The true Islam
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Peace,
Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".I already mentioned this as well, and yes, "wusta" can also be applied to mean best or balanced. However, this is not the case in the Qur'an, at least not in this instance. If so, then which of the obligatory salaat observances is the "best"? ) Since all of them are obligatory, then there is no "best" one, which illustrates that the scripture must be talking about the "middle" one. Now, regarding the middle salaat, it depends on how it is interpreted. The times of day in correlation to the salaat observances, particularly the middle one, is as follows
morning ---> middle ---> evening or evening --->middle ---> morning
So, the middle prayer could be referring to either the noon or the midnight prayer. It's my personal interpretation that this is referring to the salaat observance at/around midnight, which is directly in the middle of evening and morning. Either way, it's referring to the middle (or central) subject or object. Since "salaat" is the subject, then "wusta" is referring to the middle or central salaat, which is the one between evening and morning (or morning and evening).
And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.This is misleading. It's concepts are based on the hadith writings, and they believe there to be 5 daily salaat observances. So, of course to them, the middle one would be the afternoon prayer/"salaat al asr", since they practice (1) morning, (2) noon, (3) afternoon, (4) evening, and (5) night salaat observances. The afternoon/"asr" prayer falls directly in the middle of the other 4, and this is why they justify "salaat al wusta" to be referring to a prayer during the afternoon.
peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum @JM
No need to rehash these points.....
In the references given, 2.3, 2.45, 2.110 & 7.170 Salata is plural.
Salata
Is a Irregular Plural Noun, the root pattern Sad-Lam-Waw has been 'broken' with the tarmubutah
Salata is grammatically Singular but semantically Plural (See 'broken plural' rule)
The following are SINGULAR references to Salah
So he did not verify it / saddaqa and did not SALLA / PRAY.
salla (Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) someone prayed
salli ( Singular, Verbal Form II, Perfect) You pray
yusalli (Singular, Verbal Form II, Imperfect) He is prayingPLURAL reference to Salah
They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.
Al-Baqarah 2.238] Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS
salawatun / salawati(Plural Noun, Used in Nominative & Genitive Case) Prayers, Blessings
Dictionary of the Holy Quran page 320
salaatayn?, I dont believe thats even a word.
Peace
Both examples of salawat are meant in generallyPeace
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Peace MTR,
You're still not getting what I'm saying...
That's what I've been saying all along. The mentions of "salaat" in those verses are used as generalized plural nouns, even though the regular noun "salaat" is singular. That's why, when the Qur'an speaks of uphold the salaat, it's not necessarily speaking of one individual salaat; it's speaking of general salaat as a whole.
This is where you keep getting it confused. We are speaking about the specific noun "SALAAT". When you base the singular usages of them the way you're referencing them in these other verses, yes, they are singular usages, but they're not NOUNS. They're used in these instances (i.e. "saalla", "saalli", and "yusalli" as VERBS. You can't say, "Remember the SAALLA"; this is grammatically incorrect. We are referring specifically to the Arabic word "salaat" used as a NOUN. Throughout the scriptures, "salaat" is used as both a singular noun and a general/irregular plural noun.
In this case, "salawaat" is not used as an indicator; it's used to refer to the prayers themselves. It says
"Keep the PRAYERS (i.e. THREE OR MORE), especially the MIDDLE PRAYER (i.e. ONE)..."
This is a pretty basic explanation. The middle prayer ("salaat al wusta" is included in the other prayers ("salawaat" it is just given especiality. This is a clear statement stating that there are at least three daily obligatory salaat observances (i.e. morning-->noon-->night or night-->midnight-->morning). Now, if the "midnight" salaat observance is implied to not be obligatory, then this implies that this "middle prayer" is referring to noon; if the "midnight" salaat is obligatory, then this is the "middle prayer"/salaat al wusta.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Actually the correct translation is " Guard you prayers and the middle prayer". As you can see here is looks even more clear that salawat is meant in general here.Peace
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Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.Peace
Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.Peace
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Peace,
First you say "in a one day period" and then you say everyday. I believe that you are not sure what you mean. Of course its not one day period. It means to also to be quardian of the middle prayer all the days of our life.
rotfl I know exactly what I mean, and it's not hard to understand at all. God willing, Allah will guide us to the truth... What I was referring to is the continuation of the verse by adding especiality to "salaat al wusta". Since "salaat al wusta" must be observed EVERYDAY, that means we must also observe the "salawaat" EVERYDAY. What applies to one applies to the other. If the verse said this, it's giving the same concept
Keep the salawaat on Tuesday, especially the salaat at 3pm...
