The true Islam
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Assalaam Alaikum
Im not sure where this individual gets the interpretation that 'Salat' is 'singular' in in the Quran.
In the references given, 2.3, 2.45, 2.110 & 7.170 Salata is plural.
Salata
Is a Irregular Plural Noun, the root pattern Sad-Lam-Waw has been 'broken' with the tarmubutah
Salata is grammatically Singular but semantically Plural
The following are SINGULAR references to Salah
So he did not verify it / saddaqa and did not SALLA / PRAY.
salla (Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) someone prayed
salli ( Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) You pray
yusalli (Singular, Verbal Form II, Imperfect) He is prayingPLURAL reference to Salah
They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.
Al-Baqarah 2.238] Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS
salawatun / salawati(Plural Noun, Used in Nominative & Genitive Case) Prayers, Blessings
salaatayn?, I dont believe thats even a word.
Peace
I don't know who you are adressing but I know at least that I never said that salat in the Quran is singular.
Both salat and salawat can be used as in generally.Peace
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Peace MTR,
C'mon, brother... I don't understand why you're putting these out there. These have absolutely nothing to do with what we're talking about. The words "salaat" and "salaata" are singular, no matter what dialect you place them in. The only time this is not the case is when an unspecific absolute is mentioned, and in these cases, "salaat" can be used as a generalized plural. The mentions of "sallaa", "salli", and "yusalli" have no significance to this at all because they are SINGULAR VERBS. When we mention the concept of prayer and communion, we're talking about "salaat", a SINGULAR NOUN that can also be used as a GENERALIZED PLURAL NOUN.
This literally says
Upon them are "salawaat"/prayers from their Lord, and a kindness, and they are the guided ones. (The use of this reference to "salawaat" is often interpreted as blessings.)
This is completely different from
Those who believe in the unseen and they keep up the SALAAT and what we provide for them they spend. (23)
In this case, "salaat" is clearly a generalized plural noun, referring to general salaat, not one specific salaat. Even in the example you mentioned (223, it says for us to keep up "alsalawaat alsalaat alwusta". So, in this case, as specified, the word "salaat" in this case is referring to ONE SPECIFIC SALAAT OBSERVANCE. So, yes, the basic word "salaat" is singular, not plural. And since "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to one specific salaat observance in one day, it is only logical that the reference to "salawaat" (plural) is also referring to a number of salaat observances within the same day as "alsalaat alwusta".
Yes, "salaatayn" refers to TWO salaat observances. The breakdown of the word "salaat" in number is
- salaat = one, generalized plural (i.e. "keep the prayers"
- salaatayn = two
- salawaat = three or more
The word "salaatayn" is not mentioned in the Qur'an because the scriptures admonish us to observe more than two salaat observances per day. Instead, the word "salawaat" is used because we are told to observe three or more salaat per day.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
What you are saying here is that salawat is meant more than two prayers and in less than i day. Both are wrong. Salawat is in generally meaning here and it says nothing about per day.Peace
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Assalaam Alaikum @hpesc
'general meaning'....
salawatun / salawati (Plural Noun, Used in Nominative & Genitive Case) Prayers, Blessings ; Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 320 (sala)
@hpesc Im not sure why you are so fixated on the word 'day'. Salat is performed within a 24 hour period, which equates to a day.
Its 'plural', because we perform any number of Salah throughout the 24 hour period, Salawat denotes the PLACES of Salah, we can perform ANY number of Salah in various places...
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Assalaam Alaikum @hpesc
'general meaning'....
salawatun / salawati (Plural Noun, Used in Nominative & Genitive Case) Prayers, Blessings ; Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 320 (sala)
@hpesc Im not sure why you are so fixated on the word 'day'. Salat is performed within a 24 hour period, which equates to a day.
Its 'plural', because we perform any number of Salah throughout the 24 hour period, Salawat denotes the PLACES of Salah, we can perform ANY number of Salah in various places...
Peace
It was not me who was fixated with the word day. It was Ahmad Bilal who said it meant per day and I disagree since I only preach to follow what is says without adding or erasing and it doesnt say per day. It only say salawat wich is meaning in generally.
