Rakat
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Peace aw,
I already gave you the verse where "du'aa"/prayer is part if "salat"/connection
17110 Say Pray (od'oo) to God or pray (od'oo) to the Almighty. However you pray (tad'oo), for to Him are the best names. And do not be too loud in making your connection, nor too quiet; but seek a path in between.
17111 And say Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness. And glorify Him greatly.17110 makes it clear that "du'aa" to God is part of "salat"
these should be the last questions.
what does odoo mean and duaa? I dont see the word duaa in 17110. Or are they the same?
I know that call can mean pray to/call upon/ call on/ shout at/ yell / invoke/ implore/ ect....
just as salat can mean connection/ prayers/ supllication/ ect...
So you told me why salat caint be translated as prayer, so why caint odoo be translated as prayer if that is the proper word instead of call?
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Peace aw,
what does odoo mean and duaa? I dont see the word duaa in 17110. Or are they the same?
They are the same. "Od'oo" is the verb meaning "pray" and "du'aa" is the noun meaning "prayer".
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Peace all,
I was just browsing to see other opinions on as-salat and I noticed this thread so I'd like to share what I've found about the word 'raka'. First of all, according to the sunni concept of prayer being a certain number of 'raka'aat' units and a certain number of 'sajdah' units, I noticed that the reading doesn't even use these forms of these words. One surah is named as-Sajdah but that form of the word is no where in the reading. Clearly shows the fabrication of their prayer.
ALL the verses that use the verb form of 'raka'a' use it in the command form 243, 343, 2277, 7748
These verses use it in the 'faa'il' form the person doing it 243, 343, 555, 9112, 3824
These verses use it also in the 'faa'il' form but for the plural 2125, 2226, 4829
I found it interesting that in my contemporary arabic-arabic dictionary it has the usual meanings of raka'a listed, the physical aspect. However, when I was looking up 'khashi'a', meaning humbly submissive/ fearing, I found raka'a listed, so my first clue.
The main verses that caused the biggest problems about 'raka'a' being physical for me is the one about Dawud 'falling' 'bowing' and verse 7748 And when it is said to them (the mujrimun, disbelieving criminals) 'irka'a' 'bow' they don't 'bow'. Now why on earth would we tell such people to just bow? Of course the usual additions to the verse is (in prayer) but that still makes no sense, you wouldn't tell them to do the sunni prayer before they even believe. However, asking them to be HUMBLE? Certainly and I find that 'humble' fits in all of these verses. How many times does the god describe the disbelievers as 'arrogant', that we should seek refuge from arrogance? Also, from the form of the word used you see that it's a continual state to be in not just sometimes. It makes perfect sense that when a little 'arrogance' hit Dawud and he judged without hearing both sides he automatically realized what went wrong and fell humble and repenting.
Let me know if this helps the initial question about 'raka'a'. I just noticed that no one posted all of the verses so I thought that I would do so.
Umm Tariq
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Peace be upon you Umm Tariq,
Excellent logic, this is how we must approach the teachings.
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peace all,
To study the classical arabic meanings, occurrences in The Quran and grammar information of words, I strongly recommend
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
= Ra-Kaf-Ayn = bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
raka'a vb. (1)
impf. act. 7748
impv. 243, 343, 2277, 7748
pcple. act. (raki, pl. rakiun and rukka) 243, 2125, 343, 555, 9112, 2226, 3824, 4829LL, V3, p 313, 314
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Assalaam Alaikum
The 'performance' of Salat is defined in the following ayahs...
Lets start with 'Raka'...
Who seeth you standing forth (in Prayer),
Allathee yaraka heena taqoomu ('Ya' is silenced in the recitation)
And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,
Wa taqallubaka fee alssajideena
Salat.....
O you folded in garments / almuzzammilu!
Ya ayyuha al-muzzammilu
Muzzammil (Active Participle, masculine, singular, Verb Form = VIII reflexive, declarant) carry knowledge or responsibility, recite ayats, one who is behind another (in knowledge and guidance), Man wrapped in garments, one who unites
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 235 (zamala); Lanes Lexicon Part/Volume #3 page 1252-1253Stand (to Prayer) by night, but not all night,-
Qumi allayla illa qaleelan
Half of it,- or a little less,
Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.Aw zid AAalayhi wa rattili alqurana tarteelan
Rattili recite disinctfully and thoughtfully, slow and gracefully
Tarteel denotes putting something together distinctly in a well arranged mannerSoon shall We send down to you a weighty Message.
