All Mighty God?
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Okay...
this is getting a bit off topic,
lets organize the major thoughts here,"We did not create the jinn and men except to worship us" [Surah adh-Dhariyyat, verse 56)
So relative to Allah, we were created in a means or a way in which Allah has chosen to manifest his attributes of creation, mercy, grace etc and he could have chosen another one. But relative to us as human beings, we know that our purpose is to worship Allah. As we said, Allah does not need our worship, a Allah didn?t need to create. When he created us to worship him, he didn?t create us, out of a need for our worship, because Allah has no needs
sun Gloru be to lord--Thanks for your explanation, I think so far this makes the most sense to me.
A good point that was brought up was that time is an illusion, there is no "passing" of time, time is the interval between an event occuring constantly
Lets say today I decide I am going to go shopping for apples tomorrow. So based on this God predicts that I am going to buy apples. When I get to the store the oranges look more delicious and I decide to buy them. Does this not mean that God was wrong about me buying apples? (astagfirallah &
From this we can extrapolate the fact that god exists outside of the binds of time and space.From what I understand so far.
- God created is because it is in his nature to create.
- God has no need to be worshipped because he doesnt need us
- God is not bound to his creation (time, space, and the other forces active and present in the universe)
Out of these three ideas I conclude that God created us because it is in his nature to create and not because he needs to be worshipped. Also, God exists "outside" of the laws of the universe because he is not subjec to his own creation.
Although these are all good ideas, this doesnt explain why God Almighty would create anything in the first place. I think we are back to square one brickwall-----If someone has more to add to this discussion please do so
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Is there any answer yet,
this is creating a ton of doubt in my mind that I would prefer was not there... &I'll ask, as simply as I can.
If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
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If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
Peace all
The outcome of God creations is known to him, and therefore, He created us.
And for the out come to be real, we had to go through the Free-Well experience.Salam
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Peace Diem,
The answer lies in panentheism. We were created (converted from an existence as pure energy/spirits to a material existence) with our own permission !
Before our creation we were existing as energy/spirits as a miniscule part of the One Whole. Our creation as a material existence in this material universe with free will was carried out with our informed consent. We let it happen to ourselves, knowing the consequences! God did it only after our permission after we were explained the risk of possibility of walking the wrong path and ending up in hell.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
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If we do not know what God is, how can we discuss why "He" does this or that?
Peace Samia
I will pray for you to Know God as I and others did.
My first advise for you is to understand God's words as a simple and clear words, and not as a complected and puzzling words. And when you do, you will start to get to Know about Him. -
Peace Samia
I will pray for you to Know God as I and others did.
My first advise for you is to understand God's words as a simple and clear words, and not as a complected and puzzling words. And when you do, you will start to get to Know about Him.So, what is God? He gave parables for Himself and told us that He is unlike anything, and you come to tell me you know what He is? Typical, always claiming to know things but much a do about othing
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Peace Diem,
The answer lies in panentheism. We were created (converted from an existence as pure energy/spirits to a material existence) with our own permission !
Before our creation we were existing as energy/spirits as a miniscule part of the One Whole. Our creation as a material existence in this material universe with free will was carried out with our informed consent. We let it happen to ourselves, knowing the consequences! God did it only after our permission after we were explained the risk of possibility of walking the wrong path and ending up in hell.
3372 We have offered the trust to the heavens and the Earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were fearful of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant.
I've never quite looked him panentheism, but it sounds "theoretical", in that how do we know? I'm guessing its based on your interpretation of that Ayat.
Still waiting for an explanation to my question... brickwall
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Peace bro ?Arnold?,
Hope you're fine. Im not posting much yet but might so again in a few weeks. Anyways i wanted to comment on a point of yours.
It seems Allah has allowed us to have free will and for Him not to decide our decisions, this means He has voluntarely limited His control on our destiny by everytime creating options, and although He knows we are gonna take, He had not decided that before we took it as we decide our own development. That is His true rahma.