It is good to be firm with these things since since the day the Gospel arrived until now they invented Jesus to be the son of God and from the Quran until now they invented the hadith with 5 prayers and other inventions. The original Hanif Islam is according to the Quran without difficulties. An easy religion that is. Satan managed to help people to change the Torah and then the Gospel and then when the Quran came and he couldnt help people to change the Quran because its protected to stay truthful so then Satan invented the so called hadith.Peace
Peace
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Peace Hpesc,
If you want to specify the nr of salat you say even in arabic 1, two or three and if not specified then its in general just like salawat. There is no specified nr in salawat unless you specify if with a nr. The same rule for trust and boy. I think you don't know arabc good. Maybe because you are non arab. If I beat twice a day and someone want to say be carefule with the beating he would say to me intibi minal darbat and not darbatayn. This is plain arabic just as was the Quran sent with.
I know Arabic pretty well, and I don't have to be an Arab to understand the language. The concept of general plural nouns is not based on Arabic language at all; it's a system used in ALL languages. Just as you pointed out, the proper statement would be "intibi minal darbat". Specifically saying "two beatings" would be unnecessary, since "darbat" is both a singular and a general plural noun. This is the case in all languages. A plural noun is not used as a general plural; in almost all case, a general plural noun is SINGULAR. This is why I said this
If it's speaking about a specific number of salaat observances within a given period of time, it would use the pluralized form (i.e. "salaatayn", "salawaat", "salaat". That itself shows that the singular form (i.e. "salaat" can also be used as the general plural form, and it's used this way throughout the Qur'an.
This is not just the case with the Qur'an; it's the case in basic language. If "salaat" is singular and "salawaat" is plural, then the general plural is also singular (i.e. "salaat". Maybe your being an Arab makes you more ignorant of this fact, since you obviously feel you have all the answers... ) I challenge you to do some research on what the Qur'an means by these passages
We revealed to Musa and his brother, "Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and perform prayer (Salaat) and give good news to the believers." (1087)
They said, "Shu'ayb, do your prayers (Salaat) instruct you that we should abandon what our fathers worshipped or stop doing whatever we want to with our wealth? You are clearly the forbearing, the rightly-guided!" (1187)
Are these referring to observing ONE (SINGULAR) SALAAT? Or is this speaking about the general pluralized salaat, meaning throughout their lifetime? It even says of Jesus
"He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the prayers (Salaat) and give the alms for as long as I live." (1931)
In this passage, Jesus actually says that Jesus upheld the SALAAT (singular) for AS LONG AS HE LIVES, or throughout his lifetime. Clearly, this isn't speaking about one specific salaat observance; it's talking about regular, daily salaat observances throughout his life. This proves that salaat, in this case, is definately plural, not singular. Or am I wrong in interpreting this? Since you're a native Arabic speaker, you should know best... )
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Hpesc,
It was not me who was fixated with the word day. It was Ahmad Bilal who said it meant per day and I disagree since I only preach to follow what is says without adding or erasing and it doesnt say per day. It only say salawat wich is meaning in generally.
It doesn't say "salawaat" in general... Let's look at the passage in the Qur'an
You shall consistently observe the prayers ("salawaat", the middle prayer ("alsalaat alwusta", and devote yourselves to Allah. (223
Now, this emphasis on "salawaat" can't be general because if that was the case, then "salaat al-wusta" would be redundant. This shows a clear distinction between "salawaat" and "salaat al-wusta". When placing them side by side, even in translation, it is grammatically incorrect to say, "Observe the prayers throughout your life, especially the middle prayer..." unless both of them are general plurals or unless both of them are singular. Therefore, since the term "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to a distinct salaat observance in ONE DAY, then the term "salawaat" must also be referring to ONE DAY. Since "alsalaat alwusta" is expected to be observed DAILY, we must also observe the "salawaat" DAILY. This is basic grammar in all languages, including Arabic.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum @Ahmad
May I suggest you get a cursory understanding of Nominative and Genitive Case construct as it relates to Sura 2.238
Then lets talk.
