I want to know the truth about what the Quran says about messengers
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Peace bro khyaletanzim,
Thanks for the verses. I agree with the verses that are clear. However some verses I believe are clearly specific to a particular time period e.g.
40.34 is what the believing man said to the Egyptians.Also verses like 3101 appear to be addressing just the "Sahaba" (for lack of a better term).
At the moment I am still leaning towards the view that Muhammad is not the "last" as there are no verses that indicate otherwise (the opposing view have not posted anything conclusive). God has always sent messengers. If he has stopped than I think he would have clearly said so.
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It is fairly sad that you feel the only way you can connect to our creator is through a book you most likely can barely read. Apologies if I'm wrong.
2135 And they said ?Be Jews or Nazarenes so that you may be guided!? Say ?No, rather the creed of Abraham, monotheism; for he was not of those who set up partners.?
Abraham didn't need a book. But some people want to follow his creed yet do not have the same wisdom and intellect. They can follow it by following the Quran.
The book is a mercy to those who appreciate it.1057 O mankind, advice has come to you from your Lord and a remedy for what is in the chests, and a guidance and mercy for the believers.
1782 And We send down from the Qur?an what is a healing and mercy to the believers. And it only increases the wicked in their loss. -
Dear aalmakto,
My understanding Regarding Sign(aya) is the Following.
Sign is not time bound and each sign is for us to understand the system. If that would mot have been the case then almost 40% of the verses are about past and explaining Himself 30% about believers and followers of Prophet and rest of it is divided between ordinary human and disbelievers. This will lead to a conclusion that there is very small info for us.
In my understanding sign on its own has an understanding and gathering together of the similar signs or the context can also help clarifying the message. I could not find any verse where some kind of message is not been understood if taken on its own. If you can point out any then i can rethink about my understanding.
I personally take the Quran as an explanation of a system to reach God or way to God. So my Approach is that it must be consistent at all times other wise it will be unjust environments for judgments. There can be a different calculation system of giving points to deeds but either way signs have their own values specially according to 37 which differentiate the verse into two categories.
Regarding the verses 4034 and 3101. if we take those signs for people you mention even then the verse 381 on its own clarifies that Prophets which are getting the revelations are told to follow the messenger and verse 337 telling us that Prophet Muhammad who was a messenger also was told to follow the messenger which clearly constitutes that following a messenger is necessity even for the Prophets. God also tells us at many places that we should follow the messenger. There is not one place where we are told to follow the prophets. We are clearly told to follow the God(which is to follow the revelations) and follow the messenger.
Regards.
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Salaamun Aalmakto & Khyaletanzim,
Peace bro khyaletanzim,
Thanks for the verses. I agree with the verses that are clear. However some verses I believe are clearly specific to a particular time period e.g.
40.34 is what the believing man said to the Egyptians.Also verses like 3101 appear to be addressing just the "Sahaba" (for lack of a better term).
Yes I agree with Aalmakto... 4034 is not a stand alone verse in context with what brother Khyal quoted as per my understanding, but it is a part of a chapter. This chapter starts from 4023 and goes on...
And 3101, is like 1723 - 24. What if anyone don't have their parents alive?
At the moment I am still leaning towards the view that Muhammad is not the "last" as there are no verses that indicate otherwise (the opposing view have not posted anything conclusive). God has always sent messengers. If he has stopped than I think he would have clearly said so.
Have to tried understanding the verse that I have quoted before brother? i.e., 11120.
Please let me know what you understand. And most importantly, are you looking for Rasools or AlRasools. AlRasools are appointed by Allah and Rasools are self made, so please take a look at that point too.
InshaAllah, it may be of some help.
May Allah correct us where ever we goes wrong and guide us all towards the path that He has chosen for us. pr
Khan
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it is the whole umma, becuase if you look at the ayat before it is talking about the day of judgement
Each umma on the Day of judgment will be brought with the witness i.e. with its respective messenger; and the messenger will then say "O my God! My people have totally rejected the Quran."
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Some people dont see the need for any more messengers.
The messenger cannot inspire except by Gods leave. Any whom God chooses to be inspired by the messenger will recieve inspiration from the messenger.