JK- I?ve been thinking about this too BUT it is somewhat problematic and I?ll point out why. If GOD does not control our destiny or even if He merely limited His control on our destiny then how is it possible that He?s accurately able to control our life and death which is clearly mentioned in the Quran and that nobody dies EXCEPT at an appointed time by Him
No one dies except by GOD's leave, at a predetermined time?
Now if so many people make a choice to kill certain people or so many people make mistakes due to which other?s lives are put in danger and there?s a high chance of them dying, then this would mean in all those or at least in most of such cases GOD would have to INTERVENE in the universe in order to save those lives because their fixed time had not yet come and this is against what we both agreed upon earlier i.e. GOD?s System being fixed and never changing. Also that free will only exists in our frame of reference and not in GOD?s is proven by the following Quranic verses
I?ll first quote the latter verse
Anything good that happens to you is from GOD, and anything bad that happens to you is from you?
HOWEVER the previous verse says
Wherever you are, death will catch up with you, even if you live in formidable castles. When something good happens to them, they say, "This is from GOD," and when something bad afflicts them, they blame you. Say, "Everything comes from GOD." Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?
Indeed I had trouble understanding these verses and was almost forced to admit to myself that this is a contradiction YET it is absolutely logical and true if we consider the relative frame of reference argument I?ve just made. Hence 479 is relative to us humans whilst 478 makes it clear that from GOD?s pt of reference EVERYTHING IS PLANNED AND EVERYTHING IS GOOD. Technically we can never speak of GOD wronging anyone as well since the term ?wrong? itself ONLY MAKES SENSE IN OUR RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE AND NEVER FROM THAT OF GOD?S as is also made clear in many verses
...But He never misleads thereby except the wicked,
who violate GOD's covenant after pledging to uphold it, sever what GOD has commanded to be joined, and commit evil. These are the losers.
...GOD never wronged them; it is they who wronged themselves.
We never wronged them; they wronged their own souls?
...GOD is not the One who wronged them; they are the ones who wronged their own souls.
Hence the most logical conclusion I?ve reached now is that free will/choice only exists in OUR RELATIVE FRAME OF REFERENCE and everything we know as evil is relative too and there is NO ABSOLUTE EVIL. Thus even what is known to us as evil in our relative frame of reference ultimately still belongs to GOD?s Plan and serves a useful/beneficial purpose which we may or may not be aware off at any point in time in this universe. Hence the terms ?mislead, wringed, wicked? have no meaning from GOD?s frame of reference. YET we see in the above verses GOD putting Himself in our frame of reference and thus clarifying the issue to us which is a necessity for the causal continuum of our universe. Only in 478 do we really get a hint of GOD?s own frame of reference and perhaps this is why it ends with a very harsh remark ??.Why do these people misunderstand almost everything?? A little bit of thought would?ve led even those people back then to the frame of reference concept as there were many extremely intelligent greek philosophers even before them but they just decided to remain ignorant. GOD Bless! -
I think what the original poster is trying to say is why'd God create ANYTHING? What was the point? Why didn't God just leave Himself as the only thing in existance? He didn't need angels to do anything for Him, since He could just say "Be!" and it will be. He knowingly created Satan to rebel, so he can create humans, but the question is WHY. What was the point? Did God get lonely? Was He bored? Is He bound by something Himself...a need to create? Is He a Supreme Intelligence and Force, or is He just a Supreme Force? He has to be a Supreme Intelligence, if we accept the Qur'an, because we're required to bow to Him and refrain from putting up partners next to Him. It's also obvious that we're not the last of creation, and we may not have been the first. It says somewhere in the Qur'an that when this universe is destroyed and Judgement day passes, a new universe will be put in its place. So what is the damn point of all of this?
