Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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Does believing/disbelieving in 19 make you a better submitter/worse submitter than what you currently are ? Is it really necessary?..what is it?s purpose ?
Is it a sign for those who already believe in monotheism but can use this sign to reaffirm their believe ?
Is it a sign for those who do not believe and in order to try to make these people believe, this sign was hidden and discovered until the time was right ?
Why need this sign at all ? Did Prophet Muhammed use this or a similar sign to convince his followers ? What signs did he use......or did he just lead by example ?
I am not anti-19. Indeed on the contrary it's how i discovered Quran-alone on the submission.org website. So maybe this sign can be used to promote true islam or at least Quran alone for some people??
There is one contradiction I have noted and I?m not sure if this has been discussed on this thread or on another and that is on the submission.org site and indeed in one of RK?s addendums, it is claimed the number of times of contact prayers is 5 (http//www.submission.org/salat19.html ) and 19 is used to prove this. However, there are many on this forum who believe the quran only specifies ?salat? as occurring 2 or 3 times in the day. So are there those who believe in 19 but reject the 5 a day contact prayer theory? -
Assalaam Alaikum Islam NAD
Actually there are 6 timings defined in the quran as 'Sunnah' (i.e. Sunnah of Allah)
? Establish SALAH / PRAYER by the sun's decline (Zuhar, Asar) to the darkening of the night (Maghrib, Esha) and the reading of the dawn, (Fajr) surely the reading of the dawn is witnessed.
Aqimi alssalata lidulooki alshshamsi ila ghasaqi allayli waqurana alfajri inna qurana alfajri kana mashhoodan
? And so be vigilant / Tahajjud from the night, an additional for you, so it may be THAT YOUR LORD WILL RAISE YOU TO A STANDING POSITION OF PRAISE.
Wamina allayli fa tahajjad bihi nafil atanlaka AAasa an yabAAathaka rabbuka maqaman mahmoodan
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Peace everyone,
I would like to thank everyone who attended the live debate earlier today. I think that both Edip and I would be interested in hearing your feedback in terms of the following
- How we can improve the process and the set up the next time around.
- If anyone changed their mind or leaning as a result of the debate.
Peace,
Ayman
I would like to thank Ayman for his participation and expressing the views of a skeptic with a cool temper. Inshallah, we will meet at the same room Islamic Reform at Paltalk again. If we have enough volunteers then we can keep it open most of the time.
Peace,
Edipnope
These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord but those who deny for them will be cut out a garment of Fire over their heads will be poured out boiling water. (19) With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins. (24-20)
Disputing is not Fun brickwall
One of you will have a garment of Fire... yes
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^ I don't think that is the kind of "dispute" being spoken of...
Peace;
Yes IT IS. Please read the following commendments and tell me what do you think about disputing among Submitters.
( ( ( ( ( ( (
O ye who believe! fear Allah as He should be feared, and die not except in a state of Islam. (102)
And hold fast, all together by the rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make his signs clear to you that ye may be guided. (103)
Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong; they are the ones to attain felicity. (104)
Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear signs; for them is a dreadful penalty. (105)
On the Day when some faces will be white, and some faces will be black; to those whose faces will be black, (will be said) "Did ye reject faith after accepting it? Taste then the penalty for rejecting faith. (106)
But those whose faces will be whitethey will be in Allah's mercy; therein to dwell (forever). (107)
These are the Signs of Allah We rehearse them to thee in Truth and Allah means no injustice to any of His creatures. (3-10 -
Ironically, if we are in the middle of such a dispute and all parties are equally condemned, then you have just jumped into its middle and you too also are a party, in fact, a party with the greatest sword you have condemned not one group, but two groups. You are now disputing against both groups and condemning them to hell, ironically for merely debating on a controversial issue!
Peace,
Edip -
Ironically, if we are in the middle of such a dispute and all parties are equally condemned, then you have just jumped into its middle and you too also are a party, in fact, a party with the greatest sword you have condemned not one group, but two groups. You are now disputing against both groups and condemning them to hell, ironically for merely debating on a controversial issue!
Peace,
EdipPeace all;
It is not me who is condeming disputes in religions between submitters, but God is in 24-20 and 3-100 to 108 and may other verses.
When you dispute, you are underestimating God when He said that this Quran is a straight forward and easy to be understood. When belivers read God's words, they should say We Listened ad we Obey; Thus, Did you and Ayman heared that Dispute is not Good? Are you willing to Obey and stop your dispute?
You know my position in this dispute a) Code 19 is a sign of God; b) 9-128 and 9-129 are Quaraic verses.Peace
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^ I guess you share a different vision of "disputes" ... in that case, lakum deenukum.
Peace all,
Maxq, what do you vision from 24-20 and 3-100 to 108? Maybe you can correct my vision so we don't have to differ (dispute), and as a result, each would have a different deen, as you said above.
May God lead all of us to his Straight Path so we wouldn't differ.
Salam -
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What I understand by your earlier posts is that you seem to believe in everyone holding (or submitting to) the SAME opinion... If I am incorrect, then fine; I take my words back. But if I am accurate in describing your stance, then I beg to differ.
Peace all,
Do we have the right to choose our own opinion in Religion or not? Are we entitled to have our own opinion?