It is not for God to speak to any human except threw inspiration or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. In 4251, a messenger is someone God might send to inspire anyone God pleases by His leave. In 4252, God inspired to you a revelation of His command. Made as a light to guide whomever We wish from among Our servants. Surely, you guide to a straight path. New messengers may be sent so that they can inspire. We need inspiration. To reject this messenger without knowledge is to reject God because the messenger is one way that God uses to speak to us. Thoe it seems that no more messengers will come, they will if God chooses to speak to the human using this method. There are three ways God speaks to the human. And threw a messenger is one way He does this.
Proof-
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is Most High, Wise.
God will send a messenger to inspire whomever He wills by His leave. Or He may speak to one by direct inspiration, or from behind a barrier. If God chooses to speak to you, it is not for Him to do so except threw the above mentioned methods.
peace
Such messengers are there in your town and in all languages; and in every nation; and in every capital cities. It is for the people of the particular town or nation or the people speaking the same lingua to identify their respective rasuls. And who shall identify their rasuls are those who have the knowledge of the Book already. Who shall reject the messengers are those who do not have the knowledge of the Book.
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Some people dont see the need for any more messengers.
4251 And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is Most High, Wise.
God will send a messenger to inspire whomever He wills by His leave. Or He may speak to one by direct inspiration, or from behind a barrier. If God chooses to speak to you, it is not for Him to do so except threw the above mentioned methods.
peace
Peace,
Can you tell me the First and the Second ways of Allah speaking to us? Ofcourse the third way you had already explained which is sensible and I agree. -
Peace Raj-ah and every one
First, Prophet Mohamed (PBUH) was the seal of Prophets and not Messengers--no more revelation after Quran .
Does that remind you with the Quranic stories in which God described killing and torturing of people who promote His Words?
May God Bless the Believers whom are preaching and protecting God's Words
Two Questions
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Allah says Muhammad was none other than a rasul; shall we then say he was the last Naby? How do you interpret this with such understanding as "the seal of the prophets" without contradicting the ayat 3 144?
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Is there an 'ayat' in quran wherein it states that Allah allowed a prophet to be demeaned before the world in such a way as torturing before death. Allah saved Ibrahim and Esa from such disgrace.
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Peace
That is also my view on this issue and I expressed it somewhere like this on some other thread... We just cannot appoint ourselves to be DIVINELY appointed messengers... We just follow the EXAMPLE of Muhammad, warn the people and call them to Al-Islam, the deen that GOD chose for mankind... In this way, anyone can be a messenger... However, not a DIVINELY APPOINTED MESSENGER...
Regards
Allah knows best...
When we say messengers, it is always devinely appointed! There are no self appointed messengers and they cannot be messengers in this way. In this way none shall be there as messengers. Can you kindly clarify your statement?
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salam,
its funny how people are willing to accept new messengers but will not accept rashad khalifa as one........... brickwallWe are worried only with regard to the messengers living today all around the globe with all linguistic populations that they shall not be overlooked! We pray to God to give us scriptural knowledge to identify the messengers.
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Peace Anna,
What's funny to me is how people often accept Dr. Rashad Khalifa's teachings, yet they reject him because the only thing they associate with his ideologies is the alleged removal of 2 verses from the Quran. If people actually looked at the authentic ideologies of Rashad instead of judging him and claiming that he removed Quranic verses, many of them would become believers
Peace,
Is it only an allegation? He did not remove the ayats? What is RK's ideology on purifying Quran from additon and deletion? 19? Where does quran say that code 19 is the criterion for assessing Quran? If only RK alleged to be a messenger could ponder the ayat 4 82 he would have understood the 19 are the guards appointed for the hell bound and hell dwellers, and not for assessing the quraninc verses. Let RK followers read and ponder 4 82 and reconsider if RK was misled.
Peace BelH,
This is completely wrong, brother, WRONG. The scripture does NOT say that nothing can be added to or deleted from only the Quran... What do I mean by this? Let's examine the scripture...What is your take on 2 85. We shall believe some verses and we shall reject some other verses; was RK a believer in such ideology? Where is code 19 prescibed by Allah here?
