Verses on Homosexuality
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The more important reason Ramzi's attempt doesn't hold is because murder is harming another person and society. Monogamous homosexuality with relation-contract doesn't harm anyone or society.
Salaam brother Arnold,
I feel that you do not give enough credit to my argument becuase of your knowledge and experience in the subject. I argue becuase I feel (maybe I'm wrong) that accepting a person can be born gay may have negative effets on society.
What two consenting adults do in private is fine by me. What I am against is homosexual civil partnerships. And homosexual couples adopting.
Lets assume a person can be born gay.... What happens to his/her rights?
(I can elaborate for hours but I feel that these short thought provoking questions do the trick, unfortunately similar questions in my previous posts did not)
I am not gay myself, but part of my psychology and gender studies I have interviewed dozens and dozens of gay people, many of which are also my friends. So I talk from experience, not conjecture.
I appreciate your experience in the topic brother Arnold, but my view is that these people you interview, with all due respect to your friends, are blinded/confused.
To be fair in your judgement, have you interviewed ex-gays? And asked their opinions and how they managed to 'convert'/'turn' back to 'straight'?
I feel you will have a better grip on reality once you make a decision looking into both sides. And that is something I have done.
Regards
Ramzi
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Salaam brother,
Brother, it doesn't matter what you think harms society, a large part of homosexuals are BORN gay, are natural homosexuals. Whaterever you do, you cannot argue your way out of it. There are people born as natural gays, the story of Lot clearly talks about aggressive and oppressive sexual behaviour, not love relationship. The term Shahwat is used, which refers to blind loveless lust/greed.
Homosexuals in a monogamous relationship does not harm society. No diseases are spread, there is no unstable relations, they contribute to society as much as you and me. When it comes to adopting children, it really depends on how the couple is. Many gay-parents are great parents studies have shown, and the interesting part is, that their adopted children (or their own in some cases), the percentage of their children turning being gay is LOWER then among heterosexual parents.
The persons who are ex-gay ( yes, I know them too) were all NON-natural homosexuals, but got into it because of lust or experiments in their youth. So again, your argument doesn't stand.
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Yes, also it feels like people who will read these comments will think "well it's ok if i do all the wrong things in private, as long as i'm good in public i will be fine"
Isn't that known as hypocrisy? And wont the hypocrits be in the deapest depths of hell?
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Can we please recognize the difference between a homosexual individual and those who fornicate in same sexim?
Thank you.
Salaam FAR,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
If someone does not fornicate with the same sex then he/she is not a homosexual. Regardless of whether this person is sexually attracted to the same sex or not.
According to some studies as brother Arnold pointed out, one may be born with these same sex attracions. That is no excuse for him/her to act upon them and fornicate with the same sex. Nor is it an excuse for demanding rights for recognition of partnerships or adoption.
Having these same sex attractions does not make a person homosexual. Acting upon them does.
Unfortunately, the view is that if you have same sex attractions then you are gay/homosexual. And these poor people are blinded and confused by this false concept. They look at life through this concept and will never come out of it.
With regards to Yosemite, you are right.... but I think the bigger issue was regarding negative effects to society. I said earlier that whatever 2 consenting adults do in private is fine by me. That does not make it ok to do the wrong things in private. What I mean is that it is of no concern to me. It does become a concern if it has negative effects on society (meaning it will harm me).
If such acts remain private then who am I to mouth off about it. What concerns me is people allowing homosexuals to adopt kids.
Regards
Ramzi
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Salaam ramzi,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
If someone does not fornicate with the same sex then he/she is not a homosexual. Regardless of whether this person is sexually attracted to the same sex or not.
The English dictionary defines "Homosexual" as someone who's attracted to members of the same sex, but the definition of the word "Homosexual" is quite irrelevant to this discussion in my humble opinion.
According to some studies as brother Arnold pointed out, one may be born with these same sex attracions. That is no excuse for him/her to act upon them and fornicate with the same sex. Nor is it an excuse for demanding rights for recognition of partnerships or adoption.
Why not?
Having these same sex attractions does not make a person homosexual. Acting upon them does.
You're just obfuscating things, but for the purpose of this discussion, I'll assume that a homosexual is simply someone who acts on homosexual impulses.
Unfortunately, the view is that if you have same sex attractions then you are gay/homosexual. And these poor people are blinded and confused by this false concept. They look at life through this concept and will never come out of it.
How does this concept blind and confuse us?
With regards to Yosemite, you are right.... but I think the bigger issue was regarding negative effects to society. I said earlier that whatever 2 consenting adults do in private is fine by me. That does not make it ok to do the wrong things in private. What I mean is that it is of no concern to me. It does become a concern if it has negative effects on society (meaning it will harm me).
How will these acts harm anyone?
If such acts remain private then who am I to mouth off about it. What concerns me is people allowing homosexuals to adopt kids.
Why does allowing homosexuals to adopt kids alarm you? Studies show that lesbians make the best parents.
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Salaam FAR,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
So in other words... a heterosexual is someone who fornicates with the opposite sex?
Salaam ramzi,
The English dictionary defines "Homosexual" as someone who's attracted to members of the same sex, but the definition of the word "Homosexual" is quite irrelevant to this discussion in my humble opinion.
