Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Tlepsh

Peace Ayman,

Thank you for your reply but I will repeat some of my questions

If I am not mistaken according your understanding from 2.189 Ahilla (the crescents) are timing devices for people and hajj. Because the time required from the full moon to waning crescent is 10 days and from waxing crescent to the full moon is 10 days. These 10 days fits with the 10 days of fasting, 10 days of hajj, and 10 days of the period in 2234.

If God says us that the crescents are timing devices and if the time between the full moon and any of the two crescents is 10 days; then why in 2234 it does not say that the women shall trabbasu 4 ashhur (full moon) and the hilal (the waning crescent) which is 4 full moons and 10 days?

God will not tell us that the (hilal)s are timing devices and he will not use this timing device for us. Therefore I have doubt that ahilla in 2.189 is something else than the crescents. The meaning of (mikat) in Lane?s Lexicon is given to be ?a time appointed for the performance of some action?

Each crescent (waning and waxing) lasts for 4-5 days. If we do not count the days how are we going to be sure that it is the crescent of the tenth day after the full moon? The shape of the crescent from the 10th day after the full moon to the 14th day full moon is almost the same as described in 36.39.

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

07/03/2008
08/01/2008 1

This is why you will often get 11 cycles only in a year.

This is why you will always get 12 full moons in one year = 11 cycles.

lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days

I'll have to rethink this whole thing, especially why 8 hajj is used not years.
http//islamawakened.org/Quran/28/27/

Only for future reference...

New Moon Cycle
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html

Solstices June 21 1806

1 Jul 14 1204
2 Aug 12 2303
3 Sep 11 1244
4 Oct 11 0501
5 Nov 9 2303
6 Dec 9 1740
7 Jan 8 1137
8 Feb 7 0344
9 Mar 7 1714
10 Apr 6 0355
11 May 5 1218
12 June 3 1923 (short)

Solstices June 20 2359 Universal Time (UT)

1 07/03/2008
2 08/01/2008
3 08/30/2008
4 09/29/2008
5 10/28/2008
6 11/27/2008
7 12/27/2008
8 01/26/2009
9 02/25/2009
10 03/26/2009
11 04/25/2009
12 05/24/2009

Solstice June 21 0545
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.php

1 06/22/2009 1935 UT
2 07/22/2009
3 08/20/2009
4 09/18/2009
5 10/18/2009
6 11/16/2009
7 12/16/2009
8 01/15/2010
9 02/14/2010
10 03/15/2010
11 04/14/2010
12 05/14/2010
00 06/12/2010 to Solstice June 21 1128

1 07/11/2010

Pseudo

So do you finally acknowledge that the new moon is NEVER mentioned in the great reading?

No. It is mentioned via inclusion along with all the other phases.

On the other hand, one of the meanings of "shahr" clearly given by Classical Arabic dictionaries is "full-moon".

Classical Arabic dictionaries are a tool not Quran and may lead to wrong conclusions, like tracing the month August in English to mean ?a person? named Augustus.

Why is it always "others" whenever I ask this question? Is this what is meant by 2185 "whoever OTHER than you witnesses"?

Ever think it has to do with the year 2009 not 1009 and we have calendars.

I do not use an abacus either while others still do?lol
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIiDomlEjJw

The one after the summer solstice will also freak you out and it will be during the hot time of the year. It is not about a minute or an hour. It is not about the theoretical full-moon which may not be even above the horizon. It is about witnessing the optical phenomenon of the scorching full-moon as it slowly rises during the night taking a low path accross the horizon.

That is the problem "will also" is not consistent, undistinguishable, actually confusing.
In addition, full moons "will also" occur during the day, as this year
http//www.almanac.com/astronomy/moon/full/index.php
June 7 212 P.M.
July 7 522 A.M.

No. This actually destroys your argument. Had it been a continuous time then the god would have said 4 1/3 "shahr" instead of 4 shahr and 10 days.

