Hot/"ramadan" Answer
-
Peace Anwar,
It seems like your trying to confuse the subject again. Did i say that God said he created 12 or 13 moons in 936? No.
Here is what you said
And you have still not explained to me how God created 13 full moons
Here is what I replied
Where does it say in 936 as you say that "the god has created 12 (or 13) full-moons" ("allah khalaq inthna 3ashr shahra"?
So you are essentially asking me to explain ?how God created 13 full moons? and then when I do exactly as you asked and explain that in fact he didn?t you get all angry with me! Please stop wasting everyone?s time by being so defensive without reading your own posts.
Please stop injecting things that have nothing to do with anything. . .
Just because you don?t understand some things, it doesn?t mean that they have nothing to do with anything. . . If you really think they have nothing to do with anything then just ignore them and stop asking me about them in the same way that I have been ignoring many of your irrelevant remarks (in this post and prior posts) so that the discussion can move on for the benefit of the reader.
counting apples in a basket among many apples and the like. Again, 936 is not about how many full-moons we are to count. 936 is about how many full-moons GOD is counting despite what he created in the first place. If you don't understand my question, I will be glad to repeat it however many times is necessary.
Counting is about counting out of a population or a set. You seem to be trying to invent your own Anwar definition of the concept of counting so that you can turn it again into an absolute number. So after admitting above that ?3iddah? meaning ?count? is not wrong, you go back to square one and equate the concept with an absolute number, which is the wrong position that you started with in the first place. You keep going in circles saying that 936 is talking about an absolute number while the god is telling us that it is just a count. Moreover, when we count like the god has set the count and as per the clear meaning of count (counting out of a population or set), the lunar cycle is automatically synchronized with the solar cycle and we accomplish the purpose of 936-37. If you read carefully the entire passage of 936-37, then you will see that the whole context of counting 12 (out of 12 or 13) is about not violating the hunting restrictions. I hope I am clear and please don?t ask me any more questions that assume equating count with an absolute number.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace,
Ayman please be serious and answer the question. You are being very disingenuious here.
Here's the question again. I will limit my commentary so that you can answer this question which you have not answered
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 936? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace everyone,
Let me rephrase the same idea in another way which might help everyone, including progod, to understand the concept better.
Suppose God had said "The count of the full-moons with God is thirteen full-moons", then it would have meant that we should be able to count 13 full-moons in every solar year, which is impossible and would have falsified al-quran. The second interpretation could have been that the year is lunar and the count of full-moons in that lunar year is always 13 full-moons, which would have contradicted 1712 and would have caused the restricted full-moons and therefore the period of hunting restriction to be out of sync with the seasons. This would have nullified the whole purpose of hunting restriction. The hunting restriction makes sense only if it is always in a certain season because the breeding season of wild animals is always in the same season in the specific hemisphere.
As you can see, the count of full-moons with God could not be 13 full-moons because of the above reasons. However, if we always count only 12 full-moons in every solar year (which we will always be able to do), and do not count the 13th full-moon when it occurs, then
1 - There will be no contradictions in al-quran;
2 - The seasons will always be in sync with the respective full-moons, and the four restricted full-moons will always fall in the same season every year;
3 - The period of hunting restriction will always remain the same.Therefore, God does not count 13 full-moons but counts 12 full-moons.
-
Peace Truthseeker,
Thank you for rephrasing the clear answer and making it even more clear.
Peace Anwar,
If God created 13 full moons for some years why is HE only counting 12 of them in 936? Why is God not counting the 13 full moons that occur in certain years, which he created in the first place?
I am still waiting for a real answer. This has nothing to do with me redefining 3iddah as I am following your sole definition of count here and am not debating you about this word.Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Nun,
You didn't understand what I meant at all. I meant, if you use full moon in these respective verses you get one count and if THEN use month in these respective verses you get another count. In the minimum case, they do not EQUAL. I showed that in my previous post if you read the whole thing. Do you understand now what I was talking about? That's all.
God prescribes different times (fixed constant) to different scenarios...
- Divorced non menstruating women wait 3 months...wait 3 full moons = 2 months (in the minimum)
- Widows wait 4 months and ten days... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Men who take vows fast 4 months... wait 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
- Those who accidently kill a believer fast 2 months... wait 2 full moons = 1 month (in the minimum)
- Travel the earth 4 months...travel for 4 full moons = 3 months (in the minimum)
The above all use shahr (fixed constant) except for 3 menstruations (variable) each woman. One cannot apply a variable to a constant nor constant to a variable.
