Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Peace Ayman,
It is highly unlikely that the meanings you gave are older given how extremely specific they are. Usually, etymology has its root in a general meaning that then branches out later into more specific ones. Have you checked the occurrences of ?fitna? in the great reading to see if in any of them it means ?to purify gold, to burn rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment?? I checked all the occurrences and none of the contexts suggest those specific meanings. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the above specific meanings are suggested by the context.
For example, in 653 the past tense verb ?fatana? clearly means ?tested/tried? or ?tempted? and not ?purified gold? or ?burned rubbish in a fire to clean up the encampment? and not even ?purified? or ?burned?. In the few instances in the great reading where the term ?fitna? means punishment, one can see that even when punishment can be the meaning, undergoing a difficult trial is still the common concept. This is the same way when in English one says ?this is a trying event? to mean this is a difficult or painful event. On the other hand, burning or purifying is not the common concept in all the other occurrences.
There are mutliple passages where purifying fits as the testing is meant to purify the true intentions from the false. When I have time, we can check some verses.
Again, this is a very specialized meaning. It is highly unlikely that it is an older meaning than the more generalized one. Again going through all the occurrences of the word ?nar? in the great reading, none of them suggests the meaning of ?mark?. If you disagree, then please point to even a single passage where the meaning of ?mark? is suggested by the context (you can?t use 7431 as a circular argument).
Again there are mutliple verses that me refer to being marked with consequence, which is represented by fire burning away the potential for further development. But that discussion is for later.
You criticize exclusive statements but then you turn around and try to make the verse fit the idea of your exclusive statement that ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of the Qur'anic text?. You have essentially started out from this exclusive statement and worked backwards and spread your net wide to find any remote meanings such as ?purify? and ?mark? that would make 7431 fit this exclusive statement. Thus, you ignore the fact that the word ?quran? is not even mentioned at all in the entire chapter and what is mentioned are the unappreciative. So if you really believe that those are the correct meanings and you want to use them then you should say ?19 is a purifying method and controls the purity of those who have been unappreciative?. But this of course, doesn?t make any sense.
I brought it up in the discussion as there many possible meanings of the words in the verses involved, and I saw exclusive statements being made which only represented a limited view on the verses. As the post said, why for example can't it mean something like this? It is not an exclusive statement but a question. I hope you can see the difference and also the intention of the post instead of smelling a maybe 19 idea and then make accusations.
If my suggestion is correct or incorrect is something future reflection decides. Untill then I observe the discussion, but as always I take your comments seriously.
No, we absolutely can?t. Have you got a pattern yourself before asking such questions? I guarantee that the answer is no because you seem to me like an honest person. The only sort of pattern people claim is by conducting trial and error using various methods and hiding the failed trials and presenting the successful ones or copying the results of people who did so before them.
No, I haven't, I have only observed many claims and counter-arguments and deduce the best conclusion from there on. But I have seen that amateur-claims were used to refute the whole idea of a possibility of 19, which to me is a dishonest and unscientific way to debunk something.
There is no such thing as ?discoverer? because you and no one else have scientifically proven any discovery. Indeed as a person, I agree that we can leave Khalifa out. However, read my posts. I only bring Khalifa in and criticize him as a ?translator? because he messed up every single passage that he translated and where he claims that it is either about him or his invented Code 19. Are you saying that we shouldn?t criticize Yusufali and any translator in their capacity as professional translators?
Agreed.
But there is ZERO evidence for a Code 19 in the great reading. All the evidence is tied to the methods that Code 19 hunters use. Change the method and the code vanishes into thin air. So we certainly have to look at the methods. You are pushing for a scientific approach but you are ignoring the fact that ?method? is more important than ?result? in science. Take this advice from a real scientist METHOD IS IMPORTANT.
Hold your horses. I referred to Khalifa's methods as they are completely contradicting one another and he was a complete amateur. Till now I have only seen amateur claims being refuted and debunked. This was my point. I want to see a scientific test study where a main method could be created that give constant validate results. If this can't be produced, then it will be clear 19 is false. I never said method itself is not important. I have studied Biochemistry and Microbiology, so you aren't the only REAL scientist here.
So take the word from another real scientist To much emotion is involved here and amateur-claims used to debunk a whole concept. This is unscientific.
Look inside you and you will see that what you are saying is false. Are you saying that you have never been tempted your entire life? Who do you think gave you your wealth that is a temptation for you? Who do you think created beautiful women who are a temptation for you? Etc. The temptation is not a trick, it is a test and the test is rational. How we handle the test can be irrational but this irrationality is from us and has nothing to do with the god.