This statement clearly implies that the "salaat at 3pm" is occurring on TUESDAY, just like the "salawaat". Just because it doesn't specifically state that we must observe this "salaat at 3pm on Tuesday", it doesn't mean that's not the implication. This is the exact same case with "salaat al wusta". That phrase is SPECIFIC. This middle salaat must be observed everyday. Therefore, the implication is that the THREE OR MORE PRAYERS/salawaat must also be observed everyday.
If you based "salawaat" to mean "all the prayers during your entire lifetime", this would form an illogical conclusion. First of all, since it gives especiality to the "salaat al wusta", placing this in the midst of these would not imply a time but a period of life. The mention of a "salaat al wusta" would be made to mean "prayer in the middle of your lifetime", which is inconsistent, since we have no idea how long our lifetime is. The only way "salaat al wusta" could effectively be classified as a daily middle prayer, then "salawaat" must also refer to a group of daily prayers.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Actually the correct translation is " Guard you prayers and the middle prayer". As you can see here is looks even more clear that salawat is meant in general here.
First of all, the word "wa"/and is not included there (i.e. "and the middle prayer". This is wrong, because this sets the "salaat al wusta" apart from the others, even though it's part of them. Still, it gives especiality, so it can be translated as, "Guard your prayers, especially the middle prayer..." Now, my question for you is this How often are the believers advised to observe this middle prayer? Do they do it everyday? Or do they do it once, in the middle of their lifetime? This is how you determine the time period of being mentioned in this verse; if "salaat al wusta" is speaking about DAILY observance, then "salawaat" is also talking about DAILY observance. And the only way you can consider "salawaat" being observed daily is if there are at least three prayers per day...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Assalaam Alaikum
@Ahmad, Again, speak what you know, NOT what you think.....stop 'frontin'
Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS and (be preserver of) the alwusta / afternoon, midmost, middle SALAH/PRAYER and you stand for Allah obediently.
@Ahmad, Do some research on Genitive Construct
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Peace MTR,
@Ahmad, Again, speak what you know, NOT what you think.....stop 'frontin'
rotfl Okay...
Be preserver over the SALAWAT / PRAYERS and (be preserver of) the alwusta / afternoon, midmost, middle SALAH/PRAYER and you stand for Allah obediently.
What I said was a mis-statement. What I meant to say is the word "wa"/and is not used in the verse to separate it from the "salawaat". Since it conveys especiality, then the "salaat al wusta"/middle prayer is still part of the rest of the prayers/"salawaat". If you conclude it by your reasoning, then "salawaat" can't be referring to prayers; it would have to be something completely separate and different from "salaat", which is NOT the case. This middle prayer is obviously being given special significance, giving an accurate translation of 2238 as
Guard the prayers, and/especially the middle prayer...
I'm speaking what I know, not what I think... How can YOU tell ME to speak what I know when you're claiming that "wusta" means "afternoon"? ) You need to speak what you know, not what you think. And you need to get rid of that misleading dictionary you keep using...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Please have a look on this page from the Lane's Lexicon (right column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000195.pdf
You will see that it wasatun does not only mean "middle".And in this page (left column)
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume8/00000196.pdf
Lane quotes some opinions about the meaning of as-salati al-wusta.Peace
Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.
Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.
Peace
Peace
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Ahmad, Take a break, you don't have a clue, your just talking "out the side of your neck".
Be humble enough to learn, and the only way you can learn is to listen.
Take a break for a day or two, arm yourself with at least a cursory understanding of the subject matter. Then come back to the thread and lets talk.
May I suggest you start with the Genitive Construct.
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Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.
No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.
Peace
Peace
Assalaam Alaikum @JM
Al-Wusta is a predicate of the Genitive Construct in Sura 2.238
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Peace,
rotfl I know exactly what I mean, and it's not hard to understand at all. God willing, Allah will guide us to the truth... What I was referring to is the continuation of the verse by adding especiality to "salaat al wusta". Since "salaat al wusta" must be observed EVERYDAY, that means we must also observe the "salawaat" EVERYDAY. What applies to one applies to the other. If the verse said this, it's giving the same concept
Keep the salawaat on Tuesday, especially the salaat at 3pm...
