hadith
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peace,
i know that this subject has been discussed many times, and i don't know if this question
has been asked before, but i think it's very important to ask anyway ....
I know that u all tend to reject hadiths (which is really based on the BOOK), and my question is
Maybe there r lot of ridiculous and surely unauthentic hadiths which contradicts the koran,
but don't u think that some of them could be authentic, especially those that doesn't contradict
the koran, like those which goal is to complete the koran and explain it, and to make the Islamic laws
(Shari'a) more detailed ? ???
And we should also consider that even if GOD tell us not to believe in a speech other than the BOOK,
but still, believing in such hadiths -the authentic ones- (which i personnally find crucial for the islamic society) as secondary source besides the book of GOD, might be permitted in condition that it remains a secondary one after the koran.
Waiting for ur replies ...
Peace -
peace moslem,
Like all heresay, Hadith are a mix of truth and falsehood. Sure there will be some right.... problem is, how do we tell which ones?
We need a supreme standard to compare them to, e.g. The Quran.
Just like Jesus' Hadith, New Testament in The Bible, some of it is right, some of it is wrong. Only way we know, is to use a supreme standard, The Quran.
So, if all we are doing is finding Hadith that do not contradict The Quran, then do we really need Hadith? Not according to The Quran
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htm
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peace moslem,
peace brother,
So, if all we are doing is finding Hadith that do not contradict The Quran, then do we really need Hadith?
What I am seaking exactly is the best behavior we can ever do.
U know very well that 99% of the muslims believe in hadiths and consider it crucial
besides the koran, and the koran mentions that there must be unity and dialogue between
all muslims. So what would be a good behavior for Koran Aloners-who consider the koran as a supreme
constitution and standard as u mentioned- in order to accomplish such a dialogue.
Do u think that the right thing to do is to go out there and keep saying that hadiths should all be rejected
and be stubborn on the idea that the 99% r wrong and we r right ? And u know very well that we all could
be wrong !!! I mean I think u'r wise enough to have such an idea ...
Do we need hadiths ? I don't care about the answer ... and I think it's not that important.
Is it wrong to search hadiths that does not contradict the koran, and to accept it as a secondary source,
and does the koran really forbid that ? I think the answer here would be a "no".
U do believe in the Book and u know very well that unity is an order to the muslim society ...
And here I'm fully sure that u will see the good results of the behavior I'm talking about, to accomplish
the order of GOD.Not according to The Quran
http//www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htmThx for the article .. it's well said.
But I still insist on the fact that even if the koran is clear, complete, detailed and explained,
accepting some wise hadiths (there r plenty of them) which would seem to come really from the
messenger of GOD is not that bad -voire- could be the best behavior of a submitter in our time and
in the current conditions of the muslim society.Peace
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99% of Muslims do NOT believe in hadiths!
99% of the Muslims on the planet recite and refer from the Quran!
75+ Million Muslims in Eastern Europe...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million African Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million Asian Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million Pakistani Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million Indian Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
The 'minority' of Muslims are those who follow and refer to hadiths!
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The point Moslem is as a secondary source of what? If you mean of law it can't be. You may impose on yourself any hatdith you deem adequate, but you cannot impose it on any one else. You would be imposing something that the Qur'an doesn't impose. Don't you find that you would be imposing a lot? On whose authority?
That is, as I can see it, the whole point. As religious literrature, nobody is forbidding it and everybody is free to be inspired by as many hadith as one feels sincere about. The trouble comes when you attempt to deduce from them the laws that "God wanted to impose on humanity". What do you say yourself?
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peace brother,
What I am seaking exactly is the best behavior we can ever do.
U know very well that 99% of the muslims believe in hadiths and consider it crucial
besides the koran, and the koran mentions that there must be unity and dialogue between
all muslims. So what would be a good behavior for Koran Aloners-who consider the koran as a supreme
constitution and standard as u mentioned- in order to accomplish such a dialogue.
