Salaat includes kneeling and bowing

Wakas

peace,

I will respond to the 'arguments' against the physicality of salaat soon...

In case I was not clear, allow me to re-quote myself, in emphasis/bold

why not post the strongest evidence you have for kneeling/bowing/etc. here?

I did not ask about the more general "physical manifestation", I asked about the more specific "kneeling/bowing/etc.".

Is the part you have titled "POSITIONS FOR SALAAT........................ 18" your "logical and evidential reasons" for "salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling."?

MINI

aoa i am new and the reason i got to this website was that i was looking for an answer from someone on salat. I know someone who has studied the quran so much and after 30years of kneeling and bowing he stopped it . the reason being that he says there is no physical form of salat , as salah as he understands is TOTALY subission to Allah , yani everything a muslim does is ibada. now its quite late and i have read a very long article here from someone who has written on the physical act and times and wudoo/tayamam. I can give you all some of his reasons but you will have to wait. sorry . but just leaving a thought when one makes "contact" for(asalah you need to be clean , hence the washing/tayamum. The qibla is an ideology which we all have to follow and basically if we turn to the kaba we are doing idol worship . Some of his reasons, i have read some of yours here. so can one of you please post me the whole points why we DONT have a physical salat , i have read the other arguments ..

mani

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I've been doing more and more research on this issue, and the concept of "salaah" according to the Arabs is starting to appear completely contradictory to the reading. As most people on here know, the word "salaah" (or salaat) doesn't mean 'prayer' at all. Rather, it refers to a contact, connection, or commitment. Also, the "qibla" is not a physical place; it's a state of mind, a spiritual focal point that many describe as simply 'monotheism'... I'm still looking into these matters, and God willing, the almighty will guide me to the right path...

Peace,

Ahmad

pcborg

Salaam,

I will reply one post at a time as there are numerous illogical statements being made. This one is to wakas.

First point

context is very important to understanding. So for the first point, even though you may find a word having a different or figurative meaning in one place in the Qur'an, does not mean that that is the only meaning it should have. By that logic, because dzarb can mean beat and is used as such in the qur'an, then we must accept that we can beat our wives. No, why? Because of context, so even if for the sake of argument we accept that rukuu' and sujuud (and I don't, ill go into this further later inshallah) mean to hear and obey or something else rediculous like that, that still does not in any way mean that this is the correct meaning when we analyse the salat ayaat.

Second point-

So when I point out that I have sections on qibla and timing in my document, this is not some stupid statement by me, rather it is me telling you that I have explored the context in the document, a context which supports my interpretation. The qibla defining a physical direction for salaah and the timing specifying a specific times for salaah.

So stop being so bloody condascending in your questioning, I m more than capable of understanding your questions.

Third point -

Physicality of salaat and kneeling and bowing are the EXACT same thing. Why? Because if we accept the physicality of salaat as the context of our interpretation, then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

My other responses will answer other and also answer your concerns in more detail inshallah.

salaam

pcborg

Peace,

I've been doing more and more research on this issue, and the concept of "salaah" according to the Arabs is starting to appear completely contradictory to the reading. As most people on here know, the word "salaah" (or salaat) doesn't mean 'prayer' at all. Rather, it refers to a contact, connection, or commitment. Also, the "qibla" is not a physical place; it's a state of mind, a spiritual focal point that many describe as simply 'monotheism'... I'm still looking into these matters, and God willing, the almighty will guide me to the right path...

Peace,

Ahmad

Salaam ahmad,

Please read my salaat document for answers on the qibla etc issue. Also, it is not arabs who define what salaat is, it is the qur'an. As I point out in my article,

But we must note that for the Arabs at the time of the prophet who worshipped at the Kabah, Salaat was corrupted and empty of meaning, as Allah tells us -

Their prayer (salaatuhum) at the House (Kabah) is nothing but whistling and clapping. So taste the punishment because you disbelieved! (Quran, 835)

So what the arabs believed about this is irrelivant except in so much as it is a demonstration of their error.

pcborg

I recommend people reading past discussions on "sujud" and "rakaa" etc.

e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0

amongst others.