What God would have said (according to you) is a disastrous statement. Stay with what God said in Quran.

Moreover, it is a fact that cresents are used as timing devices (2189) and the 10 days after the full-moon is the time it takes the moon to descend in stages until it becomes a crescent (3639). So here for the 10 days, the crescent can be used to time them. Otherwise, it is impossible for the crescent to time any 10 day period, whether "hajj" (which is 10 days) or the waiting period in 2234.

Impossible is this if last full moon event occurs in daytime ? there is ?a break? in the wait until the next dawn event, woman is technically free to cheat due to loophole in time.

Using cycles, start whatever day/time, wait 4 shahr + 10 (why word day/s is not used in verse?)

You are then inventing your own meaning since this is not a meaning that is supported by Classical Arabic dictionaries.

Arabic dictionaries are not Quran, if so tell us the meaning of kalala in 412/4176

1220 And they bought him with a unjust price, numbered silver coins

100 silver dimes, 40 silver quarters, 10 silver dollars ? numbered is relative.

Waothkuroo Allaha fee ayyamin maAAdoodatin
2203 And remember God in days numbered

waothkuroo Allaha katheeran laAAallakum tuflihoona
6210 and remember God much perhaps you succeed/win.

You see, you cannot catch Quran in a contradiction using few/little.

Making up the days already covers it. Your understanding makes completing the term redundant.

See 1854 and remember Leoxyz ? lol
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15275.msg146166#msg146166

The Reminder
5417 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
5422 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
5432 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin
5440 Walaqad yassarna alqurana lilththikri fahal min muddakirin

The full moon illusion freaked you out so it is definitely a strong argument

Again, wrong full moon, it would also freak out people to start fasting on the wrong time like last year...

http//science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2008/images/moonillusion/Kasaitis1_strip.jpg

On Wednesday night, June 18th, step outside at sunset and look around. You'll see a giant form rising in the east. At first glance it looks like the full Moon. It has craters and seas and the face of a man, but this "moon" is strangely inflated. It's huge!

You've just experienced the Moon Illusion.

Peace

ayman

Peace Pseudo,

This is why you will always get 12 full moons in one year = 11 cycles.
lunar month x 11 = 324.83649 days
I'll have to rethink this whole thing, especially why 8 hajj is used not years.
http//islamawakened.org/Quran/28/27/
Only for future reference...
New Moon Cycle
http//eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/phase/phases2001.html
Solstices June 21 1806
1 Jul 14 1204
2 Aug 12 2303
3 Sep 11 1244
4 Oct 11 0501
5 Nov 9 2303
6 Dec 9 1740
7 Jan 8 1137
8 Feb 7 0344
9 Mar 7 1714
10 Apr 6 0355
11 May 5 1218
12 June 3 1923 (short)

Exactly 12 new moon EVENTS but only 11 CYCLES (i.e., you will be short when using cycles). Notice how when you count the event of the new moon as opposed to the cycle, it is impossible to get 11 and you will ALWAYS get 12 or 13 (out of which you count 12 as per 936) and this will automatically adjust the seasons. On the other hand, if you count cycles then most of the time you will only get 11 cycles in a year thereby violating 936. This is why we must count the EVENT and NOT the CYCLE. This is the ONLY way to use the moon. Now whether the event is the new moon or the full moon, this is another subject but at least you can now see that counting cycles is definitely wrong as one can see by actually trying to apply it to reality.

Solstice June 21 0545
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.php
1 06/22/2009 1935 UT
2 07/22/2009
3 08/20/2009
4 09/18/2009
5 10/18/2009
6 11/16/2009
7 12/16/2009
8 01/15/2010
9 02/14/2010
10 03/15/2010
11 04/14/2010
12 05/14/2010
00 06/12/2010 to Solstice June 21 1128
1 07/11/2010

Now you get it. Notice that by ALWAYS counting 12 events as opposed to the cycle, you are automatically and effortlessly adjusting the moon cycle with the seasons. You are doing this naturally and simply without having to resort to corrupt religious authorities to tell you when to intercalate (which was the main problem of the Jewish calendar).

