Who is one of - Al-kitaab?
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What?
Hi Samia,All,
I didn't understand what you meant.
Books are indeed written by people and don't fall from the sky, but might be inspired by some other power.
And where other then a book can a person find guidance?
Give an example or two, if you can, Thanks.
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I have posted several ayahs indicating to you where the source of the 'kitab' your looking for......
No, here are Signs SELF-EVIDENT IN THE HEARTS OF THOSE ENDOWED WITH KNOWLEDGE. and none but the unjust reject Our Signs.
You they say. "Why are not Signs sent down to him from his Lord?" Say. "THE SIGNS ARE INDEED WITH ALLAH. and I am indeed a clear Warner."
We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, that you may be able to understand (and learn wisdom).
And verily, it is in the Mother of the Book, in Our Presence, high (in dignity), full of wisdom.
You wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts / olaika kataba fee quloobihimu al-eemana
I think you are saying, its either in the heart or in the quran! which?
Thanks.
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Assalaam Alaikum @Samia...
The 'form' of a verb..does allow context and relevance to be understood. Suggesting the 'root' meaning remains 'fixed' as the 'forms' of a verb change, has no support grammatically.
Salaam MTR
I haven't even mentioned "root". What I meant is that if the original verb (form I) is changed into another form, this does not give it a completely different meaning. You have copied the same principle when you said
Personally, I would suggest that the word 'tafseel' is a verbal noun, which denotes an ideal, a concept and a verbal action. (its also a verb form II which suggests emphasis, force, repetition and causative; something is influencing the behavior of the verb)
I would also suggest that you change whatever you copy and paste from because it is full of errors. I will correct it in "red"
Fassala (with shaddah) IMPERATIVE command, perfect, 3rd person
The masdar takes the pattern of (fu?ool). The pattern of the masdr changes according to the form of the verb. Form I is irregulr regarding the pattern of the masdr and what you mentioned is only one pattern of those of form I. Fasala does not even have this pattern for its masdr. The masdr from form II has the pattern taf3eel, hence tafseel for fassala
Fasala / Fassala are VERBS one perfect the other an imperative command both which require a Subject and/or Object. Both are perfect. All verbs in Arabic require a subject ;D, so this is really not a point to be mentioned
Allah is using the imperative verb 'Fassal' in a 'accusative / mansoob case with the verbal noun / masdar 'Tafseelan'. Double error First, it's perfect (past) and not an imperatif (command). Secondly, the imperative is never mansoob (accusative), but majzoom, even if its case ending is a fatha.
The Object of the verb 'Fassalnahu' is the verbal noun / masdar 'Tafseel'. "fassalnahu" is a complete sentence with verb, subject and object (the suffixed pronoun hu). Tafseel is an absolute accusative (maf3uul muTlaq) whose function is to emphasize the verb. It's difficult to translte it in this context, except as in the way the target language applies emphasis
We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs. the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and THAT YOU MAY KNOW THE NUMBER AND COUNT OF THE YEARS. all things have We explained in detail / kulla shayin fassalnahu tafseelan.
WajaAAalna allayla waalnnahara ayatayni famahawna ayata allayli wajaAAalna ayata alnnahari mubsiratan litabtaghoo fadlan min rabbikum walitaAAlamoo AAadada alssineena waalhisaba wa kulla shayin fassalnahu tafseelan
What I see here is that you are just forcing the word (explain). This is detailed only, no need for explaining. What's being "explained"? And how is it detailed? By showing the signs by seperating the description, and purpose, of night from that of day, and from the use of both of them for counting and timing.
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I haven't even mentioned "root". What I meant is that if the original verb (form I) is changed into another form, this does not give it a completely different meaning. You have copied the same principle when you said
@Samia...excuse me...Im not clear on what you attempting to say in the previous statement. Is'nt that what I stated? I believe we are both using the word 'root' and 'form' interchangeably. That doesnt make you correct or me wrong.
@Samia your statement "I would also suggest that you change whatever you copy and paste from because it is full of errors. I will correct it in "red""
I dont see any errors that you have identified. I notice you are completely off point and misrepresented what I have conveyed. Did you actually 'consider' what I posted?
@Samia...your statement..."What I see here is that you are just forcing the word (explain). This is detailed only, no need for explaining. What's being "explained"? And how is it detailed? By showing the signs by seperating the description, and purpose, of night from that of day, and from the use of both of them for counting and timing."
Again, did you actually 'consider' and give some credence to what I posted? I referenced Al Marwid's definitives of Fasala, Fassala and Tafseel, how is that 'forcing'? Did you miss that?