Salaam,

I totally agree that rukuu' and sujuud are physical... this link, the first post anyway seems to agree with this...

salaam

pcborg

Salaam,

I though I would just bring up a point made by ahmad bilal that was not answered (and a point you can get from my document)

How do you spiritually bow and prostrate to something or someone? 4829 even says that the believers are SEEN bowing and prostrating; so how is this not a physical act? Can you VISUALLY SEE someone "spiritually" bowing and prostrating? Is this logical?

A different yet similar point can also be found in my document -

The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guides whom He will to a straight path (Qur'an 2142)

The 1st point here, is that qibla does not mean religious orientation, as the Muslims would not have changed that (I discuss the change in qibla in my document, read it to see how illogical it is to see qibla as a religious orientation), it is therefore a geographical orientation. Note also the mention that both east and west belong to Allah, further confirming that this is a direction in a geographical sense. Note also that the fools among the people would actually be able to tell that a change had taken place for something that Muslims did, this gives credence to something physical and obvious, Muslims can be seen praying in a direction, and nothing else

This means 2 things, physical manifestation of salaah (standing, bowing and prostrating), and the DIRECTION of salaah.

Answer this everybody... I look forward to the mental gymnastics...

salaam

pcborg

Peace Ahmad,

|

To elaborate on what Drfazl has explained in his previous post, the Rakaa and Sujood are definitely physical bowing and prostrating. But there one needs to understand the true meaning of Salaat. Salaat cannot be done through physical actions. The following are the reasons -

Lack of Concentration When we prepare us for the Salat, how many times have you been fully conscious that you are preparing your self to talk to Allah ? I'm sure we lack our concentration 90% of the times
Is Allah to be present in just one direction - Salaat is performed facing towards kaaba. But dont we know that Allah is Omni present? By performing the physical bowing/prostrating are we not going one step ahead and telling HIM that this is the way to pray?
3529-30 - Surely, those who recite the book of God, observe the salaat (contact/connection/prayers), and are charitable both discreetly and openly can hope for an investment that never loses. He will recompense them generously and will multiply His blessings upon them. He is forgiving, appreciative.

Lets try to understand this verse carefully -

If you observe Salat - Contact Allah through your prayer for all your needs without associating any one with him
and are charitable both discreetly and openly - only if you are bestowed with open mindedness and generosity to give away the wealth given by Allah then we have Allah's blessings. Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action.
Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?

Assume that we come across a situation of crisis. We are well aware that this situation has aroused because of our own mistakes/sins. Now we have tried all the possible ways to solve it but in vain. Now what do we do?
We submit to Allah, we talk/pray to Allah with utmost politeness, ask for forgiveness and also promise Allah that we will definitely follow which ever is the right path and at this point we realise that he is the Most COGNIZANT .i.e we submit to Allah. Thus if you see we have performed a rukku - politeness and Sujood - submit to him alone who has all the might, THE ALMIGHTY.

May Allah guide all of us.

May Allh protect us all from such 'logic'... I will respond to your points one by one -

1 - Because we are not perfect therefore salaat cannot be physical, that is your point. This is so rediculous as to make any response a waste of time.
2 - Who says that salaah is defining Allah as being in one direction? The qibla is merely a unified direction for salaah, not for Allah. For info on the qibla, check after the response to your 4th point.
3 - Astaghfirullah, you just added words to the qur'an. lets address you main point "Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action. Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?"

Salaat, which is physical AND mental in nature, has numerous benefits, one of which is -

Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer (Salaat); surely prayer (Salaat) keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do. (Quran, 2945)

And remember -

"I am God; there is no other god beside Me; you shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salaat (Prayers) to remember ME." (Quran, 2014)

So Salaat brings Allah to remembrance, and the remembrance of Allah keeps away from indecency and evil. This is indeed a multifaceted benefit. Al hamdu lillah.

So the performance of salaah cultivates the mental and spiritual state which makes charity etc a natural act in submission to Allah. You asked a question, here is your answer

4 - rukuu = politeness and sujuud submission... Is this 'pull whatever meaning for a word that you want' day?! I will deal with the meanings of these two words in a later post inshallah.

