should argue/ debate with the people of the book in a way that is better 'ahsan' then that's what we should definitely do with each other. If we get personal about discussing opinions about the great reading then maybe if we are on the truth and correct understanding we would turn away others from it just because of our behavior, that's not acceptable. Didn't the god say to His prophet 'So it is by a mercy from the god that you were lenient for them and if you were stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from around you. So pardon them and forgive them and consult them in the affair..' 3159 I'm just giving this as a reminder, verily the reminder benefits the believers.
To Nun,
Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
We never said that the word 'shahr' is in 2228 and we know that it isn't. What we were comparing, to aid in coming to the correct conclusion about the meaning of 'shahr', is that the menstrual cycle is also used as a MARKER to start and stop a time period JUST LIKE a 'full moon' can be used. The topic is the same, divorce. If we were talking only about divorce right now and we bring all of the verses, we will have this one and 654. One mentions counting an iddah by menstrual cycles and one mentions counting an iddah by 'shahr'. I believe in the consistency of the god's words and that He has a good reason to choose the words He does to express His laws. If someone doesn't believe that the god's words are consistent then they will never see this connection.
So when we want to check how does this counting work this is where it will start (in the minimum case)
A menstruating woman (222 is divorced and her cycle begins the next day, she waits (counting 3 cycles) 2 months minimum
A non-menstruating woman (654) is divorced and the 'full moon' is sighted the next day, she waits (counting 3 full moons) 2 months minimum
I must add this here before continuing the similarity between menstrual cycle and full moon is that CLEARLY they are markers. The menstrual cycle itself only lasts about 3-7 or 10 days and the full moon is sighted in a night, NEITHER will be present for the whole time that the woman in either case waits. I mentioned this before. If someone can understand AUTOMATICALLY that the menstrual cycle is being used as a marker then how can one not understand that the full moon is being used as a marker as well, to start and stop a time period?
This is why we are using these verses as well, pertaining to divorce, it's the god who chose to use these words to help us understand what is correctly meant by 'shahr' in the reading. Do we think that the god doesn't know that there are several meanings out there for shahr? That He wouldn't for His sincere servants then give them clues from His words which meaning He means?
With that said, if we now look at, in the minimum case, a woman from 654 and we take 'shahr' to mean 'month' we get she's divorced and the next new month begins the next day (she counts 3 months) she waits; 3 MONTHS minimum
Can everyone see the discrepancy here created by using 'month'? That's why the question was asked why would there be this discrepancy in the god's book if He intended shahr to mean 'month'? Why should the women of 654 automatically in the minimum case wait longer than those with a menstrual cycle? Can you tell me that we cannot use verse 2228 when the topic of divorce is the same? Why should I choose a meaning that creates this kind of discrepancy in the first place when full moon is an accepted meaning of the word shahr and keeps the verses consistent?
If anyone would have a bias towards 'month' it would be me, I was hard core salafi for 14 years but after the god showed me the truth then that's all that I want, that's all I ever wanted. I never knew until lately that 'shahr' can mean full moon and once I found out it automatically made verse 2185 make sense to me. With the word month, 'witnessing a month' makes no sense nor do I like that the words (new cresent of) are added in such translations. But this is me. However, as I continuing studying and the issue of fasting is being discussed and the core debate is about whether shahr should be full moon or month, I see arguments like the one above and that supports full moon to me, because I believe the god is consistent in His words.
We are not comparing a man's fasting of '4 months' to a menstrual cycle, we are saying that once we are convinced, by verses like 2185, 2228 that shahr means full moon and that works in all of the verses it's used in, we are saying that he counts '4 full moons' the full moons are markers again, and his wait in the minimum case would be 3 months as we call that time period in between. It could be any name we give it really but the actual waiting is the same and it's whatever time period falls in between those 4 full moons. If anyone has a problem with 'in between' then you have problem with 'in between' menstrual cycles and what will you do then???
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 654 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 936 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
To Anwar,
Can you please explain how do you understand verse 937 about the 'naseey'? This to me is also a strong refutation against shahr being 'month' when we take these two verses together.
Umm Tariq
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Peace all,
I would also like to set straight a dangerous trend by some. Just because I or anyone else agrees with 'shahr' being full moon doesn't mean we become Ayman's FOLLOWERS. I don't even know Ayman I only know him by his words, I've read many of his articles and also Layth's and many others. What's important to me is the strength of someone's position based on the reading NOT personalities. I may not even like Ayman in person but that doesn't take away from the strength of many of his positions for which I agree with some and I disagree with others. For example, I disagree with as-salat meaning 'learning connection' but he nonetheless presented a strong case and I respect that. So since I don't agree with him here, can I still be considered HIS FOLLOWER?