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I have tackled your concept of month in all honesty but you seem to refuse to do that with full moon to really show it's inconsistency. The one time you tried you failed because the consistency of full moon automatically showed itself. We are going in circles here and so it seems that there is not much more to discuss.
Umm Tariq
-
Ayman,
Let's do it step by step so that you can understand.
#1. Do you agree that the definition of "count" is "counting out of a population or set"? YES or NO.
Let me start by repeating the fact that 936 is a statement about God's count of the shahr and NOT a command on how we are to count shahr.
So for the sake of the conversation, I'll agree with that defintion of count. If we are counting we've got to be counting something. But let me remind all that a count can be a 1-1 relationship, like 12 out of 12 or 13 out of 13. But let's keep going.If YES then
#2. If shahr means full moon then the set that we are counting out of is the number of full-moons in a solar year? YES or NO.
I'll give you a general yes here. But I see that you are setting up these questions without recognizing that God is doing the counting in 936, not us.
If YES then
#3. The set of the number of full-moons in a solar year could be 12 or 13? YES or NO
Yes.
If YES then
#4. See #1 and count 12 out of the set of 12 or 13, do you always get 12? YES or NO
To make this relevant to 936 (which everyone needs to read), if God is choosing to count 12 out of 13 than yes. But this is the problem. Why is God only counting 12 full moons in the years that he created 13 full moons?
If you answered YES to all of the above questions then congratulations, you understand.
If you answered NO to any of the above then I would suggest giving those questions to anyone you know or don't know who doesn't have any preconceptions about this matter and have him or her answer them for you.
Lol. This is hilarious. All your questions were preconditioned that a human being is doing the counting and that 936 is a command to only count 12 shahr. I have been saying from the beginning that in 936 God is doing the counting and that this is not a command. Your whole theory is premised upon whether 936 is a command to the believers. But 936 is not a command to the believers. "The count of months with God" is explicitly saying that God has been doing the counting, not us. So why do you keep trying to phrase this in the context of human beings doing the counting? I understand that human beings can count only 12 out of a set of 13, and I understand that if God told us to do that then we are to do that. But God did not tell us to do that and 936 does not tell us to do that. 936 is explaining how GOD has been counting the shahr. So my question still goes unanswered. If God created some years with 13 full moons why has GOD been ingorning the 13th full moons he created during some years and couting only 12 when he created these 13 full moons in the first place?
Please do not repeat again that humans can easily count 12 full moons out of a set of 13. Because that is not the answer to my question. 936 is not a command for people to count anything. It is a statement about how God counts the shahr. So if God made certain years with 13 full-moons why has HE been ignoring the full-moons HE created in the first place to maintain the count as 12 full moons?
This is about the logic behind God's actions in 936. My question has nothing to do with human actions. It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
So please answer my question and stop dwelling on the defintion of count or the ability of people to count 12 out of 13 when told to. That is not what I'm having problems with. I'm having problems meshing your conclusions with God's statement that he has been counting 12 full-moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth when at the same time he created the heavens and the earth he also created certain years with 13 full moons. Why would he create something only to ignore it? That would imply that God has been ignoring a phenomenon that he created in the first place since the beginning. And why would he do that? That doesn't make much sense.
To answer my question please focus on the quran's statement of God's actions in 936 not human actions.
Godbless,
AnwarAnd siki, thanks for the gem comment, but no thanks for the bonkers comment. Maybe you should read my posts and try to understand what I'm saying. I assure you I am not going bonkers and this is a valid question that you and others should pay attention to.
-
Peace Anwar,
It seems to me that if God wanted to only count 12 full moons every year since he created the heavens and the earth that he would have created every year with only 12 full moons and not 13, which would have been easy for him.
There are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 936 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 936 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 936 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 936-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Umm,
Again you are confusing the issues and seem to refuse to acknowledge the point about the full moon being a marker and that's why it can be used in all of these verses. The menstrual cycles themselves for different women will vary but the CONSTANT is that they are using it as a MARKER, nothing more nothing less. As all can see, in the minimum case, the two different counting mechanisms differ by 1 'month' so both cannot be right. One last time, can anyone answer the question seriously why should the non-menstruating woman automatically wait 1 month longer than a menstruating woman when you substitute shahr as month?
I am not confusing the issue and do understand. It is you who is confused by the full moon.
