The true Islam
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Peace Wakas,
You did not correct/clarify your statement about brother Ayman. Please do so immeditately.
What statement about Ayman? I only said what he said in the topic YOU posted for me to reference
The night is merged into the day (for example, see 2261). Hence, night starts at sunset. Therefore, the near part of the night (a="zulufan mina allayli" is between sunset (the beginning of night) and the total darkness of the night (b="ghasaqi allayli".
Those two times (a) and (b) are not equivalent. (a) comes before (b).
the near part of the night = sunset----->the darkness of the night
So, what's wrong with me referencing Ayman's words? I don't see where he has come and objected to it, so I don't see what the problem is...
Now, back to the topic of discussion
To remind that it is an extra. I'm sure anyone can relate that if one feels God says something is an extra, some will try to do so much of it that it can become detrimental to other things.
So, salaat becomes detrimental? Why do you suppose the Quran says
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day, and during the near parts of the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. (11114)
I don't think the salaat can become detrimental to us since it is specifically regarded as one of the "righteous works" that "wipe out the evil works". It's regarded as "extra" because it is difficult to maintain, and God knows some people will not be able to keep up (7320).
Thanks for indirectly admitting that your previous statements of the times and time ranges being explained were incorrect. Perhaps you do not see the need for an end point, but The Quran does, hence one for both. According to you, end point for one, not for the other.... that is up to you.
Well, we know the Quran gives starting points for the salaat, so this is not in question? But you're saying the Quran gives "end points" for all the salaat? Can you please show some evidence of this? The other topic you referenced doesn't say this at all. Where are these "end points" for all the salaat?
Thanks for admitting that in your understanding the use of "near" has no clear reference and the meaning has to be assumed. Where's the precision in that?
Has to be assumed? If something is considered "near" something, this is attributing "closeness". This is not assumed. If the passage speaks about the "morning, evening, and NEAR PART of the night", it's referencing the part of the night nearest to the evening. Is this difficult to understand?
I have no interest in discussing this issue further unless new evidence is brought to the table.
I should've known this response was coming... If you don't wish to discuss this, fine; nobody can force you to do so. Your participation or absence in this discussion is completely up to you...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Truthseeker,
Following are the FATAL FLAWS in your arguments
NONE of these are "fatal flaws", they are just your misunderstandings of my posts...
FATAL FLAW # 1
Qur'anic daytime (nahaar) has 3 or more edges, not 2 as per YOUR CONJECTURE WHICH VIOLATES QUR'ANIC EVIDENCE.
20130 So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and during the night glorify; and at VARIOUS EDGES/"ATRAAF" OF THE DAYTIME perhaps you may be content.
Here CLEARLY, the word "atraaf"/"3 or more edges" has been used for "nahaar"/daytime, which means DAYTIME HAS 3 OR MORE EDGES AND NOT 2 AS PER YOUR CONJECTURE.
This is WRONG. 20130 is speaking of TWO edges of the day, and the direct and literal translation would be
Therefore, be patient in the face of their sayings, and praise and glorify your Lord before sunrise and before sunset. And during the night glorify Him, and at BOTH ENDS/EDGES of the day, that you may be satisfied. (20130)
I don't know where you got the word "various" from, but this is incorrect. This pretty much shatters your whole "FIRST FATAL FLAW" theory...
FATAL FLAW # 2
If the "wa" in 11114 is a "wa" of separation, then according to your theory we are being asked to uphold salaat during "zulafan min al-layl"/3 or more near parts of the night SEPARATE from daytime. Two implications of this
- Near what? Your theory does not answer this question and creates CONTRADICTION with 12111
This alleged "FATAL FLAW" is ridiculous. Do you think the "near parts of/during the night" are DURING the daytime? If the Quran was putting them together in a descriptive form, it would not have the word "wa"/and between them. Please show me somewhere else in the Quran where "wa" refers to a description instead of "and"...
- We are being asked to uphold salaat at least 3 times at night, so the total will be 2 during daytime/nahaar and 3 during night/layl for a total of 5 times in 24 hours. This contradicts your assumption of only 3 salaats in 24 hours.
