The true Islam
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Assalaam Alaikum
@Ahmad, your so myopic you cant tell the difference between a metaphor and a rhetorical statement...sitdown, take a break
@JM...I dont believe you about Hans Wehr, so now what?
Lastly, you folks are so stuck from the Free Minds Arabic 'translation' which lacks the Harakat, that you cant derive correct, gender, tense and number.
Wusta is an ADJECTIVE describing the 'plurality' of the Midday, After Noon Salah....
Just in case you forgot Midday starts at Noon and continues throughout the AFTERNOON.
Again its part of the case construct....
Salawat is PLURAL As-Salati is PLURAL the adjective is Al-Wusta, that defines Salati, When? Midday How Long? Thru the Afternoon How many? Asr, Maghrib, Isha
thats simple grammar in ANY language
Peace
Wusta simply means middle.Peace
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Salata is grammatically Singular but semantically Plural (See 'broken plural' rule)
If you say that it is "grammatically Singular", then we agree.
What do you mean by "semantically Plural" ?
Are you meaning that it can refer to the process of remembrance in general ?Peace
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Peace
Wusta simply means middle.Peace
Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.Peace
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Peace,
This may very well be the case. However, IN THIS INSTANCE, it's not correct. Since "alsalaat alwusta" is referring to one particular salaat observances in a ONE DAY PERIOD, the "alsalawaat" must be talking about a group of salaat observances during the same ONE DAY PERIOD. It's not necessarily about general plural and singular nouns; it's about how the word is used in this instance... I've never seen where "salawaat" is used as a general plural noun, especially since it's already a plural noun. Now, can it be used generally in a plural sense (i.e. "Uphold the salawaat"? Yes, of course. But in this case, it's not used this way, and I haven't seen anywhere else in the Qur'an where it's used this way either. The generalized plural form is always the singular usage (i.e. "Uphold the salaat". That's why this can be measured in the setting of one day. If I said this, it would imply the same grammatical message
Remember to take out the dogs, especially the black dog, and feed them when they come inside the house.
If you're referring to the dogs being taken in a general sense, then this would be grammatically incorrect, since no time period is relayed for the black dog. However, if you're speaking about taking out the black dog TODAY, this implies that all the other dogs must also be taken out the TODAY. It's the same way in the case of 'salaat al wusta'; since the passage is referring to observing the 'salaat al wusta'/middle prayer EVERYDAY, it's implying that you must also observe the 'salawaat'/three or more prayers EVERYDAY.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
First you say "in a one day period" and then you say everyday. I believe that you are not sure what you mean. Of course its not one day period. It means to also to be quardian of the middle prayer all the days of our life.
You can use plural both as specific nr or generally and here it means generally.
I have already showed you another place in the Quran where salawat is used as in generally.Peace
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Peace MTR,
Wow, calm down, buddy. I was just joking, and I made that pretty clear when I made the statement about 2Pac... ) You need to take a seat, and let your blood pressure go down a little...
This is wrong, brother, WRONG. The Arabic word "wusta" doesn't have anything to do with time periods and midday segments. The word "wusta"/middle can be applied to anything. It doesn't mean noon, midday, or anything like that. It simply means "MIDDLE". It can also be translated as "best" or "balanced", but that doesn't apply in this context. So, if the scriptural passage says "salaat al WUSTA", it simply means the salaat observance in the MIDDLE of the other ones. Since there are two other mandatory salaat times described in the Qur'an (i.e. morning and evening), then the MIDDLE part between these two would be (1) noon and (2) midnight. Both are directly in the middle of the other two prescribed times... Sunni Moslems falsely attributed this word "wusta" to mean "afternoon" because it is in the MIDDLE of their 5 daily salaat, actually being "salaat al asr". But in reality, "wusta" doesn't have anything to do with the afternoon at all...
This is incorrect. Yes, "salawaat" is plural, meaning three or more salaat observances. However, "salaat" is SINGULAR, whether the context sets it as "salaati" or "salaata"; it's the same thing. The phrase "al-wusta" means "the middle". So, "salaat al wusta" literally means "prayer in the middle". You don't need a dictionary to translate this, brother.
SALAAT = prayer (singular, one)
AL = the
WUSTA = middleAL = the
SALAWAAT = prayers (plural, three or more)
SALAATAYN = prayers (plural, two)Now, can you determine what the message of 2238 is saying?
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
You forgot to put
Salat = generally
Salawat = generallyPeace
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Ahmad, You dont get it
They are PLURAL....Genitive and Construct Case.....ALL PLURAL NOUNS!
Wusta is a Predicate!
"nominal sentences." Those are the sentences which begin with a noun word. The part of the sentence that is before the hidden (i.e. the subject) is called mubtada'< the start. The part after the As-Salawati & As-Salati is the predicate, Al-Wusta in Arabic khabar = the predicate.
Salawat is PLURAL As-Salati is PLURAL the adjective is Al-Wusta, that defines Salati, When? Midday How Long? Thru the Afternoon How many? Asr, Maghrib, Isha
Do some research Ahmad..