- SHAHR IS NOT USED IN THE VERSE
- A MARKER IS NOT TIME
- TIME REQUIRES TWO MARKERS
Non menstruating women are different from menstruating women who are not consistent moon clocks.
Menstruating women vary and can have 3 menses in 6 weeks or in 6 months.
The average cycle length is about 28 days.
Non menstruating women (again different category) wait 3 x 28 day average cycles or about 3 months.Again,
2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four months...
The same man, the same vow, has ZERO to do with menstruating women.
The same man cannot be asked to wait on one date...
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysThe same man cannot be asked to wait on another date...
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days584 ... And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other. And for him who is unable to do so, he should feed sixty of Miskeen (poor).
That is 2 months successive NOT 2 full moons or 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
2 months fasting or feeding 60 poor people or 1 person per each day.
Full moon makes NO logical sense, is INCONSISTENT, is NOT following Quran and shortchanges every verse by 1 month.
Peace
-
Ayman,
This debauchery and grand fraud on your part has gone on for too long. I ask a question and you speak about things that have nothing to do with my questions. Getting into the mind of God? You know it makes no sense for God himself to create some years with 13 full moons and for HIM to have not been counting those 13 full-moons since he created them. It makes no sense for God to create 13 full moons in a set some years but to only have been counting 12 of them since the day he created the heavens and the earth. The question of why would God create something and then ignore it is a valid queston that you have absolutely no answer to. Ifs, woulds? Is that how you try to make me sound unsure or hypothetical? You are a grand deciever and if anyone here believes you I fear for their salvation. You are false beyond belief and will say anything to distract readers from the main issue at hand, which you always seem to dodge. I have concluded that everything that you have said about shahr Ramadan and the count of shahr in a year is your innovation and a grand lie. This is a great shame to all Quranists everywhere.
I just want to clarify to everyone here that this question has nothing to do with hunting restrictions or getting into God's mind. Nor does it have to do with the definiton of count. The question is clearly that
936 says that God has been couting 12 months each year since he created the heavens and the earth. So why in the world would God be ignoring the natural occurance of a 13th full-moon that he created in the first place?
Valid question? Of course. Can Ayman answer it? Obviously not.
I don't believe that God creates things only to ignore them himself after the moment he creates them. That is falsehood beyond belief. Say what you want Ayman. Go ahead and attack my ideas to distract from the question. Do what you like but your falsehood and intellectual dishonesty has been blatantly obvious here. Anyone that has questions about my conclusions can contact me. I urge you to trust nothing Ayman says about my opinions on the subject. As well ask him about his opinions. If you ask enough questions, especially concerning 936 you will get your answer.
There are too many "ifs" and "woulds" in your statement about what the god is thinking. You seem to think that you have entered the mind of the god and know what is in it, so if you want to go by such conjecture then there is no point in this discussion. On the other hand, since we can't enter the mind of the god, we can only go by what 936 is saying. The god doesn't mention in 936 that he "created" 12 or 13 full-moons (despite these being only an optical phenonmenon of the 1 and the same moon), these are your own words. He only says that the count of this optical phenomenon of the full-moons is 12. The meaning of count as you admit is "counting out of a set". You are instead saying that when the god says "count", he really means an absolute number and not the universal concept of count. When we look at the god's signs in the heavens we see that the set can be 12 or 13 in a solar year. When we count exactly 12 as the god said in 936 instead of wild conjectures about what is on the mind of the god, the lunar cycle is naturally and effortlessly synchronized with the solar cycle and the hunting restrictions are not violated by arbitrarily changing when they take place, which is the whole context of 936-37 anyway. At this stage, there is really nothing more to say, so feel free to disagree and feel free to insist on proposing a hunting restriction period that is arbitrary and non-sequential but you already admitted to the meaning of count as "counting out of a set" and you can't change the above indisputable facts.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Nun,
You know what, I see that you refuse to read what I wrote. The issue is clear, I am convinced, by the strength of the argument based on the god's words, that shahr is full moon and you, it seems, can't prove otherwise so you just ignore all that I write and just repeat your stance, not very helpful nor convincing. Nevermind.
To all who are trying, false words and arguments will not detract from the truth.
