Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Anwar,
Listen, don't patronize or talk down to me. We're all adults here and it didn't take much to answer this question straight up. Besides that, I just wanted some clarification from you on the topic, not smart-allec comments. Nor did I expect to have to write 4 posts to get a straight answer out of you. All you had to do about 4 posts ago was state to me that it doesn't matter where in the lunar cycle you are exactly, you are to wait until the prescribed count of full-moons pass when you are to wait a certain amount of shahr. I would say thanks but I had to both endure your condescending language and write way too much to get an answer that I feel I just clarified better than you did. But because I try not to hold grudges thanks, for finally answering this question. The crazy part is this is Nun's question and not mine!
Good, I am glad this issue is behind us.
I know that the real full moon (100% illumination) only lasts for a second. But that is not practical now is it? You don't seem to understand the issue of 95 percent illumination. When the lunar cylce finds itself around the time of the solstice every lunar phase will be low in the horizon and hence reddish. My comments were directed towards WHEN we consider the moon to be full. I gave you the leeway to say that the moon can be considered full at 95% illumnination waxing to 95% illumination waning. But you seem to be denying that, which doesn't make much sense (your denial that is). The color will still be red throughout the night, no matter what, because it is the time of year where the moon will not rise very high above the horizon (which is what dictates the color). So why are you saying that 95% waxing illumination to 95% waning illumination of the moon around the solstice will not be apparent as a red full moon?
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 8418. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
Are you serious? Did I say that God created 12 or 13 moons? Is it not obvious that there is only 1 moon and we are talking about the number of full-moons that God counts? Again the issue in 936 is not about humans counting 12 shahr it is about God counting 12 shahr, and if we take that as full moon why is He counting only 12 full moons (even if it is every couple of years) when he created 13 in the first place? Let me repeat that. I am not talking about the number of moons in a year (. . .isn't this obvious?), but the number of full-moons in a year.
In conclusion, is this about elegance? Or automation (whatever you mean by that)? I don't think so. This is about Quranic accuracy. And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons but only skips the 13th full-moon every once and a while to change the natural count of the 13 that he made in the first place. I understand your claim that we human beings are capable of not counting the 13th full-moon every once and a while, but I don't understand how God creates 13 full moons in the first place and then HE only counts 12 of them some years. I will state probably for the fourth time here that the 3iddah in 936 is God's and that that passage is not an order to mankind. Everyone is free to read it for themselves. And we'll translate shahr as full-moon
936 Verily God's count of full-moons is 12 full-moons. in God's book/record/decree the day he created the heavens and the earth. There are 4 of them that are sacred/restricted. the upstanding way/religion/order/law , so do no injustice to each other during them . . . .
Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi ithna AAashara shahran fee kitabi Allahi yawma khalaqa alssamawati waalarda minha arbaAAatun hurumun thalika alddeenu alqayyimu fala tathlimoo feehinna anfusakum waqatiloo almushrikeena kaffatan kama yuqatiloonakum kaffatan waiAAlamoo anna Allaha maAAa almuttaqeena
(936)
It looks like you tried to confuse the discussion again by acting like I was talking about 12 or 13 moons, when it is obvious that we are not talking about the 1 moon, but rather how many full moons God has been counting since he created the heavens and the earth. If you weren't trying to cause confusion but got confused yourself, I can let bygones be bygones. But please don't interject things into the conversation that have nothing to do with anything.
As it pertains to 936 we can discuss Inna AAiddata alshshuhoori AAinda Allahi if you'd like, as this is the problematic Quranic phrase as it concerns your conclusions.Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
Same as per 2228 if menstruation cycle is 29.5 days and if the passage said to wait for 4 instead of 3 menstruations
IF date of divorce is day before a menstruation
lunar month x 3 = 88.5 days
IF date of divorce is day after a menstruation
lunar month x 4 = 118 days
Wow.
Same woman, same divorce, yet waiting period can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of divorce.Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
If you really know what "Quran says" then tell us when the 4 supposed "months" of the restriciton period are. Otherwise, you really don't know what the "Quran says".