I didn't say this at all, and like I said, this is your misunderstanding of my posts. I think ONE of those three periods being upheld is observance of the night salaat. Therefore, salaat observance at (1) evening, (2) night, and (3) morning equals THREE salaat periods, not two or five.
FATAL FLAW #3
In 2238, "salawaat" already includes all salaats, so if "salaat al-wusta" is an individual salaat then it would already be included in "salawaat" and hence totally redundant and illogical.
I see this is part of your conjecture. The word "salawaat" is used directly before "salaat al wusta". However, "salawaat" refers to THREE OR MORE periods, not two.
The "salawaat" in 2238 is mentioned generally and not in the context of one day and therefore refers to all the salaats of one's lifetime, which qualifies as "3 or more". Why do you take it as referring to only one day's salaats, and based on what qur'anic evidence?
The only possible explanation is that 2238 is commanding us to protect/maintain all the salaats of our lifetime and observe each salaat in the best/balanced manner.
This is also WRONG. The Quran makes several mentions of all the "salawaat" in a person's lifetime, and in these verse, the general word (i.e. "salaat" is used, not the plural form. This is used throughout the rest of the reading to refer to the entire salaat during one's life or the general communion of God's people. So, if "salawaat" is used to refer to all the periods during one's lifetime, why isn't this also used in the other verses? Also, since "salaat al wusta" is referred to separately from the other "salawaat", it gives in the impression of speciality, which is also shown by the Quran calling it "extra" (1779). It's special significance is explained in 7320.
Your alleged "FATAL FLAW" theories are not supported by the Quran.
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace AB,
Thanks for indirectly admitting you quoted brother Ayman incorrectly.
He actually said, and I quote "the near part of the night = sunset----->the darkness of the night"
It is revealing in how you only made bold the part that matched your claims, ignoring the rest. Misleading, and at worst, dishonest.
There is nothing wrong with quoting someone or saying someone else said XYZ as long as it is accurate. You were inaccurate, simple.
peace t,
Thanks for adding fatal flaws 1 and 2 to the evidence table.
The only possible explanation is that 2238 is commanding us to protect/maintain all the salaats of our lifetime and observe each salaat in the best/balanced manner.
I agree that the plural "salawat" in this verse is discussing general oaths/bonds (like in chapter 9) but when it says "salat al wusta", it is referring to upholding the most balanced/just bond, and as we all know, this is to God's system via The Quran, which then links perfectly into 2239.
Perfect simplicity.
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Peace Wakas,
Thanks for indirectly admitting you quoted brother Ayman incorrectly.
He actually said, and I quote "the near part of the night = sunset----->the darkness of the night"
It is revealing in how you only made bold the part that matched your claims, ignoring the rest. Misleading, and at worst, dishonest.
There is nothing wrong with quoting someone or saying someone else said XYZ as long as it is accurate. You were inaccurate, simple.
So, you're saying that Brother Ayman DIDN'T say that the "zulufan min allayl" is the sunset? Okay, whatever you say... Maybe I misread him, as I'm obviously continuing to do... It looks like he's saying that "zulufan min allayl" IS sunset, and it is before the "darkness of the night" period, showing that the two are separate and not the same. Regardless, though, this topic isn't about Brother Ayman; it's about the salaat. If you wish to discuss Ayman, then maybe we can come together and make a topic about him... Now, back to the topic of discussion...
The "near part" of the night must actually be part of the night, and this is the only way it can be interpreted. It has to refer to the beginning or ending stages of the night, not the evening, since the evening period is ALREADY MENTIONED. Why would the verse say "the evening AND the evening"? This would make absolutely no sense, and it would be ridiculously redundant. That would be like the scripture saying, "Maintain the morning salaat at sunrise AND the salaat at dawn..." This is redundance at best because two different words are being used to describe the same time period. The two forms are also not being used as a description because the word "AND" is used to separate them. Since the word "near"/zulfa is used, it is most likely referring to a time near (or close to) the morning or the evening, which can still be considered part of the "night" (i.e. after evening and before morning)...