Umm Tariq
-
Peace,
With all due respect, Nun I think you have been beating a dead horse here. And i disagree with the shahr as full moon camp as much as you do, although for different reasons so don't get me wrong. You don't like the incosistency of the count and that is understandable but I think as it concerns how many shahr must pass in these different requirements by God to wait or to fast I think the shahr as full moon camp has been clear. I don't believe that shahr means full-moon in the Quranic context either but the inconsistency in the actual time of waiting when it concerns waiting for full moons to pass has been fully and repeatedly explained. Arguing on the basis of this inconsistency (which obviously can vary inconsistently from 88-118 days for the same offense) is pointless. Nun, I don't think Umm Tariq is being unreasonable here. That incosistency of time is consistent with 'the shahr as full moon' idea so there is no point in continuing to argue that. I hope I am not turning you into an enemy, but i don't think they can say it any more clearer. If you want to continue to challenge this belief I think you'll have to do it using another aspect or ramification of this idea. Because you are just arguing something that they already know, have already admitted and that fits with the way they view this issue. There is no Quranic or logical inconsistency with THIS APSECT in the context of the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' idea.
sun Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace Umm,
I am not confusing the issue and do understand. It is you who is confused by the full moon.
- SHAHR IS NOT USED IN THE VERSE
- A MARKER IS NOT TIME
- TIME REQUIRES TWO MARKERS
Non menstruating women are different from menstruating women who are not consistent moon clocks.
Menstruating women vary and can have 3 menses in 6 weeks or in 6 months.
The average cycle length is about 28 days.
Non menstruating women (again different category) wait 3 x 28 day average cycles or about 3 months.Again,
2226 Those who take an oath not to have sexual relation with their wives must wait four months...
The same man, the same vow, has ZERO to do with menstruating women.
The same man cannot be asked to wait on one date...
lunar month x 3 = 88.59177 daysThe same man cannot be asked to wait on another date...
lunar month x 4 = 118.12236 days584 ... And he who finds not must fast two successive months before they both touch each other. And for him who is unable to do so, he should feed sixty of Miskeen (poor).
That is 2 months successive NOT 2 full moons or 1 lunar month = 29.53059 days
2 months fasting or feeding 60 poor people or 1 person per each day.
Full moon makes NO logical sense, is INCONSISTENT, is NOT following Quran and shortchanges every verse by 1 month.
Peace
Peace Brother,
God's Signs are very clear, but only Him who can make people to see it or not.
You only can deliver the Message, so you can be Witness in the Judgment Day agniset them.Have Fun
May God increase your wisdom and protact you From getting Lost from the Straight Path.
peace -
Salam,
According to the OT and the Quran There has always been only 12 months in a year. This is a fact.
The Hebrews and the phoenicians had no word for that specifically meant month. They used the word "moon."
In the Old Testament the moon was used for the computation of time
Gen 114 And God said 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
Gen 2914 And Laban said to him 'Surely thou art my bone and my flesh.' And he abode with him the space of a month (literally says in Hebrew days of the moon)
1Sa 61 And the ark of the LORD was in the country of the Philistines seven months.
The beginning of the month was generally decided by the observation of the new moon and was generally a celebrated occassion.
Num 1010 Also in the day of your gladness, and in your appointed seasons, and in your new moons, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt-offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace-offerings; and they shall be to you for a memorial before your God I am the LORD your God.'
Num 2811 And in your new moons ye shall present a burnt-offering unto the LORD two young bullocks, and one ram, seven he-lambs of the first year without blemish;
Num 2812 and three tenth parts of an ephah of fine flour for a meal-offering, mingled with oil, for each bullock; and two tenth parts of fine flour for a meal-offering, mingled with oil, for the one ram;
Num 2813 and a several tenth part of fine flour mingled with oil for a meal-offering unto every lamb; for a burnt-offering of a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.
Num 2814 And their drink-offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bullock, and the third part of a hin for the ram, and the fourth part of a hin for a lamb. This is the burnt-offering of every new moon throughout the months of the year.Psa 813 (814) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day.
There were 12 months in a year.There are only Twelve months in the Old Testament
1Ki 47 And Solomon had twelve officers over all Israel, who provided victuals for the king and his household each man had to make provision for a month in the year.
1Ch 271 Now the children of Israel after their number, to wit, the heads of fathers' houses and the captains of thousands and of hundreds, and their officers that served the king, in any matter of the courses which came in and went out month by month throughout all the months of the year, of every course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 272 Over the first course for the first month was Jashobeam the son of Zabdiel; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 273 Of the children of Perez was he, and the chief of all the captains of the host for the first month.