I can understand the proofs of the authenticity of the Qur'an, and the chronological events of history and religion till now...but I just don't understand the time when there was only God and nothing else. It kills me a bit inside, lol. xD
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Peace to all,
Fuhrer, my standard answer usually is, God was asked by the angels why he created us and he said, he knows whay you dont know, which is a perfectly acceptable answer to me, however, I also understand the human desire to question things and to learn for themselves. I dont think God was bored, he is self sufficient, but he is also loving and compassionate and merciful, which takes other forms of creation for him to share these qualities with, so even though he created angels and others, they only do what he says at all times, but have no free will. It seems that truth is one and has no quarrels with itself, and we are all one in God as part of the same spirit of God, however, God decided to split his creation into two realities and we become a part that was both divided and complete at the same time, the struggle was now within us since mankind was given free will, which even the mountains refused, which is matter,,,matter does only what it is told to do by God with its physical properties, hence they do not reason and rationalize, they just exist, we as humans can use our God given faculties to use matter for any purpose we want, we can make beautiful art or nuclear bombs, we can show the side of love and compassion or destroy each other with crimes and wars, so we are being tested by God, and he has given us believers an advantage and guidance, yet he has also allowed us to be tempted and misled, the choice is ours, its perfectly just. So, though God is testing us maybe he is also testing himself through us. I also know that this life is nothing but the temporary enjoyment of delusion and one day the perfect and eternal reality will become crystal clear to us all, and then we will have our answers, I get the sense one day soon we all be standing before our God saying" wow , it all makes perfect sense now" lets just try to be on the side of the righteous until then.
Kurt
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Dear Dime,
I think you missed my last post and still asking for explanation. Let me try again in a simple way. Please keep in mind that I am presenting my understanding so I have to give judgments according to my understanding. If you find me telling you wrong is only due to my understanding and not because it is a truth or a fact. So please don?t get it as personal attack.
Your assumptions are wrong in many ways due to your misunderstandings regarding His system.I think basic problem may be that you are assuming that GOD has decided the outcome of everything in this world and the hereafter.
If you consider that he makes or does everything and he knows what we will do then it is an assumption by you. I have not found any verse telling us this fact. The verses where God tells us that the outcome of these worldly affairs is according to his will and he makes those things happen then this is understandable but if you assume from these kinds of verses that he has decided the outcome of the hereafter too then that is the point where the real mess begins.
Brother according to my understanding this is quite incorrect assumption on your part. If you know the basic reason of creation of human, this world and all what is in it is then it becomes crystal clear. The reason according to my understanding is to test us. If this all is to test us then it is a matter of simple commonsense that all the outcomes within this worldly life will be part of the test in other words prior decisions made by the examiner. For example if two people make a same kind of store at the same corner of a same street you will observe that number of customers will not be same. What do you think Why is that so? There is not a single verse in Quran according to my knowledge which tells that outcome of the hereafter (whatever it is) is already determined by God. In my understanding out come of the hereafter has not been decided by him but he decides it according to our deeds.
Now the other problem i see is the misunderstanding of the concept of death. There is no such thing as death in a sense we see death i.e. end of life. This is no end of life but just end of one span of worldly life to check and dealt according to deeds at hand and resumes accordingly. Quran tells us that it is a continuous cycle till the day of yawma alqiyamati (halting or standing of time) taqoomu alssaAAatu (standing of the hour) or yaumuddin (systems day).
Here is the reason for the above understanding.
3055
Free_Minds
And the Day the Hour is established, the criminals will swear that they have remained only for an hour! Thus they were deluded.3056
Free_Minds
And those who were given knowledge and faith said "You have remained according to God's decree until the Day of Resurrection; so this is the Day of Resurrection, but you did not know."I hope that this will help.
Regards.
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Peace all
It seems that there is an assumption that God knows all the individual decisions each of us will make in this world. Is this an assumption we are all making? Is there anywhere in the quran that this is actually stated rather than it being an assumption on our part?
Is it not possible that God has placed limits on HImself as regards the decisions we make? I believe that He has created out of nothing & this is beyond our comprehension. However, with regard to our lives here, he has established laws by which everything operates. He does not transgress or hange these laws. What do you think?
I was once told that to say that God has placed restrictions on Himself is "shirk". My opinion is that to say God cannot place restrictions on HImself would more likely constitute "shirk". What do you all think?
