All Mighty God?
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Peace Belalhammad,
Who has told you this? All of GOD's creation has free will, certainly not humans only. The angels have free will, as do the mountains and the entire universe.
Then He turned to the sky, when it was still gas, and said to it, and to the earth, "Come into existence, willingly or unwillingly." They said, "We come willingly." (4111)
The statement "willingly or unwillingly" shows that there was a choice in the matter, and this is even a confirmation of the Torah, which says that certain creations of GOD chose to disobey His commands, and they were either annihilated or they submitted to Him. Indeed, He is most powerful.
Are they seeking other than GOD's religion, when everything in the heavens and the earth has submitted to Him, willingly and unwillingly, and to Him they will be returned? (383)
This verse uses the word "EVERYTHING" instead of "everyone". This shows that all of GOD's creation, even the things we consider inanimate/unliving, have a choice to obey GOD's command, and by their choices they are either rewarded or severely punished. This applies to everything GOD has created.
We have offered the responsibility to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant. (3372)
This verse is also stated in the Torah, and according to the Jews, this is a reference to the Torah itself, and only the nation of Israel was willing to submit to GOD and accept His law; all others were fearful and refused. Regardless, though, we see that the heavens and earth and the mountains all had the choice to bear this great responsibility, and they all were fearful and refused. So, if all these objects and subjects of GOD's creation have the choice to obey or disobey, why do you believe the angels to be any different? Nowhere in the Quran, or in the previous scriptures, will you find that the angels are robots who are forced to obey GOD's commands. They make a choice just like all other forms of His creation, and this is clarified by Satan's rebellion and refusal to pay homage to the man, Adam, after GOD instructed all the angels to do so...
Peace,
Ahmad
Bilal you should learn from your other part i agree witjh Ahmed Bilal peace ;D
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Peace everyone,
God is all knowing.
"Ya3lama" in 594 is usually mistranslated as "will know" but that will cause contradiction with God being "3aleem"/all knowing. "Ya3lama" can also mean "will distinguish" and that is the correct meaning
594 O you who believe, God will test you with some of the game for hunting coming within reach of your hands and your spears, so that God will distinguish who reveres Him when unseen. Whoever aggresses after this, then he will have a painful retribution.
God is gathering evidence and distinguishing one from the other for the sake of one's fellow creation (not to know Himself but for the creation to know by distinguishing one from the other) so that the fellow creation cannot say that one's recompense was unfair on the Last Day
3140 If you are wounded, then know that the other group is also wounded. And such are the days, We alternate them between the people, so that God will DISTINGUISH those who believe, and so He may make witnesses from among you; and God does not like the wicked.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Experiment_with_Time
?Dunne's theory, elaborated from years of experiments into precognitive dreams and induced precognitive states, is that in reality all Time is eternally present ie that past, present and future are all happening at the same time. Human consciousness, however, experiences this simultaneity in linear form. Dunne posits that in the dreaming state this way of interpreting Time ceases to be as concrete as when we are awake. Thus we are capable of having what we call precognitive dreams as consciousness finds itself free to roam across past, present and future. From this Dunne posited that we existed on two levels ourselves, both inside and outside Time, thus suggesting the notion of Immortality contained in his later books 'The New Immortality' and 'Nothing Dies'.
The idea that Time (and, by extension, humanity) exists both simultaneously and linearly is a difficult one to grasp. One analogy is that of a book. At any given moment the entirety of a book exists in itself but at any given moment we can only read one page at a time, the other pages, while existing simultaneously with the one we are reading, remaining outside our consciousness. If we could somehow read every page of the book at once, or be able to experience the book in its entirety in a single moment then we would be closer to a real experience of it. Similarly in our lives we are conscious of only one moment in Time, the present, rather than our past, present and future together. The past is remembered but not physically experienced, the future remains unknown.
To achieve the simultaneous awareness of past, present and future would mean a complete reevaluation of the nature of our existence in terms of consciousness, Time and physical reality, something which Dunne argues is the logical conclusion of his work.?
God can see the past, present and future AT THE SAME TIME. That is how He knows with 100 % accuracy without forcing any of our choices.
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Dear Diem,
Answer to your question according to my understanding is very long and needs clearer understanding of the system of God (Deen). In my unerstanding, Unless you understand God's system completely you cannot have the answer to your question because your question is based on wrong assumptions.
Your question was
If God knows everything that is going to happen, what is the point of creating humans if he knows what they are going to do? What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so whats the point?