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Peace MTR,
May I suggest you get a cursory understanding of Nominative and Genitive Case construct as it relates to Sura 2.238
Then lets talk.
rotfl Okay, guy... )
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Hpesc,
It doesn't say "salawaat" in general... Let's look at the passage in the Qur'an
You shall consistently observe the prayers ("salawaat", the middle prayer ("alsalaat alwusta", and devote yourselves to Allah. (223
Now, this emphasis on "salawaat" can't be general because if that was the case, then "salaat al-wusta" would be redundant. This shows a clear distinction between "salawaat" and "salaat al-wusta". When placing them side by side, even in translation, it is grammatically incorrect to say, "Observe the prayers throughout your life, especially the middle prayer..." unless both of them are general plurals or unless both of them are singular. Therefore, since the term "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to a distinct salaat observance in ONE DAY, then the term "salawaat" must also be referring to ONE DAY. Since "alsalaat alwusta" is expected to be observed DAILY, we must also observe the "salawaat" DAILY. This is basic grammar in all languages, including Arabic.
Peace,
Ahmad
Ahmad let me assist you, because you dont know what your talking about...
in the Genitive, meaning Salaawati / , plural noun, meaning "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat' 'governs' Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , plural noun meaning 'After Noon, Midday Salah", again in the Genitive
This is so simple, Salaawati / is the 'box' referencing ALL the Prayers with there respective timings, movements and places. Al-Salati Al-Wusta / is in the 'box' with the other Salah.
In addition, there is more than ONE 'After Noon' Salah, Asr, Maghrib & Isha are scheduled 'After Noon'!
Again, In those parts of the world where its daylight for 24 hours for 6 months, the 'plurality' of Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , would continue to sustain their scheduled Salah timings for Asr, Maghrib & Isha.
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Peace MTR,
in the Genitive, meaning Salaawati / , plural noun, meaning "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat' 'governs' Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , plural noun meaning 'After Noon, Midday Salah", again in the Genitive
This is so simple, Salaawati / is the 'box' referencing ALL the Prayers with there respective timings, movements and places. Al-Salati Al-Wusta / is in the 'box' with the other Salah.
In addition, there is more than ONE 'After Noon' Salah, Asr, Maghrib & Isha are scheduled 'After Noon'!
Again, In those parts of the world where its daylight for 24 hours for 6 months, the 'plurality' of Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , would continue to sustain their scheduled Salah timings for Asr, Maghrib & Isha.
hmm Again, I see that it is you who don't know what you're talking about, brother. Your theory would make a lot of sense if "wusta" actually meant midday, afternoon, or anything like that. Unfortuately for you, though, IT DOESN'T. The Arabic word "wusta" means "middle". So, "alsalaat alwusta" literally means MIDDLE PRAYER, not afternoon prayer, midday prayer, or anything like that. It ("wusta" means MIDDLE. In order for there to be a "middle" salaat, there must be at THREE SALAAT OBSERVANCES (based on an odd number). Plus, it would make sense if the "asr" or "maghrib" salaat observances were mentioned in the Qur'an as being in the "middle"; but unfortunately for you, THEY'RE NOT... Also, the word "salawaat" is the plural form of "salaat"; your statement that it means "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat" is completely false. You need to get rid of that Arabic dictionary, brother, seriously. It's misguiding you...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ahmad, stop 'frontin', your not that tight....I dont know what community your from in the States, but Im out on the Westside, we dont 'front', we are serious about ours, dont get it twisted, I can stretch you out, where you wont have any get back....I already asked you a basic question in another thread, you started scratchin your head and pullin at the back of your trousers....
alwusta midmost, middle most;occupy the middle position, AFTERNOON
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Edition page 1250Now write the publisher of Hans Wehr and tell them that you dont want 'wusta' to mean 'Afternoon'.
If you are successful I will take my Sarf lessons from you.