Direction of prayer (Qiblah)

We have seen you looking up into heaven, turning this way and that, so We will turn you towards a direction which will please you. Turn your face, therefore, towards the Sacred Mosque (Masjid al-Haramin Makkah). Wherever you all are, turn your faces towards it. Those given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord. Allah is not unaware of what they do. (Quran, 2144)

In this way We have made you a middlemost community, so that you may act as witnesses against mankind and the Messenger as a witness against you. We only appointed the direction you used to face in order to know those who follow the Messenger from those who turn round on their heels. Though in truth it is a very hard thingexcept for those Allah has guided. Allah would never let your faith go to waste. Allah is All-Gentle, Most Merciful to mankind. (Quran, 2143)

Wherever you come from, turn your face to the Sacred Mosque (Masjid al-Haram in Makkah). Wherever you are, turn your faces towards it so that people will have no argument against youexcept for those among them who do wrong and then you should not fear them but rather fear Meand so that I can complete My blessing to you so that hopefully you will be guided. (Quran, 2150)

But never forget that -

It is not devoutness to turn your faces to the East or to the West. Rather, those with true devoutness are those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, the Angels, the Book and the Prophets, and who, despite their love for it, give away their wealth to their relatives and to orphans and the very poor, and to travellers and beggars and to set slaves free, and who perform prayer and give the alms; those who honour their contracts when they make them, and are steadfast in poverty and illness and in battle. Those are the people who are true. They are the people who guard against evil. (Quran, 2177)

In the classical dictionary, the word Qibla is translated as meaning the direction to which someone turns his face or attention, and within a religious context it would be taken as the direction faced for prayer (Lughatul Quran. However lets look at the relevant ayaat.

The following section speaks about the Qibla the most -

The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guides whom He will to a straight path (Qur'an 2142)

The 1st point here, is that qibla does not mean religious orientation, as the Muslims would not have changed that, it is therefore a geographical orientation. Note also the mention that both east and west belong to Allah, further confirming that this is a direction in a geographical sense. Note also that the fools among the people would actually be able to tell that a change had taken place for something that Muslims did, this gives credence to something physical and obvious, Muslims can be seen praying in a direction, and nothing else

Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which you were used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels. Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.

The change in the direction of the Qibla was to test the followers of the messenger.

Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven, so We shall surely turn you to a qibla which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do.

They were to turn to (the Kabah contained in) the Sacred Mosque. (An example of the two being linked in 52, but even just the fact that the Mosque surrounding the Kabah is called The Sacred Mosque is clear).

And even if you bring to those who have been given the Book every sign they would not follow your qibla (Sacred Mosque), nor can you be a follower of their qibla, neither are they the followers of each other's qibla, and if you follow their desires after the knowledge that has come to you, then you shall most surely be among the unjust.

We are told that the Jews and Christians would not turn towards the Sacred Mosque, away from the directions they followed.

Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).
The truth is from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the doubters.

And everyone has a direction to which he should turn, therefore hasten to (do) good works; wherever you are, Allah will bring you all together; surely Allah has power over all things.

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and surely it is the very truth from your Lord, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do.

And from whatsoever place you come forth, turn your face towards the Sacred Mosque; and wherever you are turn your faces towards it, so that people shall have no accusation against you, except such of them as are unjust; so do not fear them, and fear Me, that I may complete My favour on you and that you may walk on the right course. (Quran, 2142-150)

Wherever we decide to travel to on earth we are to direct ourselves toward the Sacred Mosque, this is repeated 3 times in 8 verses.

But turn to the Qibla why? What is the only thing that Muslims do that would require them to need a direction that ALL Muslims would turn to? If you think about it, there is actually no other action other than Salaat. In Salaat we stand and we bow and we prostrate, but in what direction? The Qibla is the only conceivable answer given the fact that Allah repeatedly emphasises that Muslims turn to it.

Either that, or you believe that Allah wants us to walk sideways always directing ourselves to the Kabah. That makes no sense.

Lets look at the next verse -

Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer) (Quran, 2125)

We are reminded that people pray at the Kabah. Do they pray in every direction, to and away from the Kabah? We are told that Allah told Abraham and Ismail to purify the house (the Kabah) for 3 reasons -

For those who circle around it.
For those who stay for worship in the Sacred mosque (compare to 2187)
FOR THOSE WHO BOW AND PROSTRATE (in Salaat).