I agree that the plural "salawat" in this verse is discussing general oaths/bonds (like in chapter 9) but when it says "salat al wusta", it is referring to upholding the most balanced/just bond, and as we all know, this is to God's system via The Quran, which then links perfectly into 2239.
And do you also think it makes sense to say
"Uphold 'all the salawaat during your lifetime', (AND/ESPECIALLY) the best/most balanced salaat"?
What kind of sense would this make? Why wouldn't the "best salaat" be a part of the salaat done throughout a person's life? Do you think it's talking about salaat done in the hereafter? Obviously that's not what the verse is talking about. It clearly says, "hafezu ala al-salawaat", which means to persevere in MORE THAN TWO salaat. However, in other verses, the words are, "hafezu ala al-salaat", which refers to salaat in a general sense, or speaking of all the salaat observances throughout a person's lifetime. If there were only TWO salaat observances during a daily period, the verse would say "al-salatayn", meaning the TWO prayers/salaat observances. Now, hypothetically, if "al-salaat al-wusta" is referring to the "best"/most balanced prayer, it begs the question WHICH ONE IS THE BEST/MOST BALANCED?
Even if you base your opinion as there being TWO MANDATORY daily salaat observances and ONE OPTIONAL daily salaat observance (1779), this still means there are more than TWO salaat during one daily period; there are THREE. Now, if you wish to uphold views that morning and evening are BETTER than the other one, then that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. However, I choose not to hold a personal preference regarding salaat observances dedicated to God ALONE. The "wusta"/middle prayer is directly between the other two prayers, and this could cause misinterpretations regarding when this would be (i.e. morning--->MIDDLE--->evening, or evening--->MIDDLE--->morning), and people wouldn't know whether the salaat observance occurs at noon or at midnight. Allah knows this, though, and that's why the Quran clarifies this in 7320, showing that the salaat would occur during the night instead of at noon.
Peace,
Ahmad
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I see that you are referring 11.114
All three times are mentioned here
Edges of the day = beginning and middle prayer,
Night = evening prayerPlease look up my post, and see that it is the same times, referred throughout the Quran.
Peace
Still in 11114 are only two prayers. The two ends of the day wich is sun up and sun down and then first part of the night wich is included in the sun down prayer wich is called Isha. It is only an explanation on when we should do the prayer and the sun down + first part of night= Isha. The other one if Fajr = last part of the nigh + sun up.Peace
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Peace hpesc,
What makes you think this is the "true" Islam? True Islam is total submission to Allah, and it is worship to Him alone in true monotheism... And if there are only 2 prayers, then what is the "wusta"/middle/best prayer (223? That same verse mentions observing the "salawat", which refers to MORE THAN TWO prayers. So, how can you say there are only two? Where is your evidence to support this?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
This verse 2238 is a good verse and the meaning of it you maybe think that its a third prayer but its not. The meaning of this verse is to be careful with the prayers and then it refers to an already existing prayer wich is located between the day (nahar) and night(layl) wich is Isha. In the Quran 1 yaom contain nahar and layl and the layl is the covering of the nahar and in the middle of the yaom is Isha wich is wasat.Peace
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Peace Wakas,
I appreciate your guidance on this issue, but I've also thoroughly researched this issue, and I've seen the many arguments regarding Salaat on this forum. All of them fail to accurately acknowledge the study of the Quran/prayer/connection/salaat at NIGHT, which is described in 11114.
You shall observe the Salaat at both ends of the day, and during the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take heed. (11114)
Now, even though this can be retranslated (or mistranslated) to refer to the morning and evening Salaat only, 1779 is clearly talking about a different one during the night. Since this mentions "extra credit/endeavor" (also translated as "beyond the call of duty" Salaat, this is possibly the "middle"/best Salaat mentioned in 2238. Most of the people who agree with the 2 Salaat theory have not thoroughly investigated it; some have considered it, but others only choose to agree with the majority, and this is improper.