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Peace MTR,
I dont know what community your from in the States, but Im out on the Westside, we dont 'front', we are serious about ours, dont get it twisted, I can stretch you out, where you wont have any get back....I already asked you a basic question in another thread, you started scratchin your head and pullin at the back of your trousers....
alwusta midmost, middle most;occupy the middle position, AFTERNOON
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Edition page 1250Now write the publisher of Hans Wehr and tell them that you dont want 'wusta' to mean 'Afternoon'.
If you are successful I will take my Sarf lessons from you.
Wow... You've gotta be kidding me, joe. Throwing threats out while hiding behind a computer screen...? I guess the westside's really tough. You're probably from Idaho or Oregon, or somewhere like that... ) Anyway, nobody needs to look up Hans Wehr to know what the Arabic word "wusta" means; just ask anybody who speaks the Arabic language. In general greetings, "afternoon" is "masaa". In literal daily translation, "afternoon" is "asr". Trust me, dude, there's a big difference between "al-asr" and "al-wusta". One means "the afternoon", and the other means "the middle". Can you tell which one is which? I challenge you to look in any unbiased Arabic dictionary, and show me where "wusta" means "afternoon". In fact, ask any of the other Arabic speakers on this website, and ask them the meaning of "wusta". And like I said, you need to get rid of that false English/Arabic dictionary; it is seriously misleading you...
By the way, 2Pac is dead, and the Outlawz suck... rotfl
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Hpesc,
I know Arabic pretty well, and I don't have to be an Arab to understand the language. The concept of general plural nouns is not based on Arabic language at all; it's a system used in ALL languages. Just as you pointed out, the proper statement would be "intibi minal darbat". Specifically saying "two beatings" would be unnecessary, since "darbat" is both a singular and a general plural noun. This is the case in all languages. A plural noun is not used as a general plural; in almost all case, a general plural noun is SINGULAR. This is why I said this
This is not just the case with the Qur'an; it's the case in basic language. If "salaat" is singular and "salawaat" is plural, then the general plural is also singular (i.e. "salaat". Maybe your being an Arab makes you more ignorant of this fact, since you obviously feel you have all the answers... I challenge you to do some research on what the Qur'an means by these passages
We revealed to Musa and his brother, "Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses places of worship and perform prayer (Salaat) and give good news to the believers." (1087)
They said, "Shu'ayb, do your prayers (Salaat) instruct you that we should abandon what our fathers worshipped or stop doing whatever we want to with our wealth? You are clearly the forbearing, the rightly-guided!" (1187)
Are these referring to observing ONE (SINGULAR) SALAAT? Or is this speaking about the general pluralized salaat, meaning throughout their lifetime? It even says of Jesus
"He made me blessed wherever I go, and enjoined me to observe the prayers (Salaat) and give the alms for as long as I live." (1931)
In this passage, Jesus actually says that Jesus upheld the SALAAT (singular) for AS LONG AS HE LIVES, or throughout his lifetime. Clearly, this isn't speaking about one specific salaat observance; it's talking about regular, daily salaat observances throughout his life. This proves that salaat, in this case, is definately plural, not singular. Or am I wrong in interpreting this? Since you're a native Arabic speaker, you should know best...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Darbat is not singular. Darba or Darb is singular, darbatani is dual and darbat or in real arabic darabat is plural. And both plural and singular can be used in generally just like in the Quran. Salawat in the Quran is meaning in generally.Peace
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alwusta midmost, middle most;occupy the middle position, AFTERNOON
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Edition page 1250Hello,
The Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary is a dictionnary of modern written Arabic.
So, you can not deem it a reliable material for studying the Quran.Peace
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Peace Hpesc,
It doesn't say "salawaat" in general... Let's look at the passage in the Qur'an
You shall consistently observe the prayers ("salawaat", the middle prayer ("alsalaat alwusta", and devote yourselves to Allah. (223
Now, this emphasis on "salawaat" can't be general because if that was the case, then "salaat al-wusta" would be redundant. This shows a clear distinction between "salawaat" and "salaat al-wusta". When placing them side by side, even in translation, it is grammatically incorrect to say, "Observe the prayers throughout your life, especially the middle prayer..." unless both of them are general plurals or unless both of them are singular. Therefore, since the term "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to a distinct salaat observance in ONE DAY, then the term "salawaat" must also be referring to ONE DAY. Since "alsalaat alwusta" is expected to be observed DAILY, we must also observe the "salawaat" DAILY. This is basic grammar in all languages, including Arabic.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
I didnt say it says Salawat in generally. I said it says salawat and means in generally. It was you who said that it saying salawat per day.
