Virgin Birth of Isa
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If Jesus had a father, why didn't God say he is not my son he is Joseph's????
Why the hell did the Quran alone community skipped all the incredible happenings found in the Quran and concentrated on the Virgin birth?? they are all equally impossible. Do you have a way to split the sea? or turn the staff into a snake!!( which is similar to the creation of Jesus btw) or the incredible miracles of Solomon etc etc. Amazing!!If Ozair had a father, why didn't God say he was not my son he is the son of "whoever"? (930).
The quraan alone community does not hold a unified opinion about many things, so do not generalize please. My understanding is not necessarily a standard understanding of the quraan alone community. As for the sea splitting and the turning of the cane into a snake, doesn't the quraan mention that in details and shows us the result of that (saving banu Israel, killing the pharoah and his army and preserving the body of the pharoah; turning many people towards God, including the wife of the pharoah)? Didn't God tell us, in details again, about the miracles of Solomon? Did He tell us that Jesus was fatherless or that Mary was virgin? Why then read what was not mentioned?
Have they ever wondered that the first creation was the most amazing and the most impossible?! here we are taking everything for granted though the signs around us is greater than the others.
Peace.
The first creation was not of Adam (if that's what you mean) but Adam's creation was preceded by the creation of "bashar". Adam "i.e the insaan" was the descendant of the bashar and was reproduced in the normal biological way God tells us we (the insaan) were created. from semen. Hence the comparison between Jesus and Adam (the insaan).
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If Ozair had a father, why didn't God say he was not my son he is the son of "whoever"? (930).
The quraan alone community does not hold a unified opinion about many things, so do not generalize please. My understanding is not necessarily a standard understanding of the quraan alone community. As for the sea splitting and the turning of the cane into a snake, doesn't the quraan mention that in details and shows us the result of that (saving banu Israel, killing the pharoah and his army and preserving the body of the pharoah; turning many people towards God, including the wife of the pharoah)? Didn't God tell us, in details again, about the miracles of Solomon? Did He tell us that Jesus was fatherless or that Mary was virgin? Why then read what was not mentioned?
The first creation was not of Adam (if that's what you mean) but Adam's creation was preceded by the creation of "bashar". Adam "i.e the insaan" was the descendant of the bashar and was reproduced in the normal biological way God tells us we (the insaan) were created. from semen. Hence the comparison between Jesus and Adam (the insaan).
God didn't discuss the Ozair issue. Doesn't the Quran mention that Jesus and the mother are signs? Wasn't Mary amazed when she was told that she will have a son though nobody touched her? She was young and she never said she was infertile, then why the hell is the amazement?!. You are simply twisting the scripture.
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Peace,
If Mary was not a virgin, then the talmud is right of her being a fornicator. If she was married to Joseph and everything is legit, why the hell didn't she say that when they accused her?
People What have you done Mary?
Mary Done what? Thats my baby from Joseph! DUH! He is like my husband! rotflPeace.
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Peace,
If Mary was not a virgin, then the talmud is right of her being a fornicator. If she was married to Joseph and everything is legit, why the hell didn't she say that when they accused her?
People What have you done Mary?
Mary Done what? Thats my baby from Joseph! DUH! He is like my husband! rotflPeace.
How did they ask her? By stones, slander, or soft blame? Those were people who believed in stoning. They would not even have asked her if they knew she was not married and had a child. They addressed her as "O sister of Aaron!" Who was Aaron? Was he a criminal or a priest? "Sister of Aaron" means "the like of Aaron". How would they describe a fornicator a "the like of Aaron"?
She did not say who the baby was, nor had the baby told them. Because that was not the question. Her people's concern was why she got married when she was donated to the temple and was supposed to stay unmarried like a nun. She broke the tradition, obeyed God's command and stood in the face of her people. That's why she was an example for the believers, together with the wife of the pharoah, because they both stood in the face of power and authority and chose the side of God. Why else would she be an example for the believers? Because she was virgin?The reaction in the Talmud accusing her of fornication is not different from the other extreme reaction in believing in her as a goddess or/and in Jesus as the son of God both result from believing that Mary had a bay on her own, without a husband.