Now the only remaining issue is whether it is the full moon or the new moon event that we are to count. I have already presented all the evidence for the full moon, including the indisputable fact that the word "shahr" itself means "full-moon". You also admitted that new moon is never specifically mentioned in the great reading but the cycle is mentioned (of which both new moon and full moon would be part). So I think that the evidence tilts very heavily towards full moon but I guess if you are still insisting on new moon that we will have to agree to disagree and leave it to the reader to decide.

Peace,

Ayman

Samia

Peace Ayman,

In 2234 waiting period is clearly stated to be four shahr and 10. But how do we know that hajj is to last 10 days?

According to Lisanul Arab the moon is called hilal during the two days after the appearance of the new moon and the two days before the appearance of the new moon. The other days it is called qamar including the full moon. So according to the classical dictionaries the time from full moon to hilal is more than 10 days.

The information for hilal is given under the root word(&#1604
And in 2.234 why God did not say 4 shahr and one hilal; if it is a fact that ahilla are used as timing devices? Is Ahilla is the plural of hilal really?

Lane?s Lexicon under the root word (&#1604 says
Hum ahlu ahlatin ( &#1613 and (&#1613 means They are people of the distinguished sort.

(&#1612 Ahliyatun means The quality of having a right, or just title, to a thing; worthiness, or desert meetness, or feetness; the state or quality, of meetness, or feetness, (of a person) for the bindingness of the rights which the law imposes for one upon him.

Does ahilla in 2189 have any relation with the meanings mentioned in Lane?s Lexicon?

The root for hilaal is Haa Laam Laam not Alif Haa Laam . The initial alif is not original but is the alif of the plural. Also, the plural is (Ahil-la) not (Ahila).
Classical dictionaries are not consistent with this "two-day" theory. Some say three (al-Sahhah fil-lugha), others say up to seven (al-Muheet), so we can't take them as authority in this matter.

ayman

Peace Samia,

The root for hilaal is Haa Laam Laam not Alif Haa Laam . The initial alif is not original but is the alif of the plural. Also, the plural is (Ahil-la) not (Ahila).
Classical dictionaries are not consistent with this "two-day" theory. Some say three (al-Sahhah fil-lugha), others say up to seven (al-Muheet), so we can't take them as authority in this matter.

Thank you for further clarifying this point.

Thanks,

Ayman

truthseeker11

Peace everyone,

Tlepsh makes an interesting point in the following thread

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597952.0

It seems that the interim for widows would be fourteen full moons !!!!

blueguest605

Peace,brother Ayman..

I completed the reading of your article 10 times ! )

It never occurred to anyone what the real meaning of the word "Shahr" means,and there`s nothing better-and beautiful- than a clear "monshaher" moon-a front door- to mark it!

Thank you for your genius and inspiring inputs.God bless.

I have a single question,
Is fighting restricted in the restricted months? according to 95 there`s a truce of some kind.
And If Ramadhan occurs at the first full moon after summer solstice,then that would mean that the four restricted months which fighting is restricted,are simultaneously June,July,August and September,"harr" times ,and that is a contradiction to 981 where "istinfar" was to be carried on in "harr",or did I get it wrong?

ayman

Peace sister Sa'adah,

I completed the reading of your article 10 times ! )
It never occurred to anyone what the real meaning of the word "Shahr" means,and there`s nothing better-and beautiful- than a clear "monshaher" moon-a front door- to mark it!
Thank you for your genius and inspiring inputs.God bless.

All thanks is due to the god. It is only with his guidance that we can get closer to the truth.

I have a single question,
Is fighting restricted in the restricted months?

No, fighting is not restricted as per the clear answer in 2217. The ONLY thing that is restricted is hunting.

according to 95 there`s a truce of some kind.

