Intercourse: Allowed During Fasting!
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I understand bro, but I will warn you against relying on "reason" to understand religion, especially religious rituals... They are by definition, irrational things, and faith itself transcends logic. You can not decypher these things via reason. I used to believe, like you, that you can apply reason to religion... but I have recently proven to myself that you can not.
If you want me to recommend some philosophic literature that proves this, I will be happy to.
Salaam
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You rely on anything except believing your higher faculties. What is your take on the following?
25 73
Those who, when they are given the revelations of their God, they fall not there at as if they were deaf or blind;
47 24
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?Brother I take your advice if your answer to the above does not let you down.
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47 24
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?God has answered this question in the very beginning of the Quran Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering...
There are many places in the Quran in which God makes clear to us that guidance is not up to us (i.e. can not be arrived at by man's own cognitive capacity). We can not discover "truth" by ourselves, unless we are allowed to by God. Because any such notion of an objective "truth" will be, by definition, transcendent. And transcendent concepts are by definition, beyond human cognitive capacities, i.e. we can not rationalize them.
Allah guides whomever He wills. And He leaves in error whom He wills. This is why the Quran always speaks only to the believers. They are its only audience.
Salaam
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God has answered this question in the very beginning of the Quran
There are many places in the Quran in which God makes clear to us that guidance is not up to us (i.e. can not be arrived at by man's own cognitive capacity). We can not discover "truth" by ourselves, unless we are allowed to by God. Because any such notion of an objective "truth" will be, by definition, transcendent. And transcendent concepts are by definition, beyond human cognitive capacities, i.e. we can not rationalize them.
Salaam
Brother, you had not said anything about 25 73. I am awaiting eagerly for your reply so that I do not see in you any contradiction in understanding, which clarity in you then shall pave way for me to follow you. And with regard to your 27, before you jump on it there are verses from 2 1 to 2 6 wherein the criteria has been well founded for your conclusion as to who a believer is and who a rejecter is!
Next,
Allah guides whomever He wills. And He leaves in error whom He wills. This is why the Quran always speaks only to the believers. They are its only audience.
13 27 Lo! Allah sendeth whom He will astray, and guideth unto Himself all who turn unto Him.
Here I quote your verse Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering... Now please appropriate this verse with the verse above and give me your guidance. Will not Allah Guide me if I turn unto Him for all my needs? If this is my case, then am I right in being given the light by Allah? And Guided by Allah? Will it not satisfy Allah as I strive to see sense in His ayats and verify that every ayat is rational and thus are from Allah?What do you have to say against these? I welcome your Dawa.
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Brother you are missing the point. There are two separate issues here
#1 The fact is that if God is omnipotent and omnipresent (which He is) then your act (of seeking guidance) is itself not your own. Because you can not take credit for any guidance you have, or any guidance you get.
Once we understand this, only then can we understand the verses which you quoted here
25 73
Those who, when they are given the revelations of their God, they fall not there at as if they were deaf or blind;
47 24
Will they then not meditate on the Qur'an, or are there locks on the hearts?#2 These verses do not say that just because you have applied your own reason and understanding to the Quran you have (necessarily) come to the right interpretations. These verses do NOT guarantee perfect guidance to anyone and everyone who applies their reason to them. Because everyone is guided AND misguided by God. And those who are led astray by God, are led astray through the their cognitive faculties as well. Remember the verses in the Quran which talk about how those who are hypocrites are led ASTRAY by the verses of the Quran? And when they read them, their enmity increases? This is why I was cautioning you in placing too much faith in your own interpretations if they conflict and contradict established practices, as you have no guarantees that you are right. And it is better to be safe then sorry, right?
Lastly bro, I would like to make clear to you that I am not really doing "dawa" here. I am not asking you to "follow" me either. Because I am not presenting anything new to you. I am just explaining to you some basic concepts that are well known. And Allah knows best.
