Virgin Birth of Isa
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Peace,
Deniers of the virgin birth say that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus and the husband of Mary. The problem here that Joseph is from the royal bloodline of David. Then why are they accusing Mary if everything went as planned?? Joseph seems to be a very important figure because he is simply the solution of this dispute around Mary but the Quran didn't even bother to mention his name or refer to him.
Peace.
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Peace,
If Joseph is the father of Jesus so Jesus must be called at least 'Jesus son of Joseph'. Throughout the history of Abrahamic religions, it is completely patrilineal eg. desecendants of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Amram etc. Mary is called the daughter of Imran but Jesus, for the first time in history, is a man called by his mother. Jesus son of Mary!! Why? you guess!
Peace.
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Peace,
Deniers of the virgin birth say that Joseph is the biological father of Jesus and the husband of Mary. The problem here that Joseph is from the royal bloodline of David. Then why are they accusing Mary if everything went as planned?? Joseph seems to be a very important figure because he is simply the solution of
this dispute around Mary but the Quran didn't even bother to mention his name or refer to him.Peace.
Peace,
Only 2 Gospels give the lineage of David through Joseph and both contradict each other on many important points. I am still researching the details, was Jospeh really from royal descent? Or was the whole issue
that he wasn't selected for the marriage, but Mary still married him anyway and this caused the problems. What we know from the Dead Sea Scrolls is that the Essenes where very selective
in their choice of couples and saw it as a holy decision that could not be rejected or changed. -
Peace,
If Joseph is the father of Jesus so Jesus must be called at least 'Jesus son of Joseph'. Throughout the history of Abrahamic religions, it is completely patrilineal eg. desecendants of Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Amram etc. Mary is called the daughter of Imran but Jesus, for the first time in history, is a man called by his mother. Jesus son of Mary!! Why? you guess!
Peace.
Peace,
God doesn't follow the human rules of patriarchical lineage, we do. He doesn't distinguish between male and female as we do, only on a biological level.
At the time of Revelation, Jesus was known together with Mary, so it is logical he is called as such. God corrects human thinking, if we look at
verses 684-88 Jesus is mentioned among those who's fathers and brothers were blessed. Also the words used with Mary, that she became mohsannat, is in the Qur' an only used for married women. These clues educate us, together with the constant reference to the natural cycle of procreation in the Qur'an, I deduce not a miracle birth, but a natural one that had caused difficulties as it was a rebllion
against the holy system of the Essenes.This coincides with new historical understanding of the evidences.
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God doesn't follow the human rules of patriarchical lineage, we do.
Wrong. All the scriptures, blessing and promises follow the patriarchical lineage. So it is either God is following our rules or it is His rules. It is logical because your children is your seed not the mother's so they are your descendants.
At the time of Revelation, Jesus was known together with Mary, so it is logical he is called as such.
Saying Jesus is the son of Joseph will put an end to this argument very quickly. The Quran chose to speak about creation instead? Weird.
God corrects human thinking, if we look at verses 684-88 Jesus is mentioned among those who's fathers and brothers were blessed.
684 And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided; and Noah We guided from before; and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We reward the good doers.
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
686 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
687 And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.Ok. Lets see. You forgot and their progeny! Did Jesus had a progeny? Did John the baptist had a brother?
Also the words used with Mary, that she became mohsannat, is in the Qur' an only used for married women.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the believing protected women(Mohasanat), then from those committed to you by oath of the believing young women. God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be protected, not for illicit sex or taking lovers. If they become protected, then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half the punishment of what is for the protected women. This is for those who fear hardship from among you. But if you are patient it is better for you, and God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Here the word Mohasanat is used for non-married women available for marriage, unless you are saying you can marry a married women ;D
Peace.
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Rami !
Brother Arnold's opinion on this subject is far fethched. We have had lengthy debates in the past but his theory just does not stand any chance
Read 4-24 along with 4-25 , and you would know that your last argument is not very accurate. Mohsinnats simply means chaste women
siki
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Wrong. All the scriptures, blessing and promises follow the patriarchical lineage. So it is either God is following our rules or it is His rules. It is logical because your children is your seed not the mother's so they are your descendants.