Surely, we have revealed this scripture, and surely, we will preserve it. (159)
It's absolutely ridiculous that people interpret this to be referring to the Quran specifically. This clearly says that it will be preserved by Allah because "we have revealed this scripture"... Didn't Allah also reveal the Torah and the Gospel? Yet, you say they have been altered.11.110 ; 41 45
We certainly gave the Book to Moses, but differences and disputes were caused therein Have you failed to take note of these ayats?Based on the context, this verse implies that ALL of God's scripture is preserved. So, why don't you believe the other scriptures to be preserved? Do you think God is a liar? Also, look at this scripture, which implies the same thing
You will still say God is a liar? will you not then come out of 19? See for yourself the contradiction to this fact which is entered below as your quote
The disbelievers rejected this message when it came to them, though it is a profound scripture. No falsehood can enter it, through addition or deletion, for it is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy. (4141-42)
This scripture states it even more plainly. It gives the statement (i.e. "No falsehood can enter it...", and then it gives the reason (i.e. "for/because it is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy". Now, since the Torah, Gospel, and Statute Book are all revelations from God, this means they are ALL preserved.
Now RK says computer is the "tablet" and 19 is the code format that Allah had prescribed for assessing the Quran and you still believe in it going much against 4 82 ?
What you are neglecting is the format in which they are preserved. According to 8522, they are kept secure in a "lawh mahfuz"/preserved tablet. So, the question is WHERE IS THIS TABLET? Is it on the Earth? Is it with Allah? Maybe you should ask yourself this. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that all the copies and translations of the scriptures would be preserved and kept from alteration. This is a ridiculous misinterpretation. It says the actual "revelations" of God (i.e. the ORIGINALS) would be preserved. For us, Allah has given us a way to determine the true words of His revelations and to separate them from the fabrications. With regards to the originals, do you know the locations of the original revelations of Allah, or do you know where the "preserved tablets" are located?
By the way, it's pretty interesting to me that this word (i.e. "lawh" has the same root as the word "lawaha", used in 7429, right before the words, "On it is nineteen" (7430). Is this a coincidence?
Yes, an outrageous coincidence! it is not only foul smelling but astonishing to believe that people are there to stick to bizzare notions and weird illusions.
Peace,
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Br Khyaletanzim,
It is clear from the verse 3 79 that all the Prophets who were given the Book, are endowed with the Wisdom and the Knowledge too; yet Allah says, " If you have doubt seek clarification from those who have the know before you (25 59 ; 10 94 ; 21 7 ; 6 114 )" And mostly the prophets were by themselves messengers. All that the prophets possessed was the humility and that they are not to be proud; towards this end musa was asked to follow the man of wisdom at the point where the 2 seas met. And Sulaiman was treated with the Throne of the Queen of Sabah at the wink of eye by a well endowed scripturally knowledgeable person; and when Sulaiman saw what was before him, he was awe struck and immediately said "Haza min fadhzhi rabbi" - This is the Grand Gift from my God! And this is to test me if I have been grateful to all that He had Blessed me with or I become envious of the person who had been endowed with such wisdom and power to execute, by Allah. This shows the humility and the fear for Allah that with which Nabi Sulaiman guarded himself against evil.
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Peace all,
I would appreciate if the students of the Quran could comment on this.734 And for every nation will be an allotted time; when their time is reached, they will not delay by one hour nor advance.
So every nation has an alloted time, until it is destroyed. This is a promise.
2859 And your Lord never annihilates the towns without sending a messenger to their capital, to recite Our revelations to them. And We never annihilate the towns unless its people are wicked
1715 Whoever is guided is guided for himself, and whoever is misguided is for his own loss. And no person shall carry the load of another, and We were not to punish until We send a messenger.
So we can conclude that God must continue sending messengers for "every" nation to be destroyed.
Before you post. Please only post opinions that are backed by Quranic verses. I am not interested in hearing personal opinions.
So one must presume the japanese were warned enough before The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki , and Germans before their cities were bombed or Sadam before Bagdad e.t.c
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So one must presume the japanese were warned enough before The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki , and Germans before their cities were bombed or Sadam before Bagdad e.t.c ?
Nice observation; we shall include in the line America, Britain, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, African countries; and many more nations are today forewarned of their imminent disaster and destruction. We do not know if the warnings are near or far. But the clouds are already hovering above these nations. Allah does have seized many of them with hunger and poverty, the American example is a very sure sign of this!
And Allah sets forth a parable America was safe and secure to which its means of subsistence come in abundance from every quarter; but it became ungrateful to Allah's favors, therefore Allah made it to taste the utmost degree of hunger and fear because of what they wrought.
Regards.
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Dear drfzal,
I cannot understand your question or reasoning. Please make your question or understanding clear.