Yes I do not know every thing the Quran says.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
I know the length of a day is dawn to sunset; a night sunset to dawn.
I know the length of a year encompasses a number of days and nights.
1 year = 365.242199 days
I know that shahr is a period of time and still do not know the length of this time.
1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
1 solar month = 30.4368499 days
As you can see they never exactly equate else what is .242199 days?
A calendar such as the Egyptian 12 x 30 day months and 360 days/year seems plausible or something similar to it which sync up every 19 lunar/solar years perhaps.
Finally, I am not too proud to say I do not know exactly this timing/calendar and researching.
Peace
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Peace all,
I agree as well that all of the insults and talking down can and should stop. None of this is PERSONAL. If the god tells us that we should argue/ debate with the people of the book in a way that is better 'ahsan' then that's what we should definitely do with each other. If we get personal about discussing opinions about the great reading then maybe if we are on the truth and correct understanding we would turn away others from it just because of our behavior, that's not acceptable. Didn't the god say to His prophet 'So it is by a mercy from the god that you were lenient for them and if you were stern and fierce of heart they would have dispersed from around you. So pardon them and forgive them and consult them in the affair..' 3159 I'm just giving this as a reminder, verily the reminder benefits the believers.
To Nun,
Please show where the word "shahr" is used in 2228?
In addition, why are you comparing a man to fast 4 months to women's menstrual cycle?
We never said that the word 'shahr' is in 2228 and we know that it isn't. What we were comparing, to aid in coming to the correct conclusion about the meaning of 'shahr', is that the menstrual cycle is also used as a MARKER to start and stop a time period JUST LIKE a 'full moon' can be used. The topic is the same, divorce. If we were talking only about divorce right now and we bring all of the verses, we will have this one and 654. One mentions counting an iddah by menstrual cycles and one mentions counting an iddah by 'shahr'. I believe in the consistency of the god's words and that He has a good reason to choose the words He does to express His laws. If someone doesn't believe that the god's words are consistent then they will never see this connection.
So when we want to check how does this counting work this is where it will start (in the minimum case)
A menstruating woman (222 is divorced and her cycle begins the next day, she waits (counting 3 cycles) 2 months minimum
A non-menstruating woman (654) is divorced and the 'full moon' is sighted the next day, she waits (counting 3 full moons) 2 months minimum
I must add this here before continuing the similarity between menstrual cycle and full moon is that CLEARLY they are markers. The menstrual cycle itself only lasts about 3-7 or 10 days and the full moon is sighted in a night, NEITHER will be present for the whole time that the woman in either case waits. I mentioned this before. If someone can understand AUTOMATICALLY that the menstrual cycle is being used as a marker then how can one not understand that the full moon is being used as a marker as well, to start and stop a time period?
This is why we are using these verses as well, pertaining to divorce, it's the god who chose to use these words to help us understand what is correctly meant by 'shahr' in the reading. Do we think that the god doesn't know that there are several meanings out there for shahr? That He wouldn't for His sincere servants then give them clues from His words which meaning He means?
With that said, if we now look at, in the minimum case, a woman from 654 and we take 'shahr' to mean 'month' we get she's divorced and the next new month begins the next day (she counts 3 months) she waits; 3 MONTHS minimum
Can everyone see the discrepancy here created by using 'month'? That's why the question was asked why would there be this discrepancy in the god's book if He intended shahr to mean 'month'? Why should the women of 654 automatically in the minimum case wait longer than those with a menstrual cycle? Can you tell me that we cannot use verse 2228 when the topic of divorce is the same? Why should I choose a meaning that creates this kind of discrepancy in the first place when full moon is an accepted meaning of the word shahr and keeps the verses consistent?
If anyone would have a bias towards 'month' it would be me, I was hard core salafi for 14 years but after the god showed me the truth then that's all that I want, that's all I ever wanted. I never knew until lately that 'shahr' can mean full moon and once I found out it automatically made verse 2185 make sense to me. With the word month, 'witnessing a month' makes no sense nor do I like that the words (new cresent of) are added in such translations. But this is me. However, as I continuing studying and the issue of fasting is being discussed and the core debate is about whether shahr should be full moon or month, I see arguments like the one above and that supports full moon to me, because I believe the god is consistent in His words.