God knows everything that is going to happen
it is correct but it is not related to deeds.What is the point of creating humans
this part has already been answered in the posts by other participants.If he knows what they are going to do?
he knows and he also does according to their deeds.What I have been taught for my whole life is that god created humans to see who would worship him and who wouldn't, but he already knows so what?s the point
In my understanding you have been taught wrong that he created us for worship. There is no such thing as worship in Quran, this word is created by religious fanatics and in Quran equaling of worship in my understanding is minasik(rituals)In my understanding the problem in understanding is due to following reasons
- Idea of having one life (it is a cycle he created for us to reach salvation and we will remain in this cycle until Yawmmuddin)
- Divisions will be hell and heaven only. (actually three divisions)
- Assumptions about hell and heaven (it is same as this land or world)
- God does what he wills assumed wrongly (changing of circumstances by God)
- Translating yawmmuddin into judgment day. (time of the God?s system)
Answers are in Quran but if you want the exact verses then please let me know and I will find it for you. Not putting right now is due to short time.
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Okay...
this is getting a bit off topic,
lets organize the major thoughts here,"We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)
So relative to Allah, we were created in a means or a way in which Allah has chosen to manifest his attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and he could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship Allah. As we said, Allah does not need our worship, a Allah didn?t need to create. When he created us to worship him, he didn?t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs
sun Gloru be to lord--Thanks for your explanation, I think so far this makes the most sense to me.
A good point that was brought up was that time is an illusion, there is no "passing" of time, time is the interval between an event occuring constantly
Lets say today I decide I am going to go shopping for apples tomorrow. So based on this God predicts that I am going to buy apples. When I get to the store the oranges look more delicious and I decide to buy them. Does this not mean that God was wrong about me buying apples? (astagfirallah &
From this we can extrapolate the fact that god exists outside of the binds of time and space.From what I understand so far.
- God created is because it is in his nature to create.
- God has no need to be worshipped because he doesnt need us
- God is not bound to his creation (time, space, and the other forces active and present in the universe)
Out of these three ideas I conclude that God created us because it is in his nature to create and not because he needs to be worshipped. Also, God exists "outside" of the laws of the universe because he is not subjec to his own creation.
Although these are all good ideas, this doesnt explain why God Almighty would create anything in the first place. I think we are back to square one brickwall-----If someone has more to add to this discussion please do so
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Is there any answer yet,
this is creating a ton of doubt in my mind that I would prefer was not there... &I'll ask, as simply as I can.
If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
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If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
Peace all
The outcome of God creations is known to him, and therefore, He created us.
And for the out come to be real, we had to go through the Free-Well experience.Salam
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Peace Diem,
The answer lies in panentheism. We were created (converted from an existence as pure energy/spirits to a material existence) with our own permission !
Before our creation we were existing as energy/spirits as a miniscule part of the One Whole. Our creation as a material existence in this material universe with free will was carried out with our informed consent. We let it happen to ourselves, knowing the consequences! God did it only after our permission after we were explained the risk of possibility of walking the wrong path and ending up in hell.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
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If we do not know what God is, how can we discuss why "He" does this or that?
Peace Samia
I will pray for you to Know God as I and others did.
My first advise for you is to understand God's words as a simple and clear words, and not as a complected and puzzling words. And when you do, you will start to get to Know about Him. -
Peace Samia
I will pray for you to Know God as I and others did.
My first advise for you is to understand God's words as a simple and clear words, and not as a complected and puzzling words. And when you do, you will start to get to Know about Him.So, what is God? He gave parables for Himself and told us that He is unlike anything, and you come to tell me you know what He is? Typical, always claiming to know things but much a do about othing
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Peace Diem,
The answer lies in panentheism. We were created (converted from an existence as pure energy/spirits to a material existence) with our own permission !
Before our creation we were existing as energy/spirits as a miniscule part of the One Whole. Our creation as a material existence in this material universe with free will was carried out with our informed consent. We let it happen to ourselves, knowing the consequences! God did it only after our permission after we were explained the risk of possibility of walking the wrong path and ending up in hell.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
I've never quite looked him panentheism, but it sounds "theoretical", in that how do we know? I'm guessing its based on your interpretation of that Ayat.
Still waiting for an explanation to my question... brickwall
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Peace bro ?Arnold?,
Hope you're fine. Im not posting much yet but might so again in a few weeks. Anyways i wanted to comment on a point of yours.
It seems Allah has allowed us to have free will and for Him not to decide our decisions, this means He has voluntarely limited His control on our destiny by everytime creating options, and although He knows we are gonna take, He had not decided that before we took it as we decide our own development. That is His true rahma.