All the scriptures? Only the Qur'an can be trusted as scripture, and when the Qur'an presents the lineage of persons in the Qur'an it always mentions the Prophets
among their forefathers as that is the subject at that moment, but it is not because the Qur'an prefers men over women when it comes to lineage.Saying Jesus is the son of Joseph will put an end to this argument very quickly. The Quran chose to speak about creation instead? Weird.
Like many of your posts recently shows, the Qur'an uses sometimes to us confusing wording or subjects.
684 And We granted him Isaac and Jacob, both of whom We guided; and Noah We guided from before; and from his progeny is David, and Solomon, and Job, and Joseph, and Moses, and Aaron. It is such that We reward the good doers.
685 And Zachariah and John, and Jesus, and Elias; all were from the upright.
686 And Ishmael and Elisha and Jonah and Lot; and each We have preferred over the worlds.
687 And from their fathers and their progeny and their brothers We have also chosen; and We guided them to a straight path.Ok. Lets see. You forgot and their progeny! Did Jesus had a progeny? Did John the baptist had a brother?
EVERY Prophet/Messenger was married and had children
1338 And certainly We sent messengers before you, and We appointed for them wives and children as well.
1338 We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring.
And according the verse it seems John had brothers, the Gospel on John is short and very doubtfull in its truthfullness.
Later after posting I also noticed my mistake about mohsannat but was to late for editing )
When I get home from work I will have more time to discuss the words.
And Siki, a virgin birth is more farfetched then anything I can come up with (well, that she was abducted by aliens hasn't been mentioned yet)
which is why using logica and reason I prefer when approaching this subject. A virgin birth has no function at all whatsoever in spreading Revelation and showing the truth.
And God doesn't do anything in vain, see 3190-191. -
Hi there,
I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -JesusCan I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh
Peace.
Peace Rami
Samia and Arnold ran away from answering many questions in this thread; now they are comming back with the same old lies.
Samia said
Please give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except. Otherwise, you are talking of contradictions in the quraan.And I said on July 16, 2008
(80-24
(86-5(80-25
(86-6(80-26
(86-7Then chapter 80 continue as follow
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
After 4 month, Samia, can you reply?
Samia and Arnold, do you remmber this
I would like to share with you and everybody another Signs from the Quran regarding Jesus Birth without a Father.
There are two true stories, in the Quran, about Zakaria and Mary in Chapter 3 as followIn the Case of Zakaria
(٩
While he was standing in prayer in the chamber, the angels called unto him "Allah doth give thee glad tidings of Yahya, witnessing the truth of a Word from Allah and (be besides) noble, chaste, and a Prophet of the company of the righteous." (3-39)In the Case of Mary
(٥
Behold! the angels said "O Mary! Allah give thee glad tidings of a Word from Him his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. (45)Conclusion
Both Zakaria and Mary were given glad tidings by the Angels.
Zakaria was about a Son by the name of Yahia and Mary a Son by the name of Jesus.
Yahia witnessing (Believing) the truth of a Word from Allah.
Jesus is a Word of Allah. Thus, Yahia will be a believer and witness of Jesus.In the Case of Zakaria
(٠
He said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son, seeing I am very old, and my wife is barren? He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah do what he willth (wants, wishes)." (3-40)In the Case of Mary
(٦ (٧
She said "O my Lord! how shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said (the Angel) "Doth Allah createth what He willeth (wants, wishes); when He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it `Be', and it is! (47)Conclusion
Zakaria said ?how can I have a Son when a) I?m an Old Man, b) My Wife is Barren (can?t have a baby).
Mary said ?how can I have a Son when a) No Men has Touched Me.
The Angel answered Zakaria by Saying ?Allah DO What He Wishes?
The Angel answered Mary by Saying ?Allah CREATES What He Wishes by using BE-AND- IT-IS? METHOD. (it is the same method he Created Adam with)THESE ARE TRUE SIGNS FROM YOUR LORD, IF YOU WISH, BELIEVE OR DISBLIEVE.
