Got som important Questions about Adultery?
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Salam Al Araf,
Allah does not say "zina encompasses all fasiha including prostitution" That is your invention.
Allah says in Al Israa 1732 And do not go near prostitution it is shameful and an evil way.
Wala taqraboo alzzina innahu kana fahishatan wasaa sabeelan
1732 And do not approach/near the adultery/fornication, that it truly was/is an enormous/atrocious deed, and a bad/evil/harmful way/path.What exactly does "alzzina innahu kana fahishatan" mean other than zina that it truly is fahisha?
Is your interpretation below correct?
Alzzaniyatu waalzzanee
242 The prostitute woman and the prostitute man - flog each of them with a hundred stripesAlzzanee la yankihu illa zaniyatan
243 The prostitute man does not marry except the prostitute womanDictionary prostitute
- One who solicits and accepts payment for sex acts.
- One who sells one's abilities, talent, or name for an unworthy purpose.
Dictionary adultery
Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. -
Salam nun de plume. There is a reason why I chose the terms "prostitute" and "prostitutee"
A prostitute is a person who sells sexual services, a prostitutee is a person who buys sexual services. A prostitute can be male or female, a prostitutee can be male or female. Examples are a women who sells sexual services to a man, a man who sells sexual services to a woman, a man who sells sexual services to a man, a woman who sells sexual services to a woman. All these types of people are prohibited in nikah to a momin.
For example there is a man who has been with a prostitute, he is forbidden in nikah to a momin; there is a woman who has been a prostitute, she is forbidden in nikah to a momin; I am sure you can work out from this who is forbidden in nikah to a momin. This rule also provides the following permissions If a woman has been a prostitute, she is permitted to have a nikah with a man who has been with a prostitute; if a man has been to prostitutes, he can have a nikah with a prostitute; I am sure you can work out the rest of this rule as well.
We have no disagreement when it comes to the definition of prostitute. I need to emphasize the word prostitutee, which is the person who purchases the services of a prostitute. Zanee = prostitute, Zaniya = prostitutee, zina = prostitution.
I am aware of the dictionary definition you have provided with regard to adultery. Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a partner other than the lawful spouse. Notice the use of the term "lawful spouse" In the western systems, having more than one wife is "unlawful" and "bigamy" and therefore a momin with a second wife is guilty of "bigamy" under the western system. Under the Islamic system his second wife is lawful and not fasiha.
This is why I am averse to using western terminologies when discussing Quran. Western concepts of adultery and fornication are alien concepts, their definitions are in severe conflict with the Quran. What Allah says in the Quran is lawful under the hudood, these western systems claim is illegal. As a momin I reject the imposition of western concepts, and take my guidance as to what is legal from the Quran.
Allah is the lawgiver.
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Salam Al Araf.
There is a reason why I chose the terms "prostitute" and "prostitutee"
Yes I know exactly ? definition of zina as adultery/fornication contradicts hadith on stoning.
By new definition of prostitute those having extra marital flings and singles pre-marital sex are left alone while hookers and their johns are lashed in public 100 times.
Or ? select ?certain? hadith which say to stone married people and lash singles.
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Proposing an alternative understanding
Spirit of the laws regulating sexuality avoiding associated pain and trouble that might come as a result. Anything that goes beyond is a non-Quranic restriction on liberties, whatever our own moral view on them.
'afeef in Arabic can be translated not just as "chaste", but also as "clean" => Open to interpretation.
Zina is adultery, so it doesn't cover extra-marital sex. Many include fornication, but that's an addition. Extra-marital sex is not covered by the Quran; in support of this interpretation, see traditions which allowed nikah urfi/misya/mut'a, which if we don't split hairs, are equivalent to any normal non matrimonial relationship in the Western world today. Thus extra-marital sex is not forbidden.
Adultery Are consenting swingers adulterers? They probably don't consider themselves to be so, and they're not doing any harm to anyone. The law doesn't apply to them (remember, the spirit of the law, your reason is there to understand it). Same for pornstars.