PeAcE
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Because everyone is guided AND misguided by God. And those who are led astray by God, are led astray through the their cognitive faculties as well. Remember the verses in the Quran which talk about how those who are hypocrites are led ASTRAY by the verses of the Quran? And when they read them, their enmity increases? This is why I was cautioning you in placing too much faith in your own interpretations if they conflict and contradict established practices, as you have no guarantees that you are right. And it is better to be safe then sorry, right?
The red part is also the part of what people call "established practices". What is the guarantee that the "established practices" are true? All the pagans put forward this as strong argument, should they be considered as innocent? Satan also asserted that Allah misguided him.
By giving example He lets (exposes) many astraying and with it guides many;since He does not let by it anyone remain neglectful/astraying, except the "Fasiqeen";
Fasiq is a one who is already a deviant, astray.
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Brother you are missing the point. There are two separate issues here
#1 The fact is that if God is omnipotent and omnipresent (which He is) then your act (of seeking guidance) is itself not your own. Because you can not take credit for any guidance you have, or any guidance you get.
Once we understand this, only then can we understand the verses which you quoted here
Brother is it true I missed my point as well as your point when I have not claimed credit over anything or boasted of anything to add to my credit? If no, in that case, is your above reply essential? Or are you prejudiced? Just I am trying to correct if you had misjudged any point of discussion in the course of this thread.
#2 These verses do not say that just because you have applied your own reason and understanding to the Quran you have (necessarily) come to the right interpretations. These verses do NOT guarantee perfect guidance to anyone and everyone who applies their reason to them.
Doesn't the first part of your above sentence fall squarely on the second part of your reply in the red and bold?
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Mazhar + drFazl
Salaam brothers
@ Mazhar
What is the guarantee that the "established practices" are true?
None whatsoever. You just have to weigh the evidence of each argument and see what holds more weight.
Satan also asserted that Allah misguided him.
Satan said that God had judged him as erring, could also mean that He caused him to remain disappointed.
Fasiq is a one who is already a deviant, astray.
As was Satan, as he was created with a defect, as all men are created imperfect. Only God is perfect, this is why we are ultimately dependent on Divine mercy. Because no one (not even the Prophets) can earn their way into heaven just with good deeds. Good deeds are finite, and paradise is infinite. You can never "earn" something infinite via the finite.
@ drFazl
Brother is it true I missed my point as well as your point when I have not claimed credit over anything or boasted of anything to add to my credit? If no, in that case, is your above reply essential? Or are you prejudiced? Just I am trying to correct if you had misjudged any point of discussion in the course of this thread.
Of course I am prejudiced. Everyone is prejudiced. No one is "objective".
Doesn't the first part of your above sentence fall squarely on the second part of your reply in the red and bold?
The part in red is not my own interpretation. But a clarification on the direct result of an existence controlled by an Omnipresent and Omnipotent God, who controls both guidance and misguidance. The point being when you interpret a passage in the Quran about intercourse during Ramadan, and your interpretation contradicts the established interpretation, you must have a very strong argument in support of your views (and not rely on semantics alone).
You make a lot of unfounded assertions in your argument, for example you say that abstinence is a negative action because it fuels impurity in the mind. And you base an entire argument on such assumptions. When at the end of the day such arguments are very weak. Because the whole point of maintaining abstinence (not just from intercourse but from all other earthly desires) is to fortify one's capabilities of patience. And patience is something which can only be earned through deprivation. It can never be willed into existence, because it is an experiential quality. You can never learn to ride a bike by reading a book on riding bikes. You have to actually ride a real bike in order to learn this activity. The same is the issue with patience. Abstinence teaches one to control one's passions and this increases one's patience. This is the reason why intercourse is not allowed while one is fasting.
Your entire argument is based on semantics (when you refuse to acknowledge the prohibition in the verse provided, when it is clearly outlining the time during Ramadan when intercourse is allowed i.e. the night) and at the same time you are applying your own reason in order to justify your argument, which can easily be countered by an equally valid opposing argument.
PeAcE
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Of course I am prejudiced. Everyone is prejudiced. No one is "objective".
