I want to know the truth about what the Quran says about messengers

[drfazl]

Peace

That is also my view on this issue and I expressed it somewhere like this on some other thread... We just cannot appoint ourselves to be DIVINELY appointed messengers... We just follow the EXAMPLE of Muhammad, warn the people and call them to Al-Islam, the deen that GOD chose for mankind... In this way, anyone can be a messenger... However, not a DIVINELY APPOINTED MESSENGER...

Regards

Allah knows best...

When we say messengers, it is always devinely appointed! There are no self appointed messengers and they cannot be messengers in this way. In this way none shall be there as messengers. Can you kindly clarify your statement?

.

[drfazl]

salam,
its funny how people are willing to accept new messengers but will not accept rashad khalifa as one........... brickwall

We are worried only with regard to the messengers living today all around the globe with all linguistic populations that they shall not be overlooked! We pray to God to give us scriptural knowledge to identify the messengers.

.

[drfazl]

Peace Anna,

What's funny to me is how people often accept Dr. Rashad Khalifa's teachings, yet they reject him because the only thing they associate with his ideologies is the alleged removal of 2 verses from the Quran. If people actually looked at the authentic ideologies of Rashad instead of judging him and claiming that he removed Quranic verses, many of them would become believers

Peace,

Is it only an allegation? He did not remove the ayats? What is RK's ideology on purifying Quran from additon and deletion? 19? Where does quran say that code 19 is the criterion for assessing Quran? If only RK alleged to be a messenger could ponder the ayat 4 82 he would have understood the 19 are the guards appointed for the hell bound and hell dwellers, and not for assessing the quraninc verses. Let RK followers read and ponder 4 82 and reconsider if RK was misled.

Peace BelH,
This is completely wrong, brother, WRONG. The scripture does NOT say that nothing can be added to or deleted from only the Quran... What do I mean by this? Let's examine the scripture...

What is your take on 2 85. We shall believe some verses and we shall reject some other verses; was RK a believer in such ideology? Where is code 19 prescibed by Allah here?

Surely, we have revealed this scripture, and surely, we will preserve it. (159)
It's absolutely ridiculous that people interpret this to be referring to the Quran specifically. This clearly says that it will be preserved by Allah because "we have revealed this scripture"... Didn't Allah also reveal the Torah and the Gospel? Yet, you say they have been altered.

11.110 ; 41 45
We certainly gave the Book to Moses, but differences and disputes were caused therein Have you failed to take note of these ayats?

Based on the context, this verse implies that ALL of God's scripture is preserved. So, why don't you believe the other scriptures to be preserved? Do you think God is a liar? Also, look at this scripture, which implies the same thing

You will still say God is a liar? will you not then come out of 19? See for yourself the contradiction to this fact which is entered below as your quote

The disbelievers rejected this message when it came to them, though it is a profound scripture. No falsehood can enter it, through addition or deletion, for it is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy. (4141-42)

This scripture states it even more plainly. It gives the statement (i.e. "No falsehood can enter it...&quot, and then it gives the reason (i.e. "for/because it is a revelation from the Wise, the Praiseworthy&quot. Now, since the Torah, Gospel, and Statute Book are all revelations from God, this means they are ALL preserved.

Now RK says computer is the "tablet" and 19 is the code format that Allah had prescribed for assessing the Quran and you still believe in it going much against 4 82 ?

What you are neglecting is the format in which they are preserved. According to 8522, they are kept secure in a "lawh mahfuz"/preserved tablet. So, the question is WHERE IS THIS TABLET? Is it on the Earth? Is it with Allah? Maybe you should ask yourself this. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that all the copies and translations of the scriptures would be preserved and kept from alteration. This is a ridiculous misinterpretation. It says the actual "revelations" of God (i.e. the ORIGINALS) would be preserved. For us, Allah has given us a way to determine the true words of His revelations and to separate them from the fabrications. With regards to the originals, do you know the locations of the original revelations of Allah, or do you know where the "preserved tablets" are located?

By the way, it's pretty interesting to me that this word (i.e. "lawh&quot has the same root as the word "lawaha", used in 7429, right before the words, "On it is nineteen" (7430). Is this a coincidence?

Yes, an outrageous coincidence! it is not only foul smelling but astonishing to believe that people are there to stick to bizzare notions and weird illusions.

Peace,

.

[drfazl]

Br Khyaletanzim,

It is clear from the verse 3 79 that all the Prophets who were given the Book, are endowed with the Wisdom and the Knowledge too; yet Allah says, " If you have doubt seek clarification from those who have the know before you (25 59 ; 10 94 ; 21 7 ; 6 114 )" And mostly the prophets were by themselves messengers. All that the prophets possessed was the humility and that they are not to be proud; towards this end musa was asked to follow the man of wisdom at the point where the 2 seas met. And Sulaiman was treated with the Throne of the Queen of Sabah at the wink of eye by a well endowed scripturally knowledgeable person; and when Sulaiman saw what was before him, he was awe struck and immediately said "Haza min fadhzhi rabbi" - This is the Grand Gift from my God! And this is to test me if I have been grateful to all that He had Blessed me with or I become envious of the person who had been endowed with such wisdom and power to execute, by Allah. This shows the humility and the fear for Allah that with which Nabi Sulaiman guarded himself against evil.

.