Imraan
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Is there any answer yet,
this is creating a ton of doubt in my mind that I would prefer was not there... &I'll ask, as simply as I can.
If God is omniscient, what is the need to create humans in the first place because if God is omniscient, God would have known the outcome of his creation.
Peace Diem
At the moment i think this.
If God knows the outcome, then he probabely knows the ouctome of our contribution to his plan or something like that.Thus if God knows what happens with us in the end and God has chosen to go ahead by bringing us into being, then we are necessary in his plan.
For Example I plan on having a safe boxing match with someone. I know a certain material can provide good protection in this boxing match. I get the material and create some sort of helmet with it.
Just because i knew the outcome and the effects of the helmet, dosn't mean i shouldn't go ahead with making it. In this case the material was neccasary to make the helmet to meet the higher purpose of having a safe boxing match. Perhaps the outcome of our freewill and the hereafter is part a bigger picture that we are not able to comprehend.
Really sorry for the bad example but believe me i sat down for about 10 mins thinking of one.
Also do not forget that God is beyond your preception. A concept such as reason may not even apply to God.Don't let things which have elements that our beyond your preception bring doubt into your heart.
Think on the things you personally have experienced. Think on why your grew stronger in faith. You must have seen or gained some sort of knowledge.Does this question which you now ask out-weigh those things even though it's way beyond you abillity to judge this issue?
It's great that you ask such questions just don't suffer doubt. Remember everything and stay strong.peace
God bless -
If we do not know what God is, how can we discuss why "He" does this or that?
I completely agree
This is what i meant by beyond perception and how reason may not apply to God. -
Dear Fuhrer,
The posted translation is incorrect. the word used in this verse is
Arabic - English
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era , epoch , period , time , ageconfined to bed , be chronically ill , chronically ill , feeble , feckless , effete , disabled , unsound
Correct translation according to my understanding is
every man's age(era) actions are attached to his neck, and We will bring forth to him on the resurrection day a book in which he will find wide open
Here are few other translations
1713
Literal And every human/mankind We obliged/compelled him his action/anger in his neck (made himresponsible), and We bring out/make emerge for him (on) the Resurrection Day a Book/judgment he finds it spread/publicized .
Free_Minds And We have attached to every person's neck his deeds, and We bring forth for him a record on the Day of Resurrection which he will find on display.
Khalifa We have recorded the fate of every human being; it is tied to his neck. On the Day of Resurrection we will hand him a record that is accessible.
Yusuf_Ali Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck On the Day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll, which he will see spread open.
Shakir And We have made every man's actions to cling to his neck, and We will bring forth to him on the resurrection day a book which he will find wide open
Pickthal And every man's augury have We fastened to his own neck, and We shall bring forth for him on the Day of Resurrection a book which he will find wide open.
QXP All deeds of the humans are instantly recorded on their "Self", as if the record book is fastened to their own necks. And We shall bring forth this record book wide open to them on the Day of Resurrection.
I hope now it will become clear.
Regards.
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The verses where God tells us that the outcome of these worldly affairs is according to his will and he makes those things happen then this is understandable but if you assume from these kinds of verses that he has decided the outcome of the hereafter too then that is the point where the real mess begins.
I'm sorry but this makes no sense what so ever. You said that God tells us that everything happens according to his will and your also saying that he doesn't decide the outcome. Maybe you could explain it better. brickwall
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I'm sorry but this makes no sense what so ever. You said that God tells us that everything happens according to his will and your also saying that he doesn't decide the outcome. Maybe you could explain it better.
Peace Diem,
The idea you want ''a more explanation of'' is a paradox and false. God doesn't know what u will do tomorrow. He may know ur potential choices but He Doesn't know what you will choose. God is still omniscient because what will u do is not a THING yet cuz there is no such thing as time travel cuz there is no such thing as time just changes in matter. So when a change occurs in the universe or u do something God will be the first to know and so will be recorded with Him. God can forecast events just like the weather but your actions is a bit unpredictable so you will be judged for it.
Peace,
Rami.