The truce has nothing to do with the god or the message as per 91.

And If Ramadhan occurs at the first full moon after summer solstice,then that would mean that the four restricted months which fighting is restricted,are simultaneously June,July,August and September,"harr" times ,and that is a contradiction to 981 where "istinfar" was to be carried on in "harr",or did I get it wrong?

There is no contradiction because fighting is allowed as it is always allowed in self defense. 981 taken with 986, which talks about a chapter descending, actually confirms that the great reading descended during a hot time of the year. If we read Chapter 9 then we can see that lots of things happened between 95 and 981 and the events described in 981 must have happened in the next year's restricted full moons.

Peace,

Ayman

blueguest605

Peace,Ayman..

Thank you for the clarification,2217 had lightened my chest!

But still I have difficulty understanding 95 ,and its relation to the restricted months.

Could you lend me some help? )

Oh,I also searched for the red and orange moon,the moon is orange after the summer solstice,but it could be orange at many times of the year, but no one can argue that definition of "manazel" describes well a "descending" moon!its true that "descending" will take place only until the moon is a thinning crescent and then well be ascending again to the next full one,but its a good marker to point which point shall be a start.. The moon of the summer solstice is at its lowest point,compared to the sun at its highest point,this IS a special phenomenon.. Thank you for this invitation to look around and ponder in Gods creation..

blueguest605

Peace,everyone..

"Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters."

Who are addressed here.and why is it four months?
What is the relationship between the restricted months and fighting in this following verse
"So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful."

Peace,

brook

Peace,everyone..

"Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters."

Who are addressed here.and why is it four months?
What is the relationship between the restricted months and fighting in this following verse
"So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold the communion, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful."

Peace,

My opinion

The idolaters of Makkah are addressed here. They had started the war of religions by exiling the messenger of Islam (940) from his home in Makkah and kept it up by continuously attacking the Muslim State in Yathrib (3313).

Why four months? They are the months of restrictions (ash'hurun hurum) mentioned in 936. Form the words "They will ask thee about fighting in the months of restrictions" in 2217 I understand that the Arabs traditionally refrained form fighting in them.

I will continue to explain what I understand from 95 later, God willing, if what I am saying is making sense to the people in this forum.

Peace,
Hasan Ak?ay

Pseudo

Peace Ayman,

On the other hand, if you count cycles then most of the time you will only get 11 cycles in a year thereby violating 936. This is why we must count the EVENT and NOT the CYCLE. This is the ONLY way to use the moon.