Inna sanulqee AAalayka qawlan thaqeelan
qawlan (tanwin-fatha, plural, feminine) meaning to speak, to say, tell, utter a voice, to state, propound, assert, transmit, answer, think, events without being an actual speech or dialogue
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 932-933 (qala) -
Salam Muslimtruthrevealed,
Assalaam Alaikum
The 'performance' of Salat is defined in the following ayahs...
Lets start with 'Raka'...
Who seeth you standing forth (in Prayer),
Allathee yaraka heena taqoomu ('Ya' is silenced in the recitation)
And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,
Wa taqallubaka fee alssajideena
Salat.....
O you folded in garments / almuzzammilu!
Ya ayyuha al-muzzammilu
Muzzammil (Active Participle, masculine, singular, Verb Form = VIII reflexive, declarant) carry knowledge or responsibility, recite ayats, one who is behind another (in knowledge and guidance), Man wrapped in garments, one who unites
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 235 (zamala); Lanes Lexicon Part/Volume #3 page 1252-1253Stand (to Prayer) by night, but not all night,-
Qumi allayla illa qaleelan
Half of it,- or a little less,
Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.Aw zid AAalayhi wa rattili alqurana tarteelan
Rattili recite disinctfully and thoughtfully, slow and gracefully
Tarteel denotes putting something together distinctly in a well arranged mannerSoon shall We send down to you a weighty Message.
Inna sanulqee AAalayka qawlan thaqeelan
qawlan (tanwin-fatha, plural, feminine) meaning to speak, to say, tell, utter a voice, to state, propound, assert, transmit, answer, think, events without being an actual speech or dialogue
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Ed. Page 932-933 (qala)What do you think this word (if we can call it word)
means? -
Salam Muslimtruthrevealed,
What do you think this word (if we can call it word)
means?Assalaam Alaikum
is an 'active participle' indicating effort or action associated with the use of the word.
More importantly its NOT what the word 'means' it's what the word 'represents', that is important.
Now we all know what 'means', would you be so kind as to making clear your point please?
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Assalaam Alaikum
is an 'active participle' indicating effort or action associated with the use of the word.
More importantly its NOT what the word 'means' it's what the word 'represents', that is important.
Now we all know what 'means', would you be so kind as to making clear your point please?
I don't know how you are interpreting this word and linking it to RAKA3A (To bow)...
The word is YARAAKA ... from the verb RA'AA (past tense and also root) - YARAA (Present Tense) which means TO SEE
YARAA(he sees) KA (you) <--- Thats the correct translation of this word...
Again, no idea why you silenced the YA when it never has to be silenced and is always promounced in all recitals....
Listen to this verse and pay special attention to the YA
http//mediaserver.hadi.org8080/ramgen/ra100/ra100_26.ra?start=004626.2&End=004633.7&mode=compact
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I don't know how you are interpreting this word and linking it to RAKA3A (To bow)...
The word is YARAAKA ... from the verb RA'AA (past tense and also root) - YARAA (Present Tense) which means TO SEE
YARAA(he sees) KA (you) <--- Thats the correct translation of this word...
Again, no idea why you silenced the YA when it never has to be silenced and is always promounced in all recitals....
Listen to this verse and pay special attention to the YA
http//mediaserver.hadi.org8080/ramgen/ra100/ra100_26.ra?start=004626.2&End=004633.7&mode=compact
Personally, I dont know why you are arguing the point.
The word is raka, period, whether one hafiz recites the 'ya' or another doesnt is NOT the point.
the word is 'Raka'.....
Now what is a 'raka'? What action and effort does the word represent?
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Peace MTR
Definitely... You are forcing the meaning here... The word there is Yaraaka... How are you reading it raaka?? Or are you omitting the YA purposely to prove your point... Consult your dictionary again and look for the word 'TO SEE' .... The verb in arabic is Yaraa ...
Its funny how you are just using a 'syllabe' from a whole word and distorting the meaning altogether....
450
Behold! how they invent a lie against God! but that by itself is a manifest sin! -
Assalaam Alaikum...
Again your focusing on ONE, literal interpretation....
yaraka heena taqoomu / We see you standing in (taqoomu) from root word Qama from which stems the word Qiyam which is part of a Raka
Next ayah...Allah is giving you the context of 'yaraka heena taqoomu'.....
And thy movements among those who prostrate themselves,
Wa taqallubaka fee alssajideena
What I get from these ayahs is the description of 'Raka' which begins with a 'Standing Position' and completes from a 'Prostration Position' and the 'interactive' movements between those positions.