We are not comparing a man's fasting of '4 months' to a menstrual cycle, we are saying that once we are convinced, by verses like 2185, 2228 that shahr means full moon and that works in all of the verses it's used in, we are saying that he counts '4 full moons' the full moons are markers again, and his wait in the minimum case would be 3 months as we call that time period in between. It could be any name we give it really but the actual waiting is the same and it's whatever time period falls in between those 4 full moons. If anyone has a problem with 'in between' then you have problem with 'in between' menstrual cycles and what will you do then???
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 654 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 936 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
To Anwar,
Can you please explain how do you understand verse 937 about the 'naseey'? This to me is also a strong refutation against shahr being 'month' when we take these two verses together.
Umm Tariq
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Peace all,
I would also like to set straight a dangerous trend by some. Just because I or anyone else agrees with 'shahr' being full moon doesn't mean we become Ayman's FOLLOWERS. I don't even know Ayman I only know him by his words, I've read many of his articles and also Layth's and many others. What's important to me is the strength of someone's position based on the reading NOT personalities. I may not even like Ayman in person but that doesn't take away from the strength of many of his positions for which I agree with some and I disagree with others. For example, I disagree with as-salat meaning 'learning connection' but he nonetheless presented a strong case and I respect that. So since I don't agree with him here, can I still be considered HIS FOLLOWER?
Even if I did agree, I am only trying to follow the god's commands, some of us will agree on some things and disagree on others we DO NOT become each other's FOLLOWERS for doing so. Just bring the facts. We all agree that pork is haraam to eat are we EACH OTHER'S FOLLOWERS for that or is that following the god's words and how clear they are?
PLEASE STOP all of the personal attacks and just stick to the facts. The truth is clear from falsehood.
Sincerely,
Umm Tariq -
Peace
Another point is that since we can all see that when we use full moon in the verses or month that we get different counts, so I don't believe that both can be used. One key verse is 2228 since the topic of divorce is the same as in 654 wherein 'shahr' is used.
Yes I do believe by logic/process of elimination that shahr does NOT mean full moon.
How can you eliminate 'full moon' when it produces this consistency with the verses that month doesn't? No problem in witnessing a full moon, no problem in using it as a marker like a menstrual cycle, their count can be exactly 12 like 936 says and not 12 point something, so what REALLY is the problem with 'full moon'?
No, we only get different counts when using full moon not month.
A month, day, year, etc., is a standard unit of time between TWO events not ONE event.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months
- Widows wait 4 months and ten days
- Men who take vows fast 4 months
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months
- Travel the earth 4 months
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
There is no contradiction unless telling someone...
If on date, fast 88 days else if on different date, fast 118 days
The # of days to fast is constant NOTHING to do with women?s menses (variable).
The next full moon is exactly October 14, 2008 404 P.M.
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
If all above shahr events happen on that day -- what then, count it or not if before/after 4pm?
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Peace,
Same man, same offense, yet fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on date of vow.
Quran says he must fast 4 months
!Nun, you are right that it is seems inconsistent that the fast can vary from 88 to 118 days depending on the date of the vow. But that is how Ayman and a few others here see God commanding it. So there is no point in arguing. In their minds it depends on the full moon and if the days vary, the days vary. Forcing this issue becomes beating a dead horse, almost like how I've shown that 365 days has 12 30 day-shahrs in it and 5 or 6 days doesn't count as a shahr in any way shape or form, but it has been repeated to me over and over again that God would have counted the fraction which is insignifiant to the the count of 30 day periods. So now you see their opinion, I would just let it go. I know it seems inconsistent but they have their reason for allowing this inconsistency based on how they interpret the word shahr. As for if the vow is taken on a full moon, I guess they count that full moon.