It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, to have any option about their decision if anyone disobeys Allah and His Messenger he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (33-36)
when believer dispute in religion, they will have to use the Quran to Judge their dispute. And what ever the Quran says, they have to accept it.
Now, did God make his religion, in the Book, easy to be understood by every one, so there would be no room to differ or room for misguidence?
the answer is in 54-17, 22, 32, 40, and 44-58.What do you think, do I still have a wrong understanding (opinion)?
Peace -
Disputing is different from debating.
Here you have have two opposing views, one saying there is a mathematical code in the Quran and the other denying it.
I think what the verses you mention are saying is that if such an issue is taken, and instead of a meaningful discussion, the parties try to deface or be derogatory towards each other, or provoke towards having a fight, then yes that is what one must abstain from.
Regards
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I think what the verses you mention are saying is that if such an issue is taken, and instead of a meaningful discussion, the parties try to deface or be derogatory towards each other, or provoke towards having a fight, then yes that is what one must abstain from.
Regards
Peace all
Brother Maxq, please forgive me for asking these questions are you saying
that the debate between Shia, Suna, and True submitter (Quran followers) is Okay if they do not fight? are you saying that peacful debate that does not lead to fight is okay, even if it leads to dividing Moslems to sects?Please can you clairfy?
Salam -
Peace all, there is no argument nor is there any challenges regarding this matter; how I feel about it, if Rashad was here right now I will stomp his face in and put the knife to him my self. He has mislead mountin loads of you, except the faithful. The truth has come and falshood has perished. Falshood is always bound to perish.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597255.msg181595#msg181595 Check it out.
I am turing to my Lord, I do not like that which disapper.
I invite you to God in full disclousre me and whoever follows me. And glory be to God. And I am not of those who set up partners.
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the debate between Shia, Suna, and True submitter (Quran followers) is Okay if they do not fight? are you saying that peacful debate that does not lead to fight is okay, even if it leads to dividing Moslems to sects?
YES IT IS OK FROM WHAT I HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND ... Wa Alaikum Salam.
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Salam Edip, all
I could not resist commenting on this linguistic error that lead to a translation error
This is what I read in the link
7435 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).
7436 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).
the translation is verily (to those who like to translate inna) It is one of the kubar (plural of the feminine adjective kubra biggest).
"It" is feminine. It clearly points back to "sagar hell", already mentioned in verse 26, and then again in verse 42. The other "biggest" are the different hells (and are all feminine nouns). I cannot find another word for "number" that is feminine. Moreover, the theme is not the (ninteen that are over saqar) but saqar itself.
salam, as you i cannot resist as well,
7435 is not talking about the number it is talking about the miracle that is hidden,and in arabic the mo3jiza(miracle )is feminine, thats why it says INNAHA in other words its one of the bigger miracles.
7430 says 3ALAYHA tis3ata 3ashar
so in other words we can say INNAHA LI2A7DA LKUBAR 3ALAYHA TIS3ATA 3ASHAR, these are 2 verses in different spots of the chapter but go together.so i beleive that "the miracle" is the code 19 that is imbedded in the quran
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Peace Anna,
7435 is not talking about the number it is talking about the miracle that is hidden,and in arabic the mo3jiza(miracle )is feminine, thats why it says INNAHA in other words its one of the bigger miracles.
There is a slight problem. The word "mo3jiza" doesn't occur in Chapter 74. In fact, it NEVER occurs in the entire great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace all, there is no argument nor is there any challenges regarding this matter; how I feel about it, if Rashad was here right now I will stomp his face in and put the knife to him my self. He has mislead mountin loads of you, except the faithful.
Peace all,
Anthony, Believers Obey God's Laws; one very important Law isThose who invoke not, with Allah, any other god, nor slay such life as Allah has made sacred, except by the Truth (by the True Laws of God), not commit fornication and any that does this (not only) meets punishment (25-6
And the true laws of Killing are
1- Self Defense
2-Eye for an EyeThus, you have no Quranic right to Kill any human soul except by these two laws. Therefore, please let us not make Saten make us say and do things aginest God's Laws if we truly Submitters.
YES IT IS OK FROM WHAT I HAVE COME TO UNDERSTAND ... Wa Alaikum Salam.
Maxq; according to God's Words, if we become Sects, we are Moshrikeen. And the Sin of Shirk is the oly Sin that God promised that He will not forgive. Thus, it is not OK to dispute and become Sects, according to God.
Turn ye back in repentance to Him, and fear Him establish regular prayers and be not ye among those who are Moshrikeen, (31) Those who split up their Religion, and become Sects each party rejoicing in that which is with itself! (30-32)
Can you note that in any dispute in Religion, each party is rejoicing in thier opinion.
Peace
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Peace Anna,
There is a slight problem. The word "mo3jiza" doesn't occur in Chapter 74. In fact, it NEVER occurs in the entire great reading.
Peace,
Ayman
salam
i never said it did, please read the post again.7435 This (MIRACLE) is one of the GREATEST (KUBAR).
this is the proper translation7430 (On it) nineteen this is the literal translation from arabic to english of that aya, but in quran it doesnt mean literally over it or on it, that aya is saying "3alayha" in other words the stamp of that miracle in 7435, which is the code 19.