Dear mmkhan,
I agree that in context it is a man saying this to the people of faro but I have also given my reasons how I understand the Quran's message. In my opinion Quran is not telling us stories just for entertainment. Each story is to guide us regarding the topic and behavior of people. All the stories contain reasoning and replies from the knowledgeable people or at some places by God himself.
Will you take the stories of Moses or Suleiman for the people of that time only? Quran is for Guidance so the stories in it are for guidance too. If we assume that stories part of Quran is not signs then sign will have no use or significance and quite a big part of Quran will become useless.Dear Anna and belH,
The problem is not with accepting khalifa as messenger or not. The system of God does not support that one should or can follow past messengers. Quran supports only living messenger within ones life. If no messenger is there to obey then Quran is the only Guide. Quran clearly states in 279 that we cannot take Guidance of God from another book except Quran and also tells that the complete message of Quran can only be understood by the people of understanding. This is very logical and practical statement without contradicting its message which is "to obey Allah and obey the messenger". Quran tells that everyone including prophets have to follow a messenger. Regarding the messenger every quality is clearly stated in Quran.
I read in this forum that many of the participants talk or ask about proofs from the messengers. I did not find Quran telling us that messengers has to prove themselves as messenger. His duty is only to explain clearly and nothing Else. No one is forced to obey messenger (true or false). It is the requirement of the system to do so but system does not force it in any way.
God clearly tells that if there are clear proofs then after those proofs believe in God will not even benefit those who have seen the proofs. This is because the basic is to believe in unseen which is the same message given in the following verses.
Please dont take this as a statement to encourage blind following. Believe in unseen without seeing is the idea which is only possible when one uses his reasoning.
4083
Free_Minds Then, when their messengers came to them with clear proofs, they were content with what they already had of the knowledge. And that which they ridiculed became their doom.
Khalifa When their messengers went to them with clear proofs, they rejoiced in the knowledge they had inherited, and the very things they ridiculed were the cause of their fall.4084
Free_Minds So when they saw Our might, they said "We believe in God Alone, and we reject all the partners we used to set up!"
Khalifa Subsequently, when they saw our retribution they said, "Now we believe in GOD ALONE, and we now disbelieve in the idol worship that we used to practice."4085
Free_Minds But their belief could not help them once they saw Our might. Such is God's way that has been established for His servants. And the rejecters were then totally in loss.
Khalifa Their belief then could not help them in the least, once they saw our retribution. Such is GOD's system that has been established to deal with His creatures; the disbelievers are always doomed.Regards.
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Dear Khyaletanzim,
Now we have to determine that what are the types of guidance and how many. I have found two kind of guidance?s which are -
- Basic guidance.
- Explained guidance.
Let?s start with the basic guidance. Basic guidance is given through the clear verses of the book of God (Quran) and the explained guidance is through knowledge. The following verse explained in detail about both the guidance.
'The verses of muhkamaat' are the verses that has in it the Hikmath of Allah. We have to ponder over them, growing and going much above the literal meaning of applied grammatical understanding. This is the basic with which you have to approach the muhkamaat verses. And therein is the guidance for those who reflect.
To start with can you explain your understanding on the Muhkamaat ayats? If my question to you is not clear ask me again; i am much obliged to rephrase it again.
regards.
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A Proof is an essential necessity
This is very logical and practical statement without contradicting its message which is "to obey Allah and obey the messenger". Quran tells that everyone including prophets have to follow a messenger. Regarding the messenger every quality is clearly stated in Quran. I read in this forum that many of the participants talk or ask about proofs from the messengers. I did not find Quran telling us that messengers has to prove themselves as messenger. His duty is only to explain clearly and nothing Else. No one is forced to obey messenger (true or false). It is the requirement of the system to do so but system does not force it in any way.
The messengers are sent to a fallen community. A Prophet is always a messenger too. The prophet is sent to the people of his own community with Allah's Proofs. The proofs are that they bring with them one or more extraordinary Signs from Allah; and the prophet lives among them a life with no shirk; and he testifies and stands witness to the earlier scriptures and the scriptures the people have with them; and lastly, brings to them the additional ayats or the messages from Allah to which the prophet himself had been made the perfect living model. A proof is much essential for the messenger to believe in the Unseen. But for Allah's leave no messenger brings any proof of evidence 13. 38. And for every proof shown to them to make them believe in the Unseen, there is a time determined; and when the time is barred then alone the doom befalls them. From Quran what we see is that essentially for a messenger/prophet a proof from Allah is always given.