Peace
Still wusta means only middle.Peace
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Peace,
Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".I already mentioned this as well, and yes, "wusta" can also be applied to mean best or balanced. However, this is not the case in the Qur'an, at least not in this instance. If so, then which of the obligatory salaat observances is the "best"? ) Since all of them are obligatory, then there is no "best" one, which illustrates that the scripture must be talking about the "middle" one. Now, regarding the middle salaat, it depends on how it is interpreted. The times of day in correlation to the salaat observances, particularly the middle one, is as follows
morning ---> middle ---> evening or evening --->middle ---> morning
So, the middle prayer could be referring to either the noon or the midnight prayer. It's my personal interpretation that this is referring to the salaat observance at/around midnight, which is directly in the middle of evening and morning. Either way, it's referring to the middle (or central) subject or object. Since "salaat" is the subject, then "wusta" is referring to the middle or central salaat, which is the one between evening and morning (or morning and evening).
And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.This is misleading. It's concepts are based on the hadith writings, and they believe there to be 5 daily salaat observances. So, of course to them, the middle one would be the afternoon prayer/"salaat al asr", since they practice (1) morning, (2) noon, (3) afternoon, (4) evening, and (5) night salaat observances. The afternoon/"asr" prayer falls directly in the middle of the other 4, and this is why they justify "salaat al wusta" to be referring to a prayer during the afternoon.
peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum @JM
No need to rehash these points.....
In the references given, 2.3, 2.45, 2.110 & 7.170 Salata is plural.
Salata
Is a Irregular Plural Noun, the root pattern Sad-Lam-Waw has been 'broken' with the tarmubutah
Salata is grammatically Singular but semantically Plural (See 'broken plural' rule)
The following are SINGULAR references to Salah
So he did not verify it / saddaqa and did not SALLA / PRAY.
salla (Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) someone prayed
salli ( Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) You pray
yusalli (Singular, Verbal Form II, Imperfect) He is prayingPLURAL reference to Salah
They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.
Al-Baqarah 2.238] Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS
salawatun / salawati(Plural Noun, Used in Nominative & Genitive Case) Prayers, Blessings
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 320
salaatayn?, I dont believe thats even a word.
Peace
Both examples of salawat are meant in generallyPeace
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Peace MTR,
You're still not getting what I'm saying...
That's what I've been saying all along. The mentions of "salaat" in those verses are used as generalized plural nouns, even though the regular noun "salaat" is singular. That's why, when the Qur'an speaks of uphold the salaat, it's not necessarily speaking of one individual salaat; it's speaking of general salaat as a whole.
This is where you keep getting it confused. We are speaking about the specific noun "SALAAT". When you base the singular usages of them the way you're referencing them in these other verses, yes, they are singular usages, but they're not NOUNS. They're used in these instances (i.e. "saalla", "saalli", and "yusalli" as VERBS. You can't say, "Remember the SAALLA"; this is grammatically incorrect. We are referring specifically to the Arabic word "salaat" used as a NOUN. Throughout the scriptures, "salaat" is used as both a singular noun and a general/irregular plural noun.
In this case, "salawaat" is not used as an indicator; it's used to refer to the prayers themselves. It says
"Keep the PRAYERS (i.e. THREE OR MORE), especially the MIDDLE PRAYER (i.e. ONE)..."
This is a pretty basic explanation. The middle prayer ("salaat al wusta" is included in the other prayers ("salawaat" it is just given especiality. This is a clear statement stating that there are at least three daily obligatory salaat observances (i.e. morning-->noon-->night or night-->midnight-->morning). Now, if the "midnight" salaat observance is implied to not be obligatory, then this implies that this "middle prayer" is referring to noon; if the "midnight" salaat is obligatory, then this is the "middle prayer"/salaat al wusta.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Actually the correct translation is " Guard you prayers and the middle prayer". As you can see here is looks even more clear that salawat is meant in general here.Peace
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Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.Peace
Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.Peace
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Peace,
First you say "in a one day period" and then you say everyday. I believe that you are not sure what you mean. Of course its not one day period. It means to also to be quardian of the middle prayer all the days of our life.
rotfl I know exactly what I mean, and it's not hard to understand at all. God willing, Allah will guide us to the truth... What I was referring to is the continuation of the verse by adding especiality to "salaat al wusta". Since "salaat al wusta" must be observed EVERYDAY, that means we must also observe the "salawaat" EVERYDAY. What applies to one applies to the other. If the verse said this, it's giving the same concept
Keep the salawaat on Tuesday, especially the salaat at 3pm...
This statement clearly implies that the "salaat at 3pm" is occurring on TUESDAY, just like the "salawaat". Just because it doesn't specifically state that we must observe this "salaat at 3pm on Tuesday", it doesn't mean that's not the implication. This is the exact same case with "salaat al wusta". That phrase is SPECIFIC. This middle salaat must be observed everyday. Therefore, the implication is that the THREE OR MORE PRAYERS/salawaat must also be observed everyday.