You translate the word as 'temptation', which I do not believe presents the term fatana correctly. Testing to purify the real intentions and potentials is a better rendition which also gives a different intention to the things involved. Wealth is a good and blessed thing when it is gained in the correct way and spend in the correct way. Easy roads to wealth using for example stealing is in reality a reflection of a lack of confidence and empathy and not having a faith in future results. It is a mix of pure survival instinct that directs a person into being dominant over others to be the strongest. It is a subconcious fear of shortage and to be low on the social scale.
My fiancee is breathtaking beautiful, but she is not a temptation for me. Other beautiful women are no real temptation as I am not interested in short gained results (dunya), I have learned to think in long term results (akhirat).
In both cases, the fitna is to learn to rise above the simple instincts of survival and direct them yourself instead of being directed by them.
Most people who believe in 19 believe it is a sort of path to salvation, thus it represents again a form of the inner desire of survival using the least amount of effort. This is always the main reason for people creating religion and the concept of salvation. This attracted all the loonies to it as they try to abuse it for their own inner need of being of importance, the so-called messenger/messiah syndrom. For them indeed it is a clear testing stone, as their lack of selfcontrol and confidence is showed by 19. On this agree with you.
I think that you have to let go of your own emotional attachment to Code 19 first and present your own scientific evidence from an objective point of view before making any claims about scientific merit.
I think I have shown the least amount of emotion in this discussion. You cannot deny the fact that no real specialist has been involved to give a real serious go to see if their is a scientific method to be created around 19. Only amateurs who are easy to debunk and attack.
I am no mathematician on a high level, so I'm careful to make any claims. This is why I am more focussed on the cosmology, philosophical and theological side of the Qur'an since I am trained in those professions as I have studied Biochemistry, Physics, Microbiology, Philosophy and Theology on college level.
This settles it then. I am a scientist and I am ready to debate any other real scientist on this numerology of Code 19. Until then, you shouldn?t base believe in Code 19 numerology on your unscientific approach which ignores the methods and focuses on the results.
Good, and I hope in the future we find another person with the same degrees in mathematics and Arabic language to investigate.
As for the rest, you do not know what I believe or what I base it on, so be more careful in your 'advices' as I never said results stand above method. This is what you believed after misreading my post due, what I believe is involved, your clear emotional bias to the whole subject. I have seen the same kneejerk responses with Edip on the opposite side.
If you dislike me sitting in the middle, this is not my problem. But do not try to twist it into being unscientific, since objectivity and openmindness with scepticism towards both sides is the scientific method.
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Arnold said
So take the word from another real scientist To much emotion is involved here and amateur-claims used to debunk a whole concept. This is unscientific.You keep impressing upon others about you being a scientist.Why dont you produce something more for us to discern from Aymans post instead of making fanciful denial statments that doesnt sink .The analogy of your rebuttals are like composites that looks like a metal but floats on water.
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what does 19 have to do wit numberology. Im a numberologist. From what I know is the number 19 is a karmic number.
What was Rashid full name and birthdate. Who knows, he may have the number 19 in his profile.
And again, if those two verses was removed, what harm would it really do, or what message will be missing from Quran?
And aymen said they use differnt methods, how many methods? How do you know that each method is not a key?
And also who is it for to protect the quran? Is it for us humans to protect it by removing them verses and the 19? Or is it for God to protect it?
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what does 19 have to do wit numberology. Im a numberologist. From what I know is the number 19 is a karmic number.
What was Rashid full name and birthdate. Who knows, he may have the number 19 in his profile.
And again, if those two verses was removed, what harm would it really do, or what message will be missing from Quran?
And aymen said they use differnt methods, how many methods? How do you know that each method is not a key?
And also who is it for to protect the quran? Is it for us humans to protect it by removing them verses and the 19? Or is it for God to protect it?
Peace
It is protected by GODWe have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise
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Peace Supernaut,
you saidBut what will help you determine if something is true or false? I suppose you ignore what you can't determine to be true or false. That approach will never satisfy me though.
You can determine most things to be true or false. You just have to verify them through yours or someone else's experiences.
People think that prostrating prevents us from doing bad deeds. I know that to be false because I know people who prostrate all the time but do bad deeds anyway.
You don't NEED to know where a certain piece of information comes from, because you are looking for the truth.
Since you pointed out a logical fallacy, you should be familiar with the one called "ad hominem." It's a fallacy because WHO says something doesn't matter. What matters is WHAT is said.You can't say something is true because God said it.