JK- I?ve been thinking about this too BUT it is somewhat problematic and I?ll point out why. If GOD does not control our destiny or even if He merely limited His control on our destiny then how is it possible that He?s accurately able to control our life and death which is clearly mentioned in the Quran and that nobody dies EXCEPT at an appointed time by Him
No one dies except by GOD's leave, at a predetermined time?
Now if so many people make a choice to kill certain people or so many people make mistakes due to which other?s lives are put in danger and there?s a high chance of them dying, then this would mean in all those or at least in most of such cases GOD would have to INTERVENE in the universe in order to save those lives because their fixed time had not yet come and this is against what we both agreed upon earlier i.e. GOD?s System being fixed and never changing. Also that free will only exists in our frame of reference and not in GOD?s is proven by the following Quranic verses
I?ll first quote the latter verse
Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you?
HOWEVER the previous verse says
Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles. When something good happens to them, they say, "This is from GOD," and when something bad afflicts them, they blame you. Say, "Everything comes from GOD." Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?
Indeed I had trouble understanding these verses and was almost forced to admit to myself that this is a contradiction YET it is absolutely logical and true if we consider the relative frame of reference argument I?ve just made. Hence 479 is relative to us humans whilst 478 makes it clear that from GOD?s pt of reference EVERYTHING IS PLANNED AND EVERYTHING IS GOOD. Technically we can never speak of GOD wronging anyone as well since the term ?wrong? itself ONLY MAKES SENSE IN OUR RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE AND NEVER FROM THAT OF GOD?S as is also made clear in many verses
...But He never misleads thereby except the wicked,
who violate GOD's covenant after pledging to uphold it, sever what GOD has commanded to be joined, and commit evil. These are the losers.
...GOD never wronged them; it is they who wronged themselves.
We never wronged them; they wronged their own souls?
...GOD is not the One who wronged them; they are the ones who wronged their own souls.
Hence the most logical conclusion I?ve reached now is that free will/choice only exists in OUR RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE and everything we know as evil is relative too and there is NO ABSOLUTE EVIL. Thus even what is known to us as evil in our relative frame of reference ultimately still belongs to GOD?s Plan and serves a useful/beneficial purpose which we may or may not be aware off at any point in time in this universe. Hence the terms ?mislead, wringed, wicked? have no meaning from GOD?s frame of reference. YET we see in the above verses GOD putting Himself in our frame of reference and thus clarifying the issue to us which is a necessity for the causal continuum of our universe. Only in 478 do we really get a hint of GOD?s own frame of reference and perhaps this is why it ends with a very harsh remark ??.Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?? A little bit of thought would?ve led even those people back then to the frame of reference concept as there were many extremely intelligent greek philosophers even before them but they just decided to remain ignorant. GOD Bless! -
I think what the original poster is trying to say is why'd God create ANYTHING? What was the point? Why didn't God just leave Himself as the only thing in existance? He didn't need angels to do anything for Him, since He could just say "Be!" and it will be. He knowingly created Satan to rebel, so he can create humans, but the question is WHY. What was the point? Did God get lonely? Was He bored? Is He bound by something Himself...a need to create? Is He a Supreme Intelligence and Force, or is He just a Supreme Force? He has to be a Supreme Intelligence, if we accept the Qur'an, because we're required to bow to Him and refrain from putting up partners next to Him. It's also obvious that we're not the last of creation, and we may not have been the first. It says somewhere in the Qur'an that when this universe is destroyed and Judgement day passes, a new universe will be put in its place. So what is the damn point of all of this?
I can understand the proofs of the authenticity of the Qur'an, and the chronological events of history and religion till now...but I just don't understand the time when there was only God and nothing else. It kills me a bit inside, lol. xD
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Peace to all,
Fuhrer, my standard answer usually is, God was asked by the angels why he created us and he said, he knows whay you dont know, which is a perfectly acceptable answer to me, however, I also understand the human desire to question things and to learn for themselves. I dont think God was bored, he is self sufficient, but he is also loving and compassionate and merciful, which takes other forms of creation for him to share these qualities with, so even though he created angels and others, they only do what he says at all times, but have no free will. It seems that truth is one and has no quarrels with itself, and we are all one in God as part of the same spirit of God, however, God decided to split his creation into two realities and we become a part that was both divided and complete at the same time, the struggle was now within us since mankind was given free will, which even the mountains refused, which is matter,,,matter does only what it is told to do by God with its physical properties, hence they do not reason and rationalize, they just exist, we as humans can use our God given faculties to use matter for any purpose we want, we can make beautiful art or nuclear bombs, we can show the side of love and compassion or destroy each other with crimes and wars, so we are being tested by God, and he has given us believers an advantage and guidance, yet he has also allowed us to be tempted and misled, the choice is ours, its perfectly just. So, though God is testing us maybe he is also testing himself through us. I also know that this life is nothing but the temporary enjoyment of delusion and one day the perfect and eternal reality will become crystal clear to us all, and then we will have our answers, I get the sense one day soon we all be standing before our God saying" wow , it all makes perfect sense now" lets just try to be on the side of the righteous until then.