1Ch 274 And over the course of the second month was Dodai the Ahohite, and his course, and Mikloth the ruler; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 275 The third captain of the host for the third month was Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, the priest, chief; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 276 This is that Benaiah, who was the mighty man of the thirty, and over the thirty; and of his course was Ammizabad his son.
1Ch 277 The fourth captain for the fourth month was Asahel the brother of Joab, and Zebadiah his son after him; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 278 The fifth captain for the fifth month was Shamhuth the Izrahite; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 279 The sixth captain for the sixth month was Ira the son of Ikkesh the Tekoite; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2710 The seventh captain for the seventh month was Helez the Pelonite, of the children of Ephraim; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2711 The eighth captain for the eighth month was Sibbecai the Hushathite, of the Zerahites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2712 The ninth captain for the ninth month was Abiezer the Anathothite, of the Benjamites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2713 The tenth captain for the tenth month was Mahrai, the Netophathite, of the Zerahites; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2714 The eleventh captain for the eleventh month was Benaiah the Pirathonite, of the children of Ephraim; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2715 The twelfth captain for the twelfth month was Heldai the Netophathite, of Othniel; and in his course were twenty and four thousand.
1Ch 2716 Furthermore over the tribes of Israel of the Reubenites was Eliezer the son of Zichri the ruler; of the Simeonites, Shephatiah the son of Maacah;
1Ch 2717 of Levi, Hashabiah the son of Kemuel; of Aaron, Zadok;
1Ch 2718 of Judah, Elihu, one of the brethren of David; of Issachar, Omri the son of Michael;
1Ch 2719 of Zebulun, Ishmaiah the son of Obadiah; of Naphtali, Jerimoth the son of Azriel;
1Ch 2720 of the children of Ephraim, Hoshea the son of Azaziah; of the half-tribe of Manasseh, Joel the son of Pedaiah;
1Ch 2721 of the half-tribe of Manasseh in Gilead, Iddo the son of Zechariah; of Benjamin, Jaasiel the son of Abner;
1Ch 2722 of Dan, Azarel the son of Jeroham. These were the captains of the tribes of Israel.
1Ch 2723 But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under; because the LORD had said He would increase Israel like to the stars of heaven.
1Ch 2724 Joab the son of Zeruiah began to number, but finished not; and there came wrath for this upon Israel; neither was the number put into the account in the chronicles of king David.
1Ch 2725 And over the king's treasuries was Azmaveth the son of Adiel; and over the treasuries in the fields, in the cities, and in the villages, and in the towers, was Jonathan the son of Uzziah;
1Ch 2726 and over them that did the work of the field for tillage of the ground was Ezri the son of Chelub;
1Ch 2727 and over the vineyards was Shimei the Ramathite; and over the increase of the vineyards for the wine-cellars was Zabdi the Shiphmite;
1Ch 2728 and over the olive-trees and the sycomore-trees that were in the Lowland was Baal-hanan the Gederite; and over the cellars of oil was Joash;
1Ch 2729 and over the herds that fed in Sharon was Shirtai the Sharonite; and over the herds that were in the valleys was Shaphat the son of Adlai;
1Ch 2730 and over the camels was Obil the Ishmaelite; and over the asses was Jehdeiah the Meronothite;
1Ch 2731 and over the flocks was Jaziz the Hagrite. All these were the rulers of the substance which was king David's.
1Ch 2732 Also Jonathan David's uncle was a counsellor, a man of understanding, and a scribe; and Jehiel the son of Hachmoni was with the king's sons;
1Ch 2733 and Ahithophel was the king's counsellor; and Hushai the Archite was the king's friend;
1Ch 2734 and after Ahithophel was Jehoiada the son of Benaiah, and Abiathar; and the captain of the king's host was Joab.So what happened, you may ask?
12 lunar months fall short of a solar year and there was a decision by the Jews to insert a month about every third year, which would sometimes bring the number up to 13 months.
There is NO mention of 13 months anywhere in the Bible.
In the modern Jewish calendar (based on Talmud NOT the Bible), the intercalary month is introduced seven times in every nineteen years
(please do not focus on the fact that I mentioned the number 19).From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Month
Among the Egyptians the month of thirty days each was in use long before the time of the Exodus, and formed the basis of their calculations. From the time of the institution of the Mosaic law the month among the Jews was lunar. The cycle of religious feasts depended on the moon. The commencement of a month was determined by the observation of the new moon. The number of months in the year was usually twelve (1Ki_47; 1Ch_271-15); but every third year an additional month (ve-Adar) was inserted, so as to make the months coincide with the seasons.Salam,
Arnab -
According to the OT and the Quran There has always been only 12 months in a year. This is a fact.