Do u think that the right thing to do is to go out there and keep saying that hadiths should all be rejected
and be stubborn on the idea that the 99% r wrong and we r right ? And u know very well that we all could
be wrong !!! I mean I think u'r wise enough to have such an idea ...
Do we need hadiths ? I don't care about the answer ... and I think it's not that important.
Is it wrong to search hadiths that does not contradict the koran, and to accept it as a secondary source,
and does the koran really forbid that ? I think the answer here would be a "no".
U do believe in the Book and u know very well that unity is an order to the muslim society ...
And here I'm fully sure that u will see the good results of the behavior I'm talking about, to accomplish
the order of GOD.
Thx for the article .. it's well said.
But I still insist on the fact that even if the koran is clear, complete, detailed and explained,
accepting some wise hadiths (there r plenty of them) which would seem to come really from the
messenger of GOD is not that bad -voire- could be the best behavior of a submitter in our time and
in the current conditions of the muslim society.Peace
Peace
The reader of the Quran should be well aware that God sanctions the Quran to be the sole source of religious law testing the authenticity of any hadith is not for the purpose of approving the hadith as a source of religious law.
Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 456
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
This scripture (Quran) has been revealed to you - you shall not harbor doubt about it in your heart - that you may warn with it, and to provide a reminder for the believers. You shall all follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; do not follow any idols besides Him. Rarely do you take heed." 72-3
if you still looking for hadith then here is one.
Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
Even if you accept some hadith you won?t be able to please them they will still consider you a murtad. then why waste your energy.
peace
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99% of Muslims do NOT believe in hadiths!
99% of the Muslims on the planet recite and refer from the Quran!
75+ Million Muslims in Eastern Europe...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million African Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million Asian Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million Pakistani Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
120+ million Indian Muslims ...they dont recite from hadith
The 'minority' of Muslims are those who follow and refer to hadiths!
hypno
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Muslim peace
Do you see what happens here. Quran being a single source of knowledge , and yet you find multiple individual perceptions. But the light at end of tunnel is," if we stick to it , truth can/will be ultimately reached , because HE is the teacher"
Now, going out side, will be opening a big pandoras box, and truth may never be found and hence ultimately lost.
moreover, even if we have some authentic ones going along the spirit of Quran, that freezes God's final revelation (which is suppose to be working for every situation and for all times to come) back into Mohammad's time.
siki
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hypno
yes
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Peace to All
The truth is truth... And we should proclaim the truth... We should not care about the majority... However dialogue and approach is important, but hindering the truth and trying to deceive people is not the way to go... When the messenger was asked to proclaim the truth... He did it loud and clear... He did not care that he was surrounded by Idolators who were worshipping stoned and statues days and nights.... When truth has come, there is no place for falsehood...
I was also thinking about the case of good hadiths and practices that are found in these books and how to tackle them... but finally I decided to refer only to the Quran from now on and in the future insha Allah... I ask God for his unlimited mercy and guidance...
The problem with the hadiths is that we really cannot filter them... And as guys pointed out in above posts, whats the use of cross checking with the Quran... Because at the end, we are still following the Quran... So why not just take the Quran straight as it was meant since it was revealed to the messenger...
Regards
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The point Moslem is as a secondary source of what? If you mean of law it can't be. You may impose on yourself any hatdith you deem adequate, but you cannot impose it on any one else. You would be imposing something that the Qur'an doesn't impose. Don't you find that you would be imposing a lot? On whose authority?
That is, as I can see it, the whole point. As religious literrature, nobody is forbidding it and everybody is free to be inspired by as many hadith as one feels sincere about. The trouble comes when you attempt to deduce from them the laws that "God wanted to impose on humanity". What do you say yourself?
Peace brother,
I did talk in the first post about the hadiths that is aimed to detail the islamic laws , not to make it.
Nobody can ever argue with that, because simply u can't rely on uncertain speechs.