In arabic you can say beware of dogs (kilab) and especially the black dog (kalb) without both of them have to be general plurals nor both of them singular just like in the Quran. Both salat and salawat can be used as in generally just like in the Quran.Peace
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Ahmad let me assist you, because you dont know what your talking about...
in the Genitive, meaning Salaawati / , plural noun, meaning "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat' 'governs' Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , plural noun meaning 'After Noon, Midday Salah", again in the Genitive
This is so simple, Salaawati / is the 'box' referencing ALL the Prayers with there respective timings, movements and places. Al-Salati Al-Wusta / is in the 'box' with the other Salah.
In addition, there is more than ONE 'After Noon' Salah, Asr, Maghrib & Isha are scheduled 'After Noon'!
Again, In those parts of the world where its daylight for 24 hours for 6 months, the 'plurality' of Al-Salati Al-Wusta / , would continue to sustain their scheduled Salah timings for Asr, Maghrib & Isha.
Peace
There are only two prayers per day.Peace
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Peace MTR,
hmm Again, I see that it is you who don't know what you're talking about, brother. Your theory would make a lot of sense if "wusta" actually meant midday, afternoon, or anything like that. Unfortuately for you, though, IT DOESN'T. The Arabic word "wusta" means "middle". So, "alsalaat alwusta" literally means MIDDLE PRAYER, not afternoon prayer, midday prayer, or anything like that. It ("wusta" means MIDDLE. In order for there to be a "middle" salaat, there must be at THREE SALAAT OBSERVANCES (based on an odd number). Plus, it would make sense if the "asr" or "maghrib" salaat observances were mentioned in the Qur'an as being in the "middle"; but unfortunately for you, THEY'RE NOT... Also, the word "salawaat" is the plural form of "salaat"; your statement that it means "Places, Timings & Actions of Salat" is completely false. You need to get rid of that Arabic dictionary, brother, seriously. It's misguiding you...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Middle means in the middle of day (yaom) between the day (nahar) and night (layl) wich is the night prayer (isha).Peace
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Ahmad, stop 'frontin', your not that tight....I dont know what community your from in the States, but Im out on the Westside, we dont 'front', we are serious about ours, dont get it twisted, I can stretch you out, where you wont have any get back....I already asked you a basic question in another thread, you started scratchin your head and pullin at the back of your trousers....
alwusta midmost, middle most;occupy the middle position, AFTERNOON
Hans Wehr Arabic English Dictionary 4th Edition page 1250Now write the publisher of Hans Wehr and tell them that you dont want 'wusta' to mean 'Afternoon'.
If you are successful I will take my Sarf lessons from you.
Peace
Actually wusta means middle. Asr means afternoon.Peace
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The meaning of wusta has already been discussed in numerous topics.
For example http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0Please use the seach function of the forum.
Peace
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Assalaam Alaikum
@Ahmad, your so myopic you cant tell the difference between a metaphor and a rhetorical statement...sitdown, take a break
@JM...I dont believe you about Hans Wehr, so now what?
Lastly, you folks are so stuck from the Free Minds Arabic 'translation' which lacks the Harakat, that you cant derive correct, gender, tense and number.
Wusta is an ADJECTIVE describing the 'plurality' of the Midday, After Noon Salah....
Just in case you forgot Midday starts at Noon and continues throughout the AFTERNOON.
Again its part of the case construct....
Salawat is PLURAL As-Salati is PLURAL the adjective is Al-Wusta, that defines Salati, When? Midday How Long? Thru the Afternoon How many? Asr, Maghrib, Isha
thats simple grammar in ANY language