Which brings us back to my original point - it is the content that matters, not the source.
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Peace Arnold,
There are mutliple passages where purifying fits as the testing is meant to purify the true intentions from the false. When I have time, we can check some verses.
Yes the effect of the test can be to purify but the effect doesn't change the meaning from "test" to "purify". The basic meaning is still to test.
Again there are mutliple verses that me refer to being marked with consequence, which is represented by fire burning away the potential for further development. But that discussion is for later.
A fire can scar a person but this doesn't mean that "fire" means "scar". You are again confusing the meaning of the cause with that of the effect.
I brought it up in the discussion as there many possible meanings of the words in the verses involved, and I saw exclusive statements being made which only represented a limited view on the verses. As the post said, why for example can't it mean something like this? It is not an exclusive statement but a question. I hope you can see the difference and also the intention of the post instead of smelling a maybe 19 idea and then make accusations.
Yes, I saw that this is a question and this is why I answered why it can't mean that. However, before hearing any answer, you jumped to the following preconceived conclusion
From a scientific point of view, it is logical a sort of interlocking system is present within a text that makes the claim to come from the First Cause.
I apologize if I sounded too critical but jumping to a preconceived fancy conclusion that doesn't really mean anything is not scientific.
If my suggestion is correct or incorrect is something future reflection decides. Untill then I observe the discussion, but as always I take your comments seriously.
I totally agree with suggesting questions to be considered but meanwhile we shouldn't jump or even suggest any baseless conclusions.
No, I haven't, I have only observed many claims and counter-arguments and deduce the best conclusion from there on. But I have seen that amateur-claims were used to refute the whole idea of a possibility of 19, which to me is a dishonest and unscientific way to debunk something.
The burden of proof is on those who want to prove a positive, the presence of a code. So amateur claims trying to prove a negative are irrelevant anyway. I told Code 19 hunters how they can easily prove the existence of the code. They simply have to document all their trials and share both the successful and failed trials and then we can see the ratio. This is all. It is not rocket science. All it requires is intellectual honesty. Unfortunately, NONE of them came forward.
Hold your horses. I referred to Khalifa's methods as they are completely contradicting one another and he was a complete amateur. Till now I have only seen amateur claims being refuted and debunked. This was my point. I want to see a scientific test study where a main method could be created that give constant validate results. If this can't be produced, then it will be clear 19 is false. I never said method itself is not important. I have studied Biochemistry and Microbiology, so you aren't the only REAL scientist here. So take the word from another real scientist To much emotion is involved here and amateur-claims used to debunk a whole concept. This is unscientific.
Great. So tell this to Code 19 hunters and good luck getting an answer. They will most likely give you the same answer that they gave me when I asked them to properly document their trials.
You translate the word as 'temptation', which I do not believe presents the term fatana correctly. Testing to purify the real intentions and potentials is a better rendition which also gives a different intention to the things involved. Wealth is a good and blessed thing when it is gained in the correct way and spend in the correct way. Easy roads to wealth using for example stealing is in reality a reflection of a lack of confidence and empathy and not having a faith in future results. It is a mix of pure survival instinct that directs a person into being dominant over others to be the strongest. It is a subconcious fear of shortage and to be low on the social scale.
My fiancee is breathtaking beautiful, but she is not a temptation for me. Other beautiful women are no real temptation as I am not interested in short gained results (dunya), I have learned to think in long term results (akhirat).
In both cases, the fitna is to learn to rise above the simple instincts of survival and direct them yourself instead of being directed by them.Of course a test by temptation as you describe above is temptation. What makes the test not a temptation for you is that you are rational. For those who are not rational, it becomes a temptation. So as I said it depends 100% on the person's reaction. This is why the passage singles out the unappreciative.
Most people who believe in 19 believe it is a sort of path to salvation, thus it represents again a form of the inner desire of survival using the least amount of effort. This is always the main reason for people creating religion and the concept of salvation. This attracted all the loonies to it as they try to abuse it for their own inner need of being of importance, the so-called messenger/messiah syndrom. For them indeed it is a clear testing stone, as their lack of selfcontrol and confidence is showed by 19. On this agree with you.
Exactly. I couldn't have put it any better. So now knowing this, you should know what the test is about. 7431 is about the people not about the great reading.
I think I have shown the least amount of emotion in this discussion. You cannot deny the fact that no real specialist has been involved to give a real serious go to see if their is a scientific method to be created around 19. Only amateurs who are easy to debunk and attack.