And what I meant in hadiths by secondary source is definitly not source of law but source of knowledge that can help us
understand the koran. I don't think that u would reject the idea that any authentic speech of the prophet would clarify the koran and the
laws -who better than the messenger can explain his message- and what I was telling is that searching for hadiths that seem to be
usefull, not contradicting the koran -voire making it more comprehensible- might not only be permitted, but also crucial so we can
understand the context in which the koran was revealed and what was every verse aimed for, and that is a very important point.Peace again
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Peace brother,
I did talk in the first post about the hadiths that is aimed to detail the islamic laws , not to make it.
Nobody can ever argue with that, because simply u can't rely on uncertain speechs.
And what I meant in hadiths by secondary source is definitly not source of law but source of knowledge that can help us
understand the koran. I don't think that u would reject the idea that any authentic speech of the prophet would clarify the koran and the
laws -who better than the messenger can explain his message- and what I was telling is that searching for hadiths that seem to be
usefull, not contradicting the koran -voire making it more comprehensible- might not only be permitted, but also crucial so we can
understand the context in which the koran was revealed and what was every verse aimed for, and that is a very important point.Peace again
Peace
Well, do you think that 7000 hadiths considered as Sahih by Bukhari can explain the 6000 verses of the Quran? Not to forget that usually there are dozens of hadith talking about a single issue....
Or you think that part of the Quran is clear and dont need any explanation.... While the others need hadiths... Well if that was the case... Allah would have definitely give us a clue to refer to hadith books in the Quran... But we all know that its not this way and will never be...
But as long as you do not take these hadiths as law or divine inspiration, then you can take, add or remove to it... Its totally on your side... Do whatever you like with it but never say/think/believe its from God...
Regards
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Peace
Peace brother,
The reader of the Quran should be well aware that God sanctions the Quran to be the sole source of religious law testing the authenticity of any hadith is not for the purpose of approving the hadith as a source of religious law.
Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6114
These are God's revelations that We recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than God and His revelations do they believe?" 456
"Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 611
This scripture (Quran) has been revealed to you - you shall not harbor doubt about it in your heart - that you may warn with it, and to provide a reminder for the believers. You shall all follow what is revealed to you from your Lord; do not follow any idols besides Him. Rarely do you take heed." 72-3
if you still looking for hadith then here is one.I did talk in the first post about the hadiths that is aimed to detail the islamic laws , not to make it.
Nobody can ever argue with that, because simply u can't rely on uncertain speechs.
And what I meant in hadiths by secondary source is definitly not source of law but source of knowledge that can help us
understand the koran. I don't think that u would reject the idea that any authentic speech of the prophet would clarify the koran and the
laws -who better than the messenger can explain his message- and what I was telling is that searching for hadiths that seem to be
usefull, not contradicting the koran -voire making it more comprehensible- might not only be permitted, but also crucial so we can
understand the context in which the koran was revealed and what was every verse aimed for, and that is a very important point.Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....also Sahih Moslim )
Concerning the hadith I am totally "d'accord" with u. The prophet didn't want the koran to be distorted by possible mixing with
written hadiths. U should note that he still might have wanted his words to be understood -to clarify his message-, not only by his
contemporaries but also by other generations through oral handings, and definitly not written ones so i wouldn't be mixed with the koran -like it happened to the bible-
otherwise he wouldn't have made any of his speechs.
But let's go back to nowadays .. the problem is already here. Although the hadiths was not written until the koran was gathered in one book,
the problem that has rised is not what the prophet feared -the mixing between hadiths and koran- but it's forging hadiths that have nothing to do
with the prophet. That is our problem.Even if you accept some hadith you won?t be able to please them they will still consider you a murtad. then why waste your energy.
At least u would have done what u can, if they don't accept it it's their problem and they will be judged for that.
But also if u don't do it urself, u might be responsible too, u should consider that ...
16125 Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in that which is better. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones. -
Muslim peace
Do you see what happens here. Quran being a single source of knowledge , and yet you find multiple individual perceptions. But the light at end of tunnel is," if we stick to it , truth can/will be ultimately reached , because HE is the teacher"
Now, going out side, will be opening a big pandoras box, and truth may never be found and hence ultimately lost.
moreover, even if we have some authentic ones going along the spirit of Quran, that freezes God's final revelation (which is suppose to be working for every situation and for all times to come) back into Mohammad's time.
siki
Peace brother,
let me ask u some questions
Is taking some authentic ones going along the spirit of koran a sin ?