Ayman,
Listen man, the next scorching full-moon is the night of JULY 6, 2009. I suggest that you go out on July 4th, July 5th, and July 6th and see if you can see a difference between the % illumination on those days and make out which one is the one which is fully symmetric as per 8418. We can talk afterwards. Until you experience something yourself, then all this is just idle talk.
What was this for? I still dont believe that Ramadan has anything to do with the color red. So there's no need to encourage me to go out and see this red full moon as if that is going to convince me about your conclusion on the subject.
Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"? The god didn't create 12 full-moons or 12 moons or 25 crescents. It is only one that he created and it simply appears differently in different stages. The only stage that you can count 12 out of in a solar year is the full-moon. Counting means counting something out of a population. If I tell you to count 12 students, does this mean that there are only 12 students in the world? If I tell you to count 12 apples, does this mean that there are only 12 apples in the world since the god created the heavens and the earth? No, it means that if you have a basket with a billion apples, you only count 12. If you have a basket with 13 apples, you count 12 and skip the 13th. If you have a basket with 12 apples you count 12. How hard can this be?
It seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 936? No. But just as it is obvious that God created everything I don't think he has to tell us that he created certain years with 13 full moons in them. So if he created certain years with 13 full moons in them why is He only counting 12 of them in these years? I don't know why you are trying to explain the concept of counting to me, when I am accepting the sole definition of counting for 3iddah in the context of 936 for the sake of meeting your on common ground when it comes to this verse.
The whole point here is that God is not telling us to count 12 full moons in that verse. In 936 GOD is counting 12 full moons each year despite the 13 full moons that he created (it is obvious that he created this natural occurrence of 13 full moons) some years. According to 936 he has been doing this since he created the heavens and the earth. So my question is, if we see it your way why is GOD counting 12 full moons each year when he created some years with a natural occurence of 13 full moons? Why is he not counting what he created? Is this a hard question? Why do you keep making it an issue of humans counting when there is no command in that passage, and it is God who is apparently not counting what he created, according to your understanding.
I even quoted the verse for you and all to see.
Please stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . . counting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 936 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 936 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Anwar,
It seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 936? No.
Here is what you said
And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons
Here is what I replied
Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"?
So you are essentially asking me to explain ?how God created 13 full moons? and then when I do exactly as you asked and explain that in fact he didn?t you get all angry with me! Please stop wasting everyone?s time by being so defensive without reading your own posts.
Please stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . .
Just because you don?t understand some things, it doesn?t mean that they have nothing to do with anything. . . If you really think they have nothing to do with anything then just ignore them and stop asking me about them in the same way that I have been ignoring many of your irrelevant remarks (in this post and prior posts) so that the discussion can move on for the benefit of the reader.
counting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 936 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 936 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Counting is about counting out of a population or a set. You seem to be trying to invent your own Anwar definition of the concept of counting so that you can turn it again into an absolute number. So after admitting above that ?3iddah? meaning ?count? is not wrong, you go back to square one and equate the concept with an absolute number, which is the wrong position that you started with in the first place. You keep going in circles saying that 936 is talking about an absolute number while the god is telling us that it is just a count. Moreover, when we count like the god has set the count and as per the clear meaning of count (counting out of a population or set), the lunar cycle is automatically synchronized with the solar cycle and we accomplish the purpose of 936-37. If you read carefully the entire passage of 936-37, then you will see that the whole context of counting 12 (out of 12 or 13) is about not violating the hunting restrictions. I hope I am clear and please don?t ask me any more questions that assume equating count with an absolute number.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
Ayman please be serious and answer the question. You are being very disingenuious here.
Here's the question again. I will limit my commentary so that you can answer this question which you have not answered
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 936? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace everyone,
Let me rephrase the same idea in another way which might help everyone, including progod, to understand the concept better.
Suppose God had said "The count of the full-moons with God is thirteen full-moons", then it would have meant that we should be able to count 13 full-moons in every solar year, which is impossible and would have falsified al-quran. The second interpretation could have been that the year is lunar and the count of full-moons in that lunar year is always 13 full-moons, which would have contradicted 1712 and would have caused the restricted full-moons and therefore the period of hunting restriction to be out of sync with the seasons. This would have nullified the whole purpose of hunting restriction. The hunting restriction makes sense only if it is always in a certain season because the breeding season of wild animals is always in the same season in the specific hemisphere.