In the Old Testament the moon was used for the computation of time
The beginning of the month was generally decided by the observation of the new moon and was generally a celebrated occassion.
There were 12 months in a year.
There are only Twelve months in the Old Testament
12 lunar months fall short of a solar year and there was a decision by the Jews to insert a month about every third year, which would sometimes bring the number up to 13 months.
There is NO mention of 13 months anywhere in the Bible.
In the modern Jewish calendar (based on Talmud NOT the Bible), the intercalary month is introduced seven times in every nineteen years
(please do not focus on the fact that I mentioned the number 19).From Easton's Bible Dictionary
Month
Among the Egyptians the month of thirty days each was in use long before the time of the Exodus, and formed the basis of their calculations. From the time of the institution of the Mosaic law the month among the Jews was lunar. The cycle of religious feasts depended on the moon. The commencement of a month was determined by the observation of the new moon. The number of months in the year was usually twelve (1Ki_47; 1Ch_271-15); but every third year an additional month (ve-Adar) was inserted, so as to make the months coincide with the seasons.Salam,
ArnabPeace Arnab and All
Thank you so much for posting God's Torah and Biblic proofs, which are confirmed by Quran.
Now, you can see what Ayman is doing is the same as Jews did in the contrary of Torah.
May God lead every one who is seeking the truth to the Straight Path
Thank you again Arnab.
sun -
Peace Arnab,
Psa 813 (814) Blow the horn at the new moon, at the full moon for our feast-day (hagg).
The great reading doesn?t tell us about manmade calendars. It tells us about god-given cosmic markers. The primary purpose of the cosmic markers is to time the fast, time the hunting restriction, and time of the feast/?hagg?. We are clearly told in the great reading that the ?hagg? is ?ash-hur ma3loomat?, i.e. known full-moons (2197), which are also the restricted full-moons. It is therefore not surprising that the people of the book started their feasts (hagg HaMatzot and hagg HaSukkot) at the time of the full moons. In particular, the hagg HaSukkot, the most important feast for the people of the book, falls on the last full-moon of the restricted full-moons. The god tells us that the ?hagg? is a maximum of 10 days, which is also the time it takes for the full-moon to return to the crescent stage. So the crescent times the end of the ?hagg?.
On the other hand, the sectarians? pagan pilgrimage to Mecca starts on the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijja. So their timing neither starts nor ends with the full-moon or the crescent and it is in fact completely arbitrary in blatant violation of the great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace all;
Ayman here are quotations from an artical that was writtin by a person of Book
QuoteGod?s Calendar
The Calendar put in place by God was set in motion at the creation. It does not depend on man or on any system of observation to determine. It was in place during the entire Temple period of Israel and is not the same calendar as observed by Jews today. Christians are obliged by Law and the Testimony of the Bible to keep this Calendar and no other.
The word month is derived from the word for moon in the ancient root language, which became English. The Hebrew word is chadash or chodesh (SHD 2320) meaning a New Moon ? hence, it means a month. The New Moon is thus the means of determining the start of the month. The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon says of this word (p. 294) that it means New Moon or Month ...?1. new moon as day, time of the new moon as a religious festival. 2. month as beginning with the New Moon?. There is no doubt that historically the month began with the New Moon. The moon was also always a festival in the Temple period and the High Priest entered the Temple on this day as well as the Sabbath.
The word is related to ch?dar (SHD 2314), to surround or enclose, to conceal or curtain. In its note on Strong's 2314, the Lexicon continues "(as something surrounding) II. conceal behind a curtain, conceal, confine. IV. conceal oneself, also abide, stay or remain behind also as sheathing a sword" (p. 294).The sense of the basis of the term is clearly that of the full dark of the New Moon and not a later crescent. The matter of the crescent moon is examined in the paper The Golden Calf (No. 222).
Another word for month is yerach (SHD 3391) (1Kgs. 637-38; 82; 2Kgs. 1513; Zech. 11. This is from an unused root of uncertain significance and means a lunation, i.e. a month or moon. Another word is the Chaldean yerach (SHD 3393), which corresponds to SHD 3391 (Ezra 615).