Will GOD stop his mercy on u if u say "mohamad might have said this speech" ?
Do u actually believe it's a shirk to recognize the wisdom of the messenger of GOD and to profit from it ?
Do u think that recognizing some authentic hadiths is not important to u, even if there is a 1% chance that by
doing that u might come to accomplish 1% of unity with others muslim which might be a cornerstone to accomplish
whole of it ??
If ur answers r "no", u will know then why i started this thread in the first place .....Peace again
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Peace to All
The problem with the hadiths is that we really cannot filter them... And as guys pointed out in above posts, whats the use of cross checking with the Quran... Because at the end, we are still following the Quran... So why not just take the Quran straight as it was meant since it was revealed to the messenger...
Regards
Peace brother,
What's the use ?!!!!
Listen I'm gonna argue about the use of it ...
U don't wanna follow it u'r free to do that, and I don't blame u, and I'm not gonna judge u ...
But please answer the questions in my previous post, and then regardless if it is usefull or not
tell me is it worth or not ??
is it worth to accomplish unity between submitters and why not all humans,
or u have come to hate all the others in a way that u might treat them of idolators
-lot of people here do that- and that unity means nothing to u ?Peace
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Peace again,
Peace
Well, do you think that 7000 hadiths considered as Sahih by Bukhari can explain the 6000 verses of the Quran? Not to forget that usually there are dozens of hadith talking about a single issue....I said nothing about explaining 6000 verses of the koran ....
And it's natural to have many hadiths about the same issue, the prophet might have spoken about it many times...
If those hadiths seem to be logical, and authentic, u could take the richest one ....Or you think that part of the Quran is clear and dont need any explanation.... While the others need hadiths... Well if that was the case... Allah would have definitely give us a clue to refer to hadith books in the Quran... But we all know that its not this way and will never be...
I never said anything about any verse that need hadiths ... I'm saying that some hadiths might be authentic ...
The koran is detailed, but the laws r not ... so the laws might need some authentic hadiths to become more clear and detailled.But as long as you do not take these hadiths as law or divine inspiration, then you can take, add or remove to it... Its totally on your side... Do whatever you like with it but never say/think/believe its from God...
RegardsI don't think that there is one single muslim who thinks it's from GOD ...
Anyway thx for ur precious advice ...
Peace -
Peace Brother...
Concerning the hadith I am totally "d'accord" with u. The prophet didn't want the koran to be distorted by possible mixing with
written hadiths. U should note that he still might have wanted his words to be understood -to clarify his message-, not only by his
contemporaries but also by other generations through oral handings, and definitly not written ones so i wouldn't be mixed with the koran -like it happened to the bible-
otherwise he wouldn't have made any of his speechs.
But let's go back to nowadays .. the problem is already here. Although the hadiths was not written until the koran was gathered in one book,
the problem that has rised is not what the prophet feared -the mixing between hadiths and koran- but it's forging hadiths that have nothing to do
with the prophet. That is our problem.Firstly, you should ask yourself these questions... Did the messenger believed in Allah? Could he followed another way apart the way of the Quran? Could the messenger doubt the words of Allah? If you replied 'No' to all of these... then read this verse...
159
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption).
Since the prophet could not go against the Quran and totally has firm belief in Allah's words... Then definitely he would know that since Allah is taking the status of Guardian of the Quran, therefore no one would be able to alter or modify it, even his own words... So if he deemed that his speeches were necessary, then he would have them written down by separate scribes... Do you think he would have care about it to get mixed up... since Allah is protecting the Quran... Infact it is a very easy thing to do, he just needed to get 2 groups of scribes... one group should have written only the Quran, and the other groups only his teachings/saying and voila... Job is done... No mixup... Would this be difficult? Most will reply NO... Then, since the prophet did not do it, it means that it was not meant to be that way... The only Guide for mankind should be Al-Quran...