The word 'taqallu-baka' has a conceptual meaning that also indicates a correlation with the reference to 'Baaka', Raka & Salat
The dictionaries are NOT going to give you conceptual or esoteric meanings.
Lets address the grammatical references as it relates to 'yaraka' /
"The Personal pronoun Kaf / is added for emphasis and is not purely for Pleonasm without adding to the meaning" Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 196
"Often, pleonasm is understood to mean a word or phrase which is useless, clich?d, or repetitive, but a pleonasm can also be simply an unremarkable use of idiom. It can even aid in achieving a specific linguistic effect, be it social, poetic, or literary. In particular, pleonasm sometimes serves the same function as rhetorical repetition ? it can be used to reinforce an idea, contention or question, rendering writing clearer and easier to understand.? pleonastic phrases can help ensure that the entire meaning gets across even if some of the words get lost." http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleonasm
Thus the 'idea' or 'concept' expressed in Sura Ash-Shu`ara' 26.218 & 219 is Raka
In Ash-Shu`ara' 26.218, when you 'strip' the 'ya' from the verb yaraka leaves you with 'Raka'
Ash-Shu`ara' 26.219 suggests that the 'movements' associated with those who 'Prostrate' are recognized as 'Raka', and in 'reality' those who prostrate are performing a 'unit' of action called 'Raka'
'Allah see's you standing, performing in Raka'
It is He who has revealed Al-Kitab / The Book over you. In it are muhkamat / governing ayats / signs. They are the mother of Al-Kitab / The Book and others are mutashabehat / resembling (ayats / signs). So in whose heart is deviation then they follow that resembles from it seeking captivation and its interpretation and no one knows its interpretation except Allah. Those who are stable in knowledge they say ?we believe with it all is from the nearness of our Lord.? And none remembers except those who well informed / well versed (regarding Allah?s guidance)
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Peace,
Well you are proving your point quite well, however, I do not think that we can come to such conclusions by adding and removing words or alphabets from the verses... Since Allah does not lack words, He could have used the word RAKAA plainly... why encrypt it deeply in other words... The Quran is said to be Al Moubeen.... If the quran should be interpreted this way, then i assure you that the majority of those who read the Quran will definitely fail to understand the true message...
However, this is my view on this...
Allah knows best...
Ma'salaam
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Muslimtruthrevealed,
Assalaam Alaikum
is an 'active participle' indicating effort or action associated with the use of the word.
More importantly its NOT what the word 'means' it's what the word 'represents', that is important.
Now we all know what 'means', would you be so kind as to making clear your point please?
consists of two letters + the pronoun which means you . The two letters and the pronoun do not make a word with a meaning...
The word means He sees you.
While the following is exactly like es you.
What does es you mean??Muslimtruthrevealed, you are creating a language of your own that has nothing to do with Arabic.
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The Quran is 'conforming' in all its parts....
READ 26.218 and 219...What is Allah indicating to YOU what is being viewed?
What?
Standing...Movements..Prostration?
Allah even gives you a clue!!!!
So someone just created the grammatical concept of 'Pleonasm', specifically for the word 'yaraka'?
Allah did!!!
I'qra means to be aware, use your intellect, understand, apply
Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or standing (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - ? Say. "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? IT IS THOSE WHO ARE ENDUED WITH UNDERSTANDING THAT RECEIVE ADMONITION.
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Peace MTR
Believe me, if people start to interprete the Quran like this, by adding or removing words,alphabets,pronouns and so on... so that the idea may fit... Well, we will end up with another chaos... Maybe much worse than what the hadith caused.... Who really knows... An example, people who venerate peer and saints, might soon find words that link their peer after they add or remove from the Quran...
Since Allah is not ALLOWING us to add or remove from the Quran, therefore, even mentally we cannot do that... It will simply distort the true message
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Peace MTR
Believe me, if people start to interprete the Quran like this, by adding or removing words,alphabets,pronouns and so on... so that the idea may fit... Well, we will end up with another chaos... Maybe much worse than what the hadith caused.... Who really knows... An example, people who venerate peer and saints, might soon find words that link their peer after they add or remove from the Quran...
Since Allah is not ALLOWING us to add or remove from the Quran, therefore, even mentally we cannot do that... It will simply distort the true message
@Wayfinder..Personally, I dont believe or follow your interpretation or understanding of the Quran. Thus your statements regarding distortions, 'interpreting', 'removing words' and references to 'chaos' are only statements you wish to use to slander those who dont think like you.
No one can remove or distort any words relative to guidance, Allah makes that statement in the Quran.