The word for moon when used in the sense of sun and moon is SHD 3394 or SHD 3391. It can be SHD 3842 (Isa. 2423; 3026). The word for New Moon (SHD 2320) is translated as month in the English. The exceptions make it evident that a specific day is being indicated (1Sam. 205,18,24; 2Kgs. 423; Ps. 813; Isa. 6623; Ezek. 461,6; Amos 85). The months are thus the first, second, third etc. New Moon.
The New Moon is thus the central or determining point of the month. It forms the basis of calculation of the periods within a month. This is so with all of the Holy Days, not the least of which are the New Moons themselves (see the papers The New Moons (No. 125); The New Moons of Israel (No. 132); and also The Harvests of God, the New Moon Sacrifices, and the 144,000 (No. 120)).
The Saxon word Almanac appears to be derived from the Aramaic words al and manach meaning the counting. Verstigan, being the only exception, says however it came from al mon aght, i.e. al mon heed or the heeding of the moons. Certainly the concept of days beginning and ending at evening sunset or twilight is consistent with this Eastern origin (cf. Brady, pp. 42-43). The original almanacs were lunar cycle calendars, carved on four wooden pieces, based on 30 and 29-day sequences corresponding to the duration of the moon determining the conjunctions and full moons. The alternating day sequence was also the Arabic practice. A copy of an original Saxon Almanac is at Brady (op. cit., Vol. 1, between pp. 42-43). A very ancient one is in St Johns College, Cambridge, England.
The moon is also symbolic because it is in phases. The New Moon represents the beginning of the activity of each cycle. There are twelve months in the year (apart from intercalation) (1Kgs. 47; 1Chr. 271-15). They are generally reckoned to have a length of 30 days and that is the way they are referred to prophetically (Gen. 711; 83-4; Num. 2029; Deut. 2113; 348; Est. 411; Dan. 67-13).
The month of the Passover, which is Nisan or Abib, is specifically commanded by the Lord to be the beginning of the year (see also Num. 91-3; 333; Josh. 419; Ezek. 4518,21). This beginning symbolises the redemption of the Israel of God from the world?s system (Gal. 14; Rev. 144).
The months are numbered in sequence so that the year might be identified and not later confused (Ex. 122; 134; 2Chr. 302; Neh. 82). The months and the courses of the priests are all listed in 1Chronicles 271-15. The New Moons were listed in the days of worship with the Sabbath and Holy Days in Numbers 28 and 29 (esp. Num. 281-2,11,14).
The correct system of the calculation of the month based on the New Moon is perfectly predictable. From the New Moon at full dark there can be a larger number of thirty-day months in a year. This would return to the pre-tradition observations of up to eight thirty-day months (see above). The Passover must always fall after the vernal equinox. The New Moon may be before the equinox up to fourteen days.
The process of the New Moon is also interrelated with the tidal system of Spring and Neap Tides. The Spring Tides always occur from the Full and New Moons. The Neap Tides occur from the quarters (see Annexure).
The rules that developed are seen to be a process of refinement in order to place tradition over the Laws of God because the traditions made the observance of the Holy Days onerous.
END Quote
those are very clear signs that Moon Cycel is to calculate Month and Sun cycle to calculate days, according to Quran, Injeal and Torah.
)
-
Peace Progod,
I have a counter question for you. The shuhoor being restricted is also from God's perspective and their count being four is God's count too.
Why did God make the count of the restricted shuhoor to be four? Why not three or five?
As you said that in 936 the count of shuhoor being 12 is from God's perspective but so are the restricted shuhoor and their count being four. Obviously, if the restricted shuhoor and them being four is meant for humans, so is the count of shuhoor in a solar year. He just wanted us to count 12 full-moons every solar year, and therefore also count only 12 when 13 full-moons occur in a solar year, so the seasons would remain synchronized with the restricted full-moons.
I understand the point you are trying to make that the count of "shuhoor" is God's, i.e. from God's perspective but so are "restricted shuhoor" and them being four, but you are failing to consider the phrase "thalika alddeenu alqayyimu" (this is the correct system/obligation) immediately following that, which refers to both the count and the restricted shuhoor being four, and therefore makes it an obligation for the humans to follow the same count and the four restricted shuhoor from the human perspective too, unless you claim that God is talking about deen being for God and not for humans.