0202
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God;
This is only one among the many verses in which ALLAH says that this book is the guidance for mankind.... Will you need another guide to explain a guide?
Let's assume i give you a new Operating System to use on your computer, but since its totally new, you will not be able to use it by yourself, therefore, I give you a clear guide/tutorial which explains all the nuts and bolts in details... And i tell you that this is your guide... Will you need another guide to guide you using the guide ... Or will you use the guide straight away...
The only option is if the guide i give you is in another language, therefore you need to go and learn the language first, then read to understand the guide... Or you can get a translator to read the guide for you and translate it word by word to you... We do not need a guide to guide to to follow another guide... Its totally against the essence of the word 'GUIDE'...
Hope i have been clear enough to transmit my views to my best...
Allah knows best...
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Peace again...
So your main concern is about the 'authentic' hadith of the prophet...
May I ask you, by which standard/filter you can know that a hadith is authentic or not... What proof you have that if came out from the mouth of the prophet...?? Just because it SEEMS good to our mind/belief/faith, so we take it as authentic? Does Allah not tell you not not accept anything before verification?
1736
And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not, etc.) that of which you have no knowledge (e.g. one's saying "I have seen," while in fact he has not seen, or "I have heard," while he has not heard). Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those you will be questioned (by Allah).
Allah is clear on this, if you cannot verify it, especially when it is assumed that the messenger said it or did it... Then you should not accept... And by no means you will be able to verify and prove these claims to be true.... Some may sound good to the mind/ears but we cannot say that its from the prophet for sure...
As for your idea about 'What if the prophet did/said it'...
Well, then ask yourself, what if the prophet did NOT say/do it... Which is worth? Attributing lies to Allah and his prophet or follow the prophet through his Authentic sayings in the Quran... If you want to please the majority... then, you should consider this verse
6116
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of God. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie.
The prophet was given the responsibility to deliver the truth, he was in a community of idolators, and he was not afraid to call them idolators... So if someone is an idolator, we should tell him that he is an idolator so that he can become aware... Its not me who is calling them idolators, buts its Allah Himself... The message is hard and difficult to digest, but it will indeed make the one being accused of this to assess his position... And if he just let it go like this, then its not our duty to remind him because now its his own responsibilty...
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About the unity of muslims...
You should get out of your bubble brother.... the main cause of dissention among the muslims have always been hadiths... All these 4 madhabs, they differ regarding hadiths... Most sects have their hadiths to back up their way of doing/behaving/living... If you want to blame anyone for the sectarism in the muslim community after the prophet passed away, you need to blame the hadith and hadith followers themselves... People follow hearsay and conjecture, then start arguing after one another...
Ask yourself this question... very often it happens that you are facing something and you do not know what islam says on it... then what do you do? Do u look for the answer in Hadith or in Quran?? As for me, my family and most of my relatives and muslims here, the first thing we will do is to look for the issue in the ahadiths... What has happened is that, gradually hadith has become the primary source while the Quran is being secondary or not present at all... This is how the general muslim community is living... And we are still waiting for the Victory from Allah... There will not be Victory unless we return to the Quran....
Only the Quran will wipe all these sectarism and unite the muslims under the banner of true Al-Islam, as it was delivered by the Messenger (pbuh)...
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Ask yourself this question... very often it happens that you are facing something and you do not know what islam says on it... then what do you do? Do u look for the answer in Hadith or in Quran?? As for me, my family and most of my relatives and muslims here, the first thing we will do is to look for the issue in the ahadiths... What has happened is that, gradually hadith has become the primary source while the Quran is being secondary or not present at all... This is how the general muslim community is living... And we are still waiting for the Victory from Allah... There will not be Victory unless we return to the Quran....
Only the Quran will wipe all these sectarism and unite the muslims under the banner of true Al-Islam, as it was delivered by the Messenger (pbuh)...
salam,
you are absolutely right my friend ....... INNA QAWMI TA5ATHA LQURANA MAHJOORA