This statement clearly implies that the "salaat at 3pm" is occurring on TUESDAY, just like the "salawaat". Just because it doesn't specifically state that we must observe this "salaat at 3pm on Tuesday", it doesn't mean that's not the implication. This is the exact same case with "salaat al wusta". That phrase is SPECIFIC. This middle salaat must be observed everyday. Therefore, the implication is that the THREE OR MORE PRAYERS/salawaat must also be observed everyday.
If you based "salawaat" to mean "all the prayers during your entire lifetime", this would form an illogical conclusion. First of all, since it gives especiality to the "salaat al wusta", placing this in the midst of these would not imply a time but a period of life. The mention of a "salaat al wusta" would be made to mean "prayer in the middle of your lifetime", which is inconsistent, since we have no idea how long our lifetime is. The only way "salaat al wusta" could effectively be classified as a daily middle prayer, then "salawaat" must also refer to a group of daily prayers.
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
Actually in arabic it says; Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. It doesnt say especially. So its just in generally to observe prayers and also the middle prayer. Just like that.Peace
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Peace,
First of all, the word "wa"/and is not included there (i.e. "and the middle prayer". This is wrong, because this sets the "salaat al wusta" apart from the others, even though it's part of them. Still, it gives especiality, so it can be translated as, "Guard your prayers, especially the middle prayer..." Now, my question for you is this How often are the believers advised to observe this middle prayer? Do they do it everyday? Or do they do it once, in the middle of their lifetime? This is how you determine the time period of being mentioned in this verse; if "salaat al wusta" is speaking about DAILY observance, then "salawaat" is also talking about DAILY observance. And the only way you can consider "salawaat" being observed daily is if there are at least three prayers per day...
Peace,
Ahmad
Actually the word wa/and is the only word written in arabic instead of especially. Again here it is in correct english translation;
Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. This shows the true meaning wich is prayers in generally and the middle prayer.
Peace
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Peace,
Actually the word wa/and is the only word written in arabic instead of especially. Again here it is in correct english translation;
Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. This shows the true meaning wich is prayers in generally and the middle prayer.
I know it doesn't use the word "especially", and this is already noted. However, what I said is it conveys especiality. It literally says, "Guard the prayers and the middle prayer..." Now, unless this is forming a concept of especiality, this statement is illogical, since the middle prayer would obviously be a prayer too (part of the "prayers"/salawaat)... You can't say, "Get the dogs and the black dog..." This is illogical and redundant, since the black dog is part of the group of dogs you mentioned in the first place. The only way you could convey the message while still forming a separation of the two subjects is if you based a conclusion of especiality (i.e. "Get the dogs, especially the black dog..."), which is what is done in the Qur'an regarding the 'salawaat' and the 'salaat al wusta'. Since the 'salaat al wusta' is one of the 'salawaat'/prayers, it must be conveying especiality, not general separation...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Ahmad, Take a break, you don't have a clue, your just talking "out the side of your neck".
Be humble enough to learn, and the only way you can learn is to listen.
Take a break for a day or two, arm yourself with at least a cursory understanding of the subject matter. Then come back to the thread and lets talk.
May I suggest you start with the Genitive Construct.
You've gotta be kidding me, dude. You need to stop talking until you know what you're talking about, "Mr. Wusta Means Afternoon". This is getting ridiculous. Everybody already tells you how badly that dictionary of yours keeps sending you off, and yet, you still refuse to find a replacement or get rid of it. I suggest you find an Arabic instructor and ask for help. Don't be too prideful to do this... I'm humble enough to learn things that I formerly was unaware of, and I've demonstrated that plenty of times, even on this website. You need to take your own advice, still claiming that "wusta" means "afternoon". And you're counselling ME on my ignorance? -\ Brother, you need to get a clue, seriously. If you do less talking and more listening, then perhaps you'll learn something. But to this day, your faulty dictionary has been giving you mistranslations and falsehoods regarding a whole lot of things; and I personally wouldn't trust it. You need to get rid of it, QUICK! yes
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace
Actually in arabic it says; Guard the prayers and the middle prayer. It doesnt say especially. So its just in generally to observe prayers and also the middle prayer. Just like that.Peace
Again Al-Salati is Plural, in the Genitive Case, the predicate is Al-Wusta, again Plural....Afternoon Prayers, period NOT ONE 'midday' prayer.