The lashes and the four witnesses now lashes are serious business. Hence the need for four witnesses. Assuming all conditions are met for the punishment, the spirit of the law primes (again), and to understand it and apply it, we need the context lashes might have been appropriate then, they're not now, punishment of an equivalent value (e.g. prison, fine, whatever is deemed both equivalent and acceptable lest you want to turn any civilized person away from the way of God). Mind you, words themselves can be redefined, especially in a legal context. E.g. when the French civil code speaks of the king or chariot, it means the president or a car. The same can be done for lashes.
Surely sex between unmarried people is covered by the 'Guard your privates, except from your wives' injunction, hence unislamic. In the case of 'consenting swingers', if we define sex as a contract, by 'consenting' in this fashion they are making the contract void, hence divorcing, and falling back into first category, failing to guard their privates from people to whom they are not married.
In the case of lashes, I've never understood why people think punishment by locking criminals in a box for 5, 10 or 20 years is more humane than beating them. But in principle I agree with you, punishments can be taken as a guideline and adapted to fit the circumstances, that's what justice is about.
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salam liquiddharma. i have issues with what youre doing. the correct premise is allah makes no mistakes, knows what he is saying, and does not need a fallible human to improve on his word, because his word is perfect.
you claim "surely sex between unmarried people is covered by.." i looked at the verse fragment you provided "guard your privates, except from your wives" do you see the expression sex between unmarried people in guard your privates? the answer is no it is not in there. i see what you are trying to do. dont do it. this is called innovation. it is an evil way. you are not a person allah has appointed to makes changes, improvements, or additions. what you have done is to make an association of yourself and an addition to the quran.
do you have a personal need to condemn sex between unmarried people? if that is so, that is your personal opinion, and you have a right to that opinion. however, when you find no quran verse that says "sex between unmarried people is prohibited" you must have the intellectual honesty to admit there is no prohibition. to claim "guard your privates" means this is just plain dishonest.
i know your next move is going to be, well then why does allah say guard your privates except for before your wife. the reason you will persist is because you are thinking in english, using western notions of marriage and wife. those notions dont exist in the quran. this is where you are being thrown off track.
the words used in the quran are zawj and nikah. the term zawj means pair, it does not mean wife. the term nikah does not mean marriage, it is another type of relationship, the nearest definition is it is a conservatorship/marriage hybrid. let me propose to you the following assume a person has a sexual relationship with a zawj who is not their wife. is this permitted? i am sure it is permitted. however you will claim zawj is the same as wife in order to try and create a prohibition.
the issue of guard your privates, has nothing whatsoever to do with sexual relationships. it has to do with modesty. allah asks us to cover our privates. a person could be a nudist, not have sex, and violate this command.
please be very careful of any whispering in your ears. when allah does not say sex between unmarried persons is prohibited, it then becomes association and addition to make this claim. association and addition are condemned in the quran.
allah is the lawmaker.
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I understand why you criticise my interpretation, as it conflicts with the traditionalist mindset of women as property which is enforced by the mindless subservience of poorly educated laymen to backward thinking imams. However I do passionately believe that educated individuals analysing scriptures themselves in the light of their own understanding of the world is not 'innovation', but the way the faith pioneered by the Prophet was always meant to be practised before the tyrannical stranglehold of clerical authorities established themselves and decreed death for all those who opposed them.
Guard your privates obviously includes sexual chastity. It may also mean nudity, I accept. But I think you're badly off the tracks if you think you're going to make the world a better place by trying to use Islam to defend some primitive forms of concubinage. The overwhelming message of the Quran is that men and women are equal partners, two halves of a whole. It's completely mistaken to think that men using women for sex without having the respect to marry them is divinely ordained. Just because something was practised at the time does not mean it is for all time.
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salam liquiddharma. when the quran talks about inheriting women, your posts come off as very alien to the concepts established in the quran.
make up your mind. either you want to ape western norms, and join them in their hatred of everything islamic, and quote from their philosophies, including one liners you think are a substitute for intelligent debate. or you submit to the will of allah not matter how distasteful it is to you.
this rubbish of trying to innovate, make additions, reject, dispute, has no place in al islam. if you have problems with al islam then admit you cannot accept al islam and go find something else that meets your needs. muslims loyal to allah dont need those who try and turn them away from allah in their house.
allah is the lawgiver.