Do you remember this
In many verses, God ordered us to be kind to our parents, Father and Mother.
So, for example in chapter 19, there is a clear comparison between Yahya and Jesus regarding being kind to their father and mother
In the case of Yahya
(٢ (٣ (٤
(To his son came the command) "O Yahya! Take hold of the Book with might" and We gave him wisdom even as a youth. (19-12) And pity (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity he was devout (13) And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious. (14)In the case of Jesus
(٢
"And kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; (19-32)Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
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Peace Rami
Samia and Arnold ran away from answering many questions in this thread; now they are comming back with the same old lies.Salaam belal
"lies" is too inappropriate a word for a discussion. I hope you change your aggressive language so that people can continue discussing with you without fearing this kind of bullying.
Now, what was your response to my question?(80-24
(80-25
(80-26
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).These verses speak of what human can "see" of the development of their food, mainly the food they participate in its formation. It's not about the kinds of food they eat. They did not "see" how shrimps, chicken or cattle were ceated. The verse does not speak of how it is created. The word "created", which is the key word of this discusion, does not even show in these verses. Just because the verses rhyme in a way or another, that does not mean they have the same theme. In fact the two different sets of verses strt with "Let man see/look at". If you have your eyes open wide, you will understand that God is putting us as witnesses to His laws of Human creation and cultivaion (ayas)through testifying of what we literally participate in.
(86-5
(86-6
(86-7The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
This is circular argument. Where do we understand from this verse that there's an exception for it? That's fabrication, just like adding the word "created" to chapter 80 above to decieve uninformed audience. And you dare call what I say "lies"?
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Mohsinnats simply means chaste women
siki
425
Let's tanslate this, with "muhsanaat" meaning "chaste""If they become chaste and then fornicated/committed zina then they will have half the punishment of the chaste women"!!
What's the meaning of "chaste women" according to you siki? -
Hi there,
I would like to add an idea that proves the Quran is really talking about a virgin birth. I don't know if someone said this before or not.
1914 And dutiful to his parents, and never was he a tyrant or disobedient. -John
1932 ?And to be dutiful to my mother, and He did not make me a rebellious tyrant.? -JesusCan I say checkmate? John had a father and a mother and was dutiful to both of them. Jesus can only be dutiful to his mother because he doesn't have a father! Unless you believe Jesus kicked his father's ass. laugh
Peace.
Peace Rami,
Again a very shortsighted argument. If the father of Jesus had died while he was young, then Jesus could not have been dutiful to his father. So your argument to use this as proof has no merit.
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Now, why Jesus was only Kind to his Mother, which is against God?s order to be kind to both, Father and Mother. Is it because he never had a father to be kind to.
Peace,
Shortsighted argument. If the father had died while Jesus was unborn yet or being a babe, he could never had the chance to be kind to his father. So again your argument has no merit.
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Peace all
Peace,
Shortsighted argument. If the father had died while Jesus was unborn yet or being a babe, he could never had the chance to be kind to his father. So again your argument has no merit.
Are you claiming that Jesus had a Father who died before Jesus was born? Are you Claiming that Jesus Father was among the righteous people?
As I taught (3-7) you before, when arguing about the Unseen, you need to support your argument with Well-established Quranic verses; otherwise, you are fabricating lies about God. Do you have evidences? will, I will answer for you.....NOSalaam belal
Now, what was your response to my question?
After 5 month, you are answering. That is how long did it take you to think and provide This answer? I think you need to take more time so you can provide a better one.
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Peace all
Samia, I think you forgot what did you ask me to provide, five month ago. Here it isPlease give me an example of God making exceptions to statements in the form of all X is Y, without explicitly showing immediately except.
And that was my answer
(80-24
(86-5(80-25
(86-6(80-26
(86-7Then chapter 80 continue as follow
( ( ( ( ( (As you can note, both, the verses in chapter 86 and 80, are being constructed the same way with the same arabic words.