All numerology is inherently extremely easy to debunk. Why do you think no one ever asks the "experts" about their failed trials on those Discovery Channel or BBC documentaries about the Bible Code?
I am no mathematician on a high level, so I'm careful to make any claims. This is why I am more focussed on the cosmology, philosophical and theological side of the Qur'an since I am trained in those professions as I have studied Biochemistry, Physics, Microbiology, Philosophy and Theology on college level.
You are assuming that Code 19 is "mathematics" and this is an unfounded assumption. Have you ever investigated a pattern in any of those fields by using trial and error and hiding failed trials and then presenting only successful trials and claiming that there is a pattern? I think you have enough scientific background and common sense to know the answer.
Good, and I hope in the future we find another person with the same degrees in mathematics and Arabic language to investigate.
But I don't need to. The burden of proof is on those who make positive extra ordinary claims.
As for the rest, you do not know what I believe or what I base it on, so be more careful in your 'advices' as I never said results stand above method. This is what you believed after misreading my post due, what I believe is involved, your clear emotional bias to the whole subject. I have seen the same kneejerk responses with Edip on the opposite side.
If you dislike me sitting in the middle, this is not my problem. But do not try to twist it into being unscientific, since objectivity and openmindness with scepticism towards both sides is the scientific method.There is no middle. A positive extra ordinary claim is either proven or not proven. By default it is not proven until proven. On the other hand, I would not mind you being in the middle of the debate. Perhaps, you could be the moderator for the debate if this is something that you would be interested in.
Peace,
Ayman
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No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.
Peace
Would you please explain the flaw in following;
No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.
This initial prefixes three suras,
7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence
of the letter "S" (Saad) in these three
suras is 152, 19x8 (Table 2). It is
noteworthy that in 769, the word "Bastatan"
is written in some printings with a "Saad,"
instead of "Seen." This is an erroneous
distortion that violates the Quran's code.
By looking at the oldest available copy of
the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found
that the word "Bastatan" is correctly written with a "Seenhttp//y19.net/q-tash.gif
Table 2 The Frequency of
Occurrence of the
Letter "S" in the
Saad-initialed Suras
Sura Frequency of "S"
7 97
19 26
38 29
152 (19x8
Would you explain more in detail with reference to above .
Peace. -
Salaam Bahman
Do I understand that the Tashkand copy is the basis for all your calculations?
salaam Samia
I personally do not do such checking for my own work as that one is copy and no matter how any copies exist.
Now we have very solid and prefect tool to check copies and purify GR not only for spelling but for any other manipulation may have entered the book.
This is the way that God has planned to reveal proof of book at this era when people are educated and have access to this screen as we can not examine and test works without using this creature.
Peace. -
Peace Ayman,
Yes the effect of the test can be to purify but the effect doesn't change the meaning from "test" to "purify". The basic meaning is still to test.
To test for example a purity of somethign through a certain method, so the concept still counts.
The burden of proof is on those who want to prove a positive, the presence of a code. So amateur claims trying to prove a negative are irrelevant anyway. I told Code 19 hunters how they can easily prove the existence of the code. They simply have to document all their trials and share both the successful and failed trials and then we can see the ratio. This is all. It is not rocket science. All it requires is intellectual honesty. Unfortunately, NONE of them came forward.
Agreed, the burden of the proof is always on the claimants. And i am also very dissapointed in the way they handle critism and adopting scientific methods in their research. I hope this improves in the future.
Exactly. I couldn't have put it any better. So now knowing this, you should know what the test is about. 7431 is about the people not about the great reading.
I agree this is one of the meanings of the verse, but I am not convinced this is the exclusive meaning of the verse.
On the other hand, I would not mind you being in the middle of the debate. Perhaps, you could be the moderator for the debate if this is something that you would be interested in.
I had thought of this also when Edip first posted the announcement of the debate, I will see if I can join or moderate it. But if i cannot, it is still important to have a moderator.
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The 'religion' has been corrupted due to wrong approaches, not by the text itself. As for certain outcomes of 19 that could be reliable, the debate must be between scientists to review a logical and rational result wherein all results and ideas are reflected. I think WE, you and me shouldn't do anything. These matters should be for specialists, not for people who aren't qualified for this.
It is like a cow, the farmer is only interested in getting the best milk, meat and leather out of the animal. Only a scientist is interested in the DNA, and is the only one qualified to research it because of his/her training. Because we know the DNA of the cow, doesn't make the cow more or less cow, it remains as it is. I believe the same counts for the Qur'an. Sadly we had to many mad scientists with Wikipedia knowledge screwing around.