[unknownuser]

Peace all,
I would appreciate if the students of the Quran could comment on this.

734 And for every nation will be an allotted time; when their time is reached, they will not delay by one hour nor advance.

So every nation has an alloted time, until it is destroyed. This is a promise.

2859 And your Lord never annihilates the towns without sending a messenger to their capital, to recite Our revelations to them. And We never annihilate the towns unless its people are wicked

1715 Whoever is guided is guided for himself, and whoever is misguided is for his own loss. And no person shall carry the load of another, and We were not to punish until We send a messenger.

So we can conclude that God must continue sending messengers for "every" nation to be destroyed.

Before you post. Please only post opinions that are backed by Quranic verses. I am not interested in hearing personal opinions.

So one must presume the japanese were warned enough before The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki , and Germans before their cities were bombed or Sadam before Bagdad e.t.c

?

[drfazl]

So one must presume the japanese were warned enough before The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki , and Germans before their cities were bombed or Sadam before Bagdad e.t.c ?

Nice observation; we shall include in the line America, Britain, Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Palestine, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, African countries; and many more nations are today forewarned of their imminent disaster and destruction. We do not know if the warnings are near or far. But the clouds are already hovering above these nations. Allah does have seized many of them with hunger and poverty, the American example is a very sure sign of this!

And Allah sets forth a parable America was safe and secure to which its means of subsistence come in abundance from every quarter; but it became ungrateful to Allah's favors, therefore Allah made it to taste the utmost degree of hunger and fear because of what they wrought.

Regards.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

I cannot understand your question or reasoning. Please make your question or understanding clear.

Dear mmkhan,

I agree that in context it is a man saying this to the people of faro but I have also given my reasons how I understand the Quran's message. In my opinion Quran is not telling us stories just for entertainment. Each story is to guide us regarding the topic and behavior of people. All the stories contain reasoning and replies from the knowledgeable people or at some places by God himself.
Will you take the stories of Moses or Suleiman for the people of that time only? Quran is for Guidance so the stories in it are for guidance too. If we assume that stories part of Quran is not signs then sign will have no use or significance and quite a big part of Quran will become useless.

Dear Anna and belH,

The problem is not with accepting khalifa as messenger or not. The system of God does not support that one should or can follow past messengers. Quran supports only living messenger within ones life. If no messenger is there to obey then Quran is the only Guide. Quran clearly states in 279 that we cannot take Guidance of God from another book except Quran and also tells that the complete message of Quran can only be understood by the people of understanding. This is very logical and practical statement without contradicting its message which is "to obey Allah and obey the messenger". Quran tells that everyone including prophets have to follow a messenger. Regarding the messenger every quality is clearly stated in Quran.

I read in this forum that many of the participants talk or ask about proofs from the messengers. I did not find Quran telling us that messengers has to prove themselves as messenger. His duty is only to explain clearly and nothing Else. No one is forced to obey messenger (true or false). It is the requirement of the system to do so but system does not force it in any way.

God clearly tells that if there are clear proofs then after those proofs believe in God will not even benefit those who have seen the proofs. This is because the basic is to believe in unseen which is the same message given in the following verses.

Please dont take this as a statement to encourage blind following. Believe in unseen without seeing is the idea which is only possible when one uses his reasoning.

4083

Free_Minds Then, when their messengers came to them with clear proofs, they were content with what they already had of the knowledge. And that which they ridiculed became their doom.
Khalifa When their messengers went to them with clear proofs, they rejoiced in the knowledge they had inherited, and the very things they ridiculed were the cause of their fall.

4084

Free_Minds So when they saw Our might, they said "We believe in God Alone, and we reject all the partners we used to set up!"
Khalifa Subsequently, when they saw our retribution they said, "Now we believe in GOD ALONE, and we now disbelieve in the idol worship that we used to practice."

4085

Free_Minds But their belief could not help them once they saw Our might. Such is God's way that has been established for His servants. And the rejecters were then totally in loss.
Khalifa Their belief then could not help them in the least, once they saw our retribution. Such is GOD's system that has been established to deal with His creatures; the disbelievers are always doomed.

Regards.

[drfazl]

Dear Khyaletanzim,

Now we have to determine that what are the types of guidance and how many. I have found two kind of guidance?s which are -

1. Basic guidance.
2. Explained guidance.
   Let?s start with the basic guidance. Basic guidance is given through the clear verses of the book of God (Quran) and the explained guidance is through knowledge. The following verse explained in detail about both the guidance.

'The verses of muhkamaat' are the verses that has in it the Hikmath of Allah. We have to ponder over them, growing and going much above the literal meaning of applied grammatical understanding. This is the basic with which you have to approach the muhkamaat verses. And therein is the guidance for those who reflect.

To start with can you explain your understanding on the Muhkamaat ayats? If my question to you is not clear ask me again; i am much obliged to rephrase it again.

regards.
.

[drfazl]

A Proof is an essential necessity

This is very logical and practical statement without contradicting its message which is "to obey Allah and obey the messenger". Quran tells that everyone including prophets have to follow a messenger. Regarding the messenger every quality is clearly stated in Quran. I read in this forum that many of the participants talk or ask about proofs from the messengers. I did not find Quran telling us that messengers has to prove themselves as messenger. His duty is only to explain clearly and nothing Else. No one is forced to obey messenger (true or false). It is the requirement of the system to do so but system does not force it in any way.