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How did they ask her? By stones, slander, or soft blame? Those were people who believed in stoning. They would not even have asked her if they knew she was not married and had a child.
Stoning is not executed immediately. There is invetsigations first and the Sanhedrin will decide what they will do with her. And Rome were behind their ass. Plus stoning is not prescribed for fornication but for adultery. Mary was not going to get stoned anyway.
They addressed her as "O sister of Aaron!" Who was Aaron? Was he a criminal or a priest? "Sister of Aaron" means "the like of Aaron". How would they describe a fornicator a "the like of Aaron"?
I guess thats inaccurate. For 'sister' to mean like, it must be of the same sex. Like the signs of God. Some of them are sisters because they are similar. Mary was simply the sister of Aaron and the daughter of Imran. Singular to singular of opposite sexes = literal relationship.
She did not say who the baby was, nor had the baby told them. Because that was not the question. Her people's concern was why she got married when she was donated to the temple and was supposed to stay unmarried like a nun. She broke the tradition, obeyed God's command and stood in the face of her people. That's why she was an example for the believers, together with the wife of the pharoah, because they both stood in the face of power and authority and chose the side of God. Why else would she be an example for the believers? Because she was virgin?
According to Jewish tradition, there is no such things as 'Nuns'. Plus the Levitical priests are always males and were allowed to marry except divorcee and converts. So Mary didn't break anything. They told her
1928 O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!
What is this has to do with the mythological tradition of not getting married?? Is marriage a bad thing or unchastity?The reaction in the Talmud accusing her of fornication is not different from the other extreme reaction in believing in her as a goddess or/and in Jesus as the son of God both result from believing that Mary had a bay on her own, without a husband.
I guess this is the tradition! So where is that tradition that say the "Aaronic Sisterhood" actually existed and where does say they must not marry. These are all christian concepts that didn't even exist at the time of Mary.
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Stoning is not executed immediately. There is invetsigations first and the Sanhedrin will decide what they will do with her. And Rome were behind their ass. Plus stoning is not prescribed for fornication but for adultery. Mary was not going to get stoned anyway.I guess thats inaccurate. For 'sister' to mean like, it must be of the same sex. Like the signs of God. Some of them are sisters because they are similar. Mary was simply the sister of Aaron and the daughter of Imran. Singular to singular of opposite sexes = literal relationship.
According to Jewish tradition, there is no such things as 'Nuns'. Plus the Levitical priests are always males and were allowed to marry except divorcee and converts. So Mary didn't break anything. They told her
1928 ?O sister of Aaron, your father was not a bad man, and your mother was never unchaste!?
What is this has to do with the mythological tradition of not getting married?? Is marriage a bad thing or unchastity?I guess this is the tradition! So where is that tradition that say the "Aaronic Sisterhood" actually existed and where does say they must not marry. These are all christian concepts that didn't even exist at the time of Mary.Peace,
Rami, you are contradicting yourself. In the other thread you had agreed with me, but the above is the opposite. I suggest you to first read more on the subject then go ' internet' scholaring and suppose to know how the Levite class looked like. Mary as being family of Aaron and David was part of the holy bloodline that was protected by the priestclass of the Levi's. The term Nazarene comes from Nazre bitet meaning, the supporters and maintainers of the covenant/bond. They supported the covenant by maintaining the holy bloodline from which they expected the Messiah to be born from.
Only the priestclass was allowed to choose who Mary was going to marry to keep the bloodline 'pure'. The women of the holy bloodline were only viewed as breeders for the upcoming messiah.
And of what did her people accuse her off? The word used is Bagghiyah, which means 'anything that crosses the boundaries of good conduct or tradition'. It is logical that through Roman-Christian dogma, the word is understood to mean to cross sexual boundaries. But when we understand the purpose of the Nazerenes and that Mary was of the holy bloodline, it is clear the boiundaries here that were crossed, were not sexual but traditional.
She had fled the temple, married a non-holy bloodline person. When she came to her parents, seeign the baby, they knew it was not a 'pure' holy blood baby and so they said.
Oh Mary, why have you acted opposite of the tradition?