God clearly tells that if there are clear proofs then after those proofs believe in God will not even benefit those who have seen the proofs. This is because the basic is to believe in unseen which is the same message given in the following verses. Believe in unseen without seeing is the idea which is only possible when one uses his reasoning.
According to Quran what we see is the heads of the fallen community ask for some proof or the other for their messengership; and it is Allah's way that He sends them not a messenger but with a clear proof. It is then they reject and ridicule and belie the messengers and their messages. For every thing there is a time predetermined for them to turn to belief in the Unseen and until then He allows them to have their way in amusement. And when the time reaches the deadline they were not allowed to live on the earth a second later. And their doom will not reach them a second earlier too. So Allah always say to the messengers " Ignore the ignorant; and bear with Me and be patient."
The belief that the belied swear by Allah when they see their doom shall never profit them. Their doom is the final proof for that community; and a greater proof for the following generations that they might fear their God. As a sign, here are the ayats you had quoted.
4083
Free_Minds Then, when their messengers came to them with clear proofs, they were content with what they already had of the knowledge. And that which they ridiculed became their doom.
Khalifa When their messengers went to them with clear proofs, they rejoiced in the knowledge they had inherited, and the very things they ridiculed were the cause of their fall.4084
Free_Minds So when they saw Our might, they said "We believe in God Alone, and we reject all the partners we used to set up!"
Khalifa Subsequently, when they saw our retribution they said, "Now we believe in GOD ALONE, and we now disbelieve in the idol worship that we used to practice."4085
Free_Minds But their belief could not help them once they saw Our might. Such is God's way that has been established for His servants. And the rejecters were then totally in loss.
Khalifa Their belief then could not help them in the least, once they saw our retribution. Such is GOD's system that has been established to deal with His creatures; the disbelievers are always doomed.Regards.
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Dear drfzal,
Muhkamat literally can mean
Arabic - English
arbiter , arbitrator , referee , jury , umpire
, , tenacious , confirmed , correct , corrected , fixed , rectified , precise , precision , checked , accurate , true , compact , tightened , checked out , driven forward
tightly shut , impermeable , hermetic , impervious , shut tight , airtight
, cohesive , well-knit , well-set , soldered , coherent , coalesced , fused , tenaciousI take muhkam as precise, accurate or clear. " the signs(verses) which when translated give precise meanings or don't create confusion in understanding regarding the words used." or in other words when anyone translates it it does not differ in its understanding.
The messengers are sent to a fallen community.
Dear where did you have this idea? As far as my knowledge is concerned, Quran says nothing of such kind. We and prophets are told to follow the messenger at many places in Quran. will this be considered as whole humanity is a fallen community?
A Prophet is always a messenger too. The prophet is sent to the people of his own community with Allah's Proofs. The proofs are that they bring with them one or more extraordinary Signs from Allah;
What do you mean Allah?s proofs? The word ayat means sign and bayyanat means miracles or clear proof. Quran do say that when messenger come with clear proofs then the decision is finalized but if you take it as every messenger brings the miracles to prove then I don?t make this kind of assumption form those signs. This is what I showed you in the verses which clearly state that the miracle does not benefit a person in any way. Same thing is proved throughout the history. The following verse is another way of showing the same thing.
4153
Free_Minds The people of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a scripture from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said "Let us see God plainly!", so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.
please keep in mind that Deen according to my understanding is system and i always keep the translations within the linguistic boundaries and try to understand a system.
Regards.
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Dear Khyaletanzim,
Dear drfzal,
What do you mean Allah?s proofs? The word ayat means sign and bayyanat means miracles or clear proof. Quran do say that when messenger come with clear proofs then the decision is finalized but if you take it as every messenger brings the miracles to prove then I don?t make this kind of assumption form those signs. This is what I showed you in the verses which clearly state that the miracle does not benefit a person in any way. Same thing is proved throughout the history. The following verse is another way of showing the same thing.
If quran is guidance to man, as proof, its ayats as signs shall guide him day in and day out delivering him from the problems he is facing. And if they fail to get the signs from the ayats, then the messengers are a must for such communities that are in the fallen state, afflicted with suffering and adversity. For, guidance is essential only when we are fallen; Our heartfelt prayers when we fall seriously ill seeking from Allah for relief, He shows the way and we are saved from the testing periods. Allah says "What benefit does He gain by putting you to adversity if only you are a people, believing and thankful.