As you can see, the count of full-moons with God could not be 13 full-moons because of the above reasons. However, if we always count only 12 full-moons in every solar year (which we will always be able to do), and do not count the 13th full-moon when it occurs, then
1 - There will be no contradictions in al-quran;
2 - The seasons will always be in sync with the respective full-moons, and the four restricted full-moons will always fall in the same season every year;
3 - The period of hunting restriction will always remain the same.Therefore, God does not count 13 full-moons but counts 12 full-moons.
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Peace Truthseeker,
Thank you for rephrasing the clear answer and making it even more clear.
Peace Anwar,
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 936? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Nun,
You didn't understand what I meant at all. I meant, if you use full moon in these respective verses you get one count and if THEN use month in these respective verses you get another count. In the minimum case, they do not EQUAL. I showed that in my previous post if you read the whole thing. Do you understand now what I was talking about? That's all.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months...wait 3 full moons = 2 months (in the minimum)
- Widows wait 4 months and ten days... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Men who take vows fast 4 months... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months... wait 2 full moons = 1 month (in the minimum)
- Travel the earth 4 months...travel for 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I have tackled your concept of month in all honesty but you seem to refuse to do that with full moon to really show it's inconsistency. The one time you tried you failed because the consistency of full moon automatically showed itself. We are going in circles here and so it seems that there is not much more to discuss.
Umm Tariq
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Ayman,
Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
Let me start by repeating the fact that 936 is a statement about God's count of the shahr and NOT a command on how we are to count shahr.
So for the sake of the conversation, I'll agree with that defintion of count. If we are counting we've got to be counting something. But let me remind all that a count can be a 1-1 relationship, like 12 out of 12 or 13 out of 13. But let's keep going.If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
I'll give you a general yes here. But I see that you are setting up these questions without recognizing that God is doing the counting in 936, not us.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
Yes.
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
To make this relevant to 936 (which everyone needs to read), if God is choosing to count 12 out of 13 than yes. But this is the problem. Why is God only counting 12 full moons in the years that he created 13 full moons?
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Lol. This is hilarious. All your questions were preconditioned that a human being is doing the counting and that 936 is a command to only count 12 shahr. I have been saying from the beginning that in 936 God is doing the counting and that this is not a command. Your whole theory is premised upon whether 936 is a command to the believers. But 936 is not a command to the believers. "The count of months with God" is explicitly saying that God has been doing the counting, not us. So why do you keep trying to phrase this in the context of human beings doing the counting? I understand that human beings can count only 12 out of a set of 13, and I understand that if God told us to do that then we are to do that. But God did not tell us to do that and 936 does not tell us to do that. 936 is explaining how GOD has been counting the shahr. So my question still goes unanswered. If God created some years with 13 full moons why has GOD been ingorning the 13th full moons he created during some years and couting only 12 when he created these 13 full moons in the first place?
Please do not repeat again that humans can easily count 12 full moons out of a set of 13. Because that is not the answer to my question. 936 is not a command for people to count anything. It is a statement about how God counts the shahr. So if God made certain years with 13 full-moons why has HE been ignoring the full-moons HE created in the first place to maintain the count as 12 full moons?
This is about the logic behind God's actions in 936. My question has nothing to do with human actions. It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
So please answer my question and stop dwelling on the defintion of count or the ability of people to count 12 out of 13 when told to. That is not what I'm having problems with. I'm having problems meshing your conclusions with God's statement that he has been counting 12 full-moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth when at the same time he created the heavens and the earth he also created certain years with 13 full moons. Why would he create something only to ignore it? That would imply that God has been ignoring a phenomenon that he created in the first place since the beginning. And why would he do that? That doesn't make much sense.
To answer my question please focus on the quran's statement of God's actions in 936 not human actions.