If you based "salawaat" to mean "all the prayers during your entire lifetime", this would form an illogical conclusion. First of all, since it gives especiality to the "salaat al wusta", placing this in the midst of these would not imply a time but a period of life. The mention of a "salaat al wusta" would be made to mean "prayer in the middle of your lifetime", which is inconsistent, since we have no idea how long our lifetime is. The only way "salaat al wusta" could effectively be classified as a daily middle prayer, then "salawaat" must also refer to a group of daily prayers.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Actually the correct translation is " Guard you prayers and the middle prayer". As you can see here is looks even more clear that salawat is meant in general here.
First of all, the word "wa"/and is not included there (i.e. "and the middle prayer". This is wrong, because this sets the "salaat al wusta" apart from the others, even though it's part of them. Still, it gives especiality, so it can be translated as, "Guard your prayers, especially the middle prayer..." Now, my question for you is this How often are the believers advised to observe this middle prayer? Do they do it everyday? Or do they do it once, in the middle of their lifetime? This is how you determine the time period of being mentioned in this verse; if "salaat al wusta" is speaking about DAILY observance, then "salawaat" is also talking about DAILY observance. And the only way you can consider "salawaat" being observed daily is if there are at least three prayers per day...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum
@Ahmad, Again, speak what you know, NOT what you think.....stop 'frontin'
Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS and (be preserver of) the alwusta / afternoon, midmost, middle SALAH/PRAYER and you stand for Allah obediently.
@Ahmad, Do some research on Genitive Construct
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Peace MTR,
@Ahmad, Again, speak what you know, NOT what you think.....stop 'frontin'
rotfl Okay...
Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS and (be preserver of) the alwusta / afternoon, midmost, middle SALAH/PRAYER and you stand for Allah obediently.
What I said was a mis-statement. What I meant to say is the word "wa"/and is not used in the verse to separate it from the "salawaat". Since it conveys especiality, then the "salaat al wusta"/middle prayer is still part of the rest of the prayers/"salawaat". If you conclude it by your reasoning, then "salawaat" can't be referring to prayers; it would have to be something completely separate and different from "salaat", which is NOT the case. This middle prayer is obviously being given special significance, giving an accurate translation of 2238 as
Guard the prayers, and/especially the middle prayer...
I'm speaking what I know, not what I think... How can YOU tell ME to speak what I know when you're claiming that "wusta" means "afternoon"? ) You need to speak what you know, not what you think. And you need to get rid of that misleading dictionary you keep using...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.Peace
Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.
Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.
Peace
Peace
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Ahmad, Take a break, you don't have a clue, your just talking "out the side of your neck".
Be humble enough to learn, and the only way you can learn is to listen.
Take a break for a day or two, arm yourself with at least a cursory understanding of the subject matter. Then come back to the thread and lets talk.
May I suggest you start with the Genitive Construct.
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Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.
No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.
Peace
Peace
Assalaam Alaikum @JM
Al-Wusta is a predicate of the Genitive Construct in Sura 2.238
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Peace,
rotfl I know exactly what I mean, and it's not hard to understand at all. God willing, Allah will guide us to the truth... What I was referring to is the continuation of the verse by adding especiality to "salaat al wusta". Since "salaat al wusta" must be observed EVERYDAY, that means we must also observe the "salawaat" EVERYDAY. What applies to one applies to the other. If the verse said this, it's giving the same concept
Keep the salawaat on Tuesday, especially the salaat at 3pm...
This statement clearly implies that the "salaat at 3pm" is occurring on TUESDAY, just like the "salawaat". Just because it doesn't specifically state that we must observe this "salaat at 3pm on Tuesday", it doesn't mean that's not the implication. This is the exact same case with "salaat al wusta". That phrase is SPECIFIC. This middle salaat must be observed everyday. Therefore, the implication is that the THREE OR MORE PRAYERS/salawaat must also be observed everyday.
If you based "salawaat" to mean "all the prayers during your entire lifetime", this would form an illogical conclusion. First of all, since it gives especiality to the "salaat al wusta", placing this in the midst of these would not imply a time but a period of life. The mention of a "salaat al wusta" would be made to mean "prayer in the middle of your lifetime", which is inconsistent, since we have no idea how long our lifetime is. The only way "salaat al wusta" could effectively be classified as a daily middle prayer, then "salawaat" must also refer to a group of daily prayers.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Actually in arabic it says; Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. It doesnt say especially. So its just in generally to observe prayers and also the middle prayer. Just like that.Peace
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Peace,
First of all, the word "wa"/and is not included there (i.e. "and the middle prayer". This is wrong, because this sets the "salaat al wusta" apart from the others, even though it's part of them. Still, it gives especiality, so it can be translated as, "Guard your prayers, especially the middle prayer..." Now, my question for you is this How often are the believers advised to observe this middle prayer? Do they do it everyday? Or do they do it once, in the middle of their lifetime? This is how you determine the time period of being mentioned in this verse; if "salaat al wusta" is speaking about DAILY observance, then "salawaat" is also talking about DAILY observance. And the only way you can consider "salawaat" being observed daily is if there are at least three prayers per day...
Peace,
Ahmad
Actually the word wa/and is the only word written in arabic instead of especially. Again here it is in correct english translation;
Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. This shows the true meaning wich is prayers in generally and the middle prayer.
Peace