-
Peace Progod,
With all due respect, Nun I think you have been beating a dead horse here. And i disagree with the shahr as full moon camp as much as you do, although for different reasons so don't get me wrong. You don't like the incosistency of the count and that is understandable but I think as it concerns how many shahr must pass in these different requirements by God to wait or to fast I think the shahr as full moon camp has been clear. I don't believe that shahr means full-moon in the Quranic context either but the inconsistency in the actual time of waiting when it concerns waiting for full moons to pass has been fully and repeatedly explained. Arguing on the basis of this inconsistency (which obviously can vary inconsistently from 88-118 days for the same offense) is pointless. Nun, I don't think Umm Tariq is being unreasonable here. That incosistency of time is consistent with 'the shahr as full moon' idea so there is no point in continuing to argue that. I hope I am not turning you into an enemy, but i don't think they can say it any more clearer. If you want to continue to challenge this belief I think you'll have to do it using another aspect or ramification of this idea. Because you are just arguing something that they already know, have already admitted and that fits with the way they view this issue. There is no Quranic or logical inconsistency with THIS APSECT in the context of the 'shahr as full moon in the Quran' idea.
Thank you for the succint explanation.
Can't you see that your translation of "shahr" to be "month of 30 days" will create the same inconsistency in al-quran?
According to your translation, in the SAME CONTEXT of divorce and menstruation/menopause
Menstruating woman will wait for a minimum of 56 days with a variation of 56-83 days depending on the time of divorce. (222
Menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful will wait for a minimum of 90 days without any variation. (654)
This causes a major inconsistency in the waiting period in the same context of divorce, which defies any logical explanation. Why does a menstruating woman wait for a minimum of 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait a minimum of 90 days ?
-
Peace everyone,
This is for those who claim that "shahr" means "lunar month", and therefore according to God the count of lunar months in a year is twelve per 936.
I have already shown that according to al-quran, the year is solar (combining 1712 and 105). Therefore, if "shahr" means lunar month, then 936 implies to count 12 lunar months/cycles in a solar year. Following is a website which gives the moon phases in a year
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html
I challenge everyone to count the lunar cycles/months in a year and show that there are exactly 12 lunar cycles/months in every year.
You will find that the number of lunar months is 11 every year for 2 years and 12 in the third one, but it is never 12 every year. Similarly, you will find that the count of lunar months is 12.3 every year and not 12.
This conclusively proves that "shahr" cannot mean "lunar month/cycle" in al-quran.
The meaning of "lunar month" also creates other contradictions and inconsistencies in al-quran as shown in a previous post of mine
1 - The count of lunar months in a solar year is 12.3 and not 12 like we are told in 936. The number of lunar months/cycles in a solar year is 11 every year for 2 years and 12 in third year, but it is never 12 every year. If "shahr" is translated as "lunar month", that makes it a time period which can be counted in fractions. Full-moon, on the other hand, is a binary event (either 0 or 1), which is either present or not, and thus cannot be counted in fractions. Translating "shahr" as "lunar month" therefore will contradict 936, because we will never be able to count exactly 12 shuhoor in a solar year.
2 - Why can a menstruating woman wait for a minimum of 56 days but a menopausal woman whose menopause is doubtful has to wait a minimum of 88 days (3 lunar months)? The meaning of "lunar month" in 654 would result in a major inconsistency in al-quran, because then the minimum waiting period for menstruating women would be the time period between 3 menstruations or approximately 56 days but the minimum waiting period for menopausal women whose menopause is doubtful would be 88 days.
3 - All 29 or 30 days have to be witnessed in order to witness/shahida a lunar month. No one can witness a lunar month just on seeing the first day, because lunar month consists of 29 or 30 days, and witnessing one day is not witnessing a lunar month. The only way to fulfill 2185 will be to witness all the 29 or 30 days first and then start fasting, but then how long do we fast? If we start fasting during that lunar month, then we are violating the command to witness it first. Hence it is impossible to witness the lunar month before fasting AND fast during it.
4 - 2185 tells us to fast it (falyasumhu) and not fast in it (falyasum fihi). How can a person fast for 29 or 30 days non-stop? The usage of "fast it" obviously implies that "it" is an event/marker, and not the time period for fasting.
5 - It is a ridiculous redundancy to say "complete the count" after saying "whoever among you witnesses the lunar month then fast it" (meaning fast for 29 or 30 days). There is no clarification needed to complete the count if it is already stated to fast for the number of days in that lunar month.
6 - 2185 mentions descent of al-quran. Translating "shahr" as "lunar month" would mean that al-quran was descended in a month, and this will contradict 443 and 971, which clearly tell us that the descent was in a single night.