Godbless,
AnwarAnd siki, thanks for the gem comment, but no thanks for the bonkers comment. Maybe you should read my posts and try to understand what I'm saying. I assure you I am not going bonkers and this is a valid question that you and others should pay attention to.
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Peace Anwar,
It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
There are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 936 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 936 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 936 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 936-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Umm,
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I am not confusing the issue and do understand. It is you who is confused by the full moon.
- SHAHR IS NOT USED IN THE VERSE
- A MARKER IS NOT TIME
- TIME REQUIRES TWO MARKERS
Non menstruating women are different from menstruating women who are not consistent moon clocks.
Menstruating women vary and can have 3 menses in 6 weeks or in 6 months.
The average cycle length is about 28 days.
Non menstruating women (again different category) wait 3 x 28 day average cycles or about 3 months.Again,
2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four months...
The same man, the same vow, has ZERO to do with menstruating women.
The same man cannot be asked to wait on one date...
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysThe same man cannot be asked to wait on another date...
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days584 ... And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other. And for him who is unable to do so, he should feed sixty of Miskeen (poor).
That is 2 months successive NOT 2 full moons or 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
2 months fasting or feeding 60 poor people or 1 person per each day.
Full moon makes NO logical sense, is INCONSISTENT, is NOT following Quran and shortchanges every verse by 1 month.
Peace
-
Ayman,
This debauchery and grand fraud on your part has gone on for too long. I ask a question and you speak about things that have nothing to do with my questions. Getting into the mind of God? You know it makes no sense for God himself to create some years with 13 full moons and for HIM to have not been counting those 13 full-moons since he created them. It makes no sense for God to create 13 full moons in a set some years but to only have been counting 12 of them since the day he created the heavens and the earth. The question of why would God create something and then ignore it is a valid queston that you have absolutely no answer to. Ifs, woulds? Is that how you try to make me sound unsure or hypothetical? You are a grand deciever and if anyone here believes you I fear for their salvation. You are false beyond belief and will say anything to distract readers from the main issue at hand, which you always seem to dodge. I have concluded that everything that you have said about shahr Ramadan and the count of shahr in a year is your innovation and a grand lie. This is a great shame to all Quranists everywhere.
I just want to clarify to everyone here that this question has nothing to do with hunting restrictions or getting into God's mind. Nor does it have to do with the definiton of count. The question is clearly that
936 says that God has been couting 12 months each year since he created the heavens and the earth. So why in the world would God be ignoring the natural occurance of a 13th full-moon that he created in the first place?
Valid question? Of course. Can Ayman answer it? Obviously not.
I don't believe that God creates things only to ignore them himself after the moment he creates them. That is falsehood beyond belief. Say what you want Ayman. Go ahead and attack my ideas to distract from the question. Do what you like but your falsehood and intellectual dishonesty has been blatantly obvious here. Anyone that has questions about my conclusions can contact me. I urge you to trust nothing Ayman says about my opinions on the subject. As well ask him about his opinions. If you ask enough questions, especially concerning 936 you will get your answer.
There are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 936 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 936 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 936 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 936-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Nun,
You know what, I see that you refuse to read what I wrote. The issue is clear, I am convinced, by the strength of the argument based on the god's words, that shahr is full moon and you, it seems, can't prove otherwise so you just ignore all that I write and just repeat your stance, not very helpful nor convincing. Nevermind.
To all who are trying, false words and arguments will not detract from the truth.
Umm Tariq
-
Peace,
With all due respect, Nun I think you have been beating a dead horse here. And i disagree with the shahr as full moon camp as much as you do, although for different reasons so don't get me wrong. You don't like the incosistency of the count and that is understandable but I think as it concerns how many shahr must pass in these different requirements by God to wait or to fast I think the shahr as full moon camp has been clear. I don't believe that shahr means full-moon in the Quranic context either but the inconsistency in the actual time of waiting when it concerns waiting for full moons to pass has been fully and repeatedly explained. Arguing on the basis of this inconsistency (which obviously can vary inconsistently from 88-118 days for the same offense) is pointless. Nun, I don't think Umm Tariq is being unreasonable here. That incosistency of time is consistent with 'the shahr as full moon' idea so there is no point in continuing to argue that. I hope I am not turning you into an enemy, but i don't think they can say it any more clearer. If you want to continue to challenge this belief I think you'll have to do it using another aspect or ramification of this idea. Because you are just arguing something that they already know, have already admitted and that fits with the way they view this issue. There is no Quranic or logical inconsistency with THIS APSECT in the context of the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' idea.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Umm,
I am not confusing the issue and do understand. It is you who is confused by the full moon.
