Verses on Homosexuality
-
exactly.
-
Salaam Ramzi,
What about when the great reading condemns deliberate killing unquestioningly (4-93)? Should we accept it, or find genetic/scientific reasons to why some people have to kill?
Forgive me if this sounds forward, but it seems that you're implying it's ungodly to find a scientific explanation for homosexuality only because you can't find any credible scientific evidence that people choose to be gay. And yes, we should question the traditional understanding that people have of what the great reading says about killing. Many people on this forum have and are decent people because of it. If they'd accepted Sunni and Shia beliefs about killing, they'd say it's okay to kill people for petty things like blasphemy, which no decent society criminalizes.
-
I was wrong. Bab edh-Dhra (Sodom) was invaded while Numeira (Gomorrah) was burnt down. Anyway, the documentary's available in five parts and you can watch them at the following addresses
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzwdiUwkjmY
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0O3CbWK-RQ&feature=related
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWvq0om1yeE&feature=related
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfTpE0wmQc&feature=related
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=c49Y7E84Nq4&feature=related -
Salaam Ramzi,
Forgive me if this sounds forward, but it seems that you're implying it's ungodly to find a scientific explanation for homosexuality only because you can't find any credible scientific evidence that people choose to be gay. And yes, we should question the traditional understanding that people have of what the great reading says about killing. Many people on this forum have and are decent people because of it. If they'd accepted Sunni and Shia beliefs about killing, they'd say it's okay to kill people for petty things like blasphemy, which no decent society criminalizes.
Peace,
The more important reason Ramzi's attempt doesn't hold is because murder is harming another person and society. Monogamous homosexuality with relation-contract doesn't harm anyone or society.
-
The more important reason Ramzi's attempt doesn't hold is because murder is harming another person and society. Monogamous homosexuality with relation-contract doesn't harm anyone or society.
Salaam brother Arnold,
I feel that you do not give enough credit to my argument becuase of your knowledge and experience in the subject. I argue becuase I feel (maybe I'm wrong) that accepting a person can be born gay may have negative effets on society.
What two consenting adults do in private is fine by me. What I am against is homosexual civil partnerships. And homosexual couples adopting.
Lets assume a person can be born gay.... What happens to his/her rights?
(I can elaborate for hours but I feel that these short thought provoking questions do the trick, unfortunately similar questions in my previous posts did not)
I am not gay myself, but part of my psychology and gender studies I have interviewed dozens and dozens of gay people, many of which are also my friends. So I talk from experience, not conjecture.
I appreciate your experience in the topic brother Arnold, but my view is that these people you interview, with all due respect to your friends, are blinded/confused.
To be fair in your judgement, have you interviewed ex-gays? And asked their opinions and how they managed to 'convert'/'turn' back to 'straight'?
I feel you will have a better grip on reality once you make a decision looking into both sides. And that is something I have done.
Regards
Ramzi
-
Salaam brother,
Brother, it doesn't matter what you think harms society, a large part of homosexuals are BORN gay, are natural homosexuals. Whaterever you do, you cannot argue your way out of it. There are people born as natural gays, the story of Lot clearly talks about aggressive and oppressive sexual behaviour, not love relationship. The term Shahwat is used, which refers to blind loveless lust/greed.
Homosexuals in a monogamous relationship does not harm society. No diseases are spread, there is no unstable relations, they contribute to society as much as you and me. When it comes to adopting children, it really depends on how the couple is. Many gay-parents are great parents studies have shown, and the interesting part is, that their adopted children (or their own in some cases), the percentage of their children turning being gay is LOWER then among heterosexual parents.
The persons who are ex-gay ( yes, I know them too) were all NON-natural homosexuals, but got into it because of lust or experiments in their youth. So again, your argument doesn't stand.
-
Yes, also it feels like people who will read these comments will think "well it's ok if i do all the wrong things in private, as long as i'm good in public i will be fine"
Isn't that known as hypocrisy? And wont the hypocrits be in the deapest depths of hell?
-
Can we please recognize the difference between a homosexual individual and those who fornicate in same sexim?
Thank you.
Salaam FAR,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
If someone does not fornicate with the same sex then he/she is not a homosexual. Regardless of whether this person is sexually attracted to the same sex or not.
According to some studies as brother Arnold pointed out, one may be born with these same sex attracions. That is no excuse for him/her to act upon them and fornicate with the same sex. Nor is it an excuse for demanding rights for recognition of partnerships or adoption.
Having these same sex attractions does not make a person homosexual. Acting upon them does.
Unfortunately, the view is that if you have same sex attractions then you are gay/homosexual. And these poor people are blinded and confused by this false concept. They look at life through this concept and will never come out of it.
With regards to Yosemite, you are right.... but I think the bigger issue was regarding negative effects to society. I said earlier that whatever 2 consenting adults do in private is fine by me. That does not make it ok to do the wrong things in private. What I mean is that it is of no concern to me. It does become a concern if it has negative effects on society (meaning it will harm me).
If such acts remain private then who am I to mouth off about it. What concerns me is people allowing homosexuals to adopt kids.
Regards
Ramzi
-
Salaam ramzi,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
If someone does not fornicate with the same sex then he/she is not a homosexual. Regardless of whether this person is sexually attracted to the same sex or not.
The English dictionary defines "Homosexual" as someone who's attracted to members of the same sex, but the definition of the word "Homosexual" is quite irrelevant to this discussion in my humble opinion.
According to some studies as brother Arnold pointed out, one may be born with these same sex attracions. That is no excuse for him/her to act upon them and fornicate with the same sex. Nor is it an excuse for demanding rights for recognition of partnerships or adoption.