Brother, I note this point in red and assert this prejudice had been your prime factor in all your communications thus far and shall be in your future posts. But interestingly you only believe in the prejudices as established notion by the general public i.e., the objectivity of ritual in the majority factor. Allah says not to follow the majority but follow what is clear to you, from Him. If you would you have a second look at what you have posted, here it is.
... and your interpretation contradicts the established interpretation, you must have a very strong argument in support of your views (and not rely on semantics alone).
From your own view point, all interpretations are prejudiced. But in your above statement you seem to believe whole heartedly all the established prejudices i.e., interpretations. Why in you is there such confused taking?
When it comes to reasoning it is only a sense of application of mind that is essential; the verses are for pondering and getting clear revelation by the leave of Allah - this is following Allah. This is the first part of often and repeatedly recited verse in the Quran - Follow Allah and Follow the Rasul, thus you will find no contradiction between Allah and Rasul. But without following Allah there is no way that you can follow rasul or the quran. Allah further commands us not to follow the majority notions however established the rituals are, never follow the ways upon which you found your forefathers or the majority of people around you. They follow the conjecture; and they are a people who follow the stories and his-tories.
From Quran what we know is that Allah admits exchange of views and forbids arguments - but you say I must bring 'strong' and worse still 'very strong' arguments! If I go the way you want me to go, then is it not that I go astray? Then you talk about semantic views. Semantic is the strong reliability on the conviction that we arrive at after careful examination and observation of the Truth which is subjective and transcending. Your view is otherwise. I need you to clarify on this! Do not you believe in the transcending Truth? The Truth is always subjective and the Quran is purely subjective and it is to be understood only in such way. Your views in this regard is also welcome to be exchanged.
#2 These verses do not say that just because you have applied your own reason and understanding to the Quran you have (necessarily) come to the right interpretations. These verses do NOT guarantee perfect guidance to anyone and everyone who applies their reason to them.
The part in red is not my own interpretation. But a clarification on the direct result of an existence controlled by an Omnipresent and Omnipotent God, who controls both guidance and misguidance. The point being when you interpret a passage in the Quran about intercourse during Ramadan,
Brother, I need your objectivity with regard to 'omni'-presence and potency of God in clear expression. And God controls both guidance and misguidance. How God misguides. And He is whimsical. Such ideas are mocking at God. Yet it seems well founded and well established notion perfectly fitting your conscience. I stop at this, awaiting you with eagerness.
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Salaam brothers
As was Satan, as he was created with a defect, as all men are created imperfect. Only God is perfect, this is why we are ultimately dependent on Divine mercy. Because no one (not even the Prophets) can earn their way into heaven just with good deeds. Good deeds are finite, and paradise is infinite. You can never "earn" something infinite via the finite.
Your soul i.e., the Ruh that Allah breathed in you is finite. And your mind is perfectly created to assess between the Truth and the falsehood; and between the good and the bad; and between the justice and the injustice. And the Ruh, the Furqaan is the criterion that differentiates between them and admonishes and give the glad tidings according to the leave of Allah. Allah says he created you and perfected you. You say contrary to Quran. Can you for my verification say that man was created imperfectly? He is weak; but not imperfect! He is hasty; but not without the ability to maintain patience! He falters; but he is not created without the criterion! He is inclined to follow evil; but not left out without His Protection. In short Allah is with Him if one keeps himself protected in a shape Allah had perfected him. If only he follows Allah and stay away from the hearsay his perfection is in no way shall be truncated. And further Allah says He has not wronged any one! But you say Allah's creation of man itself is wrong and imperfect. And also you misjudge Allah when you say He guides and misguides because He is Whimsical. I do not see Whimsical as among His Attributes or as one of His Most Beautiful Names.
Peace
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As was Satan, as he was created with a defect, as all men are created imperfect. Only God is perfect, this is why we are ultimately dependent on Divine mercy. Because no one (not even the Prophets) can earn their way into heaven just with good deeds. Good deeds are finite, and paradise is infinite. You can never "earn" something infinite via the finite.