- SHAHR IS NOT USED IN THE VERSE
- A MARKER IS NOT TIME
- TIME REQUIRES TWO MARKERS
Non menstruating women are different from menstruating women who are not consistent moon clocks.
Menstruating women vary and can have 3 menses in 6 weeks or in 6 months.
The average cycle length is about 28 days.
Non menstruating women (again different category) wait 3 x 28 day average cycles or about 3 months.Again,
2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four months...
The same man, the same vow, has ZERO to do with menstruating women.
The same man cannot be asked to wait on one date...
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysThe same man cannot be asked to wait on another date...
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days584 ... And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other. And for him who is unable to do so, he should feed sixty of Miskeen (poor).
That is 2 months successive NOT 2 full moons or 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
2 months fasting or feeding 60 poor people or 1 person per each day.
Full moon makes NO logical sense, is INCONSISTENT, is NOT following Quran and shortchanges every verse by 1 month.
Peace
Peace Brother,
God's Signs are very clear, but only Him who can make people to see it or not.
You only can deliver the Message, so you can be Witness in the Judgment Day agniset them.Have Fun
May God increase your wisdom and protact you From getting Lost from the Straight Path.
peace -
Salam,
According to the OT and the Quran There has always been only 12 months in a year. This is a fact.
The Hebrews and the phoenicians had no word for that specifically meant month. They used the word "moon."
In the Old Testament the moon was used for the computation of time
Gen 114 And God said 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
Gen 2914 And Laban said to him 'Surely thou art my bone and my flesh.' And he abode with him the space of a month (literally says in Hebrew days of the moon)
1Sa 61 And the ark of the LORD was in the country of the Philistines seven months.
The beginning of the month was generally decided by the observation of the new moon and was generally a celebrated occassion.
Num 1010 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your appointed seasons, and in your new moons, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace-offerings; and they shall be to you for a memorial before your God I am the LORD your God.'
Num 2811 And in your new moons ye shall present a burnt-offering unto the LORD two young bullocks, and one ram, seven he-lambs of the first year without blemish;
Num 2812 and three tenth parts of an ephah of fine flour for a meal-offering, mingled with oil, for each bullock; and two tenth parts of fine flour for a meal-offering, mingled with oil, for the one ram;
Num 2813 and a several tenth part of fine flour mingled with oil for a meal-offering unto every lamb; for a burnt-offering of a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Num 2814 And their drink-offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bullock, and the third part of a hin for the ram, and the fourth part of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt-offering of every new moon throughout the months of the year.Psa 813 (814) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day.
There were 12 months in a year.There are only Twelve months in the Old Testament
1Ki 47 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, who provided victuals for the king and his household each man had to make provision for a month in the year.
1Ch 271 Now the children of Israel after their number, to wit, the heads of fathers' houses and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and their officers that served the king, in any matter of the courses which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year, of every course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 272 Over the first course for the first month was Jashobeam the son of Zabdiel; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 273 Of the children of Perez was he, and the chief of all the captains of the host for the first month.
1Ch 274 And over the course of the second month was Dodai the Ahohite, and his course, and Mikloth the ruler; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 275 The third captain of the host for the third month was Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the priest, chief; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 276 This is that Benaiah, who was the mighty man of the thirty, and over the thirty; and of his course was Ammizabad his son.