Then I gave you the definitive of a verbal noun /masdar (Tafseel) and its application and identification as it relates to Sura's 1037 and 1712. Did you miss that too?
Tafseela / Tafseelan is a Verbal Noun / Masdar, period and is the OBJECT in the Accusative Case in Sura 17.12 'fassalanahu tafseelan' & Sura 1037 'tafseela al-kitabi'
Reference Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi@Samia...your statement..'Fassala (with shaddah) IMPERATIVE command, perfect, 3rd person'
Not sure what the relevance of this point, its perfect & 3rd person...yet the words we are focusing on are 'Tafseela / Tafseelan' and 'Fassalnahu' (1st Person, perfect verb Verb Form II)
@Samia...your statement "The masdar takes the pattern of (fu?ool). The pattern of the masdr changes according to the form of the verb. Form I is irregulr regarding the pattern of the masdr and what you mentioned is only one pattern of those of form I. Fasala does not even have this pattern for its masdr. The masdr from form II has the pattern taf3eel, hence tafseel for fassala"
Excuse me, but the point and focus was the identification of 'Tafseel' as a verbal noun / masdar. Not the changing 'patterns of the masdar as it relates to the verb's 'fasala / fassala'.
Oh by the way I did state that 'Tafseel' was verb form II....
@Samia...your statement..."Fasala / Fassala are VERBS one perfect the other an imperative command both which require a Subject and/or Object. Both are perfect. All verbs in Arabic require a subject , so this is really not a point to be mentioned"
Its called in a intellectual discussion....'Edification', 'to edify'
@Samia....your statement..."Allah is using the imperative verb 'Fassal' in a 'accusative / mansoob case with the verbal noun / masdar 'Tafseelan'. Double error First, it's perfect (past) and not an imperatif (command). Secondly, the imperative is never mansoob (accusative), but majzoom, even if its case ending is a fatha."
Again your 'off point', I cant make an error If I never implied the reference. I never stated or implied that Fassalna-hu is mansoob or majzoom...I will allow you to determine whether its imperative or not...Fassal-na
@Samia your statement..."The Object of the verb 'Fassalnahu' is the verbal noun / masdar 'Tafseel'. "fassalnahu" is a complete sentence with verb, subject and object (the suffixed pronoun hu). Tafseel is an absolute accusative (maf3uul muTlaq) whose function is to emphasize the verb. It's difficult to translte it in this context, except as in the way the target language applies emphasis"
ok, got that, Actually the masdar can be used interchangeably, it can be the object of the verb (fassalnahu tafseelan) and/or the masdar (tafseelan) can assume the 'goal of the verb' with an Object / Definite Noun (tafseela al-kitabi)
Assalaam Alaikum @Samia....
May I convey my intention on this forum. I am NOT here to engage in 'personalizing' the topics or the threads. I sincerely enjoy sharing ideas and perceptions out of mutual respect and consideration for the intellect of others.
No one individual knows everything and all things about the guidance of Allah and the language of the Quran, yet we all have something to share
and much to learn.Personally, I dont take the position that someone is 'wrong' or that I have to 'correct' the perceptions of others to align themselves with my understanding or egotiscal desires.
I hope we continue with mutual respect, critical analysis and understanding.
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May I convey my intention on this forum. I am NOT here to engage in 'personalizing' the topics or the threads. I sincerely enjoy sharing ideas and perceptions out of mutual respect and consideration for the intellect of others.
No one individual knows everything and all things about the guidance of Allah and the language of the Quran, yet we all have something to share
and much to learn.Personally, I dont take the position that someone is 'wrong' or that I have to 'correct' the perceptions of others to align themselves with my understanding or egotiscal desires.
I hope we continue with mutual respect, critical analysis and understanding.
Salaam MTR
This forum is for discussion and learning. I can't see an error and ignore it just to not "offend" the poster. I do not understand why you are taking it personal, and defending them, when it was not even you who made these errors. It was not me who introduced grammar and grammatical analysis. I did not comment the first time you copied and pasted errors. But when it is repeated it, I advised you to change whatever reference of linguistic analysis you were using. I, for one, would not trust any reference claimng to explain language and is full of mistakes, no matter which "scholar" wrote it. This, or the mistake is from you by copying and pasting wrong entries. These are other mistakes from one of your "copy and paste" posts yesterday
Inna sanulqee AAalayka qawlan thaqeelan
qawlan (tanwin-fatha, plural, feminine)
and
Muzzammil (Active Participle, masculine, singular, Verb Form = VIII reflexive, declarant
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Assalaam Alaikum @Samia
You have NOT shown or illustrated any mistakes in what I have conveyed thus far. In fact I was in error regarding this statement
"Tafseela / Tafseelan is a Verbal Noun / Masdar, period and is the OBJECT in the Accusative Case in Sura 17.12 'fassalanahu tafseelan' & Sura 1037 'tafseela al-kitabi'"
Actually, 'tafseela al-kitabi' in Sura 1037 is in the Genitive NOT the Accusative. 'Al Kitabi' is a Definite Noun, thus the verbal noun 'Tafseel' becomes a definite noun.