This statement falls in the category,
Everything is created with sublime perfection. Paradise is created and is meant as abode for ORDINARY people who believed in Allah and His Messengers.
Red, it is a bussiness deal,
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drFazl + Mazhar
Salaam all
@ drFazl
Brother, I note this point in red and assert this prejudice had been your prime factor in all your communications thus far and shall be in your future posts. But interestingly you only believe in the prejudices as established notion by the general public i.e., the objectivity of ritual in the majority factor. Allah says not to follow the majority but follow what is clear to you, from Him. If you would you have a second look at what you have posted, here it is.
But you forget that just because your view does not follow the majority, does not make it objective. You have your own prejuduices, just like everyone else. And as for my own beliefs, very few of them are in line with majority opinion, I assure you.
From your own view point, all interpretations are prejudiced. But in your above statement you seem to believe whole heartedly all the established prejudices i.e., interpretations.
That is wrong, I do not believe "all" the established truisms. But in this case, your argument challenging the established interpretation does not carry much weight. That is why it is drawing criticism, not because it is just outside the norm.
From Quran what we know is that Allah admits exchange of views and forbids arguments - but you say I must bring 'strong' and worse still 'very strong' arguments!
If my wording displeased you, then I will just reword it I ask that you to prove your points with valid reasoning and historical precedence.
Semantic is the strong reliability on the conviction that we arrive at after careful examination and observation of the Truth which is subjective and transcending.
Major contradiction if the truth is trancending, then it can not be subjective. And "objectivity" exists only for God, as He determines truth and separates it from falsehood.
The Truth is always subjective and the Quran is purely subjective and it is to be understood only in such way. Your views in this regard is also welcome to be exchanged.
The Quran is objective because it is the word of God. But its understanding is subjective, but that does not mean that the Quran's truth is subjective as well. What this means is No 2 ways can be equally "right" if they contradict. There will always be one way which is more "right" then another. Because even though human understanding is subjective (i.e. flawed), truth is not.
Brother, I need your objectivity with regard to 'omni'-presence and potency of God in clear expression. And God controls both guidance and misguidance. How God misguides. And He is whimsical. Such ideas are mocking at God. Yet it seems well founded and well established notion perfectly fitting your conscience. I stop at this, awaiting you with eagerness.
Theodicy (the problem of evil) is only a problem for Catholics and Protestants, not for Muslims. The difference between us and them are
#1 We believe in an absolutley Trancending Deity (unlike Catholics)
#2 We do not believe in eternal damnation (unlike Protestants)But we do believe in predestination (i.e. fate).
Taken together this means that in Islam, according to the Quran, even though God created evil, "evil" is just a tool used to bring about good. As the ultimate good must be brought about because God Himself is absolutley Good. This is why we can dismiss "free will" without creating a problem of evil. Because for us, hell is not forever, and any evil which exists is only temporarily used by God to bring about an ultimate good.
I hope this clarifies things.
@ Mazhar
it is a bussiness deal,
It becomes a "deal" because God is merciful, not because He is a merchant. He allows us to exchange something finite for something infinite, because of His infinite mercy. What it does not show however is that we can earn something infinite through something finite... that makes no sense mathematically or logically.
PeAcE
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Because for us, hell is not forever, and any evil which exists is only temporarily used by God to bring about an ultimate good.
This is exactly what the Jews proclaim. Where is it written that anyone who goes into hell, that is not his abode for ever. It is nothing but self deception.
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But you forget that just because your view does not follow the majority, does not make it objective. You have your own prejuduices, just like everyone else. And as for my own beliefs, very few of them are in line with majority opinion, I assure you.
Brother, you had not said anything of your own belief until now but airing out the belief that objectively existed among the masses which belief got disseminated almost into extinction. Thus a single muslim community has been dispersed into followers of splinter groups sniping at each other. And you are giving assurance for others that very few follow the majority. When you consider object as prime source of belief, you shall see only what is visible outwardly for there is nothing to believe unless you have the inclination to see beyond and observe and get at the insight hidden. If you were to be in this path you shall say a view well acceptable, without the taint of a group's belief. I will hear from you and hope to hear soon an insight distinctly edging towards the Truth.