The messengers are sent to a fallen community. A Prophet is always a messenger too. The prophet is sent to the people of his own community with Allah's Proofs. The proofs are that they bring with them one or more extraordinary Signs from Allah; and the prophet lives among them a life with no shirk; and he testifies and stands witness to the earlier scriptures and the scriptures the people have with them; and lastly, brings to them the additional ayats or the messages from Allah to which the prophet himself had been made the perfect living model. A proof is much essential for the messenger to believe in the Unseen. But for Allah's leave no messenger brings any proof of evidence 13. 38. And for every proof shown to them to make them believe in the Unseen, there is a time determined; and when the time is barred then alone the doom befalls them. From Quran what we see is that essentially for a messenger/prophet a proof from Allah is always given.

God clearly tells that if there are clear proofs then after those proofs believe in God will not even benefit those who have seen the proofs. This is because the basic is to believe in unseen which is the same message given in the following verses. Believe in unseen without seeing is the idea which is only possible when one uses his reasoning.

According to Quran what we see is the heads of the fallen community ask for some proof or the other for their messengership; and it is Allah's way that He sends them not a messenger but with a clear proof. It is then they reject and ridicule and belie the messengers and their messages. For every thing there is a time predetermined for them to turn to belief in the Unseen and until then He allows them to have their way in amusement. And when the time reaches the deadline they were not allowed to live on the earth a second later. And their doom will not reach them a second earlier too. So Allah always say to the messengers " Ignore the ignorant; and bear with Me and be patient."

The belief that the belied swear by Allah when they see their doom shall never profit them. Their doom is the final proof for that community; and a greater proof for the following generations that they might fear their God. As a sign, here are the ayats you had quoted.

4083

Free_Minds Then, when their messengers came to them with clear proofs, they were content with what they already had of the knowledge. And that which they ridiculed became their doom.
Khalifa When their messengers went to them with clear proofs, they rejoiced in the knowledge they had inherited, and the very things they ridiculed were the cause of their fall.

4084

Free_Minds So when they saw Our might, they said "We believe in God Alone, and we reject all the partners we used to set up!"
Khalifa Subsequently, when they saw our retribution they said, "Now we believe in GOD ALONE, and we now disbelieve in the idol worship that we used to practice."

4085

Free_Minds But their belief could not help them once they saw Our might. Such is God's way that has been established for His servants. And the rejecters were then totally in loss.
Khalifa Their belief then could not help them in the least, once they saw our retribution. Such is GOD's system that has been established to deal with His creatures; the disbelievers are always doomed.

Regards.

.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

Muhkamat literally can mean

Arabic - English

arbiter , arbitrator , referee , jury , umpire

, , tenacious , confirmed , correct , corrected , fixed , rectified , precise , precision , checked , accurate , true , compact , tightened , checked out , driven forward
tightly shut , impermeable , hermetic , impervious , shut tight , airtight
, cohesive , well-knit , well-set , soldered , coherent , coalesced , fused , tenacious

I take muhkam as precise, accurate or clear. " the signs(verses) which when translated give precise meanings or don't create confusion in understanding regarding the words used." or in other words when anyone translates it it does not differ in its understanding.

The messengers are sent to a fallen community.

Dear where did you have this idea? As far as my knowledge is concerned, Quran says nothing of such kind. We and prophets are told to follow the messenger at many places in Quran. will this be considered as whole humanity is a fallen community?

A Prophet is always a messenger too. The prophet is sent to the people of his own community with Allah's Proofs. The proofs are that they bring with them one or more extraordinary Signs from Allah;

What do you mean Allah?s proofs? The word ayat means sign and bayyanat means miracles or clear proof. Quran do say that when messenger come with clear proofs then the decision is finalized but if you take it as every messenger brings the miracles to prove then I don?t make this kind of assumption form those signs. This is what I showed you in the verses which clearly state that the miracle does not benefit a person in any way. Same thing is proved throughout the history. The following verse is another way of showing the same thing.

4153

Free_Minds The people of the Scripture ask you to bring down to them a scripture from the heavens. They had asked Moses for even more than that, for they said "Let us see God plainly!", so the lightning bolt took them for their wickedness. Then they took the calf after the clarity had come to them, and We pardoned them for this; We gave Moses a clear authority.

please keep in mind that Deen according to my understanding is system and i always keep the translations within the linguistic boundaries and try to understand a system.

Regards.

[drfazl]

Dear Khyaletanzim,

Dear drfzal,

What do you mean Allah?s proofs? The word ayat means sign and bayyanat means miracles or clear proof. Quran do say that when messenger come with clear proofs then the decision is finalized but if you take it as every messenger brings the miracles to prove then I don?t make this kind of assumption form those signs. This is what I showed you in the verses which clearly state that the miracle does not benefit a person in any way. Same thing is proved throughout the history. The following verse is another way of showing the same thing.

If quran is guidance to man, as proof, its ayats as signs shall guide him day in and day out delivering him from the problems he is facing. And if they fail to get the signs from the ayats, then the messengers are a must for such communities that are in the fallen state, afflicted with suffering and adversity. For, guidance is essential only when we are fallen; Our heartfelt prayers when we fall seriously ill seeking from Allah for relief, He shows the way and we are saved from the testing periods. Allah says "What benefit does He gain by putting you to adversity if only you are a people, believing and thankful.