All of these three directly relating to the Kabah. Here we have an unquestionable link between Salaat and the Kabah (something which defines a geographical orientation for our Salaat).

Similarly with -

And We located the position of the House for Ibrahim Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who circle it, and those who stand and bow and prostrate. (Quran, 2226)

The next ayah is important also -

We revealed to Musa and his brother Settle your people in houses in Egypt and make your houses your Qiblas and perform prayer (Salaat) and give good news to the believers. (Quran, 1087)

We see here that the term Qibla is directly linked to prayer.

As a final point consider the following verses -

(1)The fools among the people will say "What hath turned them from the Qibla to which they were used?" Say To Allah belong both east and West He guides whom He will to a straight path (2142)

(2)Indeed We see the turning of your face to heaven (i.e., unsure of the Qibla), so We shall surely turn you to a Qibla which you shall like; turn then your face towards the Sacred Mosque, and wherever you are, turn your face towards it, and those who have been given the Book most surely know that it is the truth from their Lord; and Allah is not at all heedless of what they do. (2144)

(3)and We did not make (not "NOT REVEAL&quot the Qibla to which you were used, except to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels. Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful. (2142)

The prophet and his followers followed the Qibla that others did (or were used to)(1), but they probably just took it as they either were unsure of another or they wanted the ka'bah (2) but were unsure (2) possibly due to the idols. The fact that they were unsure PROVES that Allah DID NOT reveal to the prophet the Qibla before this (hence we don't need other sources). Allah created this situation (that it was the only well known one, for example among the people of the book) to test the believers once he finally assigned the ka'bah as the Qibla (3).

I believe that the information above is sufficient to conclude that Qibla makes no sense except for the direction for prayer (within the above context at least).

pcborg

peace

also mentioned in quran is certain situations where if we can't perform salat one way we can do it differently (walking, riding horses,... we can shorten it when in danger...)
that all implies that THE METHOD is clearly not important.

elsewhere you see clear details about other issues,
inheritance, who to marry, who not to marry, ablution, fasting...
and interestingly there are nlo such details for salat (if we take it to mean prayer).
lets see what could have been said, something like this perhaps 'stand like this, say this, bow, say this, prostrate, say this, sit, say this, stand up and repeat several times'

now would it be so hard to add this in the quran? of course not, yet there are no such details described.

and we see people bowing and prostrating physically while their behaviour and lifestyle is completly unquranic, so what does that physical thing do... nothing.

here's one of interesting articles
http//defendingtrueislam.wordpress.com/2007/04/09/salat-connection/

salaam,

Lets look at your points -

"also mentioned in quran is certain situations where if we can't perform salat one way we can do it differently (walking, riding horses,... we can shorten it when in danger...)that all implies that THE METHOD is clearly not important."

What it implies is that Allah has made exceptions to make life easier for us, it DOES not imply that there is no such thing as a way to pray. Consider -

Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind). If ye fear (an enemy), then (pray) on foot, or riding, but when ye are in security, remember Allah in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not. (Quran, 2238 - 239)

This refutes your point plain and simple.

You say "and interestingly there are nlo such details for salat (if we take it to mean prayer).". Well brother, I have a surprise for you... read my salaat document on the site in my sig...

you say "and we see people bowing and prostrating physically while their behaviour and lifestyle is completly unquranic, so what does that physical thing do... nothing."

Hmmnn... So because humans are flawed or hypocrites... That means that salaah is not really physical... i see.... Ok, well, i read the qur'an, and i give charity... but... i am not perfect... so i guess the qur'an is not a guidance and charity does not help to purify me... Ok... I'll stop yay... sheesh.

Im sorry to say this but i get the distinct impression that people are working backward here...

1 - I really do not want to have to pray during the day
2 - I'll try to interpret every clear ayah on this topic to support my whims.

This is the only way such poor logic as can be seen in the posts on this thread can be explained. Either that, or... I won't say.

salaam

Wakas

peace,

even though you may find a word having a different or figurative meaning in one place in the Qur'an, does not mean that that is the only meaning it should have.