Peace
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Me From your own view point, all interpretations are prejudiced. But in your above statement you seem to believe whole heartedly all the established prejudices i.e., interpretations.
You That is wrong, I do not believe "all" the established truisms. But in this case, your argument challenging the established interpretation does not carry much weight. That is why it is drawing criticism, not because it is just outside the norm.
Brother, truism need not be established for it is the evidence by itself. Only falsehood needs to be objectively established which in reality is already abolished or in the process of self-destruction. Again you say I argue, when there is no counter to what I had reasoned out by way of reasoning. Whatever I had written just stays as a opinion as of now. I will go for expressions rather than arguing. And you say I am challenging 'established interpretation'. If there is any Truth in it, it need not be established. Because there is no truth in what was flamboyantly established by the majority, the usages and the words are falling short of clarity and expression while trying to deny an opinion in the Straight Path.
Me From Quran what we know is that Allah admits exchange of views and forbids arguments - but you say I must bring 'strong' and worse still 'very strong' arguments!
You If my wording displeased you, then I will just reword it I ask that you to prove your points with valid reasoning and historical precedence.
It is not the question if I am displeased - I had just admonished Allah does not like arguments! If at all you are forced to defend Quran against the rejecters, then argue with the verses with strength in wisdom and knowledge from Allah. Then you had asked me to prove my points with valid reasoning and historical precedence.
Historical precedence is not the criterion for reasoning; and they shall never go hand in hand. Following historical precedence is following the habitual of forefathers. You become a follower of tradition and ritual; and there is very little room for reasoning and reasonable following of the Great Way, the Islam!
Peace
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Me Semantic is the strong reliability on the conviction that we arrive at after careful examination and observation of the Truth which is subjective and transcending.
You Major contradiction if the truth is trancending, then it can not be subjective. And "objectivity" exists only for God, as He determines truth and separates it from falsehood. The Quran is objective because it is the word of God. But its understanding is subjective.
Wahy or intuition or the verses of Quran is purely subjective whose Truth will keep unfolding objectively till the D-Day. This objectivity shall have no precedence for future is unique, yet to be born for us. History cannot be taken to the future, for the future is unseen and unknown and one has to be hopeful of the unseen future; if you ponder, hope and belief in the unseen is very very subjective. Objectivity is out of shape here. The Truth is the Straight Path which again is Wisdom i.e., the subjective and intuitional guidance. You cannot see objectively the God Guided Straight Path. Yet again, Allah Himself shall be felt subjectively and you cannot see to believe God, objectively.
Peace
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The Quran is objective because it is the word of God. But its understanding is subjective, but that does not mean that the Quran's truth is subjective as well. What this means is No 2 ways can be equally "right" if they contradict. There will always be one way which is more "right" then another. Because even though human understanding is subjective (i.e. flawed), truth is not.
If Quran is objective, then there is no need for pondering on it; on the other hand Allah says ponder on it for subjective satisfaction and follow the subjective verses with Faith, Patience and Perseverance. The ayats therein are the Signs for the soul searching hearts. You talk about the Truth is object. If so define the Truth in a few sentences without the element of subjective nature in your words of explanations. This shall be a life-time work out for you. Please give the Definition of TRUTH.
We do believe in predestination (i.e. fate).
Predestination is about the future. This creates a sense of fear for Allah, all purely subjective for the Believers. Fear for our sins of yesterday, today and tomorrow. We live for tomorrow not for yesterday. We seek forgiveness and guidance and we hopefully pray and believe Allah putting our Trust in Him that He will forgive us and conduct in the Straight Path of no short comings, tests and distresses. The whole life thus become subjective and it is still ahead of us as future.
Any way please give Definition of Predestination without subjectivity attached to it.
Peace
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