And He further says, "We do not wrong them but they wronged themselves." We see individually every one falls sick and as a whole, the community is sick in all walks of life. Today palestine, US, UK, KSA and many, many nations as a whole, all over the world is sick and fallen; everywhere there are commotion and chaos; and killing and injustice rule the roost. But for the devout prayers it is impossible for the conscience oriented people to have some solace; Allah accepts their prayers - chooses from among them and sends their own people as the messengers to the fallen community, as a last chance to show them the signs that are hidden in the ayats of Quran, as manifest! They go to people with glad tidings and signs from Allah and with the warning of doom if they reject. And when the people turn away or belie the messengers then the spell of doom is cast upon the people, arrogant. The earthquakes causing destruction round the globe are the signs of Allah. Such will be His torment and you shall not find any change in the way of Allah.

Dear where did you have this idea? As far as my knowledge is concerned, Quran says nothing of such kind. We and prophets are told to follow the messenger at many places in Quran. will this be considered as whole humanity is a fallen community?

006.042
Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.

I take muhkam as precise, accurate or clear. " the signs(verses) which when translated give precise meanings or don't create confusion in understanding regarding the words used." or in other words when anyone translates it it does not differ in its understanding.

Sign means 'the hidden truth'. We need to understand the signs through pondering. The understanding of the signs are always contextual, which are the best of all examples to drive the point home. So dictionary, thesaurus and grammar based meanings and translations are out of context thus will be useless for guidance. The hidden signs are to be transformed in the mind into the real time truth. If there are 6 billion people in the world each individual has as many problems as he can earn from all quarters of his life.

Now if Quran is the Guide, and every verse in it is the Universal Truth then it is well construed, each ayat of the Quran is a very sure guidance for each of the 6 billion people that shall for sure, help them overcome from all their problems. Their understanding will be different and vary from individual to individual; and from moment to moment. In this way if you start writing the words of Allah the seas as ink will become dry and trees as pens will become extinct and yet Allah's words will not end.

please keep in mind that Deen according to my understanding is system and i always keep the translations within the linguistic boundaries and try to understand a system.

I understand and keep in mind we are diametrically opposite to each other. And thanks brother.

Regards.
.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

Dear as you have accepted at the end of your post that "I understand and keep in mind we are diametrically opposite to each other. And thanks brother." The reason for complete opposition is because you comment without considering meanings, structure and other ayahs. What you explain at one point contradicts you at the other or with some verse.
Can you tell me why God Himself told that this Quran is in Arabic language? Do you think that God did not know that the reader will not be able to know what the language of Quran is? You yourself said "Sign means 'the hidden truth'. We need to understand the signs through pondering." Please see the meanings of sign in English. Your interpretation is half truth. Even if I take this as complete truth then lot of questions will rise and one will be what Quran is for? Verse 37 clearly differentiated categories of signs. How do I come to know that? This was only due to Arabic and English understanding. Signs (ayat) are for guidance but if a person does not have the basic knowledge of sign then he can get confused easily. This is why Quran has told all the basic rules within Quran how to understand Quran and one of the basic rule is to stick with clear sign.

The problem with you is that you start pondering in a strange way which is beyond my grasp. My dear sign is sign it can be clear or vague. This is why words like bayyanat and mutaashabihat has been used regarding ayat or wahi. Wahi is explained in Quran clearly. Sign is always to tell something if it is in the written shape then only those who have the linguistic knowledge can understand the true meanings. Here is an example

006.042 Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.

With the above verse you tried to prove that Messenger is sent to the fallen community and this is completely strange understanding and it seems that is due to two reasons, either not pondering or having the linguistic knowledge because if you read the sentence then you will see that

1.God is telling that ?we send messengers and we afflict? and this is Gods doing and not ours or people.
2.You took suffering and adversity as fallen signs where God is clearly telling us that what He afflicts us is to learn humility.
3.I don?t know what do you understood with the word humility. Kindly explain to me what your understanding of ?humility? is.

I hope know you will be able to understand why we are diametrically opposite. The above verse does not support your understanding but even if I consider as per your understanding then this will be a clear contradiction to the ayaat where God tells all the prophets to follow the messenger. And ?No contradiction? is another basic told by Quran to understand Quran.

The other point you raised is that Quran is Guide for all. Brother again the problem is that you missed the verses where Quran tells that the same Quran misguides too. It tells in the beginning that this book is guide to whom? I hope you remember that too.

Regards.

[drfazl]

Dear drfzal,

The reason for complete opposition is because you comment without considering meanings, structure and other ayahs. What you explain at one point contradicts you at the other or with some verse.

You did not elaborate or did even show where my contradictions were. There are only two things about why you had come to the above conclusion. Either it is that you can understand only the way you think; or you take it for granted whatever comes to your mind alone is right. Both ways are bad. You consider only the dictionary meaning and the grammatical structure to be applied to an ayah whereas I ponder and take the hidden truth for appreciation and application with respect to day to day life. This is the reason why you see contradiction and for the same reason I told you that were in opposite directions. I take the hidden meanings and use it in my life for my success; and you stick to the dictionary and its literal meanings for discussions and so there is literal understanding which you find as negative to the hidden truth. There is no contradiction in my writing between the various ayahs. If only you can point out I am sure you will be made to understand the streamline in my explanations.