To me, this is far more logical and is line with modern discoveries on the Nazarene cult of the 1st century.
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Peace,
Rami, you are contradicting yourself. In the other thread you had agreed with me, but the above is the opposite.
Sorry, new things keep coming up.
I suggest you to first read more on the subject then go ' internet' scholaring and suppose to know how the Levite class looked like. Mary as being family of Aaron and David was part of the holy bloodline that was protected by the priestclass of the Levi's. The term Nazarene comes from Nazre bitet meaning, the supporters and maintainers of the covenant/bond. They supported the covenant by maintaining the holy bloodline from which they expected the Messiah to be born from. Only the priestclass was allowed to choose who Mary was going to marry to keep the bloodline 'pure'. The women of the holy bloodline were only viewed as breeders for the upcoming messiah.
A Levite -- a Jew who is a patrilineal descendant of Levi. All Levitical priests are males. Therefore, there is no way you can preserve a bloodline through a woman. If you want to preserve the Levites class, just let the Levitical men to marry and make male children. So Mary's marriage to anyone was irrelevant to the class.
And of what did her people accuse her off? The word used is Bagghiyah, which means 'anything that crosses the boundaries of good conduct or tradition'. It is logical that through Roman-Christian dogma, the word is understood to mean to cross sexual boundaries. But when we understand the purpose of the Nazerenes and that Mary was of the holy bloodline, it is clear the boiundaries here that were crossed, were not sexual but traditional.
She had fled the temple, married a non-holy bloodline person. When she came to her parents, seeign the baby, they knew it was not a 'pure' holy blood baby and so they said.
Oh Mary, why have you acted opposite of the tradition?
To me, this is far more logical and is line with modern discoveries on the Nazarene cult of the 1st century.
The problem here that the Nazarene cult believed in the Virgin Birth. However, the Ebionites share your view.
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Peace,
The Royal bloodline coming down from Aaron and David is different from the Levite priesthood. The Messiah would be born from royal blood, not just from the Levite class. This is why it was important for the priestclass to keep the line pure both on the female and male side. This is why the Essenes lived outside Jerusalem to protect the royal bloodline from the Romans.
Royal blood intermarries only with people from royal descent. A male was only allowed to marry a female royalty and a female was only allowed to marry a royal male. This is today the same with royal houses over the world. As I mentioned before, Mary is a title of her royalty, it is not a name.
There were many groups that defined themselves as Nazarene in later times as they all claimed to be the ' original' movement. The concept of virginity among Jews of the first century was very complex, please read the study of Geza Vermes on this. The Ebionites were Roman Hellenized Jews that took up the Messiah cult after the fall of Jerusalem and were dependent on the Gospel of Matthew and had nothing to do with the original movement.
If you really want to study and discuss on this subject, I suggest you first read more books and not wikipedia before making such amateur mistakes.
The original Nazarenes were rebels against the Roman occupation. The Zealots were its army, the Essenes were the Theologians, Nazarenes was the overall name used for the whole group. Please read the research over prof. Eisenman and others on this.
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Peace,
Deniers of the virgin birth say that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus and the husband of Mary. The problem here that Joseph is from the royal bloodline of David. Then why are they accusing Mary if everything went as planned?? Joseph seems to be a very important figure because he is simply the solution of this dispute around Mary but the Quran didn't even bother to mention his name or refer to him.
Peace.
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Peace,
If Joseph is the father of Jesus so Jesus must be called at least 'Jesus son of Joseph'. Throughout the history of Abrahamic religions, it is completely patrilineal eg. desecendants of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Amram etc. Mary is called the daughter of Imran but Jesus, for the first time in history, is a man called by his mother. Jesus son of Mary!! Why? you guess!
Peace.
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Peace,
Deniers of the virgin birth say that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus and the husband of Mary. The problem here that Joseph is from the royal bloodline of David. Then why are they accusing Mary if everything went as planned?? Joseph seems to be a very important figure because he is simply the solution of
this dispute around Mary but the Quran didn't even bother to mention his name or refer to him.Peace.