Assalaam Alaikum @Samia
Your statement Samia..."These are other mistakes from one of your "copy and paste" posts yesterday"
and you asserted that the following were in error
Inna sanulqee AAalayka qawlan thaqeelan
qawlan (tanwin-fatha, plural, feminine)
@Samia the ayah
Samia as you can see has a tanwiin fatha, which makes the word indefinite, plural and feminine.
But Samia, for some reason in the Free Minds "Translation of the Glorious Qur`an" in the Arabic of Sura 73 Muzammil ayah / verse 5 http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/73/5 the tanwiin fatha's are MISSING!
In fact the tanwiin fatha's are missing on BOTH "qawlan thaqeelan" in the Arabic!
Confirmation Reference Grammatical Analysis of the Holy Quran (Arabic) by Grand Mufti of Egypt, Prof. Dr. Muhammed Sayed Tantawi Reviewed by Mohammed Fahim Abou 'Oubayya (page 773 Surah Al Muzzamil ayah 5)
@Samia again you made another assertion that the word 'muzammil' is NOT a Verb Form VII. You gave no illustration or reference as to why you made that observation.
'Muzzammil (Active Participle, masculine, singular, Verb Form = VIII reflexive, declarant'
I will illustrate the morphology by showing you how to decompose the word from its root 'Zamala' to Verb Form VIII 'Iz'milu / Uz'milu' (other derivatives) and the Active Participle 'Muzzamil'
To derive the Verb Form VIII to the root word 'Zamala' (to bear something) you have to understand the grammatical process of 'Assimilation'.
The Verb Form VII 'infixes' a 'Ta' as the second radical / letter of the verb, but the 'Za' is a consonant that 'assimilates' the infixed 'Ta' and thus 'Zamala' decomposed to its FINAL verb form EIGHT would be 'Iz'milu / Uz'milu' and various other Verb Form VIII derivatives. (prefixed by alif-hamza with / without 'sukoon over the 'Za', dammah, kesra, fatha, shaddah, etc.)
Confirming References 'Language of the Holy Quran' by Nadwi page 253 - 254 (Assimilation Process / Rules of Assimilation)
Lanes Lexicon Part 3 page 1252 - 1253 (Verb Form VIII derivatives)*Deriving the active particle 'Muzzammil' is rather simple process
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Salaam MTR
Although the grammaticl function of a word has no effect on its meaning, and there was no need for you to make a grammatical analysis, but I am sorry I can not allow an error to be posted if I know it is an error and that I can correct it. I am sorry this will take us off topic.
First of all, the meaning of "tafseelan" in "fassalnahu tafseelan", does not change by the way it is used in verse 1037 (wa tafseela alkitaab), but their grammatical analysis is completely different, and you got both of them wrong
fassalnahu tafseela tafseela is an absolute accusative used for emphasis. It's in the accusative, evidently!! (mansoob).
tafseela alkitaab (I wonder how you say it is in the genetive and write it in the accusative!) predicate of the verb (kaana, in the beginning of the verse), in the accusative.In this sentence, the only plural is the first pronoun (inna) and the verb conjugated to the plural, first person. And nothing is feminine.
In fact the tanwiin fatha's are missing on BOTH "qawlan thaqeelan" in the Arabic!
They are not missing. The two "alifs" show they are there!
'Muzzammil (Active Participle, masculine, singular, Verb Form = VIII reflexive, declarant'
This is form V. Please study your verb forms here
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/AppendixArabic_verb_forms
And please, no grammatical analysis if they do not serve anything!
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Assalaam Alaikum @Samia....
Obviously there is a disconnect here...your concurring (agreement) with (some of) the same points I have stated in the beginning of this thread!
In regards to the missing tanwiins in the Free Minds Arabic....lets try this again...
Help me out here Samia Do you see any tanwiin? Do you know what a tanwiin looks like?
http//free-minds.org/quran/PM/73/5
Now look at Arabic from this site http//www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/
What do you see different?
In addition there are a number of vowels MISSING from the Free Minds Arabic!!!