Can you tell me why God Himself told that this Quran is in Arabic language? Do you think that God did not know that the reader will not be able to know what the language of Quran is? You yourself said "Sign means 'the hidden truth'. We need to understand the signs through pondering." Please see the meanings of sign in English; Your interpretation is half truth. .

Again the same problem! The literal understanding!

Even if I take this as complete truth then a lot of questions will rise and one will be what Quran is for? Verse 37 clearly differentiated categories of signs. How do I come to know that? This was only due to Arabic and English understanding.

The literal meanings take you nowhere. Whole quran is Allah's Sings! Even if you are an Arab, well versed in Arabic, ponder away from the literal meanings of thesaurus and enter into the signs of Allah and try understand what He conveys by the literal words found in the ayah you read. Recite and rehearse it and verify and stand testimony to what you utter.

Signs (ayat) are for guidance but if a person does not have the basic knowledge of sign then he can get confused easily. This is why Quran has told all the basic rules within Quran how to understand Quran and one of the basic rule is to stick with clear sign.

Not the basic knowledge of Sign; but the basic appreciation of the Truth in righteousness when you ponder each ayat. Only this approach alone can conduct your life with no strife. The basic rules the Quran says is Before you start The Reading, seek from me the protection against shaitaan. And Ponder and Recite; and just do not keep on reading. And this is the Book in Arabic for you to verify and to secure yourself in the Soul and the Source of Quran.

The problem with you is that you start pondering in a strange way which is beyond my grasp. My dear sign is sign it can be clear or vague.

I understand your problem. I cannot speak signs to you, but be more wordy and literal. Sign is always a signal, conveying a message hidden in it; it is revealed to those who ponder in righteousness. A sign is always signaling to start on the right course of thinking. To start with it seems vague but as you proceed it will become clear. A sign is meant to carry one towards this end. Hence a sign only seems it is not clear at the outset. There is nothing like vague signs and clear signs as you had mentioned. Just think for yourself if the problem is with me or with you who go by the dictionary and literal meaning which taken as such does not reveal the truth at all.

Sign is always to tell something if it is in the written shape then only those who have the linguistic knowledge can understand the true meanings. Here is an example

006.042 Before thee We sent messengers to many nations, and We afflicted the nations with suffering and adversity, that they might learn humility.

With the above verse you tried to prove that Messenger is sent to the fallen community and this is completely strange understanding and it seems that is due to two reasons, either not pondering or having the linguistic knowledge because if you read the sentence then you will see that

1.God is telling that ?we send messengers and we afflict? and this is Gods doing and not ours or people.
2.You took suffering and adversity as fallen signs where God is clearly telling us that what He afflicts us is to learn humility.
3.I don?t know what do you understood with the word humility. Kindly explain to me what your understanding of ?humility? is.

To the first one
Allah says we do not wrong any; but they wrong themselves.
Any distress that comes to you is due to what their own hands have earned.
Allah gains not by your punishment, if you are grateful and you believe?

Who was the reason for affliction? Ponder if it is God who gave? Or it is you who earn? You have fallen from the Grace of Allah.

To the second one
You cannot act smart and be Humble always or you will be made to learn the humility for what your hands had wrought.
Humility is the quality of being humble.

So what you want to teach now that you have learnt the meaning of humility? Your problem is you think you are above all and do not even care to look into your dictionary to learn humility. This is the reason why I said we are opposites of each other.

The other point you raised is that Quran is Guide for all. Brother again the problem is that you missed the verses where Quran tells that the same Quran misguides too. It tells in the beginning that this book is guide to whom? I hope you remember that too.

Please write your understanding clear before asking question. Any way I will answer you this time. He guides all those who fear His Signs! and all those who are humble! Everybody has such qualities in him; so it is meant for all. I will ask you to be original and write of your understanding and never repeat what the dictionary says.

Regards.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

My dear I have accepted what you have quoted that we are completely opposite and I have given an example but you made Quran contradictory again while explaining your deeper or hidden meanings understanding. I am not against the pondering but I told you in my post that pondering on signs without the basic understanding can lead to confusion and contradiction. Before I tried to keep my post short but it seems that you need all the verses to understand my point clearly. I am going to try again by giving all the verse regarding that matter and show you how you contradict. Let me show you why I take such an approach for understanding Quran.

To the first one
Allah says we do not wrong any; but they wrong themselves.
Any distress that comes to you is due to what their own hands have earned.
Allah gains not by your punishment, if you are grateful and you believe?

I hope that the above statements were taken from the following verses.

3117

Free_Minds The example of what they spend in this world is like a wind in which there is a frost; it afflicts the field of the people who wronged themselves, and thus destroys it. God did not wrong them, but it was their souls that they wronged.

3036

Free_Minds And if We grant the people a taste of mercy, they become happy with it, but if evil afflicts them for what they have done, they become in despair!

4147

Free_Minds What would God want with your punishment if you were only thankful and believed? God is Appreciative, Knowledgeable.

Now if you see the Arabic in your references then you don?t see here the words like and but the words used there are and . If you consider same meanings for all the words used then the result will be what you are trying to advocate.

My dear there is a big difference in understanding of those words. Maybe in practical terms you don?t feel the difference but there is a big difference when you ponder only on this simple rule that Quran is in Arabic.