936 That alshshuhoori count at God 12 in God's scripture, the day He created the skies/space and the earth.

Alright then let's start at the beginning of creation day 0

fullmoon days Years
1 0 0 start assuming full moon lol
2 29.53059
3 59.06118
4_ 88.59177
5___ 118.12236
6___ 147.65295
7___ 177.18354
8___ 206.71413
9___ 236.24472
10__ 265.77531
11__ 295.3059
12__ 324.83649
00__ 354.36708 skip full moon
365.242199 1 solstice Happy New Year!
1 383.89767 ramadan
2___ 413.42826
3___ 442.95885
4___ 472.48944
5___ 502.02003
6___ 531.55062
7___ 561.08121
8___ 590.6118
9___ 620.14239
10__ 649.67298
11__ 679.20357
12__ 708.73416
730.484398 2
1 738.26475 ramadan
2___ 767.79534
3___ 797.32593
4___ 826.85652
5___ 856.38711
6___ 885.9177
7___ 915.44829
8___ 944.97888
9___ 974.50947
10__ 1004.04006
11__ 1033.57065
12__ 1063.10124
00__ 1092.63183 skip full moon
1095.726597 3
1 1122.16242 ramadan
2___ 1151.69301
3___ 1181.2236
4___ 1210.75419
5___ 1240.28478
6___ 1269.81537
7___ 1299.34596
8___ 1328.87655
9___ 1358.40714
10__ 1387.93773
11__ 1417.46832
12__ 1446.99891
1460.968796 4
1 1476.5295 ramadan
2___ 1506.06009
3___ 1535.59068
4___ 1565.12127
5___ 1594.65186
6___ 1624.18245
7___ 1653.71304
8___ 1683.24363
9___ 1712.77422
10__ 1742.30481
11__ 1771.8354
12__ 1801.36599
1826.210995 5
1 1830.89658 ramadan
2___ 1860.42717
3___ 1889.95776
4___ 1919.48835
5___ 1949.01894
6___ 1978.54953
7___ 2008.08012
8___ 2037.61071
9___ 2067.1413
10__ 2096.67189
11__ 2126.20248
12__ 2155.73307
00__ 2185.26366 skip full moon
2191.453194 6
1 2214.79425 ramadan
2___ 2244.32484
3___ 2273.85543
4___ 2303.38602
5___ 2332.91661
6___ 2362.4472
7___ 2391.97779
8___ 2421.50838
9___ 2451.03897
10__ 2480.56956
11__ 2510.10015
12__ 2539.63074
2556.695393 7
1 2569.16133 ramadan
2___ 2598.69192
3___ 2628.22251
4___ 2657.7531
5___ 2687.28369
6___ 2716.81428
7___ 2746.34487
8___ 2775.87546
9___ 2805.40605
10__ 2834.93664
11__ 2864.46723
12__ 2893.99782
2921.937592 8
1 2923.52841 ramadan
2___ 2953.059
3___ 2982.58959
4___ 3012.12018
5___ 3041.65077
6___ 3071.18136
7___ 3100.71195
8___ 3130.24254
9___ 3159.77313
10__ 3189.30372
11__ 3218.83431
12__ 3248.3649
00__ 3277.89549 skip full moon
3287.179791 9
1 3307.42608 ramadan
2___ 3336.95667
3___ 3366.48726
4___ 3396.01785
5___ 3425.54844
6___ 3455.07903
7___ 3484.60962
8___ 3514.14021
9___ 3543.6708
10__ 3573.20139
11__ 3602.73198
12__ 3632.26257
3652.42199 10
1 3661.79316 ramadan
2___ 3691.32375
3___ 3720.85434
4___ 3750.38493
5___ 3779.91552
6___ 3809.44611
7___ 3838.9767
8___ 3868.50729
9___ 3898.03788
10__ 3927.56847
11__ 3957.09906
12__ 3986.62965
00__ 4016.16024 skip full moon 1 day before solstice, huge illusion
4017.664189 ___11

Something is missing, probably obvious, and skipping full moons or calling it no name doesn't seem right.

Also puzzling is also why 8 hijajin is used and not years???

2827 He said "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for) eight hijajin, so if you completed ten, so (it) is from at you, and I do not want that I make hardship/difficulty on you, you will find me, if God willed/wanted from the correct/righteous."

Does hajj have to be every year? Does it say 12 shahr in a solar year?

This full moon business, blind not fasting, missing the moon illusion or full moon altogether, skipping 5 in the first 11 years, different wait times for same offense etc., too many issues.

Peace

Tlepsh

Peace Ayman,

Also puzzling is also why 8 hijajin is used and not years???

2827 He said "That I, I want , that I marry you to one (of) my two daughters, those two, on that you hire to me (yourself for) eight hijajin, so if you completed ten, so (it) is from at you, and I do not want that I make hardship/difficulty on you, you will find me, if God willed/wanted from the correct/righteous."

Does hajj have to be every year? Does it say 12 shahr in a solar year?

Peace

Peace All,

( &#1613 Eight hijaj

Does ( &#1613 means eight yearly festivals/gatherings or overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences eight times? Does God mentions yearly festivals/gatherings in his book?