Kurt
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Dear Dime,
I think you missed my last post and still asking for explanation. Let me try again in a simple way. Please keep in mind that I am presenting my understanding so I have to give judgments according to my understanding. If you find me telling you wrong is only due to my understanding and not because it is a truth or a fact. So please don?t get it as personal attack.
Your assumptions are wrong in many ways due to your misunderstandings regarding His system.I think basic problem may be that you are assuming that GOD has decided the outcome of everything in this world and the hereafter.
If you consider that he makes or does everything and he knows what we will do then it is an assumption by you. I have not found any verse telling us this fact. The verses where God tells us that the outcome of these worldly affairs is according to his will and he makes those things happen then this is understandable but if you assume from these kinds of verses that he has decided the outcome of the hereafter too then that is the point where the real mess begins.
Brother according to my understanding this is quite incorrect assumption on your part. If you know the basic reason of creation of human, this world and all what is in it is then it becomes crystal clear. The reason according to my understanding is to test us. If this all is to test us then it is a matter of simple commonsense that all the outcomes within this worldly life will be part of the test in other words prior decisions made by the examiner. For example if two people make a same kind of store at the same corner of a same street you will observe that number of customers will not be same. What do you think Why is that so? There is not a single verse in Quran according to my knowledge which tells that outcome of the hereafter (whatever it is) is already determined by God. In my understanding out come of the hereafter has not been decided by him but he decides it according to our deeds.
Now the other problem i see is the misunderstanding of the concept of death. There is no such thing as death in a sense we see death i.e. end of life. This is no end of life but just end of one span of worldly life to check and dealt according to deeds at hand and resumes accordingly. Quran tells us that it is a continuous cycle till the day of yawma alqiyamati (halting or standing of time) taqoomu alssaAAatu (standing of the hour) or yaumuddin (systems day).
Here is the reason for the above understanding.
3055
Free_Minds
And the Day the Hour is established, the criminals will swear that they have remained only for an hour! Thus they were deluded.3056
Free_Minds
And those who were given knowledge and faith said "You have remained according to God's decree until the Day of Resurrection; so this is the Day of Resurrection, but you did not know."I hope that this will help.
Regards.
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Peace all
It seems that there is an assumption that God knows all the individual decisions each of us will make in this world. Is this an assumption we are all making? Is there anywhere in the quran that this is actually stated rather than it being an assumption on our part?
Is it not possible that God has placed limits on HImself as regards the decisions we make? I believe that He has created out of nothing & this is beyond our comprehension. However, with regard to our lives here, he has established laws by which everything operates. He does not transgress or hange these laws. What do you think?
I was once told that to say that God has placed restrictions on Himself is "shirk". My opinion is that to say God cannot place restrictions on HImself would more likely constitute "shirk". What do you all think?
Imraan
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Is there any answer yet,
this is creating a ton of doubt in my mind that I would prefer was not there... &I'll ask, as simply as I can.
If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
Peace Diem
At the moment i think this.
If God knows the outcome, then he probabely knows the ouctome of our contribution to his plan or something like that.Thus if God knows what happens with us in the end and God has chosen to go ahead by bringing us into being, then we are necessary in his plan.
For Example I plan on having a safe boxing match with someone. I know a certain material can provide good protection in this boxing match. I get the material and create some sort of helmet with it.
Just because i knew the outcome and the effects of the helmet, dosn't mean i shouldn't go ahead with making it. In this case the material was neccasary to make the helmet to meet the higher purpose of having a safe boxing match. Perhaps the outcome of our freewill and the hereafter is part a bigger picture that we are not able to comprehend.
Really sorry for the bad example but believe me i sat down for about 10 mins thinking of one.
Also do not forget that God is beyond your preception. A concept such as reason may not even apply to God.Don't let things which have elements that our beyond your preception bring doubt into your heart.
Think on the things you personally have experienced. Think on why your grew stronger in faith. You must have seen or gained some sort of knowledge.Does this question which you now ask out-weigh those things even though it's way beyond you abillity to judge this issue?
It's great that you ask such questions just don't suffer doubt. Remember everything and stay strong.peace
God bless -
If we do not know what God is, how can we discuss why "He" does this or that?
I completely agree
This is what i meant by beyond perception and how reason may not apply to God.