Now see the following verse.
2214

Free_Minds Or did you expect that you would enter Paradise, while the example of those who were before you came to you; they were stricken with adversity and hardship, and they were shaken until the messenger and those who believed with him said "When is God's victory?" Yes indeed, God's victory is near.

If you pay attention to the above verse then you will see that God includes messenger for suffering and adversity too. Do you think that it is possible that messenger would have done something wrong to earn that?

Now observe the following verse where it has been made clear what is the difference between , and , . The difference becomes when ?to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity,?

2177

2177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah.fearing.

I hope now you will understand where you contradicted and how. My dear adversity and suffering is for the Good ones as a trial from God and wrath and punishment is for bad ones for their bad deeds. Situation may seem to be same in practical life and the only way to differentiate between those two situations is patience and denial. The good ones remain patient and bad ones complain and more hard in denial.

I can give answer for understanding of Quran in the same manner too. For now I will leave you with the hint only. Quran has basic for all but complete understanding for some. If you don?t understand from this hint let me know I will make it clear for you the same way.

Regards.

[drfazl]

Dear khyaletanzim,

Please read this! Allah guides all those who fear His Signs! and all those who are humble! Everybody has such qualities in him; so it is meant for all. Whoso reject such qualities time and again, habitually, they are the wrong doers; not who mends himself; prophets and messengers always correct themselves in the very beginning of their wrongs! Messengers are warned by Allah in many instances and forgiven them all including prophet Thunnoon and raised them even to a greater degree of height after that. May I ask you to express that is original from Allah to you, as His reward for pondering and seeking; and please write that what you understand from Him in this way; and come off of the habit of repeating what the dictionary and grammar teaches you. Dictionary does not show way and is not life but understanding does and makes life easy.

Dear drfzal,

I am not against the pondering but I told you in my post that pondering on signs without the basic understanding can lead to confusion and contradiction.

The base for clarity from confusion itself is pondering and reflecting; for confusion due to literal understanding is most prevailing and well accepted affliction that has plagued the majority population of the globe. You have to steer clear of this basic linguistic affliction taught through dictionaries and further, such meaningless attitude made rigid using their grammars. The very reason why we ponder is that we are not convinced with the traditional and conventional meanings that leads to confusion. If confusion is your base then you build a house in the air without its foundation i.e., the clarity of thought.

Before I tried to keep my post short but it seems that you need all the verses to understand my point clearly. I am going to try again by giving all the verse regarding that matter and show you how you contradict. Let me show you why I take such an approach for understanding Quran.

Your approach in this way i.e., mingling of various verses as a group and then understand them based on dictionary and grammar itself is wrong! The real guidance to the presenting situation for an individual is different in different moments of time; and realize that a single verse give varied meanings in different periods of time when we read the same verse again and again. Such varying meanings are the revelations and not contradictions as normally people think. And further, this is the proof indeed that in every trying situation of an individual, as guidance from Allah a single verse of Quran can reveal him the Way, sure and clear. in the same way if 6 billion people are there, a single verse can reveal 6 billion ways of delivering each of them from his troublesome situation. If situation changes again, the same verse can multifold into as many number of times as the situation necessitates. In this way even if there are seven seas as ink, and the trees of the whole world turn to pens, yet, Allah's words - revelations wii not be over.

Reply to this before we go further.

Regards.

.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

There is nothing to answer from me. You still stand at the same place and I don't have the ability to make you understand my way of understanding. You keep on refusing the verses for your way of understanding and it is strange for me that you can understand from one verse or even think of that. I can only present you the following verses if you can understand.

285 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye rejects the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do.

20114 High above all is God, the King, and the Truth! Be not in haste with the Quran before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge.?

Regards.

[drfazl]

Dear Khyaletanzim,

Dear brother as a people who wish to be Muslims, before the death captures us by His leave, we ought to strive for wisdom from Him haply we might be in nearness with Him; in that case neither fear not grief shall touch us; and this one means to know at any point of time if we are in Allah's Mercy and Grace or not. So let us lead a life seeking from Him for anything and everything all through our life, without committing association with Him. And we shall not adjudge as Gods among us. And also we do not judge tomorrow. We live for tomorrow not for the days past. We judge between us over the past and present. Whereas God judges between us for tomorrow for we have not yet completed our lease of life. Allah has forgiven our past; that is the reason why we are living today a somewhat reasonable life.

Allah knows best the meanings of His words and verses. Who and what else can teach us His intended meanings besides Allah? The way you answer is getting a bit advancing before Allah. There is not a slight fear in you that Allah might have endowed a better understanding of His verses and of Him to the other party. If you could read your post below, the same I could repeat as my post for you; and you could consider that now! You cite 20 114 for me; while I shall cite 2 44 from me to you. Yet this is not the discussion. Debate and exchanges may be in plain words, in worldly terms between me and you without touching Quran. But when we take the verses from Quran we must know Allah is with us. Allah is The Knower and Guides who He wish; but if we forget this then, Allah allows us the way we think we are.

3 64
Say ?O the people of the Book! Let us meet each other on this Pure Order that we shall obey none but Allah; and that we shall associate none with Allah; and that we shall regard none amongst ourselves as gods besides the One God.? And if they turn away, then say ?You be witness to our being muslim!?