Screw the English dictionary, it is we the common usage that make a word a word in the English language.
The definition of what the common individual sees as "homosexual" is extremely relevant.
You've seen the research done by the Swedish research group, and the posts I made. I've made it quite clear the difference between a homosexual and fornicating same sexer.
Also, where are these studies that show lesbian parents are best of all?
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Yes, also it feels like people who will read these comments will think "well it's ok if i do all the wrong things in private, as long as i'm good in public i will be fine"
No one is saying it's OK. But whose business is it? It's their own problem with God. You have no control over them.
Of course this is not the behaviour of the righteous, but not everyone is righteous; so if someone is doing a wrong thing that does not affect another person, it's better not to do it in public so as not to encourage others by lowering the tolerence threshold. -
I do not believe people are born homosexual and neither do any studies convince me. I take this stance because I choose to excercise one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Choice. The Quranic verse 780 is very clear to me and needs no scientific explanation. The people of Lot committed sins that no people had committed before them and were thus wiped off the earth. Not some form of aggressive gay rape or submissive gay rape. They were having sexual realtions with the same sex and prefered men over women..
Homosexuality is not natural and neither will it ever be.
We must realise that homosexuals are a minority. Period. The dangerous part is when homosexuals try to justify that homosexuality is normal and part of every day life. In a secular society yes. In Muslim society no.
Being homosexual is not a part of Islam and neither will it ever be despite some people claiming to be 'gay' and incognito with the Quran or Islam.
On a final note if all mankind were to turn 'gay' overnight what would happen to the human race?
I reserve the right to hold my opinion and give no apologies.
Peace.
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I do not believe people are born homosexual and neither do any studies convince me. I take this stance because I choose to excercise one of the greatest gifts given to mankind. Choice.
Do humans have a choice in everything? Can you choose your sex, skin colour, eye colour, parents, siblings, time of birth und so weiter? No, similarly, you can't chose the way you develop inside your mother's womb, which goes a long way in determining your sexuality.
The Quranic verse 780 is very clear to me and needs no scientific explanation. The people of Lot committed sins that no people had committed before them and were thus wiped off the earth. Not some form of aggressive gay rape or submissive gay rape. They were having sexual realtions with the same sex and prefered men over women..
What is your argument in support of this belief?
Homosexuality is not natural and neither will it ever be.
What is natural? If by nature you mean something that happens in the "natural world", then homosexuality is perfectly natural. This concept of nature is a fallacy because everything is natural including computers, TVs and other modern inventions.
We must realise that homosexuals are a minority. Period.
No one's disputing this.
The dangerous part is when homosexuals try to justify that homosexuality is normal and part of every day life. In a secular society yes. In Muslim society no.
But how is it dangerous? Will your life be endangered if two men or two women marry each other and start having sex?
Being homosexual is not a part of Islam and neither will it ever be despite some people claiming to be 'gay' and incognito with the Quran or Islam.
Evidence?
On a final note if all mankind were to turn 'gay' overnight what would happen to the human race?
But people don't turn gay overnight. People's sexuality never changes.
I reserve the right to hold my opinion and give no apologies.
Of course you do, but shouldn't you be open to the possibility that you might be wrong?
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Homosexuals in a monogamous relationship does not harm society. No diseases are spread, there is no unstable relations, they contribute to society as much as you and me. When it comes to adopting children, it really depends on how the couple is. Many gay-parents are great parents studies have shown, and the interesting part is, that their adopted children (or their own in some cases), the percentage of their children turning being gay is LOWER then among heterosexual parents.
I strongly suspect that those are false studies, or studies based on small, artificially selected case studies. There are lots of made up statistics going round to justify gay marriage. Can you tell us your source?
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Peace,
I rarely use internet-sources for my ideas, I try always to get official university sources. It was presented in a documentary on non-commercial Dutch TV that reviewed all the official researches which has been done on this subject.
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There is no such thing as 'official research' in genuine science. All it means is that false samples were used to obtained desired 'evidence' of pre-determined results.
Here's a study using actual statisics. It says the opposite of what your 'official research' claims.
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n124_v31/ai_19226135/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
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All it means is that false samples were used to obtained desired 'evidence' of pre-determined results.
Why do you think "false samples" were used? What were these "false samples"?
Here's a study using actual statisics. It says the opposite of what your 'official research' claims.
That URL doesn't work. Statistics are highly objective and therefore good, but they can't give you much insight into human behaviour.
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There is no such thing as 'official research' in genuine science. All it means is that false samples were used to obtained desired 'evidence' of pre-determined results.
Here's a study using actual statisics. It says the opposite of what your 'official research' claims.
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n124_v31/ai_19226135/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1
Peace,
It is really interesting to observe this behaviour. You take on the notion of knowing what genuine science is and what I mean with official research, and then without having any knowledge, not one scrap because you haven't seen the studies, the researches presented in the documentary are childishly pushed away as false samples and preconceived notions. This is hypocrite, truly unscientific behaviour and completely discredits any argument you have and will have on this subject since it will never be based on research or objective reflection but on preconceived notions.