If it was eight years why not mentioned to be ?tamani seenin? or ?tamaniata a3wam?

ayman

Peace Tlepsh,

( &#1613 Eight hijaj
Does ( &#1613 means eight yearly festivals/gatherings or overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences eight times? Does God mentions yearly festivals/gatherings in his book?
If it was eight years why not mentioned to be ?tamani seenin? or ?tamaniata a3wam?

I agree that it wasn't 8 years. It was 8 feasts. These could at the soonest happen over 2 years (4 feasts per year). Since Moses was hired to be a helper and water and tend for sheep and not hired as somekind of a lawyer then this actually confirms the meaning of "hajj" as feast and not as anything having to do with "overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences".

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Sa'adah,

But still I have difficulty understanding 95 ,and its relation to the restricted months.

I think that reading from 91-5, it seems that there was a treaty to not fight during the restriction period. This treaty had nothing to do with the god who didn't prohibit fighting at any special time according to 2217. So the treaty expired when the restriction period expired and that's when fighting could resume. The fighting and many events happened until the restriction period came around again in 981-86.

Oh,I also searched for the red and orange moon,the moon is orange after the summer solstice,but it could be orange at many times of the year, but no one can argue that definition of "manazel" describes well a "descending" moon!its true that "descending" will take place only until the moon is a thinning crescent and then well be ascending again to the next full one,but its a good marker to point which point shall be a start.. The moon of the summer solstice is at its lowest point,compared to the sun at its highest point,this IS a special phenomenon.. Thank you for this invitation to look around and ponder in Gods creation..

Exactly, it is because the full-moon arouns the solstice is at its lowest point and takes the lowest path accross the horizon that it appears more vivid red and stays red longer than any other full-moon. The full-moon right after the solstice in addition to the red color also has the association with heat so it fits best the meaning of "ramadhan".

Peace,

Ayman

Tlepsh

Peace Tlepsh,

I agree that it wasn't 8 years. It was 8 feasts. These could at the soonest happen over 2 years (4 feasts per year). Since Moses was hired to be a helper and water and tend for sheep and not hired as somekind of a lawyer then this actually confirms the meaning of "hajj" as feast and not as anything having to do with "overcoming of one another person in argument by evidences".

Peace,

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

?3id? (&#1583 or (&#1583 An occurrence that befalls, or betides one, or that happens to one; a festival, a periodical festival; a feast day (&#1605 so called because it returns every year with renewed joy or from (&#1583 because people return to it.; or from (&#1577 ?a custom? because they are accustomed to it.
The word ?3id? is used in Quran in 5.114. to mean feast.

On the other hand almost all over the quran ?hajj? and its derivatives are used to mean ?argue and dispute?

Then why not mentioned to be ?eight a3yad?

ayman

Peace Tlepsh,

?3id? (&#1583 or (&#1583 An occurrence that befalls, or betides one, or that happens to one; a festival, a periodical festival; a feast day (&#1605 so called because it returns every year with renewed joy or from (&#1583 because people return to it.; or from (&#1577 ?a custom? because they are accustomed to it.
The word ?3id? is used in Quran in 5.114. to mean feast.
On the other hand almost all over the quran ?hajj? and its derivatives are used to mean ?argue and dispute?
Then why not mentioned to be ?eight a3yad?

Not long ago, I used to think that "hajj" means "debate" too. However, in reality when we read the purpose of the "hajj" in 2228 we see that it is to witness benefits and to remember the name of the god on what he gave us from the livestock. We are told to eat from it and feed the poor. In fact, if we carefully read the whole passage from 2227-37, we can realize that 90% of it is about the livestock. So this is about eating and feeding others the livestock's meat. What do we call that? This is a feast.

Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. On the other hand, none of the people of the book came from all over to "overcome of one another person in argument by evidences" and certainly Moses wasn't hired to so this but he was hired to water and tend sheep!

Unless you want to suggest that "hajj" is an entirely new concept that didn't start with Abraham then please see how the people of the book understood it

From http//www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact

Haggai => feast
Haggiah => the Lord's feast
Haggith => rejoicing