Even if I did agree, I am only trying to follow the god's commands, some of us will agree on some things and disagree on others we DO NOT become each other's FOLLOWERS for doing so. Just bring the facts. We all agree that pork is haraam to eat are we EACH OTHER'S FOLLOWERS for that or is that following the god's words and how clear they are?
PLEASE STOP all of the personal attacks and just stick to the facts. The truth is clear from falsehood.
Sincerely,
Umm Tariq -
Peace
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 654 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 936 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
No, we only get different counts when using full moon not month.
A month, day, year, etc., is a standard unit of time between TWO events not ONE event.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months
- Widows wait 4 months and ten days
- Men who take vows fast 4 months
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months
- Travel the earth 4 months
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
There is no contradiction unless telling someone...
If on date, fast 88 days else if on different date, fast 118 days
The # of days to fast is constant NOTHING to do with women?s menses (variable).
The next full moon is exactly October 14, 2008 404 P.M.
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
If all above shahr events happen on that day -- what then, count it or not if before/after 4pm?
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Peace,
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Quran says he must fast 4 months
!Nun, you are right that it is seems inconsistent that the fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on the date of the vow. But that is how Ayman and a few others here see God commanding it. So there is no point in arguing. In their minds it depends on the full moon and if the days vary, the days vary. Forcing this issue becomes beating a dead horse, almost like how I've shown that 365 days has 12 30 day-shahrs in it and 5 or 6 days doesn't count as a shahr in any way shape or form, but it has been repeated to me over and over again that God would have counted the fraction which is insignifiant to the the count of 30 day periods. So now you see their opinion, I would just let it go. I know it seems inconsistent but they have their reason for allowing this inconsistency based on how they interpret the word shahr. As for if the vow is taken on a full moon, I guess they count that full moon.
Ayman,
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 8418. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
What was this for? I still dont believe that Ramadan has anything to do with the color red. So there's no need to encourage me to go out and see this red full moon as if that is going to convince me about your conclusion on the subject.
Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
It seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 936? No. But just as it is obvious that God created everything I don't think he has to tell us that he created certain years with 13 full moons in them. So if he created certain years with 13 full moons in them why is He only counting 12 of them in these years? I don't know why you are trying to explain the concept of counting to me, when I am accepting the sole definition of counting for 3iddah in the context of 936 for the sake of meeting your on common ground when it comes to this verse.
The whole point here is that God is not telling us to count 12 full moons in that verse. In 936 GOD is counting 12 full moons each year despite the 13 full moons that he created (it is obvious that he created this natural occurrence of 13 full moons) some years. According to 936 he has been doing this since he created the heavens and the earth. So my question is, if we see it your way why is GOD counting 12 full moons each year when he created some years with a natural occurence of 13 full moons? Why is he not counting what he created? Is this a hard question? Why do you keep making it an issue of humans counting when there is no command in that passage, and it is God who is apparently not counting what he created, according to your understanding.
I even quoted the verse for you and all to see.
Please stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . . counting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 936 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 936 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
It seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 936? No.
Here is what you said
And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons
Here is what I replied
Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"?
So you are essentially asking me to explain ?how God created 13 full moons? and then when I do exactly as you asked and explain that in fact he didn?t you get all angry with me! Please stop wasting everyone?s time by being so defensive without reading your own posts.
Please stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . .
Just because you don?t understand some things, it doesn?t mean that they have nothing to do with anything. . . If you really think they have nothing to do with anything then just ignore them and stop asking me about them in the same way that I have been ignoring many of your irrelevant remarks (in this post and prior posts) so that the discussion can move on for the benefit of the reader.
counting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 936 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 936 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Counting is about counting out of a population or a set. You seem to be trying to invent your own Anwar definition of the concept of counting so that you can turn it again into an absolute number. So after admitting above that ?3iddah? meaning ?count? is not wrong, you go back to square one and equate the concept with an absolute number, which is the wrong position that you started with in the first place. You keep going in circles saying that 936 is talking about an absolute number while the god is telling us that it is just a count. Moreover, when we count like the god has set the count and as per the clear meaning of count (counting out of a population or set), the lunar cycle is automatically synchronized with the solar cycle and we accomplish the purpose of 936-37. If you read carefully the entire passage of 936-37, then you will see that the whole context of counting 12 (out of 12 or 13) is about not violating the hunting restrictions. I hope I am clear and please don?t ask me any more questions that assume equating count with an absolute number.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Ayman please be serious and answer the question. You are being very disingenuious here.
Here's the question again. I will limit my commentary so that you can answer this question which you have not answered
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 936? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace everyone,
Let me rephrase the same idea in another way which might help everyone, including progod, to understand the concept better.