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Salaam MTR
The ACCUSATIVE tanween is not just the two short lines that look like two fat7as but ALSO the alif that carries them. It's the only tashkeel that's evident even when the whole text does not carry any tashkeel. And because of this alif which is not an original part of the word but serves as a seat for this accusative tanween, we cannot say the tanween is not there. This is different from the genetive and nominative tanween.
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Salaam MTR
The ACCUSATIVE tanween is not just the two short lines that look lie two fat7as but ALSO the alif that carries them. It's the only tashkeel that's evident even when the whole text does not carry any tashkeel. And because of this alif which is not an original part of the word but serves as a seat for this accusative tanween, we cannot say the tanween is not there. This is different from the genetive and nominative tanween.
What?
Excuse me, whoever or where ever you found that answer, It doesnt make any sense. You cant determine Accusative Case without determining subject & object (one fatha other dammah generally).
The tanwiin influences those determinatives in Sura Muzzamil 735.
Besides (As VERBS) qawla and thaqeela have to be 3rd person singular in an accusative case. With tanwiin, they are NOT 3rd person singular they are VERBAL Nouns.
The ONLY way that can be done with Sura 735 is to MODIFY the Arabic, and erase the tanwiin!
Inna sanulqee AAalayka qawlan thaqeelan
sanulqee AAalayka
Sanulqee is in 1st person, plural, Verb Form IV meaning 'we send or bestow' now, present tense
AAalayka 2nd person, singular meaning upon YOU, now, present tenseqawlan is a verbal noun (meaning Command, Word) Samia and the tanwiin completes the accusative case by the verbal noun 'qawlan'.
The preceding verb(s) 'sanulqee alayka' govern the 'subject' of the accusative case which is the noun...qawlan
Samia If we follow YOUR Arabic translation in modern arabic, we find that the ayah loses its relevance and context.
Thus without the tanwiin, qawlan and thaqeelan become qawla and thaqeela as verbs in the accusative and are '3rd person, masculine, singular'. Neither qawla nor thaqeela WITHOUT the tanwiin are verbal nouns!
Thus you lose the accusative case in the ayah and the nominative case between qawlan and thaqeelan (thaqeel becomes active participle)
Allah does NOT bestow a message in past tense during the PRESENT
Unbelievable.....
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Salaaman all,
Please check if it is of any help to anyone to understand more?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=10045.0
Regards,
mmKhanAssalaam Alaikum @mmkhan
Thank You, The issue of Al Kitab has been addressed and its relevance, attributes and influence seems to be open for debate and 'modification' too.
I would certainly welcome another 'set' of eyes on the topic.
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Assalaam Alaikum Samia
Sura 73 Muzzamil Ayah 5
By the way its a verbal sentence, the ayah begins with a verb. A Verbal Sentence requires a Subject and Object. If you erase the tanwiins, you have no objects of the verb, the Verbal Nouns qawlan & thaqeelan.
Oh and of course you lose your Nominative Case construct which requires BOTH nouns of equal number and gender.
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Salaam MTR
When one reads the above sentence, one would immediately know it is in the accusative tanween, thanks to the alifs . However, if it were
Then you would not know whether it is or but will never wonder if it were
This is the last time I discuss this issue with you. Others are free to trust your grammtical analysis.
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Sura Al Araf 7162
Sura Al Baqarah 259
Sura Al Kahf 1893
Sura Ta Ha 2089
Sura Ta Ha 2044
Is it Qila, Qula or Qawlan?
The point, is you cant 'translate' the Quran in 'Standard Modern Arabic' and suggest that the context and relevance of the Quran remains. Its no different from translating the Quran in any other language, you lose case, constructs, verbal forms, tense, number, gender, etc.
I trust in Allah,swt.
Kind words and the covering of faults are better than charity / sadaqatin followed by injury. Allah is free of all wants, and He is Most-Forbearing.
Sadaqa meaning sincerity, truthfulness, hold others as trustworthy, one who confirms the truth
O you who believe! cancel not your charity by reminders of your generosity or by injury,- like those who spend their substance to be seen of men, but believe neither in Allah nor in the Last Day. They are in parable like a hard, barren rock, on which is a little soil. on it falls heavy rain, which leaves it (Just) a bare stone. They will be able to do nothing with aught they have earned. And Allah guideth not those who reject faith.
And the likeness of those who spend their substance, seeking to please Allah and to strengthen their souls, is as a garden, high and fertile. heavy rain falls on it but makes it yield a double increase of harvest, and if it receives not Heavy rain, light moisture sufficeth it. Allah seeth well whatever you do.