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attack is the best defense...isn't that so al araf ? do you believe that you are practicing jihad or something ?
such a pity, sometimes you do say things that make sense, but even then you do so in an aggressive manner.i think i quoted that before , no time to look for the exact verse invite to islam in the best possible manner speaking gently ....
and how about letting allah chose his own ?
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Al Araf, yes, submission to God leaves no room for disputing the will of God. Luckily, God has never told me to do anything unjust, so I don't have to worry about there being a conflict between God's will and natural justice, the way ancient philosophers did. However, human beings do many unjust things, and when they do, it goes against the principles of Islam, regardless of whether or not they try and justify it by the Quran, or Hadiths, or any other source.
Regarding the 'inheritance of women' - of course the Quran does not 'establish' this - it was already established by Ancient Arab societies, they loved slavery and treating women as slaves. The Quran merely talks in their language, and in 419 it forbids the practice of taking people (specifically women) against their will.
So in fact, by ignoring the meaning of the verse and pretending that the Quran 'establishes' the 'inheritance of women' - when it does the opposite, you are going 180 degrees against the Quran. You are completely defying everything the Prophet recited and taught. That is the innovation Islam condemns, twisting the righteousness and justice of the Quran to support evil.
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Al Arf , salam.
Sincerely defending polygyne (in another thread), confused but advocating F...ing arouund with other than the legal/contracted mates ???
hmm Gives impression of someone who wants to keep both hands and mouth full, eat and yet wanna avail plenty out there in the bush too. ;D come on brother dont be that greedy >D
peace
siki -
salam liquidharma. assuming you dont take the words of allah as a joke and a mockery, where you find compelled to insert either a picture or text mocking the serious discourse of the quran. you claim.
The Quran merely talks in their language, and in 419 it forbids the practice of taking people (specifically women) against their will.
419 states
the term tartuwa comes from the root warat, which means inherit. which means the prohibition is on "inheriting women" against her will. not "taking people (specifically) women against their will, as you falsely claim" the word for prohibited in arabic is harramun, and it does not exist in that verse. therefore your claim "it forbids" is false.
i suspect arabic is not your mother tongue, and that english is your mother tongue. apparently you rely on alleged translations to draw your conclusions. compounding the problem is you lack the critical intellectual skills neccesary to evaluate the meaning of a verse. this is obvious from the fact your conclusions are not consistent with the actual language of the verse.
an example of your shortcomings in intellectual capacity is similar to the following if someone tells you. the grass on the ground is green, your weak intellect has you concluding the ground is green, instead of the correct conclusion which is the grass is green. i have seen this issue with your posts in other threads as well. please come to the debate with an adequate intellect.
allah is the truth.
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salam siki. this post of yours is disrespectful and childish, unworthy of you.
Sincerely defending polygyne (in another thread), but advocating F...ing arouund with other than the legal/contracted mates Gives impression of someone who wants to keep both hands and mouth full, and yet wanna avail plenty out there in the bush too. come on brother dont be that greedy
i defend what allah has established, polygyny, and do not add to the quran. if you want to add to the quran by creating your rules, then you answer to allah on the day of judgment for your actions. i will not lie or mislead people by making false claims.
what impression you or others get from the rules established by allah, is really not my concern. if you wish to insult or demean the rules of allah by calling them greedy, you can answer to allah for your actions there too. you personal opinions of the rules established by allah, have no place in a discussion of the quran.
if your problem is, that you cannot find a verse that prohibits extra marital sex in certain instances, i suggest you change your views to become more quranic, rather than make rude remarks.
allah is the lawgiver.
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AlArf salam
There is absolutely no doubt regarding polygyne in the book, It is permitted , and i have the same opinion as what you have.