I agree and I did not say to the contrary. Let's stick to what I actually said, i.e. the facts.

So stop being so bloody condascending in your questioning, I m more than capable of understanding your questions.

If my questioning comes across as "condascending" it is because you have not answered them / misunderstand them, despite being asked more than once in clear terms.

I will re-quote them again for you, in emphasis/bold

why not post the strongest evidence you have for kneeling/bowing/etc. here?

I did not ask about the more general "physical manifestation", I asked about the more specific "kneeling/bowing/etc.".

Is the part you have titled "POSITIONS FOR SALAAT........................ 18" your "logical and evidential reasons" for "salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling."?

Physicality of salaat and kneeling and bowing are the EXACT same thing.

"physicality" is a general term including all physical manifestations. "kneeling" and "bowing" are a SPECIFIC physical manifestation. You seem to not understand this simple point.

then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Is using one's voice a physical manifestation/act? A simple yes or no will suffice. A "yes" will disprove your challenge. ;D

I totally agree that rukuu' and sujuud are physical... this link, the first post anyway seems to agree with this...

Does your research style only extend to reading the first post of a thread and ignoring the rest?

##############

I would like to point out one thing. In my researching on "salat" I discovered many things that were simply not true that I was taught and thought were true, so I can perfectly understand where you and others are coming from.

pcborg

wakas you are hillarious. If you wish it we can debate one on one for the next week and we will see how you stand in your opinion at the end of it.

Now to your points -

You say -

"I agree and I did not say to the contrary. Let's stick to what I actually said, i.e. the facts."

I am making a logical point which relates to you linking to the thread on the meaning of the words. The point is valid and relates to you. Beyond this this is a logical point that is generally relevant and hence worth making to frame a discussion.

Wakas, don't bother trying to tell me how to answer, you are sorely mistaken if you think you are discussing with someone less intelligent than you. I will answer how I like, and as you will see how I answer is logically and without emotional interpretation of the facts. Something you are clearly incapable of if you think salat is some purely spiritual thing.

You say-

"If my questioning comes across as "condascending" it is because you have not answered them / misunderstand them, despite being asked more than once in clear terms."

I answer questions based upon my timescale and decision, not upon yours. If I answer according to your logic it will be pathetic, so I answer with proper logic, that is, my logic. Furthermore, you cannot dictate the answer, as to do means I must assume your assumptions. I do not.

you say -

""physicality" is a general term including all physical manifestations. "kneeling" and "bowing" are a SPECIFIC physical manifestation. You seem to not understand this simple point."

It seems you want to be spoonfed information. Given the context of my argument which I made clear from the first post, I made clear that salaah involves kneeling and bowing, that is physicality is involved in salaah. I agree that the word is not the most apt, nevertheless you demonstrate that you know what I mean, physical manifestations or actions.

Next, I quote myself -

"Physicality of salaat and kneeling and bowing are the EXACT same thing. Why? Because if we accept the physicality of salaat as the context of our interpretation, then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

If you read this and use your comprehension, you will see that in this is your answer. If you still did not figure out which part here it is -

"Why? Because if we accept the physicality of salaat as the context of our interpretation, then (standing,) kneeling and bowing are THE ONLY physical salaat manifestations the qur'an gives. I challenge you to prove otherwise."

The challange holds if you accept my explanantion below, if not let me restate it.

If it is accepted that salaah involves physical activity or movement, then the following physical/bodily motions, namely standing, bowing and prostrating (and recitation if you like also) are involved as required element of the salaah based upon their relevant mention in the quran. I challenge you to prove otherwise.

Nevertheless if we debate in the week to come we will deal with this in detail.

you say -

"Is using one's voice a physical manifestation/act? A simple yes or no will suffice. A "yes" will disprove your challenge."

Not according to the argument I am making, it is sound manifestation. Don't presume to lecture me on physics either, I am quite aware of the simple physics of sound. The point of my argument, and the context of my challenge relates to physical movement of the body in salaah. Sound, does not fall under this category in the argument i am making. Standing kneeling and bowing as part of salaah are the unique aspects of salaah and define its pysical manifestation by a person. These are therefore what I am referring to. Recitation is not unique to salaah.