Why not?
Having these same sex attractions does not make a person homosexual. Acting upon them does.
You're just obfuscating things, but for the purpose of this discussion, I'll assume that a homosexual is simply someone who acts on homosexual impulses.
Unfortunately, the view is that if you have same sex attractions then you are gay/homosexual. And these poor people are blinded and confused by this false concept. They look at life through this concept and will never come out of it.
How does this concept blind and confuse us?
With regards to Yosemite, you are right.... but I think the bigger issue was regarding negative effects to society. I said earlier that whatever 2 consenting adults do in private is fine by me. That does not make it ok to do the wrong things in private. What I mean is that it is of no concern to me. It does become a concern if it has negative effects on society (meaning it will harm me).
How will these acts harm anyone?
If such acts remain private then who am I to mouth off about it. What concerns me is people allowing homosexuals to adopt kids.
Why does allowing homosexuals to adopt kids alarm you? Studies show that lesbians make the best parents.
-
Salaam FAR,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
So in other words... a heterosexual is someone who fornicates with the opposite sex?
Salaam ramzi,
The English dictionary defines "Homosexual" as someone who's attracted to members of the same sex, but the definition of the word "Homosexual" is quite irrelevant to this discussion in my humble opinion.
Screw the English dictionary, it is we the common usage that make a word a word in the English language.
The definition of what the common individual sees as "homosexual" is extremely relevant.
You've seen the research done by the Swedish research group, and the posts I made. I've made it quite clear the difference between a homosexual and fornicating same sexer.
Also, where are these studies that show lesbian parents are best of all?
-
Yes, also it feels like people who will read these comments will think "well it's ok if i do all the wrong things in private, as long as i'm good in public i will be fine"
No one is saying it's OK. But whose business is it? It's their own problem with God. You have no control over them.
Of course this is not the behaviour of the righteous, but not everyone is righteous; so if someone is doing a wrong thing that does not affect another person, it's better not to do it in public so as not to encourage others by lowering the tolerence threshold. -
I do not believe people are born homosexual and neither do any studies convince me. I take this stance because I choose to excercise one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Choice. The Quranic verse 780 is very clear to me and needs no scientific explanation. The people of Lot committed sins that no people had committed before them and were thus wiped off the earth. Not some form of aggressive gay rape or submissive gay rape. They were having sexual realtions with the same sex and prefered men over women..
Homosexuality is not natural and neither will it ever be.
We must realise that homosexuals are a minority. Period. The dangerous part is when homosexuals try to justify that homosexuality is normal and part of every day life. In a secular society yes. In Muslim society no.
Being homosexual is not a part of Islam and neither will it ever be despite some people claiming to be 'gay' and incognito with the Quran or Islam.
On a final note if all mankind were to turn 'gay' overnight what would happen to the human race?
I reserve the right to hold my opinion and give no apologies.
Peace.
-
I do not believe people are born homosexual and neither do any studies convince me. I take this stance because I choose to excercise one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Choice.
Do humans have a choice in everything? Can you choose your sex, skin colour, eye colour, parents, siblings, time of birth und so weiter? No, similarly, you can't chose the way you develop inside your mother's womb, which goes a long way in determining your sexuality.
The Quranic verse 780 is very clear to me and needs no scientific explanation. The people of Lot committed sins that no people had committed before them and were thus wiped off the earth. Not some form of aggressive gay rape or submissive gay rape. They were having sexual realtions with the same sex and prefered men over women..
What is your argument in support of this belief?
Homosexuality is not natural and neither will it ever be.
What is natural? If by nature you mean something that happens in the "natural world", then homosexuality is perfectly natural. This concept of nature is a fallacy because everything is natural including computers, TVs and other modern inventions.
We must realise that homosexuals are a minority. Period.
No one's disputing this.
The dangerous part is when homosexuals try to justify that homosexuality is normal and part of every day life. In a secular society yes. In Muslim society no.
But how is it dangerous? Will your life be endangered if two men or two women marry each other and start having sex?
Being homosexual is not a part of Islam and neither will it ever be despite some people claiming to be 'gay' and incognito with the Quran or Islam.
Evidence?
On a final note if all mankind were to turn 'gay' overnight what would happen to the human race?
But people don't turn gay overnight. People's sexuality never changes.
I reserve the right to hold my opinion and give no apologies.
Of course you do, but shouldn't you be open to the possibility that you might be wrong?
-
Homosexuals in a monogamous relationship does not harm society. No diseases are spread, there is no unstable relations, they contribute to society as much as you and me. When it comes to adopting children, it really depends on how the couple is. Many gay-parents are great parents studies have shown, and the interesting part is, that their adopted children (or their own in some cases), the percentage of their children turning being gay is LOWER then among heterosexual parents.
I strongly suspect that those are false studies, or studies based on small, artificially selected case studies. There are lots of made up statistics going round to justify gay marriage. Can you tell us your source?
-
Peace,
I rarely use internet-sources for my ideas, I try always to get official university sources. It was presented in a documentary on non-commercial Dutch TV that reviewed all the official researches which has been done on this subject.
-
There is no such thing as 'official research' in genuine science. All it means is that false samples were used to obtained desired 'evidence' of pre-determined results.
Here's a study using actual statisics. It says the opposite of what your 'official research' claims.
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n124_v31/ai_19226135/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
-
All it means is that false samples were used to obtained desired 'evidence' of pre-determined results.
Why do you think "false samples" were used? What were these "false samples"?
Here's a study using actual statisics. It says the opposite of what your 'official research' claims.
That URL doesn't work. Statistics are highly objective and therefore good, but they can't give you much insight into human behaviour.