Its grammatically singular but Semantically Plural, meaning its application and implementation has multiple elements, units, in this instance Multiple Timings (i.e. afternoon timings).
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Peace MTR,
Again Al-Salati is Plural, in the Genitive Case, the predicate is Al-Wusta, again Plural....Afternoon Prayers, period NOT ONE 'midday' prayer.
Its grammatically singular but Semantically Plural, meaning its application and implementation has multiple elements, units, in this instance Multiple Timings (i.e. afternoon timings).
o If "salawaat" is plural in 2238, then how can "salaat" be plural in this same verse? You're implying that this says, "Guard the salawaat/prayers (plural) and the salaat al wusta/middle prayers (plural)? nope If both are plural, then why didn't the Qur'an use the same word for both? For example
Guard the salawaat/prayers and the SALAWAAT AL WUSTA/middle prayers...?
Or
Guard the SALAAT/prayers and the salaat al wusta/middle prayers...?
Or even
Guard the salawaat/prayers and the salaat al wustaata/prayer in the middles...?The Qur'an uses TWO DIFFERENT WORDS to describe TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. The word "salawaat" is undeniably plural, and this is why this same verse uses it's singular form (i.e. "salaat". And whether your view of "salawaat" is speaking about daily prayers or prayers throughout a lifetime, the MIDDLE PRAYER would have to be part of this collection, since it's also a prayer. And no matter how you view it, the word "wusta" in this sense is SINGULAR, not even remotely resembling a plural adjective... And again, "WUSTA" DOES NOT MEAN "AFTERNOON"; it means MIDDLE... Don't be prideful, brother. It's okay to admit when you're wrong... yes Your dictionary is wrong, and by sticking with your faulty conclusions, you are only misleading others...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace MTR,
rotfl Okay...
What I said was a mis-statement. What I meant to say is the word "wa"/and is not used in the verse to separate it from the "salawaat". Since it conveys especiality, then the "salaat al wusta"/middle prayer is still part of the rest of the prayers/"salawaat". If you conclude it by your reasoning, then "salawaat" can't be referring to prayers; it would have to be something completely separate and different from "salaat", which is NOT the case. This middle prayer is obviously being given special significance, giving an accurate translation of 2238 as
Guard the prayers, and/especially the middle prayer...
I'm speaking what I know, not what I think... How can YOU tell ME to speak what I know when you're claiming that "wusta" means "afternoon"? You need to speak what you know, not what you think. And you need to get rid of that misleading dictionary you keep using...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
You say that salawat cant be referring to prayers. Yet it says prayers wich means prayers. It not only can be referring to prayers but it is referring to prayers.Peace
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Peace
Still the word wusta only means middle.
No, Lane has quoted "mots excellent" as a possible translation of wusta.Penrise also proposes "the more worthy" for awsatu/wusta.
Peace
Peace
Peace
The same word is used in another verse in the Quran and still only meaning "middle".Quran sura 2 verse 143;
Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah's purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.
Peace
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Peace,
I know it doesn't use the word "especially", and this is already noted. However, what I said is it conveys especiality. It literally says, "Guard the prayers and the middle prayer..." Now, unless this is forming a concept of especiality, this statement is illogical, since the middle prayer would obviously be a prayer too (part of the "prayers"/salawaat)... You can't say, "Get the dogs and the black dog..." This is illogical and redundant, since the black dog is part of the group of dogs you mentioned in the first place. The only way you could convey the message while still forming a separation of the two subjects is if you based a conclusion of especiality (i.e. "Get the dogs, especially the black dog...", which is what is done in the Qur'an regarding the 'salawaat' and the 'salaat al wusta'. Since the 'salaat al wusta' is one of the 'salawaat'/prayers, it must be conveying especiality, not general separation...
Peace,
Ahmad
Peace
"Guard the prayers and the middle prayer" is not illogic and is perfect as it is written. Prayers meaning in generally. No problem at all.Peace