I appreciate that this should have been made clearer, this is therefore my deficiency in making my point.

you say -

"Does your research style only extend to reading the first post of a thread and ignoring the rest?"

Does you response style only extend to pointing me to a thread of poorly articulated opinions because you cant make an argument for yourself on this thread?

Also, it is not my job to hunt down what you think to be a good argument from 8 pages of thread. You should extract what is supposedly good from it and present it.

you say

"I would like to point out one thing. In my researching on "salat" I discovered many things that were simply not true that I was taught and thought were true, so I can perfectly understand where you and others are coming from."

Debate with me this week and you will again learn that your knowledge is flawed.

salaam

pcborg

I will be preparing an article on the two words, sujuud and rukuu' (and iqama as needed) based upon classical dictionaries ,the Qur'an and logic.

It should be done in the coming week inshallah.

Meanwhile if anyone has a specific argument or point to make, please make it with all the relevant information organised and read to be analysed.

salaam

Wakas

peace,

Please refrain from making personal comments. It is not constructive when in a discussion.
Forum rules http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8177.0

Does you response style only extend to pointing me to a thread of poorly articulated opinions because you cant make an argument for yourself on this thread?
Also, it is not my job to hunt down what you think to be a good argument from 8 pages of thread. You should extract what is supposedly good from it and present it.

The sequence of events is that YOU made a claim first, e.g. salat involves physical bowing and kneeling etc. I asked about the evidence for this claim. You were evasive and never answered. You now say you are going to write an article about "sujuud" and "rukuu", which to me is clearly an indirect admission your existing evidence was not worthy of being cited. This was as I suspected, hence my questioning. Of course, that is not to say there is no evidence.

In any case, I look forward to your article attempting to answer the following questions, re-quoted again, in emphasis/bold

why not post the strongest evidence you have for kneeling/bowing/etc. here?

I did not ask about the more general "physical manifestation", I asked about the more specific "kneeling/bowing/etc.".

Is the part you have titled "POSITIONS FOR SALAAT........................ 18" your "logical and evidential reasons" for "salaat as an act of remembrance and worship which involves standing, bowing and kneeling."?

Debate with me this week and you will again learn that your knowledge is flawed.

Being wrong in this life does not bother me.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace,

I understand the ideology that "pcborg" is discussing, especially concerning the qibla. If salaah really is an issue of prayer (literally "contact or connection with God&quot, then it is very plausible that the qibla is a physical direction. This is the same doctrine mentioned in the previous scripture, the Tavrah. The Israelites physically faced the direction of Jerusalem when performing their prayers, and, according to historians, so did the ancient Sabians (who eventually turned to face Mekka). So, it doesn't seem very likely that the "changed qibla" is not a physical direction, since this changes the system of the believers, even after God clearly says that His "sunna" is unchangeable... I'm still considering the concept of "spiritual bowing and prostrating", especially since the other people of the book (Jews, Nazarenes, Sabians) physically bowed and prostrated during their prayers... Like I said, I'm still thoroughly considering this concept. Right now, I still believe in physical prostration during salaat, and God knows best. May He guide us all to the right path, Inshaa Allah...

Peace,

Ahmad

drfazl

pcborg,

Actually I am stuck with your principles! Can you explain about your first principle? You state 1. If a word can have more than one meaning then I will choose the meaning that - 1.1. Fits the context.

Quran is for the present and for the future. The context changes between man and man; and in the same man from moment to moment And as for the future we may not be able to assess and assert for now. There will be myriad changes in occasions and situations. What is the yard stick that you hold to choose a meaning to apply to the context? Definitely the past and the history is not the life of us; for a believer has to believe in the future!

Peace.

.

drfazl

pcborg,

1 - Because we are not perfect therefore salaat cannot be physical, that is your point. This is so rediculous as to make any response a waste of time.
2 - Who says that salaah is defining Allah as being in one direction? The qibla is merely a unified direction for salaah, not for Allah. For info on the qibla, check after the response to your 4th point.
3 - Astaghfirullah, you just added words to the qur'an. lets address you main point "Now if you observe all these actions are evolved first in our mind and only then that we bring them to action. Now where is the physical action coming in here unless there is that thought to do it?"