Peace,
Only 2 Gospels give the lineage of David through Joseph and both contradict each other on many important points. I am still researching the details, was Jospeh really from royal descent? Or was the whole issue
that he wasn't selected for the marriage, but Mary still married him anyway and this caused the problems. What we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls is that the Essenes where very selective
in their choice of couples and saw it as a holy decision that could not be rejected or changed. -
Peace,
If Joseph is the father of Jesus so Jesus must be called at least 'Jesus son of Joseph'. Throughout the history of Abrahamic religions, it is completely patrilineal eg. desecendants of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Amram etc. Mary is called the daughter of Imran but Jesus, for the first time in history, is a man called by his mother. Jesus son of Mary!! Why? you guess!
Peace.
Peace,
God doesn't follow the human rules of patriarchical lineage, we do. He doesn't distinguish between male and female as we do, only on a biological level.
At the time of Revelation, Jesus was known together with Mary, so it is logical he is called as such. God corrects human thinking, if we look at
verses 684-88 Jesus is mentioned among those who's fathers and brothers were blessed. Also the words used with Mary, that she became mohsannat, is in the Qur' an only used for married women. These clues educate us, together with the constant reference to the natural cycle of procreation in the Qur'an, I deduce not a miracle birth, but a natural one that had caused difficulties as it was a rebllion
against the holy system of the Essenes.This coincides with new historical understanding of the evidences.
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God doesn't follow the human rules of patriarchical lineage, we do.
Wrong. All the scriptures, blessing and promises follow the patriarchical lineage. So it is either God is following our rules or it is His rules. It is logical because your children is your seed not the mother's so they are your descendants.
At the time of Revelation, Jesus was known together with Mary, so it is logical he is called as such.
Saying Jesus is the son of Joseph will put an end to this argument very quickly. The Quran chose to speak about creation instead? Weird.
God corrects human thinking, if we look at verses 684-88 Jesus is mentioned among those who's fathers and brothers were blessed.
684 And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided; and Noah We guided from before; and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We reward the good doers.
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
686 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
687 And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.Ok. Lets see. You forgot and their progeny! Did Jesus had a progeny? Did John the baptist had a brother?
Also the words used with Mary, that she became mohsannat, is in the Qur' an only used for married women.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing protected women(Mohasanat), then from those committed to you by oath of the believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the protected women. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Here the word Mohasanat is used for non-married women available for marriage, unless you are saying you can marry a married women ;D
Peace.
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Rami !
Brother Arnold's opinion on this subject is far fethched. We have had lengthy debates in the past but his theory just does not stand any chance
Read 4-24 along with 4-25 , and you would know that your last argument is not very accurate. Mohsinnats simply means chaste women
siki
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Wrong. All the scriptures, blessing and promises follow the patriarchical lineage. So it is either God is following our rules or it is His rules. It is logical because your children is your seed not the mother's so they are your descendants.
All the scriptures? Only the Qur'an can be trusted as scripture, and when the Qur'an presents the lineage of persons in the Qur'an it always mentions the Prophets
among their forefathers as that is the subject at that moment, but it is not because the Qur'an prefers men over women when it comes to lineage.Saying Jesus is the son of Joseph will put an end to this argument very quickly. The Quran chose to speak about creation instead? Weird.
Like many of your posts recently shows, the Qur'an uses sometimes to us confusing wording or subjects.
684 And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided; and Noah We guided from before; and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We reward the good doers.
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
686 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
687 And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.Ok. Lets see. You forgot and their progeny! Did Jesus had a progeny? Did John the baptist had a brother?
EVERY Prophet/Messenger was married and had children
1338 And certainly We sent messengers before you, and We appointed for them wives and children as well.
1338 We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring.
And according the verse it seems John had brothers, the Gospel on John is short and very doubtfull in its truthfullness.
Later after posting I also noticed my mistake about mohsannat but was to late for editing )
When I get home from work I will have more time to discuss the words.
And Siki, a virgin birth is more farfetched then anything I can come up with (well, that she was abducted by aliens hasn't been mentioned yet)
which is why using logica and reason I prefer when approaching this subject. A virgin birth has no function at all whatsoever in spreading Revelation and showing the truth.