If you obey the majority of people on earth, they will divert you from the path of God. They follow only conjecture; they only guess. (6116)
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
There are only two prayers per day (yaom). See my earlier posts in this thread for my answers.Peace
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If there was two, which days are you supposed to pray say, morning, sunset. And which, morning, evening, or sunset, evening? These are the times referred, when only 2 prayers are mentioned. A theory could be that these times were referred, because one of the times had just occured, at the time of revelation. Or some similar reason. In any case the logics of two prayers, is extremely weak.
Peace
I don't understand what you mean.Peace
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Peace hpesc.
The prayers, are sometimes referred at different times. Sometimes, morning, midday,
The time of revelation or recitation, might also have been a time of reciting the Quran.
(Reading from the Quran, also constitutes prayer).
So, when this had happened, God reminded them to keep up the other prayers.
For instance, if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the morning, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be end-of-day/sunset/midday, and evening.
Or if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the sunset, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be morning and evening.
And similarly for evening. -
Peace Hpesc,
This verse 2238 is a good verse and the meaning of it you maybe think that its a third prayer but its not. The meaning of this verse is to be careful with the prayers and then it refers to an already existing prayer wich is located between the day (nahar) and night(layl) wich is Isha. In the Quran 1 yaom contain nahar and layl and the layl is the covering of the nahar and in the middle of the yaom is Isha wich is wasat.
This still doesn't change the fact that the directive is to keep up the SALAWAAT (more than 2 salaat observances). So, because of the word "salawaat" used in this instance, it means there are at least 3 prayers/communions per day, not two. Since the "salawaat" is separate from the "salaatu al wusta", it means that this "wusta" observance has special significance, which is in harmony with other verses calling the salaat observance during the night "extra". Whether you regard this "salaatu al wusta"/middle communion as occurring at noon or at midnight, either time would occur directly between the other 2 (i.e. morning and evening), making them both directly in the "middle".
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Wakas,
No, actually, I've already taken into account the literal translation of 11114 (i.e. zulufann min al-layl). However, "during the night" is the most basic translation of it. And considering how the night Salaat is already explained in other verses, "during the night" would also probably be the most appropriate. The literal would probably be closer to the "near parts of the night". Still, if there were only two prayers, the verse would say, "You shall observe the Salaat at the ends of the day." However, it doesn't; it makes mention of another one.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
The meaning of sura 11 verse 114 is not to explain the nr of prayers but it is to explain when to prayer wich according to this verse will be sun up, sun down and first part of the night wich is connected to sun down and together they make the night prayer wich is called Isha in the Quran.Peace
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Peace Wakas,
In literally translating, by just saying, "And keep up the salaat at the edges of the day...", it's already providing a time range. The edges (or ends) of the daytime are (1) morning and (2) evening. These are two clear time frames to keep up the salaat. By placing, "...and parts of the night" afterwards, it's obviously talking about a time period separate from the other two.
Also, "edges of the day" and "adjacent parts of the night" would fit together in one mold, and this would make perfect sense, if "zulfa" meant "adjacent". But it doesn't mean "adjacent", it means "near" or "part of" something. Therefore, if the verse said the "zulfa" of the night, it would literally be speaking about a part of the night, most applied to the near/beginning/onsetting part of it. This would also apply to "zulufan", which is a plural actually designating THREE OR MORE. The "adjacent" parts of the night would fit with the edges of the day if both were forming one designated time period, namely 2 frames (i.e. morning and evening). However, since "zulufan" is speaking about THREE OR MORE, there's no way it can apply to the same two times unless these are only part of it's time frame (i.e. morning, evening, and part of the night). So, either way, "zulufann min al-layl" has to be speaking of a THIRD time frame to keep up the salaat.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
It explains to make 2 prayer at three times where two of these times are connected and together make the night prayer Isha.Peace
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Salaam Wakas
Often people leave this forum because of the stubbornness of some long term members, and therefore their opinion has no bearing on what is a conclusive answer. Salat performed on the day of gathering clearly shows that there is a middle prayer, which was performed in congregation once a week, unless the day of gathering was not weekly but, perhaps on the feast of Hajj. The case of Suleyman who missed the middle prayer due to his preoccupation with the horses, strongly indicates the existence of this prayer.
peacePeace
The night prayer Isha is in the middle of the day and the night.Peace
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Peace hpesc.