The exceptions for Chapter 80, where God shows how human food being created by rain and soil, are human food that comes from Sea (shrimp or Fish), Animals (beef or Lamb), and Birds (Pigeon or Chichen for example).The exceptions for chapter 86 are Jesus (even God did not say he is Human like us, but "God's Word" "Spirit from God" "Sign of God", Adam, and Adam's Wife.
Just for the record ;D
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What's the meaning of "chaste women" according to you siki?
The Mohsinnats
is the title given by All mighty to all those women who do not belong to prohibited (hurmat) 14 in 4-22 ,4-23 and are desirous of protecting themselves from sexual acts other than sanctioned/authorised/legalised/prescribed by God, and we have a title for them,
""""chaste women"""" and you can find these women among believing, non believing, people of the book etc.
Any or all of these could be found in a bunch gathered as "Ma Malakat Emnakum" as well .MY mother /daughter/sister could be chaste women but are not" Mohsinnas" for me.
Proven fahishas or Zaniaas are deprived of this title, and hence from God's recommendation for marriage.
peace
siki
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The Mohsinnats
is the title given by All mighty to all those women who do not belong to prohibited (hurmat) 14 in 4-22 ,4-23 and are desirous of protecting themselves from sexual acts other than sanctioned/authorised/legalised/prescribed by God, and we have a title for them,
""""chaste women"""" and you can find these women among believing, non believing, people of the book etc.
Any or all of these could be found in a bunch gathered as "Ma Malakat Emnakum" as well .MY mother /daughter/sister could be chaste women but are not" Mohsinnas" for me.
Proven fahishas or Zaniaas are deprived of this title, and hence from God's recommendation for marriage.
peace
siki
Thanks for the reply
Then I have undersood you well. Would you now let's/me understand how this meaning fits in verse 425? -
Peace,
The Reading clearly mentions God's laws regarding human reproduction. Adam was shaped by God, and all other humans are Adam's descendants, born from the joining of a man and a woman. Jesus was no different, and he was a man, just like other men, born of a mother and father. And since God's way ("sunna" is unchangeable (4823), we can presume that He didn't make an exception with Jesus... The virgin birth doctrine is a concept inherited through Christianity, paganism, and superstition. These same people allege Jesus' divinity, a concept that is completely rejected in the Reading...
Also, the scriptures identify Jesus as the "mashiach"/messiah/annointed one. According to Jewish law, the mashiach was granted the throne of King David through the lineage of his FATHER, not his mother. So, if Jesus had no father, he couldn't possibly be the foretold Jewish messiah, and this conflicts with the Reading, which specifically refers to him by this title... Two of the many stipulations of the maschiach according to Jewish doctrine included being born of TWO PARENTS (a father and a mother) and his traceable lineage through his FATHER to the bloodline of King Solomon. Do you deny that Jesus was the messiah? If not, he had to have had a human father.
Peace,
Ahmad
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There are several other prophets whose fathers are not specifically mentioned in the Qur-an , for example, Nuh, Dawud, Ayyub, Musa, Harun, Zakariya, whose name exists in the list of 18 prophets in the above verses. Even though we don?t find the mention of fathers of these prophets we believe these prophets did have fathers. But in case of Jesus we make the exception that he did not have a father. We make this exception because the Christian teachings tell us that Jesus did not have a father, although time and again Bible refers to his father as a person named Joseph.
Forefathers of Dawud, Sulaiman, Ayub, Yousaf, Musa and Haroon is mentioned in verse 684, they were the posterity of Ibrahim. Salam upon all them.
O
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Perhaps does not mean fathers of them all. It means some from forefathers, and perhaps also refers to fathers and grandfathers of one's mother. When Syeda Maryam after the birth of Easa alahissalam comes back to her people with a child in her lap, she was addressed by people who knew her, new her father, mother, brother but they were not aware of any person who could be referredd as husband.
If it was known to people of her time that she had a husband what was so funny in it to come back with a child in lap that they should use such words? A married woman is addressed by her husband's name. They did know nothing about her husband and people after hundreds of years are so sure that she had a husband. Many people like to live with illusions.