That was not at all the point sabina raised.
If Allah is watching you from all directions and your salaah must be performed facing Him, what is the unified direction for salaah you are speaking of? Who do you face during your salaah? Allah or the square stone? 'Qibla' means turning to Him; and acknowledging Him.
Based on your logic, what in your opinion is the difference between the physical actions of animals and the physical actions of man? Each and every thing in the heavens and in the earth including men KNOW well how to pray Allah. The KNOW is their knowledge and the wisdom endowed by Allah upon each. His wisdom is not physical but the Unseen force!

Peace

.

drfazl

pcborg,

May Allh protect us all from such 'logic'... I will respond to your points one by one -

Salaat, which is physical AND mental in nature, has numerous benefits, one of which is -

Salaat is purely performed in the mind level; it is not physical at all. If you want to refute, then just any one ayat you quote and discuss; there need not be more than an ayat here for discussion because there shall never be contradiction between one ayat and the rest of the 6665 ayats. And make sure your explanation to one ayat must fit in all the ayats relating to salaat.

?Recite that which has been revealed to you of the Book and establish prayer (Salaat); surely prayer (Salaat) keeps (one) away from indecency and evil, and certainly the remembrance of Allah is the greatest, and Allah knows what you do.? (Qur?an, 2945)

Recite means 'Re-citing' with inferences and references from the ayats bringing to mind repeatedly to strengthen your resolve for steadfastness in your rehearsal in the straight path that which has been revealed to you, when in your deep meditation and pondering prayerfully, over the ayats of Allah that has been sent down upon your heart. Allah's command is this "Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind!" This is all the prayer and recital is all about and the core meaning of (Qur?an, 2945).

Peace,

.

drfazl

pcborg,

And remember -
"I am God; there is no other god beside Me; you shall worship Me alone, and observe the Salaat (Prayers) to remember ME." (Qur?an, 2014)

Can you recite "I am God!"?
Can you understand, recite and rehearse in your life this 'three words' ayat?
When did you see the God? Did you have the verification from Allah direct to know Him at least by one attribute of His?
Have you followed Ibrahim in this regard?
Did Allah not describe to you that Ibrahim did get verification from Allah that He was the Creator, through his prayerful seeking?

And you know Muhammad also had to follow Ibrahim and those who believe in Allah. Unless you get the first hand Evidence of Allah, from Allah Himself by His Leave, there is no way you shall be assured of the real God and you will be able to stay clear of the gods beside Him. With this alone you will be steadfast in your belief and follow Him alone, which in human language is termed as worshiping. Due to such truthful worshiping, the Most Benevolent rewards you with ample recompense and also makes you remember Him with gratitude all the time for the Grace He has showered upon you. This gratitude of remembering Him results in strengthening one's ever growing belief and wisdom. You must remember that every ayat you recite must finally improve and increase your belief. This is the end of the prayer; the fruits of reciting; the liveliness of rehearsing. Start your discussion! Here is the ayat for your remembrance

And whenever a chapter is revealed, there are some of them who say Which of you has it strengthened in faith? Then as for those who believe, it strengthens them in faith and they rejoice.

And with this alone every single PRAYER should end!

Peace.

.

drfazl

pcborg,

4 - rukuu = politeness and sujuud submission... Is this 'pull whatever meaning for a word that you want' day?! I will deal with the meanings of these two words in a later post inshallah.

In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?

Peace,

.

pcborg

pcborg,

In what way the above submission goes against the principles of Islam, Quran, and Allah? Why should you pull a fast one on such a good understanding?

Peace,

Words in the qur'an are not algebraic variables. Their meaning is not defined according to some value we wish an idea to have. To understand the meaning of a word we must 1st have knowledge of its possible linguistic meanings then we make use of the context in which it is being used to decide the correct meaning the word can have. However, we cannot make the words have new meanings that cannot be directly linked to the original meaning of the word. To do so is to make the qur'an useless and unintelligible. The Qur'an can modify meaning, expand meanings by explaining them in its own text etc...

So that such concepts are or are not in harmony with islam in general is not the relevant point here. The relevant point is what can the word mean and what does the context of the word indicate regarding the correct meaning.

salaam