Suppose God had said "The count of the full-moons with God is thirteen full-moons", then it would have meant that we should be able to count 13 full-moons in every solar year, which is impossible and would have falsified al-quran. The second interpretation could have been that the year is lunar and the count of full-moons in that lunar year is always 13 full-moons, which would have contradicted 1712 and would have caused the restricted full-moons and therefore the period of hunting restriction to be out of sync with the seasons. This would have nullified the whole purpose of hunting restriction. The hunting restriction makes sense only if it is always in a certain season because the breeding season of wild animals is always in the same season in the specific hemisphere.
As you can see, the count of full-moons with God could not be 13 full-moons because of the above reasons. However, if we always count only 12 full-moons in every solar year (which we will always be able to do), and do not count the 13th full-moon when it occurs, then
1 - There will be no contradictions in al-quran;
2 - The seasons will always be in sync with the respective full-moons, and the four restricted full-moons will always fall in the same season every year;
3 - The period of hunting restriction will always remain the same.Therefore, God does not count 13 full-moons but counts 12 full-moons.
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Peace Truthseeker,
Thank you for rephrasing the clear answer and making it even more clear.
Peace Anwar,
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 936? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
You didn't understand what I meant at all. I meant, if you use full moon in these respective verses you get one count and if THEN use month in these respective verses you get another count. In the minimum case, they do not EQUAL. I showed that in my previous post if you read the whole thing. Do you understand now what I was talking about? That's all.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months...wait 3 full moons = 2 months (in the minimum)
- Widows wait 4 months and ten days... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Men who take vows fast 4 months... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months... wait 2 full moons = 1 month (in the minimum)
- Travel the earth 4 months...travel for 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I have tackled your concept of month in all honesty but you seem to refuse to do that with full moon to really show it's inconsistency. The one time you tried you failed because the consistency of full moon automatically showed itself. We are going in circles here and so it seems that there is not much more to discuss.
Umm Tariq
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Ayman,
Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
Let me start by repeating the fact that 936 is a statement about God's count of the shahr and NOT a command on how we are to count shahr.
So for the sake of the conversation, I'll agree with that defintion of count. If we are counting we've got to be counting something. But let me remind all that a count can be a 1-1 relationship, like 12 out of 12 or 13 out of 13. But let's keep going.If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
I'll give you a general yes here. But I see that you are setting up these questions without recognizing that God is doing the counting in 936, not us.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
Yes.
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
To make this relevant to 936 (which everyone needs to read), if God is choosing to count 12 out of 13 than yes. But this is the problem. Why is God only counting 12 full moons in the years that he created 13 full moons?
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Lol. This is hilarious. All your questions were preconditioned that a human being is doing the counting and that 936 is a command to only count 12 shahr. I have been saying from the beginning that in 936 God is doing the counting and that this is not a command. Your whole theory is premised upon whether 936 is a command to the believers. But 936 is not a command to the believers. "The count of months with God" is explicitly saying that God has been doing the counting, not us. So why do you keep trying to phrase this in the context of human beings doing the counting? I understand that human beings can count only 12 out of a set of 13, and I understand that if God told us to do that then we are to do that. But God did not tell us to do that and 936 does not tell us to do that. 936 is explaining how GOD has been counting the shahr. So my question still goes unanswered. If God created some years with 13 full moons why has GOD been ingorning the 13th full moons he created during some years and couting only 12 when he created these 13 full moons in the first place?
Please do not repeat again that humans can easily count 12 full moons out of a set of 13. Because that is not the answer to my question. 936 is not a command for people to count anything. It is a statement about how God counts the shahr. So if God made certain years with 13 full-moons why has HE been ignoring the full-moons HE created in the first place to maintain the count as 12 full moons?
This is about the logic behind God's actions in 936. My question has nothing to do with human actions. It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
So please answer my question and stop dwelling on the defintion of count or the ability of people to count 12 out of 13 when told to. That is not what I'm having problems with. I'm having problems meshing your conclusions with God's statement that he has been counting 12 full-moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth when at the same time he created the heavens and the earth he also created certain years with 13 full moons. Why would he create something only to ignore it? That would imply that God has been ignoring a phenomenon that he created in the first place since the beginning. And why would he do that? That doesn't make much sense.
To answer my question please focus on the quran's statement of God's actions in 936 not human actions.
Godbless,
AnwarAnd siki, thanks for the gem comment, but no thanks for the bonkers comment. Maybe you should read my posts and try to understand what I'm saying. I assure you I am not going bonkers and this is a valid question that you and others should pay attention to.
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Peace Anwar,
It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
There are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 936 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 936 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 936 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 936-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
Peace,
Ayman