But permitting extra marital sex, Are you serious?Ok no more jokes, lets tackle it seriously. How did you draw that conclusion?
siki
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salam siki. i searched the quran for the instances of the word haram and harraumun. i find no instance where it is used in connection with extra marital sex. knowing that the term zani wa zanit, and zina, relate to prostitution, i understand that this is what allah wishes, so it is my wish too, that prostitution is an abhorrent practice.
on the other hand, knowing that polygyny is permitted, a momin would need to be permitted contact with women he is not married to, if he is to seek out a relationship with them, this is quite reasonable. what the quran does prohibit is secret relationships, however open relationships are permitted. therefore if a momin has an open relationship with a mominah, i find no condemnation of their relationship in the quran.
having said that, we are aware that the wives of muhammad, were specifically warned in the quran, to conform their behavoir, to obey their husband, muhammad. it does not surprise me to find many women today in open rebellion to the word of allah. i believe allah is aware that women have unique needs, have great difficulty with submitting in humility, and for this reason allah has imposed on them the headovering rule, the primacy of husband rule, and provided examples of rebellious women and his caution to them.
the issue of extra marital sex appears to have originated in victorian england, and was transmitted to the colonies of england. at different times england governed parts of arabia, and attempted to impose their victorian philosophies on arabia. victorian philosophies were so ridiculous they caused mental breakdowns in people and one can argue that the practice of psychology was nurtured by the large number of people made mentall ill by victorian philosophies. to me victorian and western philosophies and opinions are completely rejected as complete paganism. i find there is a correlation between western influence, whether a person resides in a western country, or is a convert from a western religion, and their opposition to islamic concepts such as polgyny, and the primacy of the husband in marriage.
allah is the truth.
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salam AlArf,
lets leave aside polygyne, It is permitted ,
GOd does not prohibit contact between a Momin and a Momina , provided they have something righteous to discuss, or may be they wana get to know eack other better before a proposal is initiated to ensure compatability. But i think what you are proposing is checking out sexual compatibility, or may be , body chemistry ? weather it works or not? Are you saying that?
please clarify before we proceed further.
peacesiki
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Al Arf, salam
I do not agree with your understanding of Zani and Zania to be prostitutes, But i have my mind open for any new understanding, and i am afraid uptill now what ever evidence you have provided is insufficient to prove your understanding.
what do you understand of 24-33
Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
siki
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salam liquidharma. assuming you dont take the words of allah as a joke and a mockery, where you find compelled to insert either a picture or text mocking the serious discourse of the quran. you claim.
Araf, I think you make the mistake of assuming that God is an arab. That would be why you revere medieval arab culture and presume exploitative customs are divinely ordained.
Of course, Allah has no race and the abusive customs of primitive societies are not divinely ordained. So stop trying to rationalise medieval male promiscuity.
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salam liquiddharma. when you are deprived of your tools of mockery, pictures, what emerges is your revulsion for what is divinely ordained.
think you make the mistake of assuming that God is an arab
the belief that god could appear in human form is christian blasphemy, transubstantiation. you mouth this concept because you believe it to be possible. i, however, being muslim, utterly reject such nonsense. there is nothing wrong with being an arab.
you revere medieval arab culture
the revulsion of everything medieval is a christian attitude, indeed medieval christianity was a revolting time in christianity. however, medieval islam was no different to modern islam, there is no such difference in islam. your attempt to foist your christian prejudices on islam is projection and exposes your thoughts.
presume exploitative customs are divinely ordained
submission to the will of allah, to you, would read "allah has imposed an exploitative custom on you" i suppose having to pray, giving charity, going on pilgrimage are all divinely ordained exploitative customs.
in summation, you are polluted with medieval christian concepts of islam.
allah is the truth.
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salam siki. we are in agreement that polygyny is lawful in islam.
or may be they wana get to know eack other better before a proposal is initiated to ensure compatability. But i think what you are proposing is checking out sexual compatibility, or may be , body chemistry ? weather it works or not? Are you saying that?
brother, i have looked for an answer to this question myself. i must report to you the truth, the truth is allah has not given an answer to your question in the quran.
if i leave you here, you will think maybe he knows something that he is not saying, and you would be correct. allah has given us the torah, injeel, and the quran. in these books, allah has stated the laws for mankind. if allahs leaves something out of his laws, allah is the most wise, then allah does not wish it to be regulated. because allah has not included in his laws, any restriction on "checking out sexual compatibility" or "body chemistry" or "whether it works or not" then it is the wish of allah not to regulate such things, and we who are on the path of allah, should do the same and not seek to regulate these things. i hope this answers your question. may allah protect me from error.
allah is the lawgiver.