1Ch 277 The fourth captain for the fourth month was Asahel the brother of Joab, and Zebadiah his son after him; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 278 The fifth captain for the fifth month was Shamhuth the Izrahite; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 279 The sixth captain for the sixth month was Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2710 The seventh captain for the seventh month was Helez the Pelonite, of the children of Ephraim; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2711 The eighth captain for the eighth month was Sibbecai the Hushathite, of the Zerahites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2712 The ninth captain for the ninth month was Abiezer the Anathothite, of the Benjamites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2713 The tenth captain for the tenth month was Mahrai, the Netophathite, of the Zerahites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2714 The eleventh captain for the eleventh month was Benaiah the Pirathonite, of the children of Ephraim; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2715 The twelfth captain for the twelfth month was Heldai the Netophathite, of Othniel; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2716 Furthermore over the tribes of Israel of the Reubenites was Eliezer the son of Zichri the ruler; of the Simeonites, Shephatiah the son of Maacah;
1Ch 2717 of Levi, Hashabiah the son of Kemuel; of Aaron, Zadok;
1Ch 2718 of Judah, Elihu, one of the brethren of David; of Issachar, Omri the son of Michael;
1Ch 2719 of Zebulun, Ishmaiah the son of Obadiah; of Naphtali, Jerimoth the son of Azriel;
1Ch 2720 of the children of Ephraim, Hoshea the son of Azaziah; of the half-tribe of Manasseh, Joel the son of Pedaiah;
1Ch 2721 of the half-tribe of Manasseh in Gilead, Iddo the son of Zechariah; of Benjamin, Jaasiel the son of Abner;
1Ch 2722 of Dan, Azarel the son of Jeroham. These were the captains of the tribes of Israel.
1Ch 2723 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under; because the LORD had said He would increase Israel like to the stars of heaven.
1Ch 2724 Joab the son of Zeruiah began to number, but finished not; and there came wrath for this upon Israel; neither was the number put into the account in the chronicles of king David.
1Ch 2725 And over the king's treasuries was Azmaveth the son of Adiel; and over the treasuries in the fields, in the cities, and in the villages, and in the towers, was Jonathan the son of Uzziah;
1Ch 2726 and over them that did the work of the field for tillage of the ground was Ezri the son of Chelub;
1Ch 2727 and over the vineyards was Shimei the Ramathite; and over the increase of the vineyards for the wine-cellars was Zabdi the Shiphmite;
1Ch 2728 and over the olive-trees and the sycomore-trees that were in the Lowland was Baal-hanan the Gederite; and over the cellars of oil was Joash;
1Ch 2729 and over the herds that fed in Sharon was Shirtai the Sharonite; and over the herds that were in the valleys was Shaphat the son of Adlai;
1Ch 2730 and over the camels was Obil the Ishmaelite; and over the asses was Jehdeiah the Meronothite;
1Ch 2731 and over the flocks was Jaziz the Hagrite. All these were the rulers of the substance which was king David's.
1Ch 2732 Also Jonathan David's uncle was a counsellor, a man of understanding, and a scribe; and Jehiel the son of Hachmoni was with the king's sons;
1Ch 2733 and Ahithophel was the king's counsellor; and Hushai the Archite was the king's friend;
1Ch 2734 and after Ahithophel was Jehoiada the son of Benaiah, and Abiathar; and the captain of the king's host was Joab.So what happened, you may ask?
12 lunar months fall short of a solar year and there was a decision by the Jews to insert a month about every third year, which would sometimes bring the number up to 13 months.
There is NO mention of 13 months anywhere in the Bible.
In the modern Jewish calendar (based on Talmud NOT the Bible), the intercalary month is introduced seven times in every nineteen years
(please do not focus on the fact that I mentioned the number 19).From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Month
Among the Egyptians the month of thirty days each was in use long before the time of the Exodus, and formed the basis of their calculations. From the time of the institution of the Mosaic law the month among the Jews was lunar. The cycle of religious feasts depended on the moon. The commencement of a month was determined by the observation of the new moon. The number of months in the year was usually twelve (1Ki_47; 1Ch_271-15); but every third year an additional month (ve-Adar) was inserted, so as to make the months coincide with the seasons.Salam,
Arnab