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For those insisting that homosexuality is not natural, do bear in mind that homosexual behaviour takes place in the animal kingdom, quite regularly.
On a final note if all mankind were to turn 'gay' overnight what would happen to the human race?
With that sentence, were you trying to assert that since homosexuality in itself would not benefit the propogation of the human race, it is unnatural and hence, bad? Aside from being a pretty strange sentence to support your posture, since it's way out of the ability of human beings to do that, it would be God's will and in that case, how do you argue against that. Would you then have to bite the bullet and accept homosexuality as a part of life, even as part of Muslim society? Do you, in some insane manner, despite your eventual new sexuality, try to argue that it isn't natural even when the world over humans are decidedly homosexual thus negating your argument that "homosexuality isn't natural"? In any case, what may happen is either the world population declines or, more likely, upon realising that it is essential for the good of the economy and other infrastructure that there be more humans produced yearly, humans will find a way to procreate despite being unattracted to the opposite sex. You forget that homosexuality does NOT mean an absence of desire for children.
Come to think of it, if we want to prevent homosexual couples from adopting on the basis that they would corrupt the children (baseless), we should prevent poor people from producing children, sterilise people who have any kind of disease and sterilise people who aren't productive members of society. Sounds good? You don't need to be homosexual to abuse children. A lot of abuse cases come from families with heterosexual coupling. Going by your reasoning, since a lot of people deemed evil arose out of heterosexual couples, we should prevent heterosexuals from procreating because they are likely to produce bad people.
Herein on, 'you' would be referring to those who hold the view.
What? See how strange that sounds. If you don't mean that homosexual parents raise bad children who lie, murder, steal and what you only mean is that they would raise homosexual children which is only morally wrong in the eyes of conservatives, you have a problem with priorities. If my understanding is wrong, please, enlighten us on how homosexual parents raise worser children than heterosexual couples.
For your reading pleasure
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal_2.html
http//seedmagazine.com/news/2006/06/the_gay_animal_kingdom.php
http//www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=bisexual-species
http//www.newscientist.com/article/dn13674-evolution-myths-natural-selection-cannot-explain-homosexuality.html
http//www.livescience.com/animals/080516-gay-animals.html
http//www.apa.org/monitor/dec05/kids.html
http//www.apa.org/pi/parent.html -
About that article published on BNet written by Paul Cameron and his son Kirk Cameron. Please read this http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cameron You might dismiss Wikipedia but it is policed rather well. Besides, the career history of Dr Paul Cameron is quite known.
Also, "Many of Cameron's papers have been published in the journal Psychological Reports; unlike many journals, this charges authors a publication fee and does not necessarily reject an article on the basis of a negative peer review" In other words, it's a vanity press. Not very reliable, eh?
Having a doctorate doesn't make someone automatically a beacon of truth as you may very well know since you refute sources that state no differences between homosexual and heterosexual parenting. Cameron is well known for his anti-homosexuality views and his tiny organisation 'Family Research Institute'.
Hey lookee here! Methodology problems!
http//psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_survey.html
http//psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html#cameronAlso http//www.qrd.org/qrd/religion/anti/cameron/medical.consequences.rebuttal2.txt but you might dismiss that.
http//www.splcenter.org/center/splcreport/article.jsp?aid=152
http//www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/05/08/343
http//www.boxturtlebulletin.com/2007/04/11/288http//wthrockmorton.com/2007/04/24/only-the-gay-die-young-part-4-brief-evaluation-of-cameron-cameron-2007/
Before you lambast him, Dr Throckmorton is hardly a liberal. He is a Christian conservative who believes in rehabilitation for those homosexuals who believe that they have to change due to religious beliefs.It's laughable of you to say that Dr Paul Cameron used 'real statistics'.
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Peace,
It is really interesting to observe this behaviour. You take on the notion of knowing what genuine science is and what I mean with official research, and then without having any knowledge, not one scrap because you haven't seen the studies, the researches presented in the documentary are childishly pushed away as false samples and preconceived notions. This is hypocrite, truly unscientific behaviour and completely discredits any argument you have and will have on this subject since it will never be based on research or objective reflection but on preconceived notions.
I know what scientific method is, yes. It requires falsifiability. And when you can't quote a source at all, that is unfalsifiable.
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About that article published on BNet written by Paul Cameron and his son Kirk Cameron. Please read this http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Cameron You might dismiss Wikipedia but it is policed rather well. Besides, the career history of Dr Paul Cameron is quite known.
Also, "Many of Cameron's papers have been published in the journal Psychological Reports; unlike many journals, this charges authors a publication fee and does not necessarily reject an article on the basis of a negative peer review" In other words, it's a vanity press. Not very reliable, eh?
Yes, I've seen articles ranting about Cameron before. Almost all of them are ranting about his politics. But I have not seen one replicating this kind of study. Your links complain about his small sample sizes - over 4000 respondents - but all of the studies I've heard about saying gay parents are just as good as other parents are based upon far, far smaller studies than this.
That's when my bullshit detector starts making noise. Can you point to any study as detailed as his with a similar or greater sample size? That actually gives detail its results.