Peace Arnold.
That is not new, in older time and even now in Mohammedans territories are not allowed to interpret and understand GR without a Middle man called scholar, clergy, sheikh, imam, and highest position Ayatollah as Specialist. )
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15142.msg142845#msg142845
Then
Who are does scientist?
Who proves their qualification?
Why you are encouraging such path for people to understand messages by specialist when you agreeSadly we had to many mad scientists with Wikipedia knowledge screwing around
And the God clearly authored these messages
The Most Gracious.
Teacher of the Quran
551-2
We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
5412-22-32-40
Do not move your tongue to hasten it. It is we who will collect it into Quran. Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran Then it is we who will explain it.
7516-19
Peace. -
For those who would like to see the hadith-sunna-based distortions made on verses of chapter 74 in opposition to 20114, please see my exposition titled Which one do you see Hell or Miracle? at
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0
No wonder Ayman cannot witness Quran's great signs His eyes and mind are clouded with the smoke of Hellfiire, "Nothing but Hellfire!"
Peace,
EdipI see Hell fire in 7430
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596963.msg180496#msg180496
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I see Hell fire in 7430
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596963.msg180496#msg180496
Good for you.
Peace,
Edip -
Good for you.
Peace,
EdipYep, sure is good for me. All praises to God, the worlds Lord.
peace
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salam all,
easy easy dear people, 7431 talks about the guardians of the fire(hell) not 7430 it just say -Upon it is nineteen.
But when reading further the verse(7431) says that this number of the guardian(19) is make known to be a test for the rejecters and that the believers should have no doubt and be increased in faith. So well if that is a miracle or not I will left unsaid but sure there is something special about this number.Maria
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salam all,
easy easy dear people, 7431 talks about the guardians of the fire(hell) not 7430 it just say -Upon it is nineteen.
But when reading further the verse(7431) says that this number of the guardian(19) is make known to be a test for the rejecters and that the believers should have no doubt and be increased in faith. So well if that is a miracle or not I will left unsaid but sure there is something special about this number.Maria
Peace,
Either way it is from God isnt it? test or miricle. either way it would be divinly inspired right?Peace
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salam all,
easy easy dear people, 7431 talks about the guardians of the fire(hell) not 7430 it just say -Upon it is nineteen.
But when reading further the verse(7431) says that this number of the guardian(19) is make known to be a test for the rejecters and that the believers should have no doubt and be increased in faith. So well if that is a miracle or not I will left unsaid but sure there is something special about this number.Maria
Salaam sister
How is going?
Finally you are interested in code .
?believers should have no doubt and be increased in faith.?
Should believers go hell to count 19 angels to remove their doubt and increase in faith or before we leave this life.?
What you think. ?
I am exhausted and slowing down but your presence keep me here for while.
Peace. -
Peace Maria
easy easy dear people, 7431 talks about the guardians of the fire(hell) not 7430 it just say -Upon it is nineteen.
But when reading further the verse(7431) says that this number of the guardian(19) is make known to be a test for the rejecters and that the believers should have no doubt and be increased in faith. So well if that is a miracle or not I will left unsaid but sure there is something special about this number.7431 says that this number of the guardian (19) is only a test for the rejecters. Eveything else, "the believers should have no doubt and be increased in faith", etc. is a result of the whole underlined part, not a result of the number. Here is the Free-Minds translation
7431
FREE-MINDS And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number except as a trial for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say ?What did God mean with an example such as this?? It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.Cause is underlined and effect is in bold.
Peace,
Ayman
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Should believers go hell to count 19 angels to remove their doubt and increase in faith or before we leave this life.?
What you think. ?No, but the believers should not doubt that there are 19 angels who guard Hell. And whoever does, they are in denyal of the Hearafter. Code 19 has prevented you from understanding something more significant than the worldly example of 19 being over the Quran- the future of the Hearafter.
He thought and analized. Then he said " verse 9128-129 are nothin but the words of a human. Can it be that there are 19 angels guarding Hell?" Thus they do not fear the Hearafter. Untill ceratinty comes to them.
So concluding, there is no doubt with the believers that there are 19 angels who guard the Fire and it only increases the faith of the believers in God to protect His Book and so on, and since the rejecters dont believe in the Hearafter they caint understand that what is ment by the example of the angels, the fire, and their number; is only to inform you and warn you, so they will ask what is ment by the example. And they will ask about it untill they invent a lie about God.