And God doesn't do anything in vain, see 3190-191. -
Hi there,
I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -JesusCan I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh
Peace.
Peace Rami
Samia and Arnold ran away from answering many questions in this thread; now they are comming back with the same old lies.
Samia said
Please give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except. Otherwise, you are talking of contradictions in the quraan.And I said on July 16, 2008
(80-24
(86-5(80-25
(86-6(80-26
(86-7Then chapter 80 continue as follow
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
After 4 month, Samia, can you reply?
Samia and Arnold, do you remmber this
I would like to share with you and everybody another Signs from the Quran regarding Jesus Birth without a Father.
There are two true stories, in the Quran, about Zakaria and Mary in Chapter 3 as followIn the Case of Zakaria
(٩
While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet of the company of the righteous." (3-39)In the Case of Mary
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Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah give thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (45)Conclusion
Both Zakaria and Mary were given glad tidings by the Angels.
Zakaria was about a Son by the name of Yahia and Mary a Son by the name of Jesus.
Yahia witnessing (Believing) the truth of a Word from Allah.
Jesus is a Word of Allah. Thus, Yahia will be a believer and witness of Jesus.In the Case of Zakaria
(٠
He said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah do what he willth (wants, wishes)." (3-40)In the Case of Mary
(٦ (٧
She said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah createth what He willeth (wants, wishes); when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (47)Conclusion
Zakaria said ?how can I have a Son when a) I?m an Old Man, b) My Wife is Barren (can?t have a baby).
Mary said ?how can I have a Son when a) No Men has Touched Me.
The Angel answered Zakaria by Saying ?Allah DO What He Wishes?
The Angel answered Mary by Saying ?Allah CREATES What He Wishes by using BE-AND- IT-IS? METHOD. (it is the same method he Created Adam with)THESE ARE TRUE SIGNS FROM YOUR LORD, IF YOU WISH, BELIEVE OR DISBLIEVE.
Do you remember this
In many verses, God ordered us to be kind to our parents, Father and Mother.
So, for example in chapter 19, there is a clear comparison between Yahya and Jesus regarding being kind to their father and mother
In the case of Yahya
(٢ (٣ (٤
(To his son came the command) "O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might" and We gave him wisdom even as a youth. (19-12) And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity he was devout (13) And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. (14)In the case of Jesus
(٢
"And kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (19-32)Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
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Peace Rami
Samia and Arnold ran away from answering many questions in this thread; now they are comming back with the same old lies.Salaam belal
"lies" is too inappropriate a word for a discussion. I hope you change your aggressive language so that people can continue discussing with you without fearing this kind of bullying.
Now, what was your response to my question?(80-24
(80-25
(80-26
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).These verses speak of what human can "see" of the development of their food, mainly the food they participate in its formation. It's not about the kinds of food they eat. They did not "see" how shrimps, chicken or cattle were ceated. The verse does not speak of how it is created. The word "created", which is the key word of this discusion, does not even show in these verses. Just because the verses rhyme in a way or another, that does not mean they have the same theme. In fact the two different sets of verses strt with "Let man see/look at". If you have your eyes open wide, you will understand that God is putting us as witnesses to His laws of Human creation and cultivaion (ayas)through testifying of what we literally participate in.
(86-5
(86-6
(86-7The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
This is circular argument. Where do we understand from this verse that there's an exception for it? That's fabrication, just like adding the word "created" to chapter 80 above to decieve uninformed audience. And you dare call what I say "lies"?
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Mohsinnats simply means chaste women
siki
425
Let's tanslate this, with "muhsanaat" meaning "chaste""If they become chaste and then fornicated/committed zina then they will have half the punishment of the chaste women"!!
What's the meaning of "chaste women" according to you siki? -
Hi there,
I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -JesusCan I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh
Peace.
Peace Rami,
Again a very shortsighted argument. If the father of Jesus had died while he was young, then Jesus could not have been dutiful to his father. So your argument to use this as proof has no merit.
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Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
Peace,
Shortsighted argument. If the father had died while Jesus was unborn yet or being a babe, he could never had the chance to be kind to his father. So again your argument has no merit.