If we are "Muslims only for Him or not" is the only bondage I see between me and the others; and there is no other consideration I shall entertain. The sole criterion that distinguishes between the two characters is humility with which one competes with the other. What are we reading Quran for? To improve our iman! As long as one's Iman improves and strengthened from the way he understands while reciting, it is well construed that it was the teaching from Allah, direct! For, but for Allah's wish none can have Iman or get strengthen in Iman. So if your understanding strengthens your Iman, it is well fitting your nature; and similarly to each of the others Allah teaches them their understanding to suit their nature so that it is easy for each of them to follow the righteousness. In this way Deen-ul-Islam is made easy for all.

Allah teaches each one His way. So all of us shall advance striving towards good cause; and Allah will make you come together in Islam humbling oneself before the other. Let us remember Allah has power over all things.

Regards,
fazl

Dear drfzal,

There is nothing to answer from me. You still stand at the same place and I don't have the ability to make you understand my way of understanding. You keep on refusing the verses for your way of understanding and it is strange for me that you can understand from one verse or even think of that. I can only present you the following verses if you can understand.

285 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye rejects the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do.

20114 High above all is God, the King, and the Truth! Be not in haste with the Quran before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! Advance me in knowledge.?

Regards.

.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

Brother I agree with you that ?Who and what else can teach us His intended meanings besides Allah??. Brother my belief is that if He wants to guide anyone He does not need Quran for that. After said that I want to explain what you understood as ?The way you answer is getting a bit advancing before Allah.? is purely your opinion and you passed the judgment ?There is not a slight fear in you that Allah might have endowed a better understanding of His verses and of Him to the other party.? And followed it by the example from Quran where you presented these two verses to make me understand your opinion. Lets read those verses again completely to sort out the confusion between me and you.

244

Free_Minds Do you order the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Scripture? Do you not understand?

Brother if you read the verse which you presented for me then it clearly states that one cannot order while he is not doing that action himself. Where did I ordered you anything which I myself not doing? Can you explain how does this fit in with what you are trying to tell me?

20114

Free_Minds Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur'an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

I have clearly explained to you my way of understanding and showed you practically with the verse 20114 that I feel a contradiction between your statement and verse of Quran. I presented this verse only after your comment that ?Only one verse can make someone understand all?. How come you do not see the simple contradiction between your quote and the verse presented to you? I cannot understand the simple fact that how one can understand the hidden truth when he don?t consider even the apparent (literal) meanings. If this is your claim that you can understand the deeper meaning by denying the literal meanings of the verse then it is beyond my understanding.

Kindly tell me which of my comment made you realize that I don?t believe in One God? I cannot answer regarding word Muslim because it will be useless because you don?t consider my approach towards understanding the message of Quran correct.

Now here is my understanding without using Quran. Dear brother here are some questions which I felt that you may want to know the answers from me.

Q. Can God guide?
A. My answer is surely he is the only one who can guide.

Q. Can God guide without Quran?
A. My answer is yes he can Guide without using even one verse from Quran If He wills so.

Q. Can I get the Guidance from Quran with one verse?
A. My answer is absolutely not.

If you pay attention to the last question then you will see that the Question is not about God but Question is related to me regarding Quran. I believe that Quran is given to find the guidance and not to give the guidance. Quran is a tool provided by God for those who want guidance. This may be the basic difference between you and me. You may react as I am defying God but if you pay attention to all my Questions then my understanding is made clear with these three answers together.

Now let?s move towards the last and most important part of my answer. My understanding is that when one presents his opinion in public then he should be ready for the denial, criticism, questions and abuse. Any of the above can be the outcome in any debate. What I was doing is asking questions together with presenting my understanding which seemed a denial to you. I have not claimed at any point that I am the guided one but at the same time I do present my understanding with my utmost capability. This debate with you is only because we are on a forum and my belief is that discussions are for the better understanding of others opinions and to know the flaws in one?s own ideas. I don?t come to this Forum to Give Guidance to the participants. I just come to find out Flaws in my understanding and to know the understanding of others during the process.

I hope this will clear my position and if it does not then let me know but please ask me direct questions. It will be easier for me to present my view without making you feel that I am trying to Guide you in any way.

Regards.

[drfazl]

Dear Khyaletanzim,

2 44
Do you direct the people to the guidance, while you forget the Scripture yourselves? Will you then not be sensible?

The verse is meant for all however great one may think himself to be! The verse is a fitting Guidance from Allah to every human being in all walks of life at all points of times. This is the ayat that commands you to make yourself humble before someone who you want to guide. Only towards this end I posted this ayat. This is only a sample to taste the essence of the whole Quran in the right perspective. If you could read the lines of what you had written in the previous post which I reproduce here " There is nothing to answer from me. You still stand at the same place and I don't have the ability to make you understand my way of understanding. You keep on refusing the verses for your way of understanding and it is strange for me that you can understand from one verse or even think of that. I can only present you the following verses if you can understand.

Here you are not humble; you fail to show your humility when you said "You still stand at the same place ... You keep on refusing the verses ... for your way of understanding and it is strange for me ..." And this is why I replied to that which you pointed out as wrong on my part, thus There is not a slight fear in you that Allah might have endowed a better understanding of His verses and of Him to the other party.? if you find it difficult to make me understand your way of understanding, then it is already well accepted from me that we are opposites of each other, leave alone the goal if we are in the way of getting the Guidance. Now just think as to how it is possible for me to say that we are in the opposite directions without understanding your way of thinking!