The prayers, are sometimes referred at different times. Sometimes, morning, midday,
The time of revelation or recitation, might also have been a time of reciting the Quran.
(Reading from the Quran, also constitutes prayer).
So, when this had happened, God reminded them to keep up the other prayers.
For instance, if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the morning, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be end-of-day/sunset/midday, and evening.
Or if one prayed, and had a session of reciting the Quran, in the sunset, God would remind them to keep up the other prayers of the day, aswell. Which would then be morning and evening.
And similarly for evening.Peace
Believe it or not but I still don't understand what you mean. From all the verses that include the actual word "salat" I only see two prayers who are named Fajr and Isha.Peace
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Peace Hpesc,
This still doesn't change the fact that the directive is to keep up the SALAWAAT (more than 2 salaat observances). So, because of the word "salawaat" used in this instance, it means there are at least 3 prayers/communions per day, not two. Since the "salawaat" is separate from the "salaatu al wusta", it means that this "wusta" observance has special significance, which is in harmony with other verses calling the salaat observance during the night "extra". Whether you regard this "salaatu al wusta"/middle communion as occurring at noon or at midnight, either time would occur directly between the other 2 (i.e. morning and evening), making them both directly in the "middle".
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
You interpretation is wrong. When it is said in the Quran "Be careful of your prayers" its not meant only to be careful of your two prayers or three prayer per day. It is meant in generally to be careful of prayers in generally every day of your life wich might mean 60000 prayers or more ore less.
Also wusta is simply Isha being between the day (nahar) and the night (layl)Peace
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Peace
Believe it or not but I still don't understand what you mean. From all the verses that include the actual word "salat" I only see two prayers who are named Fajr and Isha.Peace
Ok, but I think it's quite probable, from the poetical build of the Quran, that "praise" also about prayer. And probably "glorify" aswell.
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Peace Hpesc,
You interpretation is wrong. When it is said in the Quran "Be careful of your prayers" its not meant only to be careful of your two prayers or three prayer per day. It is meant in generally to be careful of prayers in generally every day of your life wich might mean 60000 prayers or more ore less.
So, you also believe that "salawaat" is referring to all the salaat observances done in one's life? ) I've already explained how this is completely illogical. Look throughout the Qur'an where the salaat observances throughout one's entire life are mentioned, and I GUARANTEE they don't say, "Uphold the salawaat..." Why do you think that is? hmm Throughout the scriptures, when the Qur'an refers to our general salaat (i.e. throughout our lifetime), it simply uses the general term "salaat", not "salawaat" (THREE OR MORE).
Those who believe in the unseen and they keep up the communions/SALAAT and what we provide for them they spend. (23)
And seek support through patience and the communions/SALAAT; and it is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble. (245)
And keep up the communions/SALAAT and give the zakat and what you advance to yourselves in goodness. You will find it at Allah. Allah is watching what you do. (2110)
And those who hold fast the book, and keep up the communions/SALAAT. So we do not waste the reward of the righteous. (7170)
These verses are obviously not speaking about ONE salaat observance, they are speaking about general salaat (i.e. throughout one's lifetime). The word "salaat" (singular) is used to describe our general communion throughout our lifetime, and therefore, "salawaat" (plural) is referring to our daily salaat observances. If this number was two, it would instruct us to keep up the "salaatayn"/TWO COMMUNIONS. Instead, it says "salawaat"/THREE OR MORE COMMUNIONS, meaning there are obviously more than two salaat observances per day.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ok, but I think it's quite probable, from the poetical build of the Quran, that "praise" also about prayer. And probably "glorify" aswell.
Peace
No. Praise God you can do whenever and not washed but prayer is only appointed times when you must be washed before it.Peace