Unfortunately, this forum is indicative of the problem, literal interpretation without understanding. I notice much of the forum is focused on discussing literal interpretation of words (feet, donkey, etc.)
Even the Free Minds Arabic 'translation' in Modern Standard Arabic of the Quran presents a problem, which has ALL of the diagrammatic symbols removed.
Yet you want to argue with me about the significance and literal interpretation of the word 'yaraka', even though the ayah (and preceding ayah) tells you the context and meaning of the word.
'yaraka' is a transitive verb which requires an object, the object is YOU and I standing in Qiyam, performing the 'movements' associated with a 'Raka', confirmed by Al Sajideen, those who stand, bow and prostrate, in Raka.
I know Pleonasm, threw you off, after you accused me of lying and distorting the Quran. Perhaps you may wish to offer the same accusation to the creators of the Free Minds Arabic 'translation', you may find it applicable to their efforts.
'yaraka' /
"The Personal pronoun Kaf / is added for emphasis and is not purely for Pleonasm without adding to the meaning" Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 196
You may also wish to contact the publishers of the Dictionary of the Holy Quran by Omar (www.islamusa.org ISBN 09632067-8- , and indicate to them the Pleonasm reference makes you and others uncomfortable.
"Often, pleonasm is understood to mean a word or phrase which is useless, clich?d, or repetitive, but a pleonasm can also be simply an unremarkable use of idiom. It can even aid in achieving a specific linguistic effect, be it social, poetic, or literary. In particular, pleonasm sometimes serves the same function as rhetorical repetition ? it can be used to reinforce an idea, contention or question, rendering writing clearer and easier to understand.? pleonastic phrases can help ensure that the entire meaning gets across even if some of the words get lost." http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleonasm
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Peace Brother
I have another question for you....
We know that the Quran has the self reference concept in it and it explains itself all the time... And to support this idea, we have many proof from the Quran itself... Such as the 'sal limoo tasleemaaa' ... how Allah used this expression in the Quran and what is the true meaning ... The proof of self reference are really apparent all the time...
Now, since you are claiming that the pleonasm (which is support to make an idea clear) is present in the Quran, Allah must have used it all over the Quran similar to other concepts such as self-reference... Allah cannot use pleonasm in only this isolated case... So, it is on you to prove that pleonasm is well present in the Quran... All over it... Give us some more example please...
Thank you...
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Peace Brother
I have another question for you....
We know that the Quran has the self reference concept in it and it explains itself all the time... And to support this idea, we have many proof from the Quran itself... Such as the 'sal limoo tasleemaaa' ... how Allah used this expression in the Quran and what is the true meaning ... The proof of self reference are really apparent all the time...
Now, since you are claiming that the pleonasm (which is support to make an idea clear) is present in the Quran, Allah must have used it all over the Quran similar to other concepts such as self-reference... Allah cannot use pleonasm in only this isolated case... So, it is on you to prove that pleonasm is well present in the Quran... All over it... Give us some more example please...
Thank you...
Assalaam Alaikum @Wayfinder
Sure, No Problem......Keep in mind...
Pleonasm is the use of more words (or even word-parts) than necessary to express an idea clearly. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleonasm
Alif, Lam, Mim, Sad.
A Book revealed unto you,- So let thy heart be oppressed no more by any difficulty on that account,- that with it you mightest warn (the erring) and teach the Believers).Alif Lam Mim
These are Verses of the Wise Book,-Alif Lam Mim
Allah! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.
It is He Who sent down to you, in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the InjeelAlif Lam Mim
This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, withoutdoubt, to those who fear Allah;Alif Lam Ra These are the ayats of the Book of Wisdom
Alif Lam Ra (This is) a Book, with verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things).
Alif Lam Ra These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.
Alif Lam Mim Ra These are the signs (or verses) of the Book. that which has been revealed unto you from thy Lord is the Truth; but most men believe not.
Alif Lam Ra A Book which We have revealed unto you, in order that you mightest lead mankind out of the depths of darkness into light - by the leave of their Lord - to the Way of (Him) the Exalted in power, worthy of all praise!
Alif Lam Ra These are the Ayats of Revelation,- of a Qur'an that makes things clear.
Alif Lam Mim Ra
(This is) the Revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt,- from the Lord of the Worlds.@Wayfinder.......
There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. NOTHING HAVE WE OMITTED FROM THE BOOK, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
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Just a quick confirmation if it's not a problem. So there is no mentioning in the Quran about how many rakats to pray in the obligatory prayers, right? If so then it's probably because it's an insignificant detail, but I want to be sure. Don't have the time and energy at the moment to read big posts.