I am not saying just because we are opposites of each other our goal is not righteousness and the Guidance. Easy way and hard way are opposites of each other as an example. There are innumerable levels of understanding as many as 6 billion just now, well enough to make each individual follow the straight path from his own level of understanding. This is the right way from Him and it is easy for Him to guide individually. He alone has the means to Guide and has the capacity to make one understand Him; and He guides unto Him who He will. I do not know whether you will agree to this; yet it is my view. I am being careful here that I do not use the words whether you will understand this. Every one has his measure and means of understanding allowed by Allah, well suited for him and him alone; whether you use the allowed means to His fullest satisfaction or not is the question with Him. My understanding of 2 44 is given above. Allah asks you to find the guidance in the verses of the Quran through reflection from a level and platform where you stand; and not by banking heavily and solely on literal translation. If anyone follows this way along with grammatical application also fettering himself to the resultant meanings, then, such meanings become non flexible and rigid that one finds it very difficult to raise himself up from the fetters.

You have fixed yourself to your own fetters in this way, and that is the reason why you say about me " You keep on refusing the verses for your way of understanding and it is strange for me." You are too judgmental! Allah knows who is Guided and who is not! How come you forgot this? Now 2 44! Do not read the ayat with dictionary and grammar; but Recite, Rehearse! This is a plea from me. The verses of Quran try to get at our sensibilities but we get back to dictionaries. That is a real set back!

And you write quoting me thus?The way you answer is getting a bit advancing before Allah.? is purely your opinion and you passed the judgment ? I am sorry and I am happy for Allah's sake if you say you do not. Now it is important that we must get along in the directions and the levels of understanding and get through to the Goal! Allah suffices us all in this.

Dear drfazl,

244

Free_Minds Do you order the people to do good, but forget yourselves, while you are reciting the Scripture? Do you not understand?

Dear drfzal,
Brother if you read the verse which you presented for me then it clearly states that one cannot order while he is not doing that action himself. Where did I ordered you anything which I myself not doing? Can you explain how does this fit in with what you are trying to tell me?

"You still stand at the same place and I don't have the ability to make you understand. You keep on refusing the verses ... for your way of understanding and it is strange for me that you can understand from one verse or even think of that. "

Brother, those words you've used are belittling; and it is not merely ordering, but sounds of warning too, as if I am bound for hell! Will you read those words and feel for yourself?

20114

Free_Minds Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be hasty with the Qur'an before its inspiration is completed to you, and say "My Lord, increase my knowledge."

khyaletanzim, you write
I have clearly explained to you my way of understanding and showed you practically with the verse 20114 that I feel a contradiction between your statement and verse of Quran. I presented this verse only after your comment that ?Only one verse can make someone understand all?. How come you do not see the simple contradiction between your quote and the verse presented to you? I cannot understand the simple fact that how one can understand the hidden truth when he don?t consider even the apparent (literal) meanings. If this is your claim that you can understand the deeper meaning by denying the literal meanings of the verse then it is beyond my understanding.

Look into your sentences above! They simply mean I have nothing at all just because you lack humility. Otherwise Allah would have made you understand the level from which I speak. If I am in a level lower than you, you would have climbed down mercifully either to make me understand or you would have got at me and got satisfied; and if you are at a level lower than me you would have wanted to come up. And Allah would have helped you to further up. In both situations what you need is humility as humility is the seat of knowledge. Allah wants you to seek from Him, " O God! Increase me in Wisdom! " i.e., in practical sense " O God! Increase me in my being humble! "

You wrote
Kindly tell me which of my comment made you realize that I don?t believe in One God?

Me I ask you the same.

Regards,

.

[khyaletanzim]

Dear drfzal,

Dear brother I have not guided you nor it is my duty. I have told you this in my previous post but Your reaction is that I am trying to Guide you. My dear Brother if you pay attention to my previous post then the first question answer tells my view on Guidance clearly. While replying to my post you completely forgot that we are discussing and not guiding each other. During a discussion raising a point based on the rules or laws (which has been made clear previously) is not denying in a False way. You consider my answer as denial which is actually answered according to my understanding.

Do you consider the Arabic as a language of Quran? If your answer is no then I may be at a very low level of understanding so please show me how to reach at your level. Logic (my logic) tells me that nothing works properly unless there is a law or rule governing it. Please show me which Law or laws work behind your way of understanding.

I have told you clearly that my approach is to consider the language as the base for understanding the message but you are telling me that language is not an issue when reading Quran. The way I understood is that you have some other way of understanding message of Quran. Actually now it is your duty to show me your laws or rules if any.

Please tell me what is the base of your understanding when it comes to Quran. If it is humility then kindly explain to me what do you mean by that. It seems to me that you are trying to teach me Humility. Can you tell me What is humility?Humility in the dictionary available to me tells " a lack of false pride". I have told you my basic but on the other hand you are showing me my denial to your understanding as an arrogant behavior. Arrogance is definitely against humility but is it possible that you answer my question clearly because it seems that You are far higher place than me regarding understanding of Quran's message.

Your translation regarding 244 is also quite away from the the basic laws i consider but i am not going to go in that because you don't take that as right approach.

Regards.