And He further says, "We do not wrong them but they wronged themselves." We see individually every one falls sick and as a whole, the community is sick in all walks of life. Today palestine, US, UK, KSA and many, many nations as a whole, all over the world is sick and fallen; everywhere there are commotion and chaos; and killing and injustice rule the roost. But for the devout prayers it is impossible for the conscience oriented people to have some solace; Allah accepts their prayers - chooses from among them and sends their own people as the messengers to the fallen community, as a last chance to show them the signs that are hidden in the ayats of Quran, as manifest! They go to people with glad tidings and signs from Allah and with the warning of doom if they reject. And when the people turn away or belie the messengers then the spell of doom is cast upon the people, arrogant. The earthquakes causing destruction round the globe are the signs of Allah. Such will be His torment and you shall not find any change in the way of Allah.
Dear where did you have this idea? As far as my knowledge is concerned, Quran says nothing of such kind. We and prophets are told to follow the messenger at many places in Quran. will this be considered as whole humanity is a fallen community?
006.042
Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.I take muhkam as precise, accurate or clear. " the signs(verses) which when translated give precise meanings or don't create confusion in understanding regarding the words used." or in other words when anyone translates it it does not differ in its understanding.
Sign means 'the hidden truth'. We need to understand the signs through pondering. The understanding of the signs are always contextual, which are the best of all examples to drive the point home. So dictionary, thesaurus and grammar based meanings and translations are out of context thus will be useless for guidance. The hidden signs are to be transformed in the mind into the real time truth. If there are 6 billion people in the world each individual has as many problems as he can earn from all quarters of his life.
Now if Quran is the Guide, and every verse in it is the Universal Truth then it is well construed, each ayat of the Quran is a very sure guidance for each of the 6 billion people that shall for sure, help them overcome from all their problems. Their understanding will be different and vary from individual to individual; and from moment to moment. In this way if you start writing the words of Allah the seas as ink will become dry and trees as pens will become extinct and yet Allah's words will not end.
please keep in mind that Deen according to my understanding is system and i always keep the translations within the linguistic boundaries and try to understand a system.
I understand and keep in mind we are diametrically opposite to each other. And thanks brother.
Regards.
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Dear drfzal,
Dear as you have accepted at the end of your post that "I understand and keep in mind we are diametrically opposite to each other. And thanks brother." The reason for complete opposition is because you comment without considering meanings, structure and other ayahs. What you explain at one point contradicts you at the other or with some verse.
Can you tell me why God Himself told that this Quran is in Arabic language? Do you think that God did not know that the reader will not be able to know what the language of Quran is? You yourself said "Sign means 'the hidden truth'. We need to understand the signs through pondering." Please see the meanings of sign in English. Your interpretation is half truth. Even if I take this as complete truth then lot of questions will rise and one will be what Quran is for? Verse 37 clearly differentiated categories of signs. How do I come to know that? This was only due to Arabic and English understanding. Signs (ayat) are for guidance but if a person does not have the basic knowledge of sign then he can get confused easily. This is why Quran has told all the basic rules within Quran how to understand Quran and one of the basic rule is to stick with clear sign.The problem with you is that you start pondering in a strange way which is beyond my grasp. My dear sign is sign it can be clear or vague. This is why words like bayyanat and mutaashabihat has been used regarding ayat or wahi. Wahi is explained in Quran clearly. Sign is always to tell something if it is in the written shape then only those who have the linguistic knowledge can understand the true meanings. Here is an example
006.042 Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.
With the above verse you tried to prove that Messenger is sent to the fallen community and this is completely strange understanding and it seems that is due to two reasons, either not pondering or having the linguistic knowledge because if you read the sentence then you will see that
1.God is telling that ?we send messengers and we afflict? and this is Gods doing and not ours or people.
2.You took suffering and adversity as fallen signs where God is clearly telling us that what He afflicts us is to learn humility.
3.I don?t know what do you understood with the word humility. Kindly explain to me what your understanding of ?humility? is.I hope know you will be able to understand why we are diametrically opposite. The above verse does not support your understanding but even if I consider as per your understanding then this will be a clear contradiction to the ayaat where God tells all the prophets to follow the messenger. And ?No contradiction? is another basic told by Quran to understand Quran.
The other point you raised is that Quran is Guide for all. Brother again the problem is that you missed the verses where Quran tells that the same Quran misguides too. It tells in the beginning that this book is